Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[MarkT]

You claim Jesus can't be God unless humans are devils? No connection there whatsoever.


Devils are not "humans." They are unseen adverse spirits, duly noted prior from Eph. 2:2 as an example. No one "sees" Satan do this for another example: Mark 4:15.

Jesus did address, openly, devils in mankind and 'cast them out' of mankind (in some cases, in other cases NOT, with Judas for example), showing and proving they are not the same entities as mankind. Too many scriptural citings to list, but Luke 8:30-32 is one of the more dramatic examples of "many" devils having "entered" into one man. Luke 11:24 is another example. So is 2 Cor. 12:7 or 1 John 3:8.



When we have a very OBVIOUS devil to observe there is no excuse to get the parties confused making Judas the same as Satan who "entered" Judas.

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Though I disagree with JLB on a lot of his positions at least he's figured out that Satan speaking from Peter didn't make Peter Satan, Matt. 16:23, anymore than it made Judas Satan for essentially the same activity of Satan and Peter as Satan and Judas above.

Both events are examples of the reality of Mark 4:15.

You can believe Jesus was a man and the Son of God, but you cannot believe Judas was a man and a devil? I don't see how you can believe one thing and not the other.

Judas was not some unseen entity or a spirit. Nevertheless he was a devil. To those who had believed in him Jesus said, You are of your father the devil. So it depends on your Father. If God is your Father, then you are his son. If the Devil is your father, then you are his son ie. a devil.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
Please quote the verse that says that judas was blotted out of the book of life. It's only your opinion, but not the fact.

As carefully as I can read this, I STILL don't find anything about Judas being blotted out of the book of life.

And...if there EVER was such an event, I'm sure Judas would have filled the bill. And this passage would have been a PERFECT place to make that claim. Yet, it doesn't.


Quoting verses randomly doesn't prove your claims.

BOOK OF LIFE
("book of life"): The phrase is derived from the custom of the ancients of keeping genealogical records (Neh 7:5,64; 12:22-23) and of enrolling citizens for various purposes (Jer 22:30; Ezek 13:9). So God is represented as having a record of all who are under His special care and guardianship. To be blotted out of the Book of Life is to be cut off from God's favor, to suffer an untimely death, as when Moses pleads that he be blotted out of God's book-that he might die, rather than that Israel should be destroyed (Ex 32:32; Ps 69:28). In the New Testament it is the record of the righteous who are to inherit eternal life (Phil 4:3; Rev 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 21:27). In the apocalyptic writings there is the conception of a book or of books, that are in God's keeping, and upon which the final judgment is to be based (Dan 7:10; 12:1; Rev 20:12,15; compare Book Jub 39:6 ; 19:9 ). See APOCALYPSE ; BLOT ; BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE ; JUDGMENT, LAST .

(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


I'll guide my understanding from scholarly sources.

More of your opinion with no scripture.

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69

Please stop denying the truth of the scriptures.


Show me a scripture whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?


My bible says these are the signs that follow those who believe.


17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:17

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4

• Please explain how Judas Iscariot, could preach the Gospel to the lost, cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead yet not have faith in Jesus Christ.

• Please explain how Judas Iscariot, could preach the Gospel to the lost, cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead yet not believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

Look up at post #1. You're up to the task.

Here is my entire post # 1.

Please point out the line whereby I said Judas Iscariot was saved?

I would like to examine some scriptures that involve Judas Iscariot, to see if we can learn from his mistakes, and avoid falling away from Christ, as we see the Day of the Lord approaching.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.
• This was spoken to Judas Iscariot, before he betrayed Jesus.
• Judas, like the rest of us, had a choice to make during his life.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples(altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, and let no one live in it’;
and, ‘Let another take his office.’ Acts 1:16-20

• Let their dwelling place be desolate; Let no one live in their tents.26 For they persecute the ones You have struck, And talk of the grief of those You have wounded.27 Add iniquity to their iniquity, And let them not come into Your righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. Psalm 69:25-28

Judas Iscariot ended up being "blotted out" of the book of life, as he did not overcome, but fell away.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No he didn't call Peter, Satan. Jesus was addressing Satan. Perhaps Satan whispered in Peter's ear.

Sorry bro, the scriptures teach us the truth.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23


Jesus spoke these words to Peter.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Sorry bro, the scriptures teach us the truth.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23


Jesus spoke these words to Peter.



JLB

So? The words came out of Peter's mouth. Nevertheless, it was Satan who caused him to say those things. Jesus didn't say get thee behind me Peter.

 

[smaller]

You can believe Jesus was a man and the Son of God, but you cannot believe Judas was a man and a devil? I don't see how you can believe one thing and not the other.

Your reasoning isnt' connecting. No, I don't believe the scriptures present people are devils. Scriptures DO present an overlap of the parties though. It's one of the most interesting presentations of the scriptures, that 'invisible' entities are at work IN man that are not the person. Mark 4:15 and scores of other examples.

Judas was not some unseen entity or a spirit.

We know, beyond any uncertainty, from scriptures, that Satan entered Judas. There's your devil and the unseen entity. When Jesus looked at Judas He didn't see only Judas.

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:27, same.

Judas didn't "enter" himself.

How anyone CAN'T see "the devil" in these scriptures is kind of beyond me, and then to claim Judas was the devil when thee devil is staring us straight in the face from scriptures really isn't going to cut it.

Nevertheless he was a devil.

Then I'd have to presume you also believe Peter was a devil? Matt. 16:23. You can keep running around in circles OR address the facts from scripture I'm citing for these points.

 

[smaller]

So? The words came out of Peter's mouth. Nevertheless, it was Satan who caused him to say those things. Jesus didn't say get thee behind me Peter.

Why don't you accept the same fact for Judas?

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

 

[smaller]

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

Jesus spoke these words to Peter.

Peter wasn't Satan. Jesus spoke to Peter and addressed Satan IN Peter: Get thee behind me SATAN.

Peter wasn't Satan.

I understand that it's hard for most to see TWO different parties in the same pair of shoes but it IS a solid fact of scriptures.

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

 

[MarkT]

Why don't you accept the same fact for Judas?

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Two different things. Satan gave Peter what to say while Judas was a devil.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Here Jesus is speaking to those who had believed in him who now wanted to kill him. They were devils too, having his nature.

 

[smaller]

Two different things. Satan gave Peter what to say while Judas was a devil.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Here Jesus is speaking to those who had believed in him who now wanted to kill him. They were devils too, having his nature.

Devils are devils.

If we understand The Author it's quite simple to understand for Peter, Judas and the leaders of the temple:

Mark 4:15
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Eph. 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The interesting part of this real life real time drama is that devils won't accept this fact, because IT'S TRUE and they can't speak truth. So that puts one party at odds with this sight, immediately, even now.

 

[Jim Parker]

You can believe Jesus was a man and the Son of God, but you cannot believe Judas was a man and a devil?

Absolutely.
The scripture says that the Logos (Word) was God who took on flesh and became man.
It is the teaching of the Church that Jesus' had both a human and a divine nature. (Chalcedon)
There is nothing anywhere in scripture to support the notion that a human being was also a fallen angel. Neither was such a notion ever taught by the Church.

Satan gave Peter what to say while Judas was a devil.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Here Jesus is speaking to those who had believed in him who now wanted to kill him. They were devils too, having his nature.

(sigh)
Are you at all familiar with the word "metaphor"?
Do you know what the ancient meaning of the word "nature" is?
Not to both, apparently.

Do you really think that those people were devils running around masquerading as people?

This sounds like some of the nonsense that the ignorant false prophetess Ellen G. White was babbling back in the 1850s.

 

[FreeGrace]

To those who had believed in him Jesus said, You are of your father the devil.

Incorrect. John plainly described "many Jews" as having believed in Him.
John 8:30-31
30 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him. 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciple NIV

The immediate context for what Jesus said begins at v.13:
The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." NIV

From there, whenever these unbelieving Pharisees responded to Jesus, we see the words "they" or "them":
v.19, 21, 25, 27. Then we read of what Jesus told those who HAD believed on Him in v.30,31. And v.32 was addressed to those who HAD believed in Him.

So, from v.33 on, we read the response of the unbelieving Pharisees to what Jesus told the new believers and Jesus' response to them.

We know that Jesus was not addressing the new believers because of what He said in v.45:
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

So, either Jesus and John disagreed on those described in v.30-31, or there were 2 groups; a group of new believers and the larger group of unbelieving Pharisees.

So, Jesus never told the "many who put their faith in Him" that their father was the devil.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
Please quote the verse that says that judas was blotted out of the book of life. It's only your opinion, but not the fact.

More of your opinion with no scripture.

Why would I put Scripture in a question about the lack of Scripture in your claims?

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69

OK, so it seems your view is that Peter was clairvoyant. Did Peter know the hearts of others? Of course not.

Please stop denying the truth of the scriptures.

Back atcha.

Show me a scripture whereby Jesus empowered an unbeliever, to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils?

Your own verses show that. Judas was never saved. The Bible does NOT say that he was. Ever. Or that he believed in Christ. Ever.

My bible says these are the signs that follow those who believe.

OK, so that is your only "proof".

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:17

Please check out any number of study Bibles and you'll find that Mark 16:9-20 wasn't in "the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses". iow, those verses were added later on, and not inspired.

btw, it is your practice to handle poisonous snakes? Or drink deadly poison? The verse IMMEDIATELY after the verse you've quoted (v.18) says this:
Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." NIV

I wonder why v.18 wasn't included in your quote?

• Please explain how Judas Iscariot, could preach the Gospel to the lost, cast out devils, heal the sick, and raise the dead yet not believe in Jesus Christ.

I'm still waiting for any verse that tells us that Judas ever believed or was ever saved.

The OP is mere speculation and opinion, and that without any clear evidence.

 

[MarkT]

Incorrect. John plainly described "many Jews" as having believed in Him.
John 8:30-31
30 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him. 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciple NIV

The immediate context for what Jesus said begins at v.13:
The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid." NIV

From there, whenever these unbelieving Pharisees responded to Jesus, we see the words "they" or "them":
v.19, 21, 25, 27. Then we read of what Jesus told those who HAD believed on Him in v.30,31. And v.32 was addressed to those who HAD believed in Him.

So, from v.33 on, we read the response of the unbelieving Pharisees to what Jesus told the new believers and Jesus' response to them.

We know that Jesus was not addressing the new believers because of what He said in v.45:
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

So, either Jesus and John disagreed on those described in v.30-31, or there were 2 groups; a group of new believers and the larger group of unbelieving Pharisees.

So, Jesus never told the "many who put their faith in Him" that their father was the devil.

There would be no point in saying they had believed in him, past tense, if they still did. No point in even saying it. Jesus said it to the Jews who had believed in him. The Jews answered him. The Jews took up stones to throw at him.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
Please quote the verse that says that judas was blotted out of the book of life. It's only your opinion, but not the fact.
Why would I put Scripture in a question about the lack of Scripture in your claims?

I have asked you repeatedly to post the scripture, whereby Jesus empowered unbeliever's to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

Yet, you have not.

Why?

I have shown from the scriptures that Healing the sick, and casting out devils, are sign's that follow, those "who believe".

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:17


You, on the other hand have produced no scriptures to back up your unbiblical theory, though I have repeatly asked for you too, since I have posted many, supporting my position.

I will address no more of your unfounded, unbiblical claims.

OK, so it seems your view is that Peter was clairvoyant. Did Peter know the hearts of others? Of course not.

The scripture is what we use to establish doctrinal truth.

Here is what the scripture says:

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69

Did Judas continue to follow the Lord, even when other disciples turned back from following Him.


This would be the perfect place to say... Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God, except Judas who never believed, except it doesn't.


Judas believed for a while then fell away, just exactly like the example Jesus gave us, from the parable of the sower.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

Are you now saying, that those in this group who believed for a while, were not saved, though they believed?

Are you saying it's impossible for a person to believe for a while, then fall away?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Back atcha.

You would have to provide a scripture, to prove Judas never believed, though he walked with Jesus for 3 1/2 years, and was promoted to an Apostle, then empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, then I would have to deny this scripture, in order for your claim to be true.


JLB

 

[JLB]

OK, so that is your only "proof".

No, this is just one of the many scriptures that prove Judas believed for a while, then fell away.

My OP, is loaded with scriptural proof that Judas did in fact believe for a while.



More of your denial of the scriptures, that I provided.

I would like to examine some scriptures that involve Judas Iscariot, to see if we can learn from his mistakes, and avoid falling away from Christ, as we see the Day of the Lord approaching.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• Judas could have reigned with Jesus Christ, had he continued with the Lord.
• This was spoken to Judas Iscariot, before he betrayed Jesus.
• Judas, like the rest of us, had a choice to make during his life.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples(altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, and let no one live in it’;
and, ‘Let another take his office.’ Acts 1:16-20

• Let their dwelling place be desolate; Let no one live in their tents.26 For they persecute the ones You have struck, And talk of the grief of those You have wounded.27 Add iniquity to their iniquity, And let them not come into Your righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous. Psalm 69:25-28

Judas Iscariot ended up being "blotted out" of the book of life, as he did not overcome, but fell away.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. Matthew 10:1-4

Judas was "His disciple", and one of "His sheep", at one time, before he fell away.


Judas Iscariot was a disciple of Jesus Christ, for 3 years, and was promoted to Apostle, as he "heard His Voice", "followed Him", as was "known by Jesus Christ", as a "trusted friend", before Judas betrayed Him.


Judas Iscariot was called one of "His sheep", but became lost. Judas was sent out as a "sheep" among wolves, in which he was not a wolf at that time, but became a wolf when he betrayed Jesus.

16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:16

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Judas chose to turn away from Christ, in a time of temptation, as no one "snatched him" away from Christ.


Judas heard His Voice, and followed Him... for a while.

JLB

 

[JLB]

So? The words came out of Peter's mouth. Nevertheless, it was Satan who caused him to say those things. Jesus didn't say get thee behind me Peter.

Jesus was speaking to Peter.

Peter didn't want Jesus to be taken and murdered.

Satan, on the other hand, working in concert with the Chief Priest's and Pharisee's, did want Jesus to be Murdered.


Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. 3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. Luke 22:1-4


Why would Satan, whom you allege was speaking through Peter, want to stop Jesus from being killed, when all along, he wanted Jesus killed?


Jesus was addressing Peter, who didn't want Jesus to be killed... But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”



Peter was opposing the will of God for Jesus.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

There would be no point in saying they had believed in him, past tense, if they still did.

John didn't use the past tense. There is no such Greek tense. He used the aorist, which indicates believing in a point in time.

No point in even saying it.

I agree that there was no point in your saying it.

Jesus said it to the Jews who had believed in him. The Jews answered him.

So your view is that Jesus and John described the same Jews quite differently. ok

[QUOT3E] The Jews took up stones to throw at him.[/QUOTE]
The unbelieving ones.

If the Jews of v.30 later on in the discussion ceased to believe in Him, why didn't John make that point? would have been easy enough.

The point of the passage is that while Jesus was addressing a crowd of unbelieving Jews, some (many) in fact did believe in Him. But it was the unbelieving Jews who reacted (v.33) to what Jesus told the believing Jews in v.32.

That's the only way to make any sense of the passage.

Your view has believing Jews being described as the devil's children and as unbelievers. How does that make sense?

 

[smaller]

Judas was not merely a disciple, but a called out by Jesus, Apostle.

It's pretty hard to make a claim that an Apostle wasn't a believer. Matt. 10:1-4 and other citings. Peter in Acts 1 describes Judas as having both obtained part of the ministry and had the position of "bishoprick."

We might also ask ourselves which twelve Apostles this refers to?

Rev. 21:
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.