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SolaScriptura said:
I have shown from Greek authorities, who have said very clearly, that the Greek translated as "hate" in Romans
Click to expand...
What do they say about the Hebrew translated in Malachi 1? Does that mean “love less”? :lol

Malachi 1:1-5 [NLT]
This is the message that the LORD gave to Israel through the prophet Malachi. "I have always loved you," says the LORD. But you retort, "Really? How have you loved us?" And the LORD replies, "This is how I showed my love for you: I loved your ancestor Jacob, but I rejected his brother, Esau, and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau's inheritance into a desert for jackals." Esau's descendants in Edom may say, "We have been shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins." But the LORD of Heaven's Armies replies, "They may try to rebuild, but I will demolish them again. Their country will be known as 'The Land of Wickedness,' and their people will be called 'The People with Whom the LORD Is Forever Angry.' When you see the destruction for yourselves, you will say, 'Truly, the LORD's greatness reaches far beyond Israel's borders!'"​
 
atpollard said:
FYI, the 12 steps of AA:
  1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
  2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
  3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
  4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
  5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
  6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
  7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
  8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
  9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
  10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
  11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
  12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

So, actually, alcoholics are like other sinners … we turn to GOD to change us, not our own WILL.
Click to expand...
Most aa use higher power not the God of the Bible
 
atpollard said:
What do they say about the Hebrew translated in Malachi 1? Does that mean “love less”? :lol

Malachi 1:1-5 [NLT]​
This is the message that the LORD gave to Israel through the prophet Malachi. "I have always loved you," says the LORD. But you retort, "Really? How have you loved us?" And the LORD replies, "This is how I showed my love for you: I loved your ancestor Jacob, but I rejected his brother, Esau, and devastated his hill country. I turned Esau's inheritance into a desert for jackals." Esau's descendants in Edom may say, "We have been shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins." But the LORD of Heaven's Armies replies, "They may try to rebuild, but I will demolish them again. Their country will be known as 'The Land of Wickedness,' and their people will be called 'The People with Whom the LORD Is Forever Angry.' When you see the destruction for yourselves, you will say, 'Truly, the LORD's greatness reaches far beyond Israel's borders!'"​
Click to expand...

Typical Calvinist who uses a couple of texts from THOUSANDS to build their false teachings
 
brightfame52 said:
Im going to ask you one more time to please show where I said God hates all the unregenerate ?
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I say the God says He hates the unregenerate where 'unregenerate' is someone He will never 'regenerate'.

Deuteronomy 18:12 For everyone who does these things is utterly repulsive to the Lord;

Deuteronomy 25:16 For everyone who does such things, everyone who acts unjustly [without personal integrity] is utterly repulsive to the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 2:4-9; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; Malachi 1:3-4; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20

Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil [person] dwells with You. 5 The boastful and the arrogant will not stand in Your sight; You hate all who do evil. 6 You destroy those who tell lies; The Lord detests and rejects the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Psalm 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. KJV

Psalm 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And His soul hates the [malevolent] one who loves violence. 6 Upon the wicked (godless) He will rain coals of fire; Fire and brimstone and a dreadful scorching wind will be the portion of their cup [of doom]. 7 For the Lord is [absolutely] righteous, He loves righteousness (virtue, morality, justice); The upright shall see His face.

Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You cannot look favorably on wickedness.
 
GodsGrace said:
I'm not here to discuss philosophical free will.
Click to expand...
Well, you're the one that brought up the subject of FREE WILL. Then you set up your straw man argument by not defining the term properly; rather, you created a partial truth about the meaning of the term and went on to substantiate your ideas based on a faulty foundation.
So, I assumed you were not deliberately using a faulty definition and used multiple legitimate sources for the correct understanding of the term as postulated by Arminians/R.C.s

One more time ... Free Will as defined by those who think they can saved themselves as: the ability to decide to believe the salvific gospel in such a way as to not be externally influenced. So, if you're going to use the term you should use it correctly rather than make up your own definition.
 
jasonc said:
Most aa use higher power not the God of the Bible
Click to expand...
Granted, but I happened to Google the 12 steps and this was the first one that appeared on my search … so SOME apparently realize that the “higher power” has a name and are not afraid to call Him “God”.

Irrespective,
  1. WE know who the “higher power“ is (and the name of His Son).
  2. “higher power” changes nothing in the point that they acknowledge their inability to effect change from within by the power of their will alone … they need an EXTERNAL “higher power” to change them from without [just like any other sinner].
 
Fastfredy0

I say the God says He hates the unregenerate where 'unregenerate' is someone He will never 'regenerate'.
Click to expand...

Yeah but thats different, and its not what the poster accused me of. They are saying that I stated that God hates all the unregenerate, but they were dishonest in making such a accusation, for I know that God didnt hate the elect when they were unregenerate, He loved them, He never hated them. Now its incumbent on that poster to produce the statement that I supposedly made, that God hates all the unregenerate.
 
atpollard said:
Granted, but I happened to Google the 12 steps and this was the first one that appeared on my search … so SOME apparently realize that the “higher power” has a name and are not afraid to call Him “God”.

Irrespective,
  1. WE know who the “higher power“ is (and the name of His Son).
  2. “higher power” changes nothing in the point that they acknowledge their inability to effect change from within by the power of their will alone … they need an EXTERNAL “higher power” to change them from without [just like any other sinner].
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to argue just because I attend PTSD meetings which will include twelve steps said higher power is anything ..your wife ,a car .


Often it's find that inner strength to change .. anything but mentioning an accountablity to a God for all truth is subjective in this .


I got the ick from a pa who also led PTSD meetings and heard his anti God rant .yet he says that church will help prevent depression etc .
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Well, you're the one that brought up the subject of FREE WILL. Then you set up your straw man argument by not defining the term properly; rather, you created a partial truth about the meaning of the term and went on to substantiate your ideas based on a faulty foundation.
So, I assumed you were not deliberately using a faulty definition and used multiple legitimate sources for the correct understanding of the term as postulated by Arminians/R.C.s

One more time ... Free Will as defined by those who think they can saved themselves as: the ability to decide to believe the salvific gospel in such a way as to not be externally influenced. So, if you're going to use the term you should use it correctly rather than make up your own definition.
Click to expand...
You know FF, We've been back and forth on this for maybe 2 years now.

You dislike speaking about free will and would rather just discuss the made up idea that maybe I don't know what it means.

EVERYTHING we do is influenced in one way or another.

Now if you want to discuss FREE WILL as defined biblically, which is the ONLY way I'll discuss it,
I'm willing.

If not, just say you don't WISH to understand it and we're still good.

Hmmmm. Maybe God doesn't want you to understand what free will is?

I know what compatiblist free will is.....

How come you don't know what libertarian free will is?

2nd try on that question.
 
atpollard said:
FYI, the 12 steps of AA:
  1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
  2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
  3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
  4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
  5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
  6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
  7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
  8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
  9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
  10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
  11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
  12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

So, actually, alcoholics are like other sinners … we turn to GOD to change us, not our own WILL.
Click to expand...
I think we agree.

I must say however, that some atheists also could quit smoking or drinking.
Surely our will is involved in some way?
I just think Christians have it easier because of the Holy Spirit.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
I read some of what you wrote and came to the conclusion that I was wasting my time. Unsubstantiated and confusing statements about this and that IMO. I'm surprised atpollard has continued the discussion as long as he did.
Click to expand...

simply put, NONE of you so called "reformed" are HONEST enough to admit that Jesus' own words in John 3:16-18 is clear testimony to the FACT, that God LOVES THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WITH A SAVING LOVE! John Calvin, who you guys CLAIM to follow, is HONEST enough to say that verse 16 refers to EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION! Can you be HONEST as Calvin was?
 
SolaScriptura said:
simply put, NONE of you so called "reformed" are HONEST enough to admit that Jesus' own words in John 3:16-18 is clear testimony to the FACT, that God LOVES THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WITH A SAVING LOVE! John Calvin, who you guys CLAIM to follow, is HONEST enough to say that verse 16 refers to EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION! Can you be HONEST as Calvin was?
Click to expand...
Thats fabricated, nowhere does it say God loved the whole human race. Its dishonesty to project that. Its crystal clear God doesnt Love Esau Rom 9:13 nor the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5
 
brightfame52 said:
If anyone lied its you, that says nothing about God loves all mankind, it says He so loved the world. Did HeLove Esau Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Or does He Love the workers of Iniquity ? Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Click to expand...

Jacob was a liar , a deceiver , a thief and a supplanter .
If you are clueless as to why God Loved Jacob, a worker of iniquity , which you say should NOT be the case , but yet is the case,
Then you are equally clueless as to why God hated Esau ?

Your spiritual discernment being threadbare at best .
 
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