Just silly

[thessalonian]

Imigican,

Your posts are beginning to remind me of Ginger's. Sorry Ginger but I call em like I see them. Do tell what store you got that broad brush from so that I might quickly paint my house with one like it.

Tell me how many trips you've made to Africa to see that only one meal was being served?

By the way the priests at our parish get $400 a month for all their personal needs. Their room and board are taken care of.

Blessings

 

[ownedbyhim]

Buildings

Yeah, kind of reminiscent of Christ isn't it?

Nice post, Imagican.

I agree, buildings CAN be an idol, but they needn't be. It goes to the reason we're attending fellowship. To make a beloved pastor/minister/priest rich and have as many of the trappings as possible, or to serve and minister to God and His possessions(people), as well as bring more people to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. But if we're not doing the latter in a home church, we're wasting our time there, too. I've attended both, and seen both fail in some point or another. It's the desire to please God that matters, period.

Frank

 

[Imagican]

Ok Thess, and now admit that I already stated that I have little understanding of the CC. But, even though your Priest may only get 400.00 a month for pay, the Vatican is one of most wealthy Estates on the planet.

I do know that the last Baptist church that I attended was in the process of hiring a 'new music director'. This wasn't one of the new 'mega churches'. Probably seating for a thousand but no more than a few hundred at any given gathering. They were planing on paying a new 'full time' music director 120,000 a year.

Now, I don't know about you people. but music just DON'T seem THAT important to me to warrant such a hefty salary. And if this is what the music director is making, what must the pastor be receiving? Let he that will be 'greatest' among you be he who serves his brothers MOST.

Boy, for someone to deserve a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, I would think that he would be in need of living as a servant in each of the congregations homes at least one day a year. Wouldn't leave much time for the fishing trips in Alaska or that vacation in Hawaii now would it.

I have witnessed the showing of a video in which the missionary for a church was sent to Africa to film the poor hungry children down there and to show the 'group' from the church feed these children ONE MEAL. No telling how much money it cost in film crew, airline tickets, hotels, cars, etc,,,,,,, to show the church members how well their money was being used in their ministry. You guys may fall for this crap, I don't. I am well able to think outside of what someone states to see what is behind the scenes.

The temple is now WITHIN US. God no longer dwells in a temple. I have seen the corruption and just because there are those that refuse to see it doesn't make it non-existant.

Thess, I understand that your religion created this NEED for the massive churches. No tellling how much in life and liberty was expended to build the ornate temples throughout Europe in the 'name of God'. But even so, this does in NO WAY even indicate that this is what was 'supposed to be done'. The example no doubt, but righteous example, not from a Biblical perspective.

 

[thessalonian]

The temple is now WITHIN US. God no longer dwells in a temple. I have seen the corruption and just because there are those that refuse to see it doesn't make it non-existant.

Since when does acknowledging that there is corruption require one to say that everyone in a Church building is corrupt. Amen God dwells in us. What's your point. That does not mean buildings are prohibited by the Bible. It's a total non-sequitor. Ameature eisegesis seems to be your passion.

 

[Sothenes]

You know guys, I have been to your churches, (not as familiar with the CC Thess), and I have yet to see the one that does ALL the good that they are lauded with. I see pastors that live better than the majority of the congregation, I even see music directors 'living it up' compared to the congregation and I have NEVER heard a pastor at the end of a sermon ask if ANYONE NEEDS anything. I have witnessed only the opposite. The pastors begging for money and offering NOTHING but guilt for those unable to give as ordered.

My Church does a lot for people. When the Iron Curton fell, there were boxes, boxes and boxes of Bibles for communist countries placed in front of the altar because the pastor wanted the fellowship to know where the money was going. It is a group effort and I'm offended with people comparing carnal others to the true believers. They will all get a reward whether it is good or bad and God will sort the sheep from the goats. You are comparing believers with individuals who don't believe in storing up for the Kingdom of Heaven because they only believe in the "here and now" and they don't believe in the "then" because where your heart is there will be your treasure.

 

[NRoof]

Henry,
I have read your posts over and over and have yet to see you answer the question that Nocturnal_Principal_X has asked so here it is again.

Give us, including myself, clear biblical proof that church buildings are against God and His word.

Baring your answer to this I would like you or anyone else to evaluate what I am about to write and tell me what and why you think it is wrong.

Here is a basic overview of the Church I attend.

The building will hold around 250 people in the sanctuary with space for an additional 100 or so down stairs.

They have a Sunday school before the service (both adult and children’s)
They have Sunday morning service.
They have Sunday evening service.
They have Wednesday evening service.
They have small groups get together at other times so the building is being utilized.

People are encouraged to attend cell groups (home groups) to further study Gods word. At present there are about 15 of these groups and they are looking to start more.

The pastor is paid for the work he does which is fair and just in Gods eyes as he does this full time.

To the best of my knowledge all other positions are on a volunteer basis and thus are not paid. This includes the worship leader, band members and sound crew. Our sound person does sound for a living (outside of Chruch) and usually donates his old equipment if it is needed.

With an attendance of around 100 to 150 people we raise around $40,000/year for missions work. Most people have also adopted children through Children International and new children are posted every year and there are never any left over. We also take in food for the needy any many other such activities.

We also have around 6 elders with the pastor being the head elder. He is not a dictator and thus is held accountable to the other elders first and then the congregation.

Yes a portion of the normal tithe (for a lack of a better thing to call it) goes to building maintenance and associated bills. It also pays the pastors salary. The rest is used to reach other in the community in the form of free events to evangelize to local people. These events usually include free food.

Whenever there is a need such as a natural disaster a special love offering is taken for that specific reason.

There is more if I took the time to really think about it but this is good for now.

Please understand I have been to larger Churches that are as you have described and I am no longer there for the very reasons you mentioned and more.

I have not written this to boast about the Church I attend as they do have their problem but simply to illustrate the good that can come from a larger gathering.


To further help the discussion I am including a list of pros and cons for both sides of the discussion. This is not complete but serves as a starting point.

Home Church:
Pros: Personal study enabling discussions and better understanding of Gods word.
Cons: Limited ability to grow due to space requirements. Limited funds for outreach programs.

Traditional Church:
Pros: Ability to grow in size allowing new people to attend.
Cons: lack of personal interaction (asking questions) during service. Overhead of building expenses

Combination of above (Traditional Church with cell (home) groups
Best of both worlds

 

[gingercat]

Yes a portion of the normal tithe (for a lack of a better thing to call it) goes to building maintenance and associated bills. It also pays the pastors salary. The rest is used to reach other in the community in the form of free events to evangelize to local people. These events usually include free food.

May I ask how much % of your budget goes to evangelism and helping needy?

thank you

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Imagican,

I think you have brought up some very good points about the extravagance of MANY churches, and sadly it seems America in particular. I agree that the amount of money that is spent “making a church beautiful†is ridiculous. I also agree that some pastors and other types of ministers (such as music ministers) get paid way too much money. I personally believe that the majority of money that a church spends should be spent on evangelizing people OUTSIDE the church buildings.

I don’t think it is a coincidence that I am taking an Evangelism class at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and the major topic of discussion has pretty much been the need for Christians to Evangelize OUTSIDE the walls of church buildings. The sad reality is MANY churches in America not only fail at preaching the Word of God but they also fail at Evangelizing.

Now I want to make this clearâ€â€even though I believe what I just said I am not trying to say that there are not MANY churches in America who DO preach the Word of God and Evangelize OUTSIDE the walls of the church building. Even though I feel that is the case as well, the bottom line is there does exist the reality that MANY churches DO NOT preach the Word of God and Evangelize OUTSIDE the walls of the church building.

Anyway, I say all that to say that a lot of what you say, Imagican, is true about MANY churches today. However, that reality does not negate church buildings. Church buildings can become idols but the reality is that anything in this world can become an idol if one puts something above God. Church buildings in and of themselves are not wrong, just like (good) desires in and of themselves are not wrongâ€â€just like computers and the internet in and of themselves are not wrong. What is wrong is the people who inhabit them. The simple fact is that whenever a group of people, or one for that matter, gets involved in anything (such as a church building or the internet) the sins in the hearts of people can cause problems to whatever is being used by people.

I hope the above makes sense. The bottom line is that so far no one has proven that church buildings are wrong. No Biblical proof or anything else has proven that church buildings are wrong. What has been shown, though, is the various problems that and failings of people involved in church buildings. Interesting thing is I could almost say “What has been shown is that the church (body of believers) is failing.†That fact shows me that we desperately need Jesus Christ and our focus should be more on Him.

 

[NRoof]

Yes a portion of the normal tithe (for a lack of a better thing to call it) goes to building maintenance and associated bills. It also pays the pastors salary. The rest is used to reach other in the community in the form of free events to evangelize to local people. These events usually include free food.

May I ask how much % of your budget goes to evangelism and helping needy?

thank you

I would love to answer this but unfortunately I don't know the exact figures and couldn't even give a rough idea. I will say that the events cost less than you might think because members will volunteer their time which is often more valuable than money.

The bottom line is I do understand a portion of what Henry is talking about.
The first Church I went to was a "Seeker Friendly" Church. They presented the gosple but only the feel good parts. At that time it was the only way my wife could get me to attend so in that regards God used them to his glory. After a while it became apparent to me that it was more about the numbers and the money over who was actually being saved. They wanted to build a bigger and better building so money was being put aside for that. The pastors salary grew larger than mine (and I was in the top 10% of wage earners) and he got a housing and car allowance. This along with other reasons caused to me leave and find another place to worship God.

Along my travels I came across a pastor who only got paid $1.00/yr. The building was paid for and any maintenance or upgrades were done by the members of the Church. I left there only because I felt God wanted me somewhere else.

Bottom line:
There are many Churches who are in it for the money.
There are also Churches big, medium and small who want nothing more than to do Gods will.

The problem I have with all of this is when people say something is wrong when it can’t be supported by Gods word.

Jesus himself taught in synagogues, homes and fields. Not once did he say “why do you worship in this building? Do you not know my father is not here? Go to your homes and worship thereâ€Â. God is wherever believers are. There is nothing inherently wrong with worshiping in a large building. The problem arises when man puts his needs above that of God. That can happen in a large building, in a home Church or in a field. I personally prefer not to put limits on what God can do and where he can do it.

 

[gingercat]

I would love to answer this but unfortunately I don't know the exact figures and couldn't even give a rough idea. I will say that the events cost less than you might think because members will volunteer their time which is often more valuable than money.

I don't understand why you don't know the exact figures. Everything about church activities and spending should be open to all members. Pastors' salary and building up keep is not cheap. We do have many brethren in need over seas. We are wealthy compare to second and third world; we should be able to meet their needs.

 

[NRoof]

I would love to answer this but unfortunately I don't know the exact figures and couldn't even give a rough idea. I will say that the events cost less than you might think because members will volunteer their time which is often more valuable than money.

I don't understand why you don't know the exact figures. Everything about church activities and spending should be open to all members. Pastors' salary and building up keep is not cheap. We do have many brethren in need over seas. We are wealthy compare to second and third world; we should be able to meet their needs.

What is so hard to understand?
I have more important things to do than to worry about how every penny is spent. If I wanted I could and would get the figures as they have no secrets and I am free to get the information. I know all the elders personally and trust them to use the money in a manner appropriate to Gods will.

 

[gingercat]

What is so hard to understand?
I have more important things to do than to worry about how every penny is spent. If I wanted I could and would get the figures as they have no secrets and I am free to get the information. I know all the elders personally and trust them to use the money in a manner appropriate to Gods will.[/quote]

There are many, many churches exployting Jesus' name. What you are doing is testimony for the Lord.

You should have last year's annual report. How do we know you are telling the whole truth? All you have to do is ask church secretary.

 

[SavedSinner]

I was always told to beware those who think they are the only ones right. :

Truth is only one. There are hundreds of denominations.

Yes, I know. And they all can't be wrong, can they?
I am sorry, but there is no way I am going to think that people getting together for fellowship is a sin. That is ludicrous. Since I have started posting at Christian boards I have heard some things I never heard before. Such as dismissing Paul's teachings, that there is no Trinity, that there are people who believe that Jesus is not God (outside of the JW, that is), and now this. It makes me dizzy. I nearly started questioning my own faith.
I am not a Catholic, and don't plan on converting to one, but when I was having trouble a few weeks ago, the ones who helped me were mostly Catholics. I may not agree with all their doctrines, but I am not going to dismiss them as true Christians either.
Every week there is another person on these boards saying something that people do regularly is a sin, or a false doctrine. I feel bad for the non-believers on this board, because they see Christians at each others throats, and think that is what Christians do. I just hope we have not lost them completely.
Well, I have preached enough for tonight.
God bless everyone on this boards. God bless those who disagree with me, God bless to non-believers (although they do not believe in that), God bless those who do agree with me. ( I better stop, I am beginning to sound like Tiny Tim)

I could not have said it better myself.....This is why I'm
attending an Episcopal church for now.

 

[Imagican]

Noc,

I can't help but admire your humility and understanding. Something we could all use more of. Hats off to ya my friend.

I must agree that I have NOT visited ALL the churches. The statements that I make are generalizations of what I have experienced. Most of them are SO caught up in their 'bills' and organization that there is really little time for the individual.

I for one am not in need of individual guidance so much as some that I have witnessed and I just wonder if this isn't the 'body's' FIRST job. To help those brothers and sisters that could use guidance on an individual basis. For a 'strong body' is much more capable than a 'weak' one.

I am quite sure that there are some churches that are trying to do the 'right thing', I just haven't found one yet.

And Christine, is it NOT possible that they ALL have it 'wrong'. I mean we have the example of God destroying every descendant of Adam and Eve except ONE MAN and his family. Do you really think that when this world as we know is destroyed again that this time God will destroy a planet full of 'good' people? Those that are following His will? Not likely.

I contend that since each is at odds with all others, there is something fundamentally WRONG with them ALL.

Thess, believes that 'his church' is the ONLY true church. Funny, but don't they ALL teach something similar? I believe that through my studies the conclusion is that each has erred from the truth and this is the reason for the lack of miracles and Spirit that The Church once exhibited. I know that many will reject what I have offered by then many rejected MOST of the truth throughout history. Nothing new.

So, Henry. I don't know if EVERY church is contradictory to the Bible. I believe that they probably are. But I can certainly agree that you have offered insight that many will refuse to 'see' no matter how much evidence you offer. They were raised this way or have 'bought into it' to the degree that the church is 'their god' and nothing that one could offer would open their eyes.

 

[Vic C.]

So, Henry. I don't know if EVERY church is contradictory to the Bible. I believe that they probably are. But I can certainly agree that you have offered insight that many will refuse to 'see' no matter how much evidence you offer. They were raised this way or have 'bought into it' to the degree that the church is 'their god' and nothing that one could offer would open their eyes.

I am with NPX when he says this:

The bottom line is that so far no one has proven that church buildings are wrong. No Biblical proof or anything else has proven that church buildings are wrong. What has been shown, though, is the various problems that and failings of people involved in church buildings. Interesting thing is I could almost say “What has been shown is that the church (body of believers) is failing.†That fact shows me that we desperately need Jesus Christ and our focus should be more on Him.

Total agreement. In fact, we haven't even scratched the surface of how UNBiblical home groups can be as well. I personally only know of problems within the home church movement through people I know that have attended...and left, so I won't pass out hearsay.

At this point, I'd say we've reached an impasse and we'd be better off moving on to more pressing problems within the Body. Meeting in buildings is NOT one of them.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess, believes that 'his church' is the ONLY true church.

Nope. Not quite. I believe that Catholicism is the fullness of the truth. Not the same thing. There is truth in all Churches, yet Christ says "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free and you shall worship in spirit and in truth. Yet I've never met a non-catholic who, admitting that his Church had some errors, could tell me what they were. That's not knowing the truth. I know the truth because the truth is the word become flesh and he built a Church which is the pillar and support of the truth and the gates of hell shall not prevail against that Church. It has a 2000 year track record so far. How about your one man show (I've never met anyone who believes like you do) Imigican? Could you point out your errors to us Imigican or do you not know the truth.

 

[Sothenes]

Could you point out your errors to us Imigican or do you not know the truth.

I have a list of qualification questions testing the Biblical knowledge of prospective pastors and it is used in an actual church. For those of you which believe that home fellowships are the correct form of church, do you all mind having your pastors take the test at the same time so we can see how well they do? I imagine that anyone could pass the test in a couple of hours but I would be willing to wait two days. I would like the pastors associated with people of this forum to take the test at the same time and post their results so we can all judge how they do. They don't have to post their real names as I wouldn't try to embarass anyone. The truth is that it should be an easy test if they teach the word of God but it would be very difficult if they aren't qualified. Any takers? Anyone want to put their money where their mouth is? There will be a time limit of two days and everyone has to take it at the same time though it shouldn't take them more than a couple of hours. The only reason someone wouldn't cooperate is because their pastors aren't qualified.

 

[Henry]

I have given proof that Church buildings are unbilical, this idea that I would have to visit them all, or that there are house churches who are not biblical does not change the fact that church buildings do not exist in the bible.

The more important thing is not the building, but the practice. What really matters is that the early church was taught to practice and live out church life in certain ways, which simply can not be done in a church building.

Sure there are house churches (well they call themselves that) who are off base, there are always going to be some lose screws about. But so what? And there are some buildings churches who do some good things, but so what?

What matters is what the bible teaches and what I see here is a group of people who CHOOSE to ignore the bible for traditions. Jesus talked about that, having made void the word of God for their traditions.

All I have asked for is that any of you show me a church building a pastor or any thing at all that resembles a traditional church meeting. But nothing...

Can't do it, becuase they are not there so you are left with making excuses like "well my pastor aint like that"

You guy are deffending tradtions and do not even know it.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

I have given proof that Church buildings are unbiblical

No you have not. You merely quoted verses that talk about home churches but you did not show biblical proof that AGAINST church buildings. You failed yet again you failed to:

Give us, including myself, clear biblical proof that church buildings are against God and His word.

The fact that the Bible does not mention church buildings does not make them wrong. If one where to follow that logic then they would have to also conclude that computer usage and internet usage is wrong as well. Why do I say that wellâ€â€computers and the internet are not mentioned in the Bible.

The topic is now locked.