Israel's Future Rescattering & Second Exodus...

[cyberjosh]

I've been reading alot in Ezekiel recently and I've seen a few things which the fiction series Left Behind does not tell you, and that's too bad because it is very interesting. God has promised in the end times to restore Israel from the countries in which they are scattered and bring them to himself to be judged as a nation in the wilderness and those who he approves of (seperating the sheep from the goats - Matthew 25 & Ezekiel 34) he will then allow to enter into the promised land (during the Millenial reign).

Ezekiel 20:

"33"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you.
34"I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out;
35and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face.
36"As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD.
37"I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;
38and I will purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD. "


This is the point where Israel is grafted back in as a nation (Romans 11). But God will purify them with trials (presumably during the Tribulation) and he will scatter them but then (at the end of the tribulation it seems) will gather them again into one place: the wilderness, where he will again enter into judgement with them face to face. Read Revelation 12 where the woman (who represents Israel) goes into the wilderness to see the coorelation). What is really interesting though is that God will repeat history for the Israelites, in perhaps a redo of coming down on Mt. Sinai. I plan to study this further.

But that Israel will be scattered again is certain. Read the following quote:

Even before the children of Israel entered Canaan, God warned through His prophet Moses that He would scatter them "among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other" (Deuteronomy 28:64), if they refused to "obey the voice of the Lord" (verse 62). The scope of Israel's dislocation is clear: Among all people, from one end of the planet to the other.
Much later, the prophet Ezekiel refers to this same warning:
Also I lifted My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the Gentiles and disperse them throughout the countries, because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers' idols. (Ezekiel 20:23-24)
Ezekiel wrote after Assyria had taken Israel captive. His warning words about population dispersion were not for ancient Israelites of the past, those already dispersed, but for the peoples of an Israel yet futureâ€â€the Israel of today.
The prophet Amos speaks of this scattering through the use of the sifting-of-grain metaphor:
"Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the face of the earth; yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob," says the Lord. "For surely I will command, and will sift the house of Israel among all nations, as grain is sifted in a sieve; yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground." (Amos 9:8-9)

Prophecies Not Yet Fulfilled

Clearly, these prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. To date, God has not actually scattered Israel among all nations. Historically, He did not use the Assyrians to scatter Israel so much as He used them to resituate Israel to locales south of the Caspian Sea, in what is now northern Iran. In process of time, God further resituated Israel through a number of migrations into rather localized areas of the earth, such as northern Europe, the British Isles (including Ireland), the North American continent, Australia, and New Zealand. Notice that these areas are isolated from the capitals of the Gentile world.
To this day, God has not yet scattered Israel among the Gentiles en masse, not yet sifted them "among all nations." Today's demographic reality does not look at all like the population distribution of which God speaks in Deuteronomy 28, Ezekiel 20, or Amos 9.
Scattering and Siftingâ€â€When?
This level of scattering is yet to come. A number of scriptures appear to connect this vast displacement of Israelites with Israel's fall and the time of "Jacob's Trouble." For example:
One-third of you shall die of the pestilence, and be consumed with famine in your midst; and one-third shall fall by the sword all around you; and I will scatter another third to all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them. (Ezekiel 5:12)
Does the scattering mentioned here occur before Israel's fall or after? As an approach to that question, it may be instructive to compare Matthew 24 with Ezekiel 5. Note, however, that the order in which the terrible events cataloged in them is not the same. Comparing the number of thens in Matthew 24 with the number of thens in Ezekiel 5 suggests another difference. Matthew wins out, with his ten to Ezekiel's two. As Herbert Armstrong so often pointed out, Matthew 24 is sequentialâ€â€first this, then that, "immediately after" the other.
However, aside from the last clause of Ezekiel 5:12, where it is quite obvious that the sword will follow the third God has scattered "to all the winds," there is no explicit idea of sequence in the Ezekiel passage. Nothing in verse 12 (or in its companion, verse 2) argues for a sequence of events: first pestilence, then famine, then war, then scattering. Even though war is mentioned in this passage after pestilence and famine, the war of which God speaks could causeâ€â€and hence, precedeâ€â€the pestilence and famine. Historically, this is not at all an unusual sequence. War comes first, causing famine.
So, it is possible, even plausible, that some part of the prophesied scattering could take place before the pestilence. It could even take place in a time of relative peace and prosperity.

http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseac ... T/PW/k/692

I need some help working out the difficulties though in tying all the end times prophecies together into a sequence with the tribulation and all from Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah, MAtthew, and Revelation. Could anyone supply any kind of a coherent proposal on sequence of events? I would appreacite it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Here are some more scriptures which speak of God's end-times scattering of Israel:

Deuteronomy 4:27

"The LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD drives you.

Nehemiah 1:8

"Remember the word which You commanded Your servant Moses, saying, 'If you are unfaithful I will scatter you among the peoples;"

Ezekiel 20:23

"Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands, "

Zechariah 7:14

"but I scattered them with a storm wind among all the nations whom they have not known Thus the land is desolated behind them so that no one went back and forth, for they made the pleasant land desolate."

Also here is more commentary on what will happen to Israel and the small amount that will be left after the dispersion (the purging):

What will be Israel's punishment?

Ezekiel and other books in the Bible indicate that God will punish our nations with drought, famine, disease epidemics, and death from war. We will be defeated by our enemies, invaded and conquered, taken captive, and scattered among the nations. The vast majority will die in the famine, disease, warfare, and captivity.

"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them, And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols. And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars. In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished. And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the LORD" (Ezekiel 6:1-7, KJV).

" Thus saith the Lord GOD; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence. He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remaineth and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my fury upon them" (Ezekiel 6:11-12, KJV).

"I will scatter you among the nations, disperse you throughout the countries, and remove your filthiness completely from you" (Ezekiel 22:15).

The prophecies of Ezekiel indicate that one-third of our population will die in famine and disease epidemics, one-third will die in war, and one-third will by taken captive by enemy nations and many will die in captivity. "One-third of you shall die of the pestilence, and be consumed with famine in your midst; and one-third shall fall by the sword all around you; and I will scatter another third to all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them" (Ezekiel 5:12).

How many will be left in the end? According to the book of Amos, perhaps one-tenth will survive. "Hear this word which I take up against you, a lamentation, O house of Israel: The virgin of Israel has fallen; She will rise no more. She lies forsaken on her land; There is no one to raise her up. For thus says the Lord God: 'The city that goes out by a thousand Shall have a hundred left, And that which goes out by a hundred Shall have ten left to the house of Israel' " (Amos 5:1-3). It is not clear to me if this one-tenth refers to the whole population before the deaths caused by famine and war, or only to the third that goes into captivity. If the latter, then only about 3% of our population will survive! No wonder Jesus said this would be the greatest time of trouble ever!

http://www.ptgbook.org/ezekielwarning.htm

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

I've been reading alot in Ezekiel recently and I've seen a few things which the fiction series Left Behind does not tell you, and that's too bad because it is very interesting. God has promised in the end times to restore Israel from the countries in which they are scattered and bring them to himself to be judged as a nation in the wilderness and those who he approves of (seperating the sheep from the goats - Matthew 25 & Ezekiel 34) he will then allow to enter into the promised land (during the Millenial reign).

Very good Josh. Left Behind may not tell you this, but scripture surely does. There are other verses outside of Ezekiel that tell of their gathering and restoration. I will dig them up later if you haven't found them already.

About the second scattering; it happened already. You may not directly find it in scripture, so you must go to history. It happened in 70 A.D., the great Diaspora. That would be the post-Roman Diaspora.

 

[Vic C.]

Here's a few verses that may apply:

Neh 1:9 But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.

Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isa 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Jer 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Ezek 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Ezek 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

Ezek 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.

Ezek 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Ezek 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Ezek 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

I'll stop there, with the "remnant" verse.

 

[cyberjosh]

Very good Josh. Left Behind may not tell you this, but scripture surely does. There are other verses outside of Ezekiel that tell of their gathering and restoration. I will dig them up later if you haven't found them already.

About the second scattering; it happened already. You may not directly find it in scripture, so you must go to history. It happened in 70 A.D., the great Diaspora. That would be the post-Roman Diaspora.

Thank you for your input Vic. However I already thought of the 70 A.D. theory but it doesn't stand under scrutiny because then you would have to also say that the promised gathering back to the promised land already happened (in 1948) when Israel became a nation again, while the gathering spoken of in Ezekiel (see below) is clearly an eschatalogical event - as is the yet future diaspora of the Jews. As I wrote in the OP it may be that this diaspora will happen during the Tribulation, and the regathering to the wilderness will probably happen at the end of the Tribulation.

Now here is the verse from Ezekiel again:

Ezekiel 20
34"I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out;
35and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face.
36"As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD.
37"I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;
38and I will purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel. Thus you will know that I am the LORD. "

The final regathering will result in an immdiate grouping together in the wilderness where God will meet with them face to face and regraft them into the covenant (Romans 11) and then purge the rebels out so that only the righteous can enter the promised Land. None of this occured prior to the reentry into Israel in 1948 so this is still a yet future event. Not many people have ever heard of this.

Tell me your thoughts.

P.S. Thanks for the verses. I'll look over them.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Thank you for your input Vic. However I already thought of the 70 A.D. theory but it doesn't stand under scrutiny because then you would have to also say that the promised gathering back to the promised land already happened (in 1948) when Israel became a nation again, while the gathering spoken of in Ezekiel (see below) is clearly an eschatalogical event - as is the yet future diaspora of the Jews. As I wrote in the OP it may be that this diaspora will happen during the Tribulation, and the regathering to the wilderness will probably happen at the end of the Tribulation.

Now here is the verse from Ezekiel again:

*edited for space*

The final regathering will result in an immdiate grouping together in the wilderness where God will meet with them face to face and regraft them into the covenant (Romans 11) and then purge the rebels out so that only the righteous can enter the promised Land. None of this occured prior to the reentry into Israel in 1948 so this is still a yet future event. Not many people have ever heard of this.

Tell me your thoughts.

P.S. Thanks for the verses. I'll look over them.

God Bless,

~Josh

70 A.D. really isn't a theory. It actually happened. That is historical fact. The Jews had no city, no Temple, nothing keeping them from resorting back to their nomadic roots.

I don't see much of a problem with 1948 because I haven't been able to really prove it will be immediate. Josh, I'm clearly not seeing another scattering. Sorry :-?

I'm really beginning to see problems with a future 70th. week and trying to fit all end time prophecy into a neat, little seven year package. It just doesn't add up and leaves holes all over the place. We're staring at a couple of those holes right here in this thread.

I wish more people world chime in with resources other than the usual PreTrib stuff I read here. I pure futuristic view just isn't working for me anymore.

 

[cyberjosh]

70 A.D. really isn't a theory. It actually happened. That is historical fact. The Jews had no city, no Temple, nothing keeping them from resorting back to their nomadic roots.

Yeah I know that really happened and that Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D after a two year war with the Jews. What I was saying is that I don't think that particular scattering I was talking about fit with the 70 A.D. event. though certainly other prophecies refered to it. This prophecy in Ezekiel has a different subject & application.

I don't see much of a problem with 1948 because I haven't been able to really prove it will be immediate. Josh, I'm clearly not seeing another scattering. Sorry

Actually you don't have to confuse yourself. Surely the scattering and regathering (in 1948) was prophecied but there is more than one prophecy concerning the scattering and regathering of the Jews. Its just like how many of the prophecies that were applied to David also had a double fulfillment in Christ himself, however there are distinct prophecies that refer to different time periods, thus the context must be looked at. The particular prophecy I am looking at has an escatalogical context.

Look at the Scriptures I gave in my OP (click the links to biblegateway.com and read them) and try to read my whole post, it seems you may not have read it all thus the confusion.

I'm really beginning to see problems with a future 70th. week and trying to fit all end time prophecy into a neat, little seven year package. It just doesn't add up and leaves holes all over the place. We're staring at a couple of those holes right here in this thread.

Oh please don't give up on the litteral element just because it seems hard! I'm working right now on compiling a parallel listing of all the prophecies and how they fit together. The 70th week of daniel is what my Church has been going over every wednesday at Church for the last month so it is very fresh in my mind. 69 Weeks were fulfilled as daniel said until the Messiah would be cut off. That began the time of the Gentiles because the Jews had rejected Christ. Thus the kingdom was handed over to the Gentiled for a period of time called the "times of the Gentiles". The Prophetic clock for Israel has stopped in relation to the 70 weeks, since it only applies to Israel. The last week of years (7 years will be the Tribulation). It makes perfect sense because the Rapture of the Church will end the time of the Gentiles.

If you have any questions/doubt just ask me and I'll be more than glad to discuss it with you.

I wish more people world chime in with resources other than the usual PreTrib stuff I read here. I pure futuristic view just isn't working for me anymore.

Don't give up. Put your difficulties here and I'll go through them with you. I have a prophecy book I'm reading right now and it also answers alot of questions which people have been asking for a long time.

I look forward to your feedback.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I'm also going to try to compile a list of direct parallels that I've seen between Ezekiel & Isaiah with Revelation. This should boost your confidence in the literal events and show more corrolation than you probably even knew of between the OT & NT prophecies. It will make more sense to you when you see it layed out in a coherent fashion.

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Josh,

First off, please do not take any "tone" in my post, personal. Thanks.

For the longest time, I believed in a pre tribulation harpazo, but never questioned it. Then, I read "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen and started to study End Times from the PreWrath perspective and it just made more sense to me. You see, I'm not much of a dispensationalist. I don't buy into the idea that the ekklesia is not subjected to Tribulation. That is an insult to Jesus and all who were persecuted after Him. Nowhere in the Bible are we assured escape from Tribulation, other than Rev. 3:10, which is reserved for a special group.

Even though I supported the gap in Daniel, I slowly started to doubt the gap. I ran into a link Jason posted a while back on Issac Newton and his prophetic thoughts. That led me to explore some of the other Reformers and their commentaries. They believed something our Adventists members here have been trying to tell me, but I wouldn't listen.

The Reformed belief says the 70th. week started at the ministry of Jesus and lasted up to either the time Stephen was stoned or when Cornelius was converted; the two events were very close in time.

I am finding the more I work on this position, the less I have to piece together time and scripture to make it all fit. I trust Newton on this. He was not constrained by modern translations and... he interpreted scripture right from their native, written languages; Hebrew and Greek. Plus, there is little reason to doubt his math skills, that's for sure.

So, since I see much of prophecy as already being fulfilled and are still working out the finer points of the historical, reformed view, I may not be the best person to contribute to this thread. I will be watching it, however. :-D

My honest opinion... mainstream Christianity has seems to all but abandon historical interpretations. Maybe it would be to your benefit (and your church's study groups) to explore how this futuristic view came to be. warning, it may cause you to completely rethink End Times.

Peace Josh,
Vic

 

[golfjack]

reply

Josh, Maybe this will help. Let's look at the book of Daniel: I believe Our Lord acknowledged the gap between His first and second comings. Our Loord read from Isaiah 61:1, 2, ending with the acceptable year of the Lord, detailing the blessings of His first Advent in grace to Israel. He told them, Today this scripoture is fulfilled in your hearing ( Luke 4:16-21). The next line in Isaiah reads ( but it is not quoting Christ), And the day of vengeance of our God. This is still in the future.

Now there is a similar gap between verses 26 and 27 in the Daniel chapter 9. The 69 sevens of years, or 483 years were fulfilled by the crucification of Christ. However the seventieth seven, or the last seven years, are still in the future because there are six prophecies that must be fulfilled during the seventy sevens of years before the 490 years determined for Israel come completely to pass. Gabriel said to Daniel ( v. 24), Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city to finish the transgressioin, the end of backsliding for the Hebrew Nation, who will never again be apostate; this is yet in the future; to make an end of sins, as a nation they will no longer make a practice of sinning; this is yet in the future; to make reconcilliation for iniquity, they will be reconcilled to God by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, their Messiah ( Zech. 12:9-11; Rom. 11:25-27), as a nation they will repent; this is still in the future; to bring in everlasting righteousness, this is God's righteous kingdom that Christ will establish on earth when He comes again ( Heb. 1:8, 9; Is. 9:6, 7; Rev. 19:11-16); this is yet future; to seal up the vision and prophesy, there will be no more need for visions and prophesies for Israel, for all will have come to pass; this is yet future; to anoint the Most Holy, or the most Holy Place, the kingdom temple; this is yet future.


There is so much more to study, but I will end now.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[preterist]

I haven’t the time do deal with all your verses, but you seem to take the position that these are all yet future. Here is how Wesley deals with one of them:

John Wesley

Eze 20:34 - The people - Sidonians, Ammonites, Moabites, or whoever they were, to whom the apostate Jews betook themselves, where they thought to lurk, God will bring them thence into Babylonish captivity.

Prophecies Not Yet Fulfilled

Clearly, these prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. To date, God has not actually scattered Israel among all nations.

Hosea says otherwise:

Hos 8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now are they among the nations as a vessel wherein none delighteth.

Why did God do this? The answer is found in Jeremiah:

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.

It was during the time of Christ and the early Church that the House of Israel was to be brought back:

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
Mat 10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Unless the House of Israel and the House of Judea have been united, we are not yet under the New Covenant:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.


Eze 37:19 say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them with it, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thy hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;
Eze 37:23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.


Eph 2:12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,

The time of Christ to AD70 was the fulfillment of these prophecies. God is through with the types and shadows that physical Israel represented.

 

[Bubba]

I haven’t the time do deal with all your verses, but you seem to take the position that these are all yet future. Here is how Wesley deals with one of them:


The time of Christ to AD70 was the fulfillment of these prophecies. God is through with the types and shadows that physical Israel represented.

Are you a full preterist?
Bubba

 

[preterist]

Are you a full preterist?
Bubba

I lean that way.

 

[Bubba]

preterist,
I am what I consider a partial Preterist, in that I believe there will be a "New Heaven and Earth" , Judgment and Jesus will come back again physically, I do not believe in a literal 1000 year period.
It is good to read something other then typical western "Dispensationalism" view.
Grace , Bubba

 

[tim-from-pa]

cybershark5886:

I have to ask you point blank. Do you believe as I do regarding the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" (the Jews) as the bible teaches? The House of Israel was lost and never returned to the land. Yet, the bible talks about their end-time regathering. I believe these tribes migrated and became now the people of NW Europe, Britain and finally the United States.

If you do, then that will help answer some of your questions. You see, there are those that spiritualize all these promises to Israel because they "gentilized" the bible as I call it. then there are those who apply all the promises of Israel to just the Jews, but when we study the bible carefully, we see that the Jews never fulfilled the verse like Genesis 35:11, and Genesis 48:19.

When we understand that God had TWO nations of people, one (the Jews) which retained the old way of the Law and the Israelites, which appear as Gentiles and preach the gospel, it makes more sense.

Any other biblical theory I heard does not make sense, and as I always say, is playing with half a deck.

 

[preterist]

cybershark5886:

, we see that the Jews never fulfilled the verse like Genesis 35:11, and Genesis 48:19.

John Gill

and kings shall come out of thy loins; as Saul, David, Solomon, and, many others, who were kings of Israel and of Judah, and especially the King Messiah; yea, all his posterity were kings and priests, or a kingdom of priests, Exo_19:6.


and his seed shall become a multitude of nations; that is, of families, for as nations are called families, Amo_3:1; so families may be called nations; the Targum of Onkelos is,"his sons shall be rulers among the people,''so Joshua, who was of the tribe of Ephraim, conquered and subdued the nations of the Canaanites, and Jeroboam of this tribe ruled over the ten tribes or nations of Israel: it may be rendered, "his seed shall fill the nations" (t), or be "the fulness" of them; which Jarchi interprets of the whole world being filled with the fame and renown of Joshua, who was of this tribe, when the sun and moon stood still in his days; but it is best to understand this of the large share he should have of the land of Canaan among the rest of the tribes or nations of Israel.

 

[Bubba]

Since many on this forum appear to adhere to a separation of God's program of salvation for Israel and The Church, I offer this from William Kilgore:

ISRAEL & THE CHURCH

Are there "two separate programs of God" -- one for natural Israel and another for the Church? Two distinct "peoples of God"? This is what dispensationalists teach! Ryrie states that the

"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." -- Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, pp.44-45 (emphasis mine).

I believe that such can easily be refuted by a careful reading of Romans 11:17-26. Yes -- Israel was 'blinded' and 'cast away' for a season 'until the fulness of the Gentiles', etc. -- I believe this 100%. But notice that the Church was 'grafted into' the same "olive tree"! Further, it is this same "olive tree" that the remnant of saved Jews will be grafted back into it "again"! Note also that we are speaking of Israel's "own olive tree" (v. 24)! There is only one body, only one people of God, only one Israel -- and it is spiritual.

I suggest that the exalted Jesus Christ reigns now on "the throne of David" (Acts 2:30-36), on the true "Mt. Zion" (Ps. 2:6; Heb. 12:22; 1 Pe. 2:6; Rev. 14:1), in the heavenly "Jerusalem" (Gal. 4:26; Heb. 11:10,16; 12:22; 13:14; Rev. 3:12; 21:2,10), over the true "Israel of God" (Rom. 2:28-29; 9:6; 11; 1 Cor. 10:18; Gal.6:16 - contrast Rev. 2:9 and 3:9). Who can deny such clear texts?

The "temple" is the Church (1 Cor. 3:16-17; Eph. 2:21; Heb. 8:2; 9:11). There has been an end to sacrifices (Dan. 9:27; Heb. 10) -- the veil was torn in two (Matt. 27:51/Mark 15:38/Luke 23:45). There is no future time of a 'restored temple & sacrifices' where God returns to the OT economy -- that is "retro-religion." Why return to the "weak and beggarly elements" (Gal. 4:9) of the Old Covenant, where the blood of sacrificed animals could never remove the stain of sin - such was not even possible (Heb. 10:4)! No, God has spoken in these last days by His Son (Heb. 1:2) concerning the New Covenant - "better" in every respect (2 Cor. 3:7-11; Heb. 7:19,22; 8:6; 9:23; 10:34; 11:40; 12:24).

The Church Age is no "unforseen parenthesis" as dispensationalists claim. No, to this "Church Age" the OT Prophets gave abundant witness - Ps. 72:11,17; 86:9; Isa. 2:2; 11:10; 42:6; 49:6; 54:3; 60:3; 61:9; 62:2; 66:12,18-19; Jer. 3:17; 4:2; 16:19; Dan. 7:13-14; Micah 5:8; Hag. 2:7; Zech. 2:11; 8:22-23; Mal. 1:11; Matt. 8:11; Mark 11:17; Luke 2:32; Rom. 15:8-12; Gal. 3:8. It is true that some aspects of it were "hidden" from their understanding (Eph. 3:2-11; Col. 1:25-28). But this does not mean, as dispensationalists often teach, that the Prophets were completely "in the dark." We are no 'accident' -- we are no 'plan B' that God was forced to resort to ... -- no, everything is right on schedule and going according to God's sovereign plan!

 

[tim-from-pa]

Well Bubba, since you are the only post since my last post, I will not disagree that there is a throne in heaven, to which Jesus was exalted. I am well familiar with these verses, but what scripture do you have that specifically states that the throne of David went from earth to heaven?


God always had that throne in heaven that you pointed out as it is written;

The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me?

Yet, the throne of David clearly existed at the same time this was written. Fact is, you cannot find a single verse that says the throne of David was even "moved" to heaven. Verses of exaltation and Lordship do not nullify the earthly throne in any manner no matter how hard you try to make it sound that way--- you are comparing apples to oranges. Apples and oranges have this in common; they come from trees and parallel each other in that fashion, but are not the same.

As a matter of fact, the disciples asked this very question in Acts 1:6

Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

To which Jesus answered:

Nay, the throne is now in heaven to which I ascendeth, and the people of Israel are now the spiritual house.....

Is that what he said? No. Rather it was very clearly (and this is not parable, allegory or whatever)

It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Or colloquially, it's none of your business right now when the kingdom will be restored to Israel (under Roman rule at that time).

And one other thing You can explain to me when Genesis 35:11 and Genesis 48:19 were fulfilled if you care..

 

[MrVersatile48]

There are so many misunderstandings to coment on that, for the sake of time, threads @ many aspects are linked here:-

BEFORE OUR EYES..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=18604

See

DEFINITELY - MOST CERTAINLY - NOT MAYBE

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=18602


I just have time to say that my ex-ma-in-law once said, "They told us that Hitler was Antichrist & that WW2 was Armageddon"

As I said to her, though Jesus said 'no-one knows the day & the hour', He & OT prophets chose to pinpoint this climax generation of all history, that began with the 1948 rebirth of Israel

That was the year I was born & my Bible College grad mum always said, "Thank God that you'll never be a decrepit 70-year-old on Earth, because Jesus clearly promised, in Matt 24, that this 'fig tree' (of Israel)generation will be 'cut short' by the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time on Earth comes"

See PRECINCT PULVERISER MEDLEY >>

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19055


See Israel reborn: Psalms 17 & 48 etc etc

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27370

The desert blooms as a rose already - if you see pre-1948 aerial photos of Israel, it was desert wasteland, but it's lush & verdant now - & does, as promised, 'fill the world with her fruit'

God gave tiny Israel miraculous vistories over impossible odds in 1948, but also in '56, '67's 6-Days War, '73's ONE-day Yom Kippur War, etc etc

Keeping His promise that once Israel was regathered from her global scattering, she'll NEVER be scattered again

God will give her the even greater victories of Zecvhariah 12:1-8 & Ezekiel 38-39, as well as the ultimate Armageddon of Joel 3, Zechariah 14 & Revelation 16-19

Take God at His Word

& open your eyes to the multiplying, intensifying 'birthpains' that will bring on the Great Delivery

Don't be left behind, readers![/b]

Ian

 

[MrVersatile48]

Again, see how today's news brings us ever closer to Zechariah 12:1-8

Jerusalem's Enemies to Be Destroyed

An Oracle

1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares:

2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.

3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations.

5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.'

6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah.

8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them.


Link just failed, so click my profile

& find all posts by...

OK...

OK...

www too