Joe Mizzi doesn't know...

[Gary]

Protestant Arguments against Praying for the Dead

Not only is it unbiblical to pray to the dead, but we believe that it is also wrong to pray for the dead. There are several Protestant objections to praying for the dead. The most important ones are the following:

(1) Praying for the dead contradicts the separation of death

• The Bible speaks of death as separating the living from the departed. Paul speaks of death as “departure†from earth and being with Christ (Philippians 1:23; cf. 2 Timothy 4:6). It is when we “leave the body†(2 Corinthians 5:7). Luke 16:26 speaks of a “great chasm†between the living and the dead. Paul speaks of death separating loved ones until they are reunited at the resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). In all of Scripture, death is a veil that seals off the living from the dead. Any attempted contacts with the dead are not only futile but forbidden (Deuteronomy 18:11) because of the possibility of demonic deception (cf. 1 Timothy 4:1).

(2) Praying for the dead contradicts the example of David

• When David’s baby was alive but seriously ill he prayed for it fervently. However, when the baby died he ceased praying for it immediately. When asked why, he replied, “While the child was living, I fasted and wept, thinking, ‘Perhaps the Lord will grant me the child’s life.’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to be with him, but he will not return to me†(2 Samuel 12:22-23). It is clear that David, who as a prophet of God claimed that “the spirit of the Lord spoke through me†(2 Samuel 23:2), believed that prayers for the dead were ineffective. For if he believed that any prayer for the dead was effective, he certainly would have attempted it in his most desperate hour. In fact, in all of his many spiritual writings in the Psalms about how to communicate with God, David never once even suggested that we pray for the dead.

(3) Praying for the dead contradicts the example of Jesus

• When Jesus lost his close friend Lazarus by death he never prayed to God for him. He simply resurrected him with the command “Lazarus, come forth!†Rather than pray for the dead, Jesus prayed for the living. At Lazarus’s graveside Jesus prayed, “Father, I thank you for hearing me. I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me†(John 11:41-42). Ironically, many reverse this by weeping for the living who stray and praying for the dead, while Jesus wept for the dead (John 11:35) and prayed for the living (John 11:41-42). The practice of praying for the dead is not the only time that humanly initiated religious practice has made void the teaching of Sacred Scripture (cf. Matthew. 15:6).

(4) Praying for the dead contradicts the sacrifice of Christ

• As we have already noted, the whole idea that our prayers or works can do anything on behalf of the dead is contrary to the all-sufficiency of the completed work of Christ on the Cross. His mediation and intercession for them (1 John 2:1-2) are more than sufficient. When Jesus died and rose again the work of salvation was “finished†(John 19:30; cf. John 17:4; Hebrews 10:14). When he purged our sins he “took his seat†at the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3) since there was absolutely nothing more to do for our salvation. The whole concept of praying for the dead “that they might be freed from sin†is an insult to the finished work of Christ, “who freed us from our sins by his blood†(Revelation 1:5). Jesus not only obtained salvation from all our sins at one time but, as our great high priest (Hebrews 7), he alone implements it for all time.

Source: Geisler, N. L., & MacKenzie, R. E. (1995). Roman Catholics and Evangelicals - Agreements and differences (Pages 353-354).

:angel:

 

[Relic]

From the St. Joseph Sunday Missal Prayerbook and Hymnal


Treasury of Prayers

Prayer to Mary
O Jesus living in Mary, come and live in your servants, in the spirit of your holiness, in the fullness of your power, in the perfection of your ways, in the truth of your mysteries, Reign in us over all adverse powers by your Holy Spirit, and for the glory of the Father, Amen.

My question: If this is a "Prayer to Mary", then why is it addressing Jesus living in Mary? The prayer is to Jesus but the title is Prayer to Mary. That is confusing to me.



Prayer To St. Joseph
O Blessed St. Joseph, loving father and faithful guardian of Jesus, and devoted spouse of the Mother of God, I beg you to offer God the Father his divine Son, bathed in blood on the Cross. Through the holy Name of Jesus obtain for us from the Father the favor we implore.

My question: HUH? :o


Another...

Prayer to St. Joseph
Guardian of virgins, and holy father Joseph, to whose faithful custody, Christ Jesus, innocence itself, and Mary, Virgin of virgins, were omitted; I beg you, by these dear pledges, Jesus and Mary, that, being preserved from all uncleanness, I may with spotless mind, pure heart and chaste body, ever serve Jesus and Mary most chastely all the days of my life. Amen.

No question, but my response is just this: :o

---------------------------------

Hymn no. 84
Immaculate Mary

1. Immaculate Mary, thy praises we sing,
Who reignest in splendor with Jesus, our King.

Refrain:
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!

2. In heaven, the blessed thy glory proclaim,
On earth, we thy children invoke thy fair name.

Refrain:

3. Thy name is our power, thy virtues our light,
Thy love is our comfort, thy pleading our might.

Refrain:

4. We pray for our mother, the Church upon earth;
And bless, dearest Lady, the land of our birth.

Refrain:

--------------------------------

and another...



Hymn no. 87
Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones

1. Ye watchers and ye holy ones,
Bright seraphs, cherubim, and thrones,
Raise the glad strain, Al le lu ia
Cry out domninions, prince-domes,
powers, Virtues, arch angels,
angels choirs, Al le lu ia,

al le lu ia, al le lu ia,
al le lu ia, al le lu ia,

2. Respond, ye souls in end-less rest,
Ye patriarchs and prophets blest, Al le lu ia,
al le lu ia,
Ye holy twelve, ye martyrs strong,
All saints, triumphant,
raise the song: Al le lu ia,

al le lu ia, al le lu ia,
al le lu ia, al le lu ia,

3. O friends, in gladness let us sing,
All heaven's anthems echoing, Al le lu ia,
al le lu ia,
To God the Father, God the son,
And God the Spirit Three in one,
Al le lu ia,

al le lu ia, al le lu ia,
al le lu ia, al le lu ia,

-----------------------------
Well, If that last hymn is not invoking the dead. I don't know what is!
Scheesh! May as well have a séance! :o





Yep, This whole thread and the added message I am placing here,
just reminds me of some of the reasons why I left the Catholic church.
and it's partly because I finally came to realize they are in denial of the fact they prayto the spirits as they are represented in all those icons (statues).
And when a religion is in denial of the truth of what they are doing as rutualistic and as praise and worship, I don't take part in believing their doctrine, nor do I accept their church services as they do.
Not only do they pray to the saints, they praise them in song and prayer, and use them as their route to Jesus, along with directly praying to Jesus in other hyms and prayers.
It is just all messed up, and not in accordance to the bible.

Those are some of the reasons why I left. And I might add, some of the "major" reasons.

I was born and baptized into the Catholic religion. Even as a child of 7 years old, when I was kneeling in church, I thought it strange to pray to Mary and Joseph and the Saint, in spite of what they taught us about not praying to anyone but Jesus, and that He was the only mediator for us in heaven. And when I learned the 10 commandments. I was in shock to see that the church broke the commandment to not have any graven images. And they made us children kneel down and prayed to the spirit of Mary and Joseph and the rest of the saints.

If I am not mistaken. It depends on the church as to which of the saint aside from Mary and Joseph that they give homage to in prayer. If the Church is named for the saint that is the saint they give prayer to.

I once belonged to several different churches, St. Elizabeth, in the late 50's, and St. Margaret, in the 60's. St. Wenceslas, in the early 70's, St. James and St. Ignatius , on occasion thereafter. Each of those churches gave homage to that particular saint the church was named after, along with homage to Mary and Joseph.

Also, so many parishioners keep the St. Christopher medal around their necks, and in their cars, to ask him to pray for the protection from having an accident.

And if you want your pets protected, you pray to St. Frances to intervene for protection for your pets. St. Theresa for health and so on....

No, they don't look to Jesus directly. NOt all of the time but a vast majority of the time, they go through the saints to get to Jesus. And to me, that is just way off kilter! That is one of the reasons why I left the Catholic Church back in the 70's

Also, the Catholic bible is too far off from the King James version.
Read the following article for more detail: http://www.christianhospitality.org/TR-info.htm

 

[YESHUA]

Mary, Queen of heaven?
Yep, even comes from the Scriptures!

Rev 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne.

In this passage, the Son waiting to be devoured by the dragon is typically taken to be Jesus, thus, the woman must be Mary....

I am sorry to burst your bobles but the queen of heaven is an idol as clear stated here, and has nothing to do with Mary the mother of JESUS and Gary is right its about Israel not Mary

Jeremiah 44

16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.
17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,
21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?
22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.

Jeremiah 7

18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger
shalom and love in the name of YESHUA soon to return
chana