Jesus is God?... or not? When & how did you first find

[Imagican]

So true my friend. The important thing to remember is that even when we are taught and follow false doctrine God is capable of 'overcoming this'. What we MUST do is to place our faith on HIM rather than man. When we do this we allow the Spirit to guide us. The important thing is to 'listen' to this voice rather than that of men. You seem to have hit on this DIRECTLY. So sad that so many will never realize the importance of following the Spirit rather than those that would lead them in a 'different' direction.

God Bless you brother.

MEC

 

[thessalonian]

What's with this stigma about being taught doctrines. Didn't Paul tell Timothy to entrust his teachings to faithful men who will teach others? Doesn't Jerimiah say "I will send you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". That something is taught by men or a Church does not automatically make it false or not from God as you one man show believers seem to like to think. That you individually are the true interpreters of scripture. Yes I was taught the trinity. It needs to be taught because, though logical and reasonable it is beyond human reason and logic and your disobedience and rebellion forces you to reject it.

I heard a good story over the weekend related from Augustine's works. When he was not yet Christian he was walking down a beach and trying to understand the trinity. How could there be one God in three persons he asked. Well as he walked along he came upon a little boy who had dug a hole and was going to the ocean and bringing back buckets of water. Augustine asked him what he was doing and he said I am going to put that whole ocean in this hole. Augustine said " That is impossible". The boy said, I will put the whole ocean in this whole before you figure out how the trinity can be. The young boy dissapeared.

You people want explanations from us that you can wrap your brains around. You don't want to have faith without reasoning something through completely. With this mentality you will continue to create a false God. One who is bounded by your thoughts. Thoughts which could not have created a world and so such God could not have either and therefore is a false God.

God bless

 

[Imagican]

No Thess, my God DID create the UNIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT, including His ONLY Begotten Son, my Lord, Jesus Christ.

It's amazing how much information that I have offered concerning the Catholic Church attempting to DESTROY all who were 'true' Saints in order to spread their 'own' doctrine, only to have those that will 'still' insist that 'their' doctrine is the 'truth'.

Thess, Paul did NOT lie. There have ALWAYS been a 'few' who were NOT willing to surcome to the Catholic doctrine regardless of their power and influence over the masses. Most that were willing to 'speak out' were either tortured into submission or outright murdered, but there were always those 'behind the spotlight' that continued to spread the 'true' message.

I know that these words are considered by the Catholic Church to be heresy. That only goes to show the lack of love that has been offered by ANY that would insist that EVERYONE MUST follow 'their' doctrine rather than the Word of God. For to label me or ANYONE an heretic for the sake of 'man-made' doctrine could not possibly be those that KNOW of the love that has been offered and expected of God's children.

Thess, we were told outright that, for us to expect forgiveness, we MUST learn to forgive. NO, not demand forgiveness FOR ourselves, but forgiveness offered BY US to our enemies is paramont to understanding and following God's will, which IS love towards Him and love offered to our neighbors, REGARDLESS of their being friend or foe.

What I have witnessed from the Catholic Church is condemnation towards ANY that refuse 'their' doctrine and abuse of even those that do. Destroying the enemies of 'their' doctrine instead of offering the love that was commanded of God and His Son.

So, PLEASE, don't try and offer that it's those that understand LOVE that have created 'false gods'. LOOK at what it took, for those that chose to worship as commanded, to separate themselves from those that would FORCE them to accept 'their' way. Kind of reminds one of Christ and the apostles and the trials that they went through in order to 'go against the grain' of the religious order of their time don't it?

No Thess, it's NOT those that offer love and forgiveness that have created 'false gods'. But those that choose to worship the creation MORE than the 'Creator' that have chosen to be 'their OWN gods'. Now what to YOU suppose that this means?

 

[Sothenes]

What's with this stigma about being taught doctrines. Didn't Paul tell Timothy to entrust his teachings to faithful men who will teach others? Doesn't Jerimiah say "I will send you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". That something is taught by men or a Church does not automatically make it false or not from God as you one man show believers seem to like to think. That you individually are the true interpreters of scripture. Yes I was taught the trinity. It needs to be taught because, though logical and reasonable it is beyond human reason and logic and your disobedience and rebellion forces you to reject it.

ASV: Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

BBE: For the natural man is not able to take in the things of the Spirit of God: for they seem foolish to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the Spirit.

DBY: But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned;

KJV: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

WEY: The unspiritual man rejects the things of the Spirit of God, and cannot attain to the knowledge of them, because they are spiritually judged.

WBS: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

WEB: Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

YLT: and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know 'them', because spiritually they are discerned;

1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[Sothenes]

No Thess, my God DID create the UNIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT, including His ONLY Begotten Son, my Lord, Jesus Christ.

It's amazing how much information that I have offered concerning the Catholic Church attempting to DESTROY all who were 'true' Saints in order to spread their 'own' doctrine, only to have those that will 'still' insist that 'their' doctrine is the 'truth'.

Thess, Paul did NOT lie. There have ALWAYS been a 'few' who were NOT willing to surcome to the Catholic doctrine regardless of their power and influence over the masses. Most that were willing to 'speak out' were either tortured into submission or outright murdered, but there were always those 'behind the spotlight' that continued to spread the 'true' message.

We can't move on, Imagician, until (1) you deal with my reasoning that Jesus wasn't created and (2) several hundreds of years passed between the Council of Nicea and the Reformation which means you are interpreting what happened in the days that the Council of Nicea existed from the latter Middle Ages which is a confused way to look at things historically because hundreds of years had passed and everything was different. The first Crusade was launced in 1096 A.D. which was many years after the Council of Nicea so I think your claims need more evidence because your history needs supporting.

 

[Imagican]

No Thess, my God DID create the UNIVERSE and EVERYTHING IN IT, including His ONLY Begotten Son, my Lord, Jesus Christ.

It's amazing how much information that I have offered concerning the Catholic Church attempting to DESTROY all who were 'true' Saints in order to spread their 'own' doctrine, only to have those that will 'still' insist that 'their' doctrine is the 'truth'.

Thess, Paul did NOT lie. There have ALWAYS been a 'few' who were NOT willing to surcome to the Catholic doctrine regardless of their power and influence over the masses. Most that were willing to 'speak out' were either tortured into submission or outright murdered, but there were always those 'behind the spotlight' that continued to spread the 'true' message.

We can't move on, Imagician, until (1) you deal with my reasoning that Jesus wasn't created and (2) several hundreds of years passed between the Council of Nicea and the Reformation which means you are interpreting what happened in the days that the Council of Nicea existed from the latter Middle Ages which is a confused way to look at things historically because hundreds of years had passed and everything was different. The first Crusade was launced in 1096 A.D. which was many years after the Council of Nicea so I think your claims need more evidence because your history needs supporting.

Ok Soth,

I thought that I had already 'dealt' with your reasoning behind your belief that Jesus IS God and that He WASN'T created. I thought that I had already shown 'through scripture' that Jesus WAS created BY GOD. But since you would like to go over this again. I certainly have the patience and wish to help those that don't understand a 'better' insight into what the Bible offers through the Word of God offered to us by His Son Himself.

This is MY SON in whom I am well pleased. Please explain to me how Jesus COULD POSSIBLY be the Son of God without God 'creating' Him.

What Christ offered was NOT His own words but those GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER.

Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do.

Father, not MY will but thine be done.

Not the angels nor even the Son Himself knows of the time but the Father ONLY knows this answer.

The FIRSTBORN of every creature.

NO ONE can go to the Father EXCEPT through The Son.

Now, Soth, these are only a few of the points that we've already been through. I am no more willing to accept your offerings than you seem to be to mine. This is no surprise. But, we have TONS of evidence that Christ was created BY God, FOR God. Just as we were created by Christ, FOR Christ. My understanding of the Word is NOTHING new. It has been debated throughout the history of Christianity. The biggest problem that YOU would have to confront in order to defend YOUR view is that YOUR view didn't exist until hundreds of years AFTER Christ's death.

Neither God, His Son NOR the apostles taught 'trinity' or that Jesus WAS God. THEY KNEW better. They KNEW Him AS the Son of God. For there to be a SON, there MUST be a Father. Therefore, my father was in essence MY CREATOR. For it was through HIS SEED that I came to this earth.

What you have 'bought into' is some mystical voodoo type God that totally contradicts what has been offered by GOD HIMSELF, HIS SON, the APOSTLES, and the Holy Spirit. Some 'three headed' god that you are forced to explain as a 'mystery' for you don't even understand what you believe. You can 'say' that Jesus IS God and that the Holy Spirit IS God and that God IS GOD. But, when asked to explain the "HOW" of it, it basically comes down to; "well, you know, it's kind of like an ice cube". or "you know how a computer is..............." Come on, my friend. Think of how utterly ridiculous it sounds to one that KNOWS God to compare Him to an ice cube or a computer.

So, I guess we just can't 'go on' any further, for I am perfectly convinced that God is the Father of Christ. I have EVEN OFFERED SCRIPTURE that STATES this and it was COMPLETELY ignored by EVERY 'trinitarian' that has participated in this post and the other concerning 'trinity'. 1 Peter remember?

I have met people that believe in aliens from other planets. I have met people that believe in ancient creatures that they think 'still' roam this earth. So, it comes as NO surprise that there have been those, and still are, that create their 'own' gods. We were told that this happened since time immortal and that it would continue to happen until this earth NO LONGER exists as we know it now.

But you know what, I could no more convince these that they are wrong any more than I can convince you to believe something 'different' than what you have accepted into your heart. No amount of 'proof', no amount of evidence, no amount of scripture is going to convince ANYONE that believes in Beni Hindi or is it going to turn them away from what they have accepted into their heart. For there WILL be those that CHOOSE to follow a lie, and for these, God will offer strong delusion so that they will believe this lie.

We were warned by Paul that there would come a time that there would be those that would worship the creation MORE than the Creator. I, for one, believe this is EXACTLY what the teaching of Christ AS God has done. Teaching that the Son, created BY the Father, (God), was changed into God Himself. Thus, it has been proven that the teachings of Paul were DIRECTLY given to him by the Spirit. His prophecy IS the 'truth' for the evidence of it's fulfillment is manifest 'right before our very eyes'.

I, Soth, have 'created' NOTHING. I accept the Word as offered and only ask that God direct my steps and understanding. I TOTALLY reject the teachings of men that would insist that I must follow them instead of God. I beg daily for forgiveness and that I be led by the Spirit INSTEAD of my measly, fleshly understanding. I have 'bought into' NOTHING other than that offered to me by God through His Word.

This is apparent to ANYONE that has read and has even the most basic of understanding concerning the Word. Yet what you offer is nothing other than the teachings of men that would have and DID at times destroy those sent to offer the Word. That you find what I say offensive only goes to prove that you have little wish to follow the truth and choose rather to follow MEN. For, where there SHOULD be love and understanding, I see a perpetual insistence that if I don't follow YOUR beliefs, that I am the enemy and an heretic. Only going to show that those that believe in this manner are 'their OWN gods; able to decide my fate as if THEY are the judges of the world instead of Christ through the power of God.

Soth, always remember ONE THING and it will guide the rest of a quest for the truth. Christ did not come to save those that 'don't need to be saved', those that are 'righteous', but sinners instead. No need for a doctor if one is NOT sick, remember? As it is pointed out that it's almost impossible for a 'rich man' to enter heaven, so it is with those that simply 'play the game'. For they don't truly understand a NEED for Christ but follow others in 'their game' that offers them the security of 'fitting in'. Without an understanding of LOVE, it is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE to KNOW GOD. NO, not a COMPLETE understanding, for it is unlikely that any but a very few will ever come close to this amount of understanding. But a rudimentary understanding IS possible.

Have you ever read that we are told to be 'perfect'? Have you ever read in the Word that we can be 'perfect'? I will await your reply to these two questions.

Soth, if I DON'T accept Jesus Christ AS God, does this mean that God DOES NOT LOVE ME? If I reject your 'trinity', does this mean that I reject God? If I give ALL that I own, EVEN THOUGH IT BE LITTLE, does that mean that it will be rejected as 'not good enough'? Do me and everyone that reads this a favor and start your reply by answering these questions FIRST.

 

[mutzrein]

I must say I've had a good chuckle at those who want to liken God to ice cubes and PC bits. I remember someone told me once they didn't understand it either because it was a 'mystery' and yet they would not be moved from their view point that they could be wrong.

They reckoned it required faith to accept and then went on to tell me that the Godhead could be likened to an egg. I can't remember what they related to what but I think The Father was the yoke, Jesus was the white and the Holy Spirit was the shell. After their explanation I told them I didn't agree, but that's all 'white', it was the biggest 'yoke' I'd heard in a long time and it was really 'crackin' me up!

I wonder why they didn't want to espouse their wonderful doctrines to me after that. :-?

 

[Imagican]

See what I said, "A wise man.........................with a sense of humor too!!!

Mutz, you ARE a funny guy.

Look folks, I am not here to argue so much as to offer to those that seem oblivious to the FACT that God LOVES US. EVERY ONE OF US. Men would teach that He ONLY loves those that follow 'them'. I am here to offer that God loves us all regardless of man-made theology. The problem exists when one begins to follow men to 'other gods' instead of the Father of Christ. There can be NO personal relationship with someone that you don't even know. So, if one follows a 'false god', it makes impossible for them to learn of the 'true' God until this conception is dispelled and abandoned.

To take the Son of God and turn Him into God Himself is nothing short of 'creating your OWN god'. For man was NEVER told these things by God, Christ or Christ's apostles. We have NO example or statement in the entire Bible that shows us that Christ IS God. Yet we have outright statements by Christ Himself that He IS the Son of God. I know that once one begins to 'believe' 'trinity', there are passages, taken BY THEMSELVES and OUT OF CONTEXT that can 'seem' to indicate 'trinity'. But just as Satan decieved Eve in the garden, 99 percent of what Satan stated was the 'truth'. It was that ONE percent that caused the fall.

So, we have tons and tons of out right PROOF that Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God. And a few statements that can be twisted into a belief that He WAS God. Take it all in context and bring it all together in a 'single understanding' and it becomes apparent that 'trinity' is nothing more than 'something created' by men that thought they were wiser than God or His Son. Insisting that the Son MUST be God even after the Son Himself offered that Everything concerning Him was 'GIVEN' by the Father.

Not only is this perfectly clear, but look at the names that are referenced to Them BOTH; Father = God, Christ = Son. The Father, AND the Son. For their to be a Son, there MUST be a Father. For there to be a Father does NOT mean there HAS to be a Son. But, from EVERYTHING that WE KNOW, Fathers ARE the creators of Sons. Now why would these terms have even been used except to offer us an understanding of the relationship between God and Christ? There was NO need for God to try and 'trick' us by using terminology that 'says' one thing, yet 'means' another.

 

[thessalonian]

Imgican. You speak nonsense and blather. I'll not waste my time with your assertions of the god of I. The false god you have created for yourself.

God bless

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Imgican. You speak nonsense and blather. I'll not waste my time with your assertions of the god of I. The false god you have created for yourself

a) There is only one God

b) Christ is the Son of God

Surely you agree with these premises? This is soooo simple. If you say that Christ is ALSO God, you violate "a" - you make someone else God, other than the Father who we are told is the "only true God". When you argue that Christ is God, you eliminate the distinction between Jesus and the Father, when you argue for the distinction, you eliminate any reasonable concept of there being "only one God". Your assent for there being only one God is therefore meaningless. It is only "on paper" that believe in one God. What you are really describing is a God "family" of different persons. This is no different from the families of Greek and Roman gods except that the Greeks/Romans were honest enough to label these families "gods" (plural).

 

[thessalonian]

Imgican. You speak nonsense and blather. I'll not waste my time with your assertions of the god of I. The false god you have created for yourself

a) There is only one God

b) Christ is the Son of God

Surely you agree with these premises? This is soooo simple. If you say that Christ is ALSO God, you violate "a" - you make someone else God, other than the Father who we are told is the "only true God". When you argue that Christ is God, you eliminate the distinction between Jesus and the Father, when you argue for the distinction, you eliminate any reasonable concept of there being "only one God". Your assent for there being only one God is therefore meaningless. It is only "on paper" that believe in one God. What you are really describing is a God "family" of different persons. This is no different from the families of Greek and Roman gods except that the Greeks/Romans were honest enough to label these families "gods" (plural).

I agree with a & b. Your conclusion is a false one however. The wisdom of men is foolishness. You want a god that fits your thinking. Not the God that is. You want to rationalize God but your god is not the revealed God. Sorry.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Premise A and B are both true, however, I posit premise C

C: If Jesus is the Son of God, he was begotten by/of God and is therefore of the same substance as Him.

If Jesus were begotten by God in the womb of Mary, that would mean that he is of the same substance. Sheep beget sheep, and people beget people and thats just how it goes. Assuming that all creation does indeed point to a Creator, that would mean on some level that creation must have some charicteristics OR point to characteristics of God, otherwise it would not point to a Creator, but to its self as creation. So it is reasonable to assert that human begetting of humans can mirror the divine relationship of God and the Son of God.

Now if Jesus is of the same substance being begotten by God, then he too is God, but there is not multiple gods because there is still only one substance of God in existence. Similar to when a human begets a human, a new race of humans is not created. There is still only one race and we are all still humans. Because it is still all the substance of God that composes the Son and the Father, this shared substance or essence would also share a will because they are of the same substance and are both therefore God. So it is possible to explain a Trinity.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Premise A and B are both true, however, I posit premise C

C: If Jesus is the Son of God, he was begotten by/of God and is therefore of the same substance as Him.

If Jesus were begotten by God in the womb of Mary, that would mean that he is of the same substance. Sheep beget sheep, and people beget people and thats just how it goes. Assuming that all creation does indeed point to a Creator, that would mean on some level that creation must have some charicteristics OR point to characteristics of God, otherwise it would not point to a Creator, but to its self as creation. So it is reasonable to assert that human begetting of humans can mirror the divine relationship of God and the Son of God.

Now if Jesus is of the same substance being begotten by God, then he too is God, but there is not multiple gods because there is still only one substance of God in existence. Similar to when a human begets a human, a new race of humans is not created. There is still only one race and we are all still humans. Because it is still all the substance of God that composes the Son and the Father, this shared substance or essence would also share a will because they are of the same substance and are both therefore God. So it is possible to explain a Trinity.

So when you say there is only one God you actually mean there is only one divine substance? Well, that is my point exactly. What prevents a certain "substance" from being multiple Gods? The gods of Mt. Olympus, in theory, would be all of one divine substance - they would all be "deity" but not one deity, not one God. Besides, you have equated the "one God" that you believe in to a "race". But a "race" or species of divine persons does not fall into the category of monotheism but is clearly polytheism. If you described the Trinity to a polytheistic pagan, he would see no difference between your divine persons and his own, except that you insist on calling yours "one God". The "label" doesn't count, the CONCEPT behind it does. What greater distinction is necessary, to illustrate 2 (or more) Gods, than to say that they are different persons? What greater distinction would be required to make them "more than one God" than to point out that they are NOT ONE ANOTHER? When you make this distinction, you ARE, whether you realize it or not, postulating more than one God.

So, yes, it is possible to explain a Trinity, but not as one God. You can only label it "one God' and hope no one looks beneath the label.

 

[Imagican]

Thess, I admit that the wisdom of God is often mistaken as 'nonsense' when approached from the wisdom of men.

I create NOTHING but speak of the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. I can tell by your lack of responses to many of my last posts with anything but insults and innuendo, that you really have no desire to confront the points which I have offered. You choose instead to insult me and others that are here in love.

I have told you over and over Thess, I love you man. I am NOT here to threaten or coerce through MY MEANS in order to subvert ANYONE into MY doctrine. I have NO doctrine or such agenda. I simply speak the words that have been offered to me and hope that I am able to do what it is that I have been commanded to do.

I have YET to take credit for MY understanding of God or Christ. I am NOTHING without my God. What I offer is that which has taken God a long time to impart upon my heart. It took years to erase the 'fiction' that I had ingested from the world around me. Years of 're-programing' to bring me to the truth, (me kicking and fighting ALL THE WAY). But Thess, I now KNOW that what has been imparted IS what God has WILLED me to KNOW. I can not help but try, (in the hopes that I could help others avoid the traps and pitfalls that I have experienced), understand what it has taken much pain and suffering for me to obtain. NO, not of MY WILL but that of the Father through the words and deeds of His Son.

I have come here to confuse or distract NO ONE from the 'truth'. What I have found is; many that 'seem' to have a desire for the 'truth' and many others that are simply following fantasy instead of reality and insisting all the while that anyone that doesn't accept and follow 'their ways' is NO FRIEND of Theirs. Enemies in fact, that are NOT worthy of the god or heaven that they have 'created' themselves.

I listen to the testimony of those such as Klee and Mutz and quite a few others and understand the rejoicing of the angels in heaven each time another soul comes to the Father. For when I witness the words that these offer, I realize that they too have begun to experience the freedom that you, Thess, would not only deny to yourself, but insist that others MUST live their lives in the SAME bondage. Constantly seeking the peace and love of the Father, but stuck in the hate and misery of this world.

Thank God that 'your' church isn't able to condemn and torture those that refuse to accept their ways any longer. God allows His enemies to condemn themselves, but will, in His time, destroy those that have chosen to 'be destroyed'.

Mods, admins, anyone else that may take my words to be 'harsh' or 'extreme', please take into consideration that what I offer is only a reply to a post directed 'at me'. I have NEVER offered intentional insults to anyone on these threads.

When I speak to you of YOUR church Thess, I am not stating that it was 'created by you' or that you are 'responsible' for it's teachings. I simply refer to the 'church that you follow'. We have the proof of the words that I offer so I claim no responsibility or insight for their 'creation' I am simply the 'messenger'.

Thess, you seem to harbor MUCH resentment towards others. I want to tell a little story. Indulge me, please!

I have offered some of my past in these posts. Even more in the 'general topics' category as MY TESTIMONY. Here's a little more:

Having accepted the lifestyle of a 'son of satan' EVERYTHING in my life revolved around ME and 'being cool'. I did WHATEVER I wanted to. REGARDLESS of the feelings of others. And, you know how you've heard someone's speech referred to as 'talking like a sailor'? There have probably been few sailors that have ever used more profane obscenities than those that came from my mouth, (remember, it's not what goes INTO ones mouth that makes them 'unclean', rather it is what 'comes out of it'). On numerous occasions I had been confronted by my wife and friends, (many of whom are college grads, three of my closest friends having numerous degrees and one with a doctorate), concerning my language and many times had found it quite embarrassing. For I possessed an extensive vocabulary, yet often spoke as if I was as ignorant as ANY when it came to my speech around those I found myself comfortable.

I tried for years to STOP using these words only to find it IMPOSSIBLE. They were as much a part of me as using drugs, drinking or smoking. Each time that I made major efforts to eliminate this behavior, when I failed, I failed in the SAME way that I did EVERYTHING that I did, LIKE A CHAMP. I would find myself in WORSE shape than I had been 'before' the efforts.

When I accepted Christ into my heart and began to develope a relationship with God, one day I simply stated in prayer: 'God, if you don't want me to continue in this behavior TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME'. I won't sit here and blow smoke at you. No buzzers and whistles, no 'magic' potion. It did NOT change over night. But I began to notice that it diminished in intensity IMMEDIATELY. And each time I caught myself speaking in such manner, I would immediately, in my mind, say: "Forgive me Father".

The end result was that in less than a month these words were as foreign to me as they were to my wife as far as my speech was concerned. There were and have been slips at times but I now speak as a human being instead of an animal.

After a couple of months I began to catch myself 'staring off' into nothing with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on my mind. NO thoughts, NOTHING. It scared me SO bad that I was considering a trip to the doctor. For you see, I have ALWAYS been one to have SOMETHING on my mind CONSTANTLY. EVERY WAKING HOUR. Who had done 'what' to me, who I 'owed' some 'get-back' to, whatever. But never was I one to have NOTHING ON MY MIND.

About the time that I was prepared to make a phone call for an appointment, deathly afraid I may be in for news that I had 'partial-heimerz or something, it came to me, ALMOST like a voice. There was NOTHING 'wrong' with me, I had actually been becoming 'right' for the FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE.

Here's what came to me folks. The words that I had been SO troubled by. Those that I had found it SO difficult to control were NOT THE PROBLEM. They were NOTHING other than a SYMPTOM of a problem. The problem? Have you 'guessed' yet? Hate, my friends. I was FULL OF HATE and this is exactly what had been coming out of my mouth STRAIGHT FROM MY HEART. Didn't even realize it at the time. I thought it was just 'part of my life', the language that I used. But it was NOT 'just' words that I was using. I was delivering HATE everywhere that I went. INFECTING EVERYONE around me with hate, but MOSTLY destroying whatever semblance of happiness that existed around me.

So, when I began to 'catch myself' with NOTHING on my mind. I was Re-learning righteous behavior that I had never known before. What I feared as some 'mental deficiency' was nothing more than my mind attempting to 'catch up' with my heart. The REASON that I had NO thoughts at times was that The HATE had disappeared and I had SO little to replace it with. I was 'born again' into something NEW that I was barely even able to recognize. I wonder to this day, if it hadn't been 'revealed to me' if I would have EVER been able to figure it out on my own.

Folks, I only tell this story for YOU too to understand that WE ARE NOTHING without God. We can DO NOTHING that 'matters' WITHOUT GOD. He is our EVERYTHING. That's the way it was MEANT to be from the BEGINNING. He WILL do EVERYTHING that He has promised. He loves us more than we will ever know while contained within these 'fleshly vessels'. But He IS there for us and ALL we have to do is ask. NO, I don't mean that if we ask for silly materialistic, vain 'things', that He will answer. But, if we will only STOP for JUST A SECOND and LISTEN just a LITTLE bit, there IS a 'wee tiny voice' calling for us EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY. If we will only listen and pay attention, that 'wee tiny' voice can be allowed to grow, and Grow, and GROW, AND GROW, till it becomes OUR VOICE ALSO.

BUT, my friends, BUT, it can ONLY be allowed to have an effect on us IF we allow it. WE MUST LISTEN. And this I promise with all my heart. If you WILL LISTEN, YOU WILL GROW. Once this begins to take place in your life there is NO TURNING BACK. Of course we will stumble, for we are STILL children, learning to walk so that when we meet Our Father and His Son, face to face, we will be able to RUN as never before. Able to understand and accept the LOVE that they have for us and able to return it in kind.

Thess, (and anyone else out there), THIS IS WHAT I WOULD FOR YOU, WISH BEYOND ANYTHING ELSE. To share this with others is my hearts desire so that they too can find the freedom and love that has been payed for SO dearly by our Savior. I fear though, that there are those that would ROB them of this gift. Return them to bondage and death before they are ever even allowed to experience freedom and life.

So beware my brothers and sisters who and what you condemn without a FULL knowledge. For OUR IS NOT TO JUDGE one another, but to LOVE one another. Forgiveness is FIRST on this journey of LOVE. Forgiveness of ourselves through Jesus Christ and forgiveness of each other through LOVE. Let go of the hate and anger so that the LOVE of God can be allowed in. I promise, it works.

 

[thessalonian]

I create NOTHING but speak of the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. I can tell by your lack of responses to many of my last posts with anything but insults and innuendo, that you really have no desire to confront the points which I have offered. You choose instead to insult me and others that are here in love.

Thess, you seem to harbor MUCH resentment towards others. I want to tell a little story. Indulge me, please!

I merely call a spade a spade. You are a false teacher. You bear false witness against the Catholic Church and you assert your doctrine as the word of God when it is the word of the devil. My "lack of answers" as you charge is partially out of lack of time (the excuse you used yesterday) and lack of desire to continue casting pearls as false teachers who will not listen and harbor biggtry and hatred toward the Catholic faith which was established by Jesus Christ and his apostles. It is not love to lead people in to a ditch, speaking false doctrine that leads to their destruction simply because you have diluded yourself in to thinking the Holy Spirit is the cause of what is going on inside your brain.

 

[thessalonian]

By the way, your new found peace is not evidence that you have cornered the market on truth any more than the peace some of my Budhist friends have displayed is. Sorry. Your denial of the trinity is a denial of the one true God.

 

[Imagican]

Brad,

I commend you, once again, for your understanding of 'trinty'.

Now, if we can only convince you to re-address your 'questions' about the 'actual' existence of the ONE true God. I DO believe you are heading in the PROPER direction in order to allow your eyes to be opened and experience the Love that God has for you.

Not trying to 'wax sympathetic' on you, but He is there and knocking, I can tell. One could NOT understand as you do, nor even think about the subjects that you do without there being an open mind and open heart. So long as this is true, then it's only a matter of time before you too WILL SEE as you are already SEEN.

God Bless you brother.

MEC

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Brad,

I commend you, once again, for your understanding of 'trinty'.

Now, if we can only convince you to re-address your 'questions' about the 'actual' existence of the ONE true God. I DO believe you are heading in the PROPER direction in order to allow your eyes to be opened and experience the Love that God has for you.

Not trying to 'wax sympathetic' on you, but He is there and knocking, I can tell. One could NOT understand as you do, nor even think about the subjects that you do without there being an open mind and open heart. So long as this is true, then it's only a matter of time before you too WILL SEE as you are already SEEN.God Bless you brother. MEC

Thank you and I appreciate your concern. The reason I am able to discuss the subject at hand is because I was a believer for many years and actively engaged in study. As a believer, I was originally indoctrinated as a Trinitarian, then, through the writings of some and further research on my own I came to believe the scriptures most clearly teach what is known as the Unitarian viewpoint on the subject (though I also believe many verses have been "tweaked" in a Trinitarian fashion by scribes from the 2nd century on)

As per your concern, I fall into the category of "ex-christian" rather than the "not a Christian yet" category, though I realize that most believers would delegate the "ex-Christian" designation as "never REALLY WAS a Christian". (that is food for another thread itself, but I will say in passing that "ex-Christian" is a very real category and many unbelievers legitimately fall into it)

As it stands, though, I do not so much deny the bible/gospel outright but I have become very skeptical - skeptical to the point that most Evangelicals would assume I am "unsaved". The reason I say I am an "ex-Christian" is because I am not involved in fellowship anymore. I don't know what I am, so if others wish to classify me they may do so. I have peace with not claiming to know the answers to everything as I once did. There are many on both sides of the question who I believe are quite presumptuous in their certainty. In any case, I now believe that if God loves me, I have nothing to fear from Him, and if He doesn't exist, or doesn't exist as a "personal" Being, I also have nothing to fear

 

[Imagican]

Brad, my brother, you seem to forget that 'we' go back quite a ways. I am well aware of your standing and respect what you offer. There is MUCH to BE skeptical about in this 'age' in which we live. Just don't 'give up and quit' like so many do and I can see clearly that there is the hope and faith within you that will make this possible.

No doubt that those that wrote the Bible tried their best to eliminate God from it's words. But, and this is a BIG BUT, there is NO way that anyone or anything, including the father of lies himself that can usurp the authority of the Creator. So, with this in mind, it becomes obvious, even to yourself, that the truth CAN STILL BE FOUND IN THE WORDS OF THE BIBLE. They have ONLY made it easier to 'fool' those that listen to them rather than read it for themselves.

You were able to come to the truths that you have Brad, even after being deceived into 'another' gospel. There is NOTHING to stop you now but yourself. And open mind and an open heart WILL lead you to the 'truth'.

Once again, God Bless you brother

MEC

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Imagician,

Are you under the impression that Scripture is somehow flawed?