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And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses’

Verse 24: Also (Prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess..."

However we then move on to verse 25: "If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women. they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of thier owners, and give them thier dowers, according to what Is reasonable...if they fall into shame thier punishment is half that for free women..."

How did you manage to leave that out?

Yusuf Ali Commentary 540: That is, captives taken in a Jihad. "Your right hands" does not necesserily mean she has been assigned to you, or it is your propperty. All captures in war belong to the community, they are " yours in that sense. If you seek such a person in marriage, do it from know base motives. Safeguard your faith and see that she too does believe..."

Once again Gary Twists Quranic verse, but the Quran speaks for itself!
 
In fact, you have to read a bit more to understand this concept. Firstly, "HE must marry the girl".... HE and not SHE!!! This is the privilege of the girl to demand marriage. She or her father can refuse to marry. Read Exodus 22:17

And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, HE SHALL PAY MONEY ACCORDING TO THE DOWRY OF VIRGIN. Exodus 22:15-17

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" Deuteronomy 22:28-30


Yes, i understand that 3 books back it says this, but that is not a continuation of what we are told in deutronomy. The verse in Duetronomy does not say that it is the privelage of the Girl. It says he must marry the girl, you cant quote from 3 books back and give me the answer. In Deutronomy there is no issue of choice. If you want to give me the full context of the punishment, then quote from the verses that come before and after Deut 22:28-30.
 
All the hadith you quoted, about Muhammed allowing to have have intercourse with slaves, must be in accordance with the Quran verse, and they must get married first with the permission from the owners. If the Hadith says that you can have intercourse before marriage, then we must question its authenticity. Any hadith that does not go in accordance with the Quranic laws, is not authentic. But Hadeeths are the words of the prophet who was a man, and words of men can sometimes be misunderstood of Misinterpreted or can be imcomplete. However the Words of the Quran are directly from God, therefore there is nothing incomplete about that.
 
The Hadith are there.... for all to see and be disgusted about. History shows that Muslims have followed this disgusting tradition of raping captured women. Muhammad did it. His followers did it. You cannot escape it... it is even recorded in your own "authentic" Hadith.

"... Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. "

The women's HUSBANDS were still alive!! And these thugs wanted to RAPE them. Muhammad allowed it. He is sick

:o
 
Chapter 22: AL AZL (INCOMPLETE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE): COITUS INTERRUPTUS


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Book 008, Number 3371:
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.


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Book 008, Number 3372:
A hadith like this has been narrated on the authority of Habban with the same chain of transmitters (but with this alteration) that he said:" Allah has ordained whom he has to createuntil the Day of judgment."


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Book 008, Number 3373:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported: We took women captives, and we wanted to do 'azl with them. We then asked Allah's Messen- ger (may peace be upon him) about it, and he said to us: Verily you do it, verily you do it, verily you do it, but the soul which has to be born until the Day of judg- ment must be born.


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Book 008, Number 3374:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) (was asked if he had heard it himself), to which he said: Yes. (I heard) Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: There is no harm if you do not practise it, for it (the birth of the child) is something ordained (by Allah).


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Book 008, Number 3375:
This hadith is reported on the authority of Abu Sa'id with the same chain of transmitters but with a slight variation (of words).


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Book 008, Number 3376:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) was asked about 'azl, whereupon he said: There is no harm if you do not do that, for it (the birth of the child) is something ordained. Muhammad (one of the narrators) said: (The words) La 'alaykum (there is no harm) implies its Prohibition.


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Book 008, Number 3377:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that mention was made of 'azl in the presence of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) whereupon he said: Why do you practise it? They said: There is a man whose wife has to suckle the child, and if that person has a sexual intercourse with her (she may conceive) which he does not like, and there is another person who has a slave-girl and he has a sexual intercourse with her, but he does not like her to have conception so that she may not become Umm Walad, whereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: There is no harm if you do not do that, for that (the birth of the child) is something pre- ordained. Ibn 'Aun said: I made a mention of this hadith to Hasan, and he said: By Allah, (it seems) as if there is upbraiding in it (for 'azl).


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Book 008, Number 3378:
Ibn 'Aun reported: I reported to Muhammad on the authority of Ibrahim the hadith reported by 'Abd al-Rahmann b. Bishr (the hadith concerning 'azl), where- upon he said: That (hadith) Abd al-Rahman b. Bishr had narrated to me (also).


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Book 008, Number 3379:
Ma'bad b. Sirin said to Abu Sa'id (Allah be pleased with him): Did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) making a mention of something in regard to al-'azl? Thereupon he said: Yes. The rest (of the hadith is the same)


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Book 008, Number 3380:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported: Mention was made about al-'azl in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereupon he said: Why any one of you practises it? (He did not say: One of you should not do it), for there is no created soul, whose creator is not Allah.


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Book 008, Number 3381:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about 'azl, whereupon he said: The child does not come from all the liquid (sermen) and when Allah intends to create anything nothing can prevent it (from coming into existence).


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Book 008, Number 3382:
A hadith like this has been transmitted by Abu Sa'id from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him).


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Book 008, Number 3383:
Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported that a man came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: I have a slave-girl who is our servant and she carries water for us and I have intercourse with her, but I do not want her to conceive. He said: Practise 'azl, if you so like, but what is decreed for her will come to her. The person stayed back (for some time) and then came and said: The girl has become pregnant, whereupon he said: I told you what was decreed for her would come to her.


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Book 008, Number 3384:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported that a person asked Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) saying: I have a slave-girl and I practise 'azl with her, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: This cannot prevent that which Allah has decreed. The person then came (after some time) and said: Messenger of Allah, the slave-girl about whom I talked to you has conceived, whereupon Allah's Messeuger (may peace be upon him) said: I am the servant of Allah and His Messenger.


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Book 008, Number 3385:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported: A person came to Allah's Apostle (the rest of the hadith is the same).


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Book 008, Number 3386:
Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported: We used to practise 'azl while the Qur'an was revealed (during the days when the Holy Prophet was alive).


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Book 008, Number 3387:
Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported: We used to practise 'azl during the life of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him).


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Book 008, Number 3388:
Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported: We used to practise 'azl during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). This (the news of this practise) reached Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), and he did not forbid us.


How sick can you get?

.
 
Satanic Verses

Qasim said:
"...However the Words of the Quran are directly from God, therefore there is nothing incomplete about that."

Including the Satanic Verses? What about the other verses Muhammad "forgot"??

:-?
 
Qasim786 said:
If the Hadith says that you can have intercourse before marriage, then we must question its authenticity. Any hadith that does not go in accordance with the Quranic laws, is not authentic.



Whether or not the hadith in question are in keeping with the Quran I don't know.

However, If hadith X isn't in accordance with the Quran, that doesn't prove it to be not authentic.

You may choose to assume this, but you can't expect non-Muslims to assume this.
 
History shows that Muslims have followed this disgusting tradition of raping captured women. Muhammad did it. His followers did it. You cannot escape it... it is even recorded in your own "authentic" Hadith.

There is no issue of Rape here at all. None of the issues at any point hint to rape. They are concerning the issue of azl, a form of contraception that was used. It should be made clear that they were made ask for permission to wed the slave-women from thier owners which the Quran affirms. The Quran also affirms that these women are to be believing women (i.e not idolators) and that we must first see to it that the women believes. (Note you cant be forced to believe, otherwise the person hasnt truly believed). Then and only then is intercourse allowed, and the whle issue here is contraception with your wives.


Including the Satanic Verses? What about the other verses Muhammad "forgot"??

What Satanic verses? Thats another lie to promote hate against Islam and the Prophet Muhammed (p.b.u.h). Here are the real satanic verses!!

http://www.pitmanbuck.net/files3/Origin ... aphics.pdf
 
Including the Satanic Verses? What about the other verses Muhammad "forgot"??

http://www.livingislam.org/n/stcr_e.html

This will provide you information of the incident of satan interjecting in between the recitation of a surah.

It was also said that when he reached the words { Have ye thought upon Al Lat and Al Uzza? And Manat, the third, the other?} the pagans feared lest he would add something to mock their gods, so they hastened to interject and jeer so as to cover up what was coming next, as was their habit stated in the verse { Those who disbelieve say: Heed not this Quran, and drown the hearing of it; haply ye may conquer} (41:26). This act on their part was attributed to the devil as it was he that inspired it to them. Or, what was meant by the devil was the devil of humankind.... It was also said that the Prophet - Allah bless and greet him used to recite the Qur'an slowly, so that the devil lay in wait for one of the pauses and uttered the words in question with the same timbre of voice. Those that were near him heard it as if coming from the Prophet - Allah bless and greet him - and attributed it to him. This is the best of all interpretations."

ttp://www.livingislam.org/n/stcr_e.html
 
Whether or not the hadith in question are in keeping with the Quran I don't know.

However, If hadith X isn't in accordance with the Quran, that doesn't prove it to be not authentic.

You may choose to assume this, but you can't expect non-Muslims to assume this.

Yes i do expect non-muslims to assume this, just as i expect non muslims to respect the fact the Quran was not written by Muhammed, the words that are recorded of the Prophet are kept quite seperate in the Hadith. But i think the main problem isnt authenticity, but it is the way you want to understand something.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/w_main.htm#hijab
 
Qasim786 said:
There is no issue of Rape here at all. None of the issues at any point hint to rape.


They wanted to have sex with the women, and they also wanted to sell them. Where is marriage mentioned?


Does it say in the Quran that you can't have sex with a slave?





MUHAMMAD AND THE FEMALE CAPTIVES

(The article claims that the Quran allows sex with slaves)

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/femalecaptives.htm



"FROM THE QURAN - 70:22-30



"Not so the worshippers, who are steadfast in prayer, who set aside a due portion of their wealth for the beggar and for the deprived, who truly believe in the Day of Reckoning and dread the punishment of their Lord (for none is secure from the punishment of their Lord); who restrain their carnal desire (save with their wives and their slave girls, for these are lawful to them: he that lusts after other than these is a transgressor..."



This verse shows that Muslim men were allowed to have sex with their wives (of course) and their slave girls.


FROM THE QURAN - 23:5,6

"...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them..."


Again, Muslim men were allowed to have sexual relations with their wives and slave girls.


FROM THE QURAN - 4:24

"And all married women are forbidden unto you save those captives whom your right hand possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. (Muhammad Pickthall's English translation of the Quran).




This verse is one verse out of a long passage dealing with who Muslim men can marry or have sexual relations with. The phrase "captives whom your right hand possess", means the slave girls Muslim men own.

Note also that this passage deals with more than just marriage. In Sahih Muslim volume 2, #3432, the background context for this Quranic verse is given. It relates to the events at Autus, and it permitted the Muslim men to have sex with their female slaves.



FROM THE QURAN - 33:50

"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..."



This verse is for Muhammad. Supposedly, God allows Muhammad to have sex with his slave girls.



These verses establish that it was permissible for Muslim men to have sex with female slaves."
 
Qasim786 said:
Yes i do expect non-muslims to assume this, just as i expect non muslims to respect the fact the Quran was not written by Muhammed


You cannot reasonably expect this.
 
They wanted to have sex with the women, and they also wanted to sell them. Where is marriage mentioned?

So does that make it rape? The fact that Marriage is not mentioned is probably because it is not necessary and is assumed that we already know this.

Allah states in Surah 4:24 - " Also (Prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess..."

This is regarding the women you choose to marry. They cannot choose those who are already married, except the those 'whom your right hands possess' which does not mean those that the Muslim own: “Yusuf Ali Commentary 540: That is, captives taken in a Jihad. "Your right hands" does not necessarily mean she has been assigned to you, or it is your property. All captures in war belong to the community, they are " yours in that sense. If you seek such a person in marriage, do it from know base motives. Safeguard your faith and see that she too does believe..."

In other words slaves are lawful for marriage for you.

verse 25: "If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women. They may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what Is reasonable...if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for free women..."

Does it say in the Quran that you can't have sex with a slave?

The Quran Clearly states that you marry the women first as i have stated above and this makes the slave free and her status becomes the same as that of your marriage to a freewoman with regards to rights. The Quran also says that you should marry 'desiring, chastity, not lust. in verse 24 (Surah 4) (Read the footnotes, if you have them)

Surah 70: Verse 30 again explains that intimacy is allowed with wives of course and with captives. However, wives and captives are words used independantly here to show that captives of war may be married as such. There status is lower to that of the free wives until they are free. This institution of the captives of war is now obsolete. Such inferiority of status, as there was, was in the status of captivity, not in the status of marriage as such, in which there are no degrees except in local customs, which Islam does not recognise. (Yusuf Ali Footnote)

In short Marriage to captives raised them to freedom. However since it does not exist anymore, it would not be relevant today.
 
Actually, Jesus was a Ku Klux Klan member. Since the Muslims think Jesus is who they want him to be, then Jesus can be who I want him to be also because I say so. Since they can make up history, then so can I. If the Muslims think it's rational that Jesus is a member of a group that lived long after he died, then by their thinking, so can I say that Jesus was a member of the Ku Klux Klan who lived thousands of years after he died. Rational thinking has to be thrown out the window to believe what they believe.
 
Rape of the captives taken in Jihad

The Hadith are there.... for all to see and be disgusted about. History shows that Muslims have followed this disgusting tradition of raping captured women. Muhammad did it. His followers did it. You cannot escape it... it is even recorded in your own "authentic" Hadith.
  • "... Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. "
The women's HUSBANDS were still alive!! And these thugs wanted to RAPE them. Muhammad allowed it. He is sick and warped.

:o

Now to expose the lies of Qasim, why did he not quote the commentary of Yusuf Ali (#537) in which he says:
  • "Whom you right hand possess - i.e. captives in a JIHAD or war under the orders of the righteous Imam against those who persecute faith. In such cases formal hostility dissolves civil rights. Yusuf Ali - #537
ABSOLUTELY. These thugs RAPED the women WHILE their husbands were still there! THAT is totally against any reasonable civil rights.

IF you disagree Qasim, why not put yourself in the WOMAN'S position? Their tribe is overrun by Muhammad's thugs and while their husbands are still alive, the thugs rape them but debate whether to perform AL AZL (i.e. INCOMPLETE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE - COITUS INTERRUPTUS).


How sick and warped!

:o
 
Abrogation of the practice of raping female captives while their husbands were still alive

Qasim said:
This institution of the captives of war is now obsolete. Such inferiority of status, as there was, was in the status of captivity, not in the status of marriage as such, in which there are no degrees except in local customs, which Islam does not recognise. (Yusuf Ali Footnote)

In short Marriage to captives raised them to freedom. However since it does not exist anymore, it would not be relevant today.

When were these surah from the Quran abrogated? Prove your point....

:-?

(For those unfamiliar with this concept of ABROGATION, let me explain. Abrogation is another Muslim trick to help them try and explain the contradictions in the Quran. The concept of "abrogation" is that Allah chose to reveal ayahs (verses) in the Quran that supersede/obsolete earlier revelation in the same Quran.)

:roll:
 
Satanic Verses

Qasim said:
"...However the Words of the Quran are directly from Allah, therefore there is nothing incomplete about that."
Gary: Including the Satanic Verses? What about the other verses Muhammad "forgot"??

Qasim said:
What Satanic verses?
Gary: Were your Muslim scholars also telling lies? Read on.. see what they say.

Ibn Ishaq said:
The complete account of Muhammad speaking the Satanic verses as recorded by Ibn Ishaq.

Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of Medina from M. b. Ka`b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw that his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from Allah he longed that there should come to him from Allah a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed for it and it was dear to him. Then Allah sent down "By the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire," and when he reached His words "Have you thought of al-Lat and al-`Uzza and Manat the third, the others" (Sura 53:1-20), Satan, when he was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it (sc. reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq (Numidian cranes which fly at a great height) whose intercession is approved". When the Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and they listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or slip, and when he reached the prostration and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated, except al-Walid b. al-Mughira who was an old man who could not do so, so he took a handful of dirt from the valley and bent over it. Then the people dispersed and the Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, "Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved".

The news reached the prophet's companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said , "What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from Allah and you have said what He did not say to you." The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of Allah. So Allah sent down (a revelation), for he was merciful to him comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So Allah annulled what Satan had suggested and Allah established His verses i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. Then Allah sent down: "We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions into his longing. But Allah will annul what Satan has suggested. Then Allah will establish his verses, Allah being knowing and wise" (Sura 22:51/52). Thus Allah relieved his prophet's grief, and made him feel safe from his fears and annulled what Satan had suggested in the words used above about their gods by his revelation "Are yours the males and His the females? That were indeed an unfair division" (i.e. most unjust); "they are nothing by names which your fathers gave them" as far as the words "to whom he pleases and accepts" (Sura 53:19-27), i.e. how can the intercession of their gods avail with Him?

When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet's tongue came from Allah, Quraysh said: "Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else."

Source: Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, (Translated by A. Guillaume. Karachi: Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 165-167) -here-
:o

Comment

It must be remembered that it is the Qur'an which records that Satan tampered with Muhammad's wishes and made interjections into what he recited (Qur'an 22:52). And it is Ibn Ishaq, Wakidi, Ibn Sa'd, and Tabari who recorded and accepted the details of this event.

If this story was told by people opposed to Islam, then it would be fair to question whether they had invented this story as a way of discrediting Muhammad.

But it is inconceivable that Ibn Ishaq, Wakidi, Ibn Sa'd, and Tabari would invent a story about Muhammad accepting idols.

Reference
:-?
 
So Mohammed taught originally that fornication was wrong--except in the case of slaves and captured women!

Then he receives a later revelation countermanding the first!

MMMM, sounds like a couple of other cults I know of that had revelations of "truth" and the later received furhter "light" countermanding the original revelation!

Anyone else think of such other cults?
 
Qasim786 said:
They wanted to have sex with the women, and they also wanted to sell them. Where is marriage mentioned?

So does that make it rape? The fact that Marriage is not mentioned is probably because it is not necessary and is assumed that we already know this.


If they want to sell them, why would we assume marriage?
 
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