Jude 6-7 2 peter 2 4

[holy999]

can you say me it

 

[TrevorL]

me it

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again "holy999",

me it

As I explained on another thread, I was in error with my silly response, above, and I regretted it some time after the event. I am not sure if your expression "can you say me it" is your cryptic way of asking for discussion on the subject, or simply your lack of knowledge of normal English, or you are translating from another language almost literally, and the expression reflects how one would say this in your own language. But as usual, there is most probably another explanation, and you may not be willing to share this information.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

This is in error. Angels and Tartarus are Pagan beliefs. Also, the great day of judgement has not taken place yet.
2 Peter 2:4. New International Version​

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment;​

Footnotes​

1. 2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
2. 2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons

Jude 5-6. New International Version​

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[a] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the (angels / messengers) who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. (Parable for death.)​

Footnotes​

1. Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus

Jude
5. I will remind you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and
He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment.


Book of Jude: Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Footnotes:
Jude 1:1 Other mss read sanctified
Jude 1:5 Other mss read Jesus/Joshua, God, or God Christ
Jude 1:5 Other mss place first after remind you
Jude 1:7 Lit and went after other flesh
Jude 1:12 Or like spots
Jude 1:14 Or came
Jude 1:15 Lit convict all
Jude 1:19 Or natural
Jude 1:25 Other mss omit through Jesus Christ our Lord
Jude 1:25 Other mss omit before all time


Book of Jude: New International Version (NIV)
Footnotes:
Jude 1:1 Or by; or in
Jude 1:4 Or individuals who were marked out for condemnation
Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus
Jude 1:9 Jude is alluding to the Jewish Testament of Moses (approximately the first century AD.).
Jude 1:15 From the Jewish First Book of Enoch (approximately the first century b.c.)
Jude 1:23 The Greek manuscripts of these verses vary at several points.



Jude 1:9 is a Gnostic insertion. Enoch, Moses, and Elijah ascended into heaven and did not die. Michael is a flesh and blood man born in the last days before the Two Witnesses come.

 

[for_his_glory]

​

This is in error. Angels and Tartarus are Pagan beliefs. Also, the great day of judgement has not taken place yet.​

2 Peter 2:4. New International Version​

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment;​

Footnotes​

1. 2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
2. 2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons

Jude 5-6. New International Version​

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[a] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the (angels / messengers) who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. (Parable for death.)​

Footnotes​

1. Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus

Jude
5. I will remind you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and
He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment.


Book of Jude: Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Footnotes:
Jude 1:1 Other mss read sanctified
Jude 1:5 Other mss read Jesus/Joshua, God, or God Christ
Jude 1:5 Other mss place first after remind you
Jude 1:7 Lit and went after other flesh
Jude 1:12 Or like spots
Jude 1:14 Or came
Jude 1:15 Lit convict all
Jude 1:19 Or natural
Jude 1:25 Other mss omit through Jesus Christ our Lord
Jude 1:25 Other mss omit before all time


Book of Jude: New International Version (NIV)
Footnotes:
Jude 1:1 Or by; or in
Jude 1:4 Or individuals who were marked out for condemnation
Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus
Jude 1:9 Jude is alluding to the Jewish Testament of Moses (approximately the first century AD.).
Jude 1:15 From the Jewish First Book of Enoch (approximately the first century b.c.)
Jude 1:23 The Greek manuscripts of these verses vary at several points.



Jude 1:9 is a Gnostic insertion. Enoch, Moses, and Elijah ascended into heaven and did not die. Michael is a flesh and blood man born in the last days before the Two Witnesses come.

Does this mean you do not believe in Angels or hell?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell


Hebrew# 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek# 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek# 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem,figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek# 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.​

Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek word ταρταρόω

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29. It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelites never used chariots till the time of David.

 

[CherubRam]

Does this mean you do not believe in Angels or hell?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell


Hebrew# 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek# 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek# 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem,figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek# 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.​

Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek word ταρταρόω

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29. It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelites never used chariots till the time of David.

The beliefs in Angels, Hell, Hades, Tartarus, and Cross, are from Greek mythology; they do not have there origin in Orthodox Judaism, or with the first Christian. They were added to the bible by the Catholics.

Angel is the Greek goddess messenger of Hell. Christ died on a a (stake / pole) and not a Cross. Hades is a Greek god. And the list goes on and on.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings CherubRam,

The beliefs in Angels, .... are from Greek mythology

Angels are present in the Garden of Eden, and they appeared on numerous occasions in the record of Genesis, a book endorsed by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

Greetings CherubRam,

Angels are present in the Garden of Eden, and they appeared on numerous occasions in the record of Genesis, a book endorsed by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

The word "angel" is not in the original Hebrew text.

The Hebrew word "mal'akh" (מַלְאָךְ) never, ever, translates as angel.

Greek goddess called Angel

In Greek mythology, Angelos (Ancient Greek: Ἄγγελος) or Angelia (Ἀγγελία) was a daughter of Zeus and Hera who became known as a chthonic deity. The world of the dead (Hell) is her realm of influence, and was assigned an epithet katachthonia ("she of the underworld").



In Ancient Greek; angels known as ἄγγελος (ángelos). In Latin: angels are called "angelus."

(Greek mythology) The daughter of Zeus and Hera, and goddess of the Underworld.

ANGELIA was the personified spirit (daimona) of messages, tidings and proclamations. The English word "angel" derives the same ancient Greek word.



Angel Angelos Adopted biblical term

The Greek term Angelos did not originate with Judaism or Christianity, but was ordinary Greek, in which it can designate either a human messenger or a heavenly “divine” one. The term was adopted into the 3rd century B.C. Greek Old Testament of the bible as a translation in place of the Hebrew word “malach,” and thereby became part of ancient Jewish and later ancient Christian language also.

Angelos. (Greek mythology) Daughter of Zeus and Hera, and a goddess of the Underworld. Angel was the messenger of Hell.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings CherubRam,

The beliefs in Angels,.... are from Greek mythology; they do not have there origin in Orthodox Judaism, or with the first Christian. They were added to the bible by the Catholics.

The word "angel" is not in the original Hebrew text.

That is because the word "angel" is an English word and it is found in nearly every English Bible.
Genesis 22:11 (KJV): And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Genesis 22:11 (RSV): But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”
Genesis 22:11 (NIV84): But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
Genesis 22:11 (NASB95): But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Genesis 22:11 (NIV84): But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
Genesis 22:11 (ESV): But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Genesis 22:11 (NET): But the LORD’s angel called to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am!” he answered.

The Hebrew word "mal'akh" (מַלְאָךְ) never, ever, translates as angel.

Well, every translation that I quoted above DOES translate the Hebrew word "malákh" as angel on numerous occasions.
The English word in Genesis 22:11 is translated from the Hebrew word:
4397 מַלְאָךְ [malʾak /mal·awk/] n m. From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; 214 occurrences; AV translates as “angel” 111 times, “messenger” 98 times, “ambassadors” four times, and “variant” once. 1 messenger, representative. 1A messenger. 1B angel. 1C the theophanic angel.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Going back to your original statement, how do you verify the following, apart from your fiddling with words and their derivation into English:

The beliefs in Angels...... are from Greek mythology; they do not have there origin in Orthodox Judaism, or with the first Christian. They were added to the bible by the Catholics.

I do not see any intervention here by the Catholics in the original text and meaning of Genesis 22:11. My impression is that possibly, by some faulty or twisted logic, that you do not believe in the existence of Yahweh's messengers.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CherubRam]

Greetings CherubRam,


That is because the word "angel" is an English word and it is found in nearly every English Bible.
Genesis 22:11 (KJV): And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Genesis 22:11 (RSV): But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”
Genesis 22:11 (NIV84): But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
Genesis 22:11 (NASB95): But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Genesis 22:11 (NIV84): But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
Genesis 22:11 (ESV): But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Genesis 22:11 (NET): But the LORD’s angel called to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am!” he answered.


Well, every translation that I quoted above DOES translate the Hebrew word "malákh" as angel on numerous occasions.
The English word in Genesis 22:11 is translated from the Hebrew word:
4397 מַלְאָךְ [malʾak /mal·awk/] n m. From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; 214 occurrences; AV translates as “angel” 111 times, “messenger” 98 times, “ambassadors” four times, and “variant” once. 1 messenger, representative. 1A messenger. 1B angel. 1C the theophanic angel.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Going back to your original statement, how do you verify the following, apart from your fiddling with words and their derivation into English:

I do not see any intervention here by the Catholics in the original text and meaning of Genesis 22:11. My impression is that possibly, by some faulty or twisted logic, that you do not believe in the existence of Yahweh's messengers.

Kind regards
Trevor

There are messengers, but there are no angels. The Hebrew word "malak" translates as "messenger" into English.
The term was adopted into the 3rd century B.C. Greek Old Testament of the bible as a translation in place of the Hebrew word “malach.”

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CherubRam,

There are messengers, but there are no angels. The Hebrew word "malak" translates as "messenger" into English.
The term was adopted into the 3rd century B.C. Greek Old Testament of the bible as a translation in place of the Hebrew word “malach.”

I suggest that you are ONLY playing with the derivation of a word rather than what the Bible says about the Angels. I have no trouble with the word "Angel" in English as it has a wider range of meaning than simply a "messenger". The Angels have on occasions given a Message from God, for example, Gabriel with Zechariah and Mary. But on other occasions they are active in doing God's work.

Isaiah 63:9 (KJV): In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

Hosea 12:2–6 (KJV): 2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. 3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: 4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; 5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. 6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.

They used to call places to treat mentally sick at "lunatic asylums", but now these are called mental hospitals. No one really thought in the 1930s that the inmates were struck by the moon.

I give you 1 out of 10 for your observation on the basic meaning of the Hebrew word "malach", and it is not very interesting about the actual Greek source of a similar word, and I give you 9 out of 10 for your misleading comments.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[for_his_glory]

The beliefs in Angels, Hell, Hades, Tartarus, and Cross, are from Greek mythology; they do not have there origin in Orthodox Judaism, or with the first Christian. They were added to the bible by the Catholics.

Angel is the Greek goddess messenger of Hell. Christ died on a a (stake / pole) and not a Cross. Hades is a Greek god. And the list goes on and on.

WOW!!!

 

[for_his_glory]

The word "angel" is not in the original Hebrew text.

The Hebrew word "mal'akh" (מַלְאָךְ) never, ever, translates as angel.

Greek goddess called Angel

In Greek mythology, Angelos (Ancient Greek: Ἄγγελος) or Angelia (Ἀγγελία) was a daughter of Zeus and Hera who became known as a chthonic deity. The world of the dead (Hell) is her realm of influence, and was assigned an epithet katachthonia ("she of the underworld").



In Ancient Greek; angels known as ἄγγελος (ángelos). In Latin: angels are called "angelus."

(Greek mythology) The daughter of Zeus and Hera, and goddess of the Underworld.

ANGELIA was the personified spirit (daimona) of messages, tidings and proclamations. The English word "angel" derives the same ancient Greek word.



Angel Angelos Adopted biblical term

The Greek term Angelos did not originate with Judaism or Christianity, but was ordinary Greek, in which it can designate either a human messenger or a heavenly “divine” one. The term was adopted into the 3rd century B.C. Greek Old Testament of the bible as a translation in place of the Hebrew word “malach,” and thereby became part of ancient Jewish and later ancient Christian language also.

Angelos. (Greek mythology) Daughter of Zeus and Hera, and a goddess of the Underworld. Angel was the messenger of Hell.

Seriously, is there any part of the Bible you believe!!! First you say Satan isn't real and now angels are not real. Next are you going to tell us Jesus is not real?

 

[for_his_glory]

The beliefs in Angels, Hell, Hades, Tartarus, and Cross, are from Greek mythology; they do not have there origin in Orthodox Judaism, or with the first Christian. They were added to the bible by the Catholics.

Angel is the Greek goddess messenger of Hell. Christ died on a a (stake / pole) and not a Cross. Hades is a Greek god. And the list goes on and on.

Oops sorry, I forgot you hold to the traditional teachings of Orthodox Judaism and don't believe in the NT, but only Torah.