B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
I always understand what is being said. Now if you guys would only understand ME you'd see the light
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I always understand what is being said. Now if you guys would only understand ME you'd see the light
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
Simple - they never spoke in tongues because there never was any such thing to begin with, and the tongues today are fake for the same reason. (The only difference being some believers today are TRYING to manifest it while the believers of the 1600's - 1800's basically were not)
Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is usually the truth. But you can't consider this because you are indebted to believe the bible at all costs. I, instead, am free to explore ALL possibilities.
D
D46
Guest
BradtheImpaler said:
How can it be interpreted if "no man understands this language"? And how do you know it's a real language?
[quote
Then some or all of the hearers have to understand what is being said, for how else would they know the speakers were "magnifying God"? If this example is the evidence, then how many qualify today?[/quote
b060]That's just what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:2 as indicated. It is an "unknown tonogue"...not French in a Spanish church or German in an English church. No man underestands what is being said. The spirit of God can intrepret what is being said through another person present. No one has to understand the message given. When it's intrepreted through another, however; all present will underestand as it will be given in whatever the language is, be it English or any other language of all those present.
Have no fear, AV, if you don't want the gift of tongues in your life, rest assured, you won't receive it.
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
I think I'll come to your church (incognito) jump up and give an interpretation when someone has a message in tongues. Course I'll just make it up, but it will in accordance with your church doctrine and will "glorify God" to your ears. How ya gonna know I made it up? Also, how will you know that the tongues that were spoken were a supernatural manifestation or just double-talk? (and how many times do I have to explain this before the light goes on? :roll: )
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
D46 said:
Interesting. Is AV missing out on something as you imply, D46? If so, WHAT - exactly - IS he missing out on? What wonderful experience do YOU have that AV doesn't?
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
AVBunyan said:
CORRECT! 'Tongues' ceased long ago ...just as the scriptures said they would. Anything that comes out of the mouths of Christians today other than a language they understand is ...well ...not scriptural.
If it were possible, I'm sure that Paul would be squirming in his grave by what the Pentecostal Church has done with his texts on 'tongue-speaking'. That is, they have built a doctrine around a MISINTERPRETATION of these scriptures! Not only that, they refuse to see the plain truth when it's presented to them since the 'warm and fuzzies' that they experience with this sham is too great to give up. It's a perversion and is almost as compelling - dare I say it - as sexu ...no, I daren't say it.
S
Solo
Guest
He could squirm on one side by what the Pentacostal Church is doing with tongues, and he can squirm on the other side by what the Seventh Day Adventists are doing with salvation, eternity, soul sleep, etc.SputnikBoy said:
You all are keeping him awake where he has no soul sleep! A doctrine refuted!
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
BradtheImpaler said:
No amount of explaining or the offering of biblical texts that glaringly refute 'Pentecostal tongues' will cause the light to go on in many. Accepting the truth and giving up 'tongues' is more a challenge than giving up smoking. Both become addictions that require 'a fix'.
BradtheImpaler said:
Brad - I know you are not trying to be a wise guy. For what it’s worth in some respects you are probably wise without even trying.
I think the problem that many naysayers have with tongues is that is commonly thought of in the context of Pentecostalism.
Now I have had pentecostal associations from a young age just as I have had association with many others you could call Christian but not of the Pentecostal stream. What I discovered is that there are those who are devout followers of Christ in both camps. Now while I view tongues as a spiritual gift in the context of the body of Christ I cannot deny that there are also those in the body who don’t see tongues in the same light as me. And of course there are those who recognise the validity of tongues but have never spoken in tongues.
Sadly though, it is in the Pentecostal stream that I see the excesses. The ‘name it - claim it’ brigade seem to want to do anything and everything ‘in the name of Jesus’ and if you haven’t got the ‘faith’ to believe it, then you are made to feel inferior by virtue of not receiving what they say God has for you. And that includes speaking in tongues – which many see as THE sign of salvation. I tell you it is real sad witnessing these ‘Christians’ who have created for themselves levels of spirituality according to the gift or gifts they believe they have had the ‘faith’ to receive.
Frankly, it sickens me because it has nothing to do with the righteousness that comes by faith.
In any case – getting back to discernment. Who has discernment? Not many unfortunately. Of course there are many in our churches (and forums) who believe they have all sorts of spiritual gifts, but to me where the fruit of the Spirit is not evident, I have to look closely at the tree. And if the manifestation of the so called gift edifies the flesh rather than edifying the body of Christ, then again I have to look closely at the source of the ‘gift.’
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Solo said:He could squirm on one side by what the Pentacostal Church is doing with tongues, and he can squirm on the other side by what the Seventh Day Adventists are doing with salvation, eternity, soul sleep, etc.SputnikBoy said:
It's up to me then, Solo, to make a case for myself when these other issues you mentioned are raised. The SDA Church - whether you agree or not - believes that a committed Christian will automatically keep the commands of God. The Bible ITSELF asks us to keep the commands of God. This is NOT an SDA doctrine. The Bible ITSELF points to the fact that the dead 'sleep' until the resurrection. This is NOT an SDA doctrine. The Bible ITSELF tells us that the unrighteous will perish. This is NOT an SDA doctrine.
'Tongue-speaking' is a separate issue and one that we need to return to. Countless people today are making a mockery of the scriptures by this practice. The 'charismatics' are those who 'seek a sign' and 'tongues' fulfills this for them. We were forewarned about 'this generation' (Luke 11:29). The other gifts of the Spirit are all but ignored for the one that is the 'phoniest' and easiest to counterfeit. AND - increasingly so these days - 'tongue-speaking' is becoming a SALVATION issue! This is how dangerous this evil is becoming. I used to believe that it was not of Satan. Now I'm not so sure.
You all are keeping him awake where he has no soul sleep! A doctrine refuted!
Did that make you feel clever? Okay.
A
Admiral
Guest
Excuse me, I know that I am new here...And I probably will cause some heavy resistance to my opinions....So, let me assure you that I am not trying to cause too many problems....Just comparing experiences....
Someone has described Tongues as a "bypassing the brain' and allowing the HS to control the mouth/speech processes without thinking....
I have a question....What is the difference between that and channeling? Christians know that channeling is of the devil as it allows a demon to control a person to voice the demons thoughts....
We know that the bible says that the devil will attempt to deciieve the very elect any way he can.... What is to prevent the devil from using this tongues from deception?
Let me tell you all about my God...My God is the God of Order. He says in the bible that all things need to be done in order...The experience of Speaking in Tongues is more chaos than order....You don't know what you are saying, someone else has to interpret what you are saying....that is chaos, folks...that is not truely 'speaking in tongues" as the bible describes it.
The only experience that satisfy the meaning of "speaking in tongues" is to be able to listen to a forgien language. I have seen that happen and know that this sort of thing happens today quietly in various places around the world. And when a person speaks in tongues, the unbeleiver can see and hear the foreign language and truely praise God for the message. This experience of speaking a foreign language satisfys all the requirements the bible describes as 'speaking in tongues'.
Otherwise, all you are doing is opening yourself up to the devil to move you away from God...
Ok, now, if'n you all will wait for me to put on my asbestos underwear, I will be ready for all the flames that are sure to be coming my way.... :-D
Someone has described Tongues as a "bypassing the brain' and allowing the HS to control the mouth/speech processes without thinking....
I have a question....What is the difference between that and channeling? Christians know that channeling is of the devil as it allows a demon to control a person to voice the demons thoughts....
We know that the bible says that the devil will attempt to deciieve the very elect any way he can.... What is to prevent the devil from using this tongues from deception?
Let me tell you all about my God...My God is the God of Order. He says in the bible that all things need to be done in order...The experience of Speaking in Tongues is more chaos than order....You don't know what you are saying, someone else has to interpret what you are saying....that is chaos, folks...that is not truely 'speaking in tongues" as the bible describes it.
The only experience that satisfy the meaning of "speaking in tongues" is to be able to listen to a forgien language. I have seen that happen and know that this sort of thing happens today quietly in various places around the world. And when a person speaks in tongues, the unbeleiver can see and hear the foreign language and truely praise God for the message. This experience of speaking a foreign language satisfys all the requirements the bible describes as 'speaking in tongues'.
Otherwise, all you are doing is opening yourself up to the devil to move you away from God...
Ok, now, if'n you all will wait for me to put on my asbestos underwear, I will be ready for all the flames that are sure to be coming my way.... :-D
To understand the outworking of the gift of tongues, it would be appropriate to reflect on the evidence of the experience, and the teachings and comments in scripture relating to it.
Mark records that just before Jesus ascended into heaven he appeared to his disciples and said to them,
"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
This is the only record of Jesus referring to ‘speaking in tongues,’ and there doesn't seem to be any special significance attributed to this gift.
After Jesus ascended to heaven, Luke records in the book of Acts, the inauguration of the Spirit.
“When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, ‘What does this mean?’â€Â
Peter stood up and addressed the crowd and said, “This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’â€Â
In the context of this phenomenon, the gift of tongues that was received by the apostles was the ability to speak to other nationals in their own native language. All those who spoke in tongues were Galileans, and yet the interpretation was received through many different native languages.
In the context of this environment Paul writes:
‘In the law it is written, “Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me.â€Â’
Paul explains this communication as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers.
Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit
Up until now, the gospel had not been preached among the Gentiles and had been exclusively ministered to the Jews.
There was a Gentile called Cornelius the Centurion, a man of faith, a righteous and God-fearing man. One day God spoke to Peter and told him to go to Cornelius and tell him of the good news of the gospel. While Peter was preaching, Cornelius and all his household believed and were baptised in the Holy Spirit.
The Jews that had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
The gift of tongues that was spoken here was not interpreted by the listeners, but rather a language of praise.
Paul confirms this in his directive and writes, For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
Paul meets the men of Ephesus
Luke records an instance when Paul came across some disciples and asked them,
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, he told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is in Jesus.†On hearing this they were baptised into the name of the Lord Jesus and when Paul laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.
This passage of scripture is possibly the most quoted passage to back up the theory that being ‘saved’ and being ‘baptised in the Holy Spirit’ are two separate experiences, and that speaking in tongues is proof of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
To clarify our train of thought it must be said, that to use the scripture as a theological premise for such a distortion of the gospel, is to take the gospel of faith and present it as a gospel of works – which is no gospel at all. Any scripture taken out of the context of which it is presented and used to backup a theological distortion, results in the presentation of a false gospel.
And Paul writes, ‘If anyone is preaching to you a gospel other that what you accepted let him be eternally condemned.’
Now let us look closely at the whole context of Luke’s record concerning these men of Ephesus. To do this, we will backpedal a little to cover Paul’s tracks leading up to this encounter.
Paul had been with the believers for some time in Corinth and now decided it was time to move on. So he left the brothers and accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila sailed for Syria. Upon arriving at Ephesus, Paul left Priscilla and Aquila and went on to debate the Scriptures with the Jews, preach the Gospel, and strengthen the disciples throughout the region of Galatia and Phrygia. While Paul was away, Priscilla and Aquila heard a man named Apollos preaching in the synagogue. He was a native of Alexandria and had come to Ephesus.
Luke writes that Apollos was a learned man with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.’
Priscilla and Aquila invited him to their home and explained to him as to the establishment of the new covenant. As Apollos was a humble man, and a man of faith he accepted the teachings of Priscilla and Aquila, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and went on to become one of the great apostles of the Christian faith.
Now we must understand that until the Holy Spirit had come upon Cornelius, the Gospel was exclusively preached as a promise to those under the law, and the baptism of John was only exercised under the umbrella of Judaism.
The twelve men that Paul met in Ephesus were all Jews, disciples of Apollos and knew only of the teachings ministered by Apollos prior to the up-date by Priscilla and Aquila. Yes! These men were also men of faith having been baptised by the baptism of John in preparation for the coming of the Messiah. They were eagerly awaiting the establishment of the new covenant, and along with all of us who believe, were marked in Him with the Seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.
Luke also records that as the Holy Spirit came upon them they spoke in tongues and prophesied. However, Paul does not say whether they all spoke in tongues and all prophesied or whether half of them spoke in tongues and the other half prophesied or whatever. Who knows? Nevertheless, we do know that the Holy Spirit came upon all of them.
We praise the Lord for the book of Acts and the dedication of Luke in recording these events.
However it would also do us good to remember that these events in themselves do not constitute a theological law that dictates what God must do to satisfy man’s interpretation of spiritual growth.
It would appear that the early church (especially the church of Corinth) had quite a struggle with the discipline required for the harmonious ministry of the gifts, especially the gift of tongues.
Paul writes a word of instruction, to the church of Corinth - of which we have a copy - and we should use it for correction among the Gentile church of today.
The real issue that Paul is addressing here is division among Gods people, and if the gifts of the spirit are not exercised in a manner of love and consideration for those around you, then you are nothing more than a resounding gong, or a clanging cymbal.
As the gifts are subject to the vessel, any inconsiderate practice of the gifts would be an abuse of God's grace and a stinking display of self-righteousness.
Right from the beginning of Paul's address on the gifts, he reminds us to follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no one understands him: He utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church maybe edified.
If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues and some who do not understand, or some unbelievers come in, will they not say you are out of your mind?
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.â€Â
Just in closing on this rather complex and controversial issue, it must be firmly established that the highest order of God’s calling is rooted in the gift of love and as Paul states, “and now I will show you the most excellent wayâ€Â
“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall knowfully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.â€Â
Taken from a document which I collaborated with a friend to produce entitled "If you care (read this) The Gospel"
Mark records that just before Jesus ascended into heaven he appeared to his disciples and said to them,
"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
This is the only record of Jesus referring to ‘speaking in tongues,’ and there doesn't seem to be any special significance attributed to this gift.
After Jesus ascended to heaven, Luke records in the book of Acts, the inauguration of the Spirit.
“When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, ‘What does this mean?’â€Â
Peter stood up and addressed the crowd and said, “This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’â€Â
In the context of this phenomenon, the gift of tongues that was received by the apostles was the ability to speak to other nationals in their own native language. All those who spoke in tongues were Galileans, and yet the interpretation was received through many different native languages.
In the context of this environment Paul writes:
‘In the law it is written, “Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me.â€Â’
Paul explains this communication as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers.
Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit
Up until now, the gospel had not been preached among the Gentiles and had been exclusively ministered to the Jews.
There was a Gentile called Cornelius the Centurion, a man of faith, a righteous and God-fearing man. One day God spoke to Peter and told him to go to Cornelius and tell him of the good news of the gospel. While Peter was preaching, Cornelius and all his household believed and were baptised in the Holy Spirit.
The Jews that had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
The gift of tongues that was spoken here was not interpreted by the listeners, but rather a language of praise.
Paul confirms this in his directive and writes, For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
Paul meets the men of Ephesus
Luke records an instance when Paul came across some disciples and asked them,
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, he told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is in Jesus.†On hearing this they were baptised into the name of the Lord Jesus and when Paul laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.
This passage of scripture is possibly the most quoted passage to back up the theory that being ‘saved’ and being ‘baptised in the Holy Spirit’ are two separate experiences, and that speaking in tongues is proof of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
To clarify our train of thought it must be said, that to use the scripture as a theological premise for such a distortion of the gospel, is to take the gospel of faith and present it as a gospel of works – which is no gospel at all. Any scripture taken out of the context of which it is presented and used to backup a theological distortion, results in the presentation of a false gospel.
And Paul writes, ‘If anyone is preaching to you a gospel other that what you accepted let him be eternally condemned.’
Now let us look closely at the whole context of Luke’s record concerning these men of Ephesus. To do this, we will backpedal a little to cover Paul’s tracks leading up to this encounter.
Paul had been with the believers for some time in Corinth and now decided it was time to move on. So he left the brothers and accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila sailed for Syria. Upon arriving at Ephesus, Paul left Priscilla and Aquila and went on to debate the Scriptures with the Jews, preach the Gospel, and strengthen the disciples throughout the region of Galatia and Phrygia. While Paul was away, Priscilla and Aquila heard a man named Apollos preaching in the synagogue. He was a native of Alexandria and had come to Ephesus.
Luke writes that Apollos was a learned man with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.’
Priscilla and Aquila invited him to their home and explained to him as to the establishment of the new covenant. As Apollos was a humble man, and a man of faith he accepted the teachings of Priscilla and Aquila, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and went on to become one of the great apostles of the Christian faith.
Now we must understand that until the Holy Spirit had come upon Cornelius, the Gospel was exclusively preached as a promise to those under the law, and the baptism of John was only exercised under the umbrella of Judaism.
The twelve men that Paul met in Ephesus were all Jews, disciples of Apollos and knew only of the teachings ministered by Apollos prior to the up-date by Priscilla and Aquila. Yes! These men were also men of faith having been baptised by the baptism of John in preparation for the coming of the Messiah. They were eagerly awaiting the establishment of the new covenant, and along with all of us who believe, were marked in Him with the Seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.
Luke also records that as the Holy Spirit came upon them they spoke in tongues and prophesied. However, Paul does not say whether they all spoke in tongues and all prophesied or whether half of them spoke in tongues and the other half prophesied or whatever. Who knows? Nevertheless, we do know that the Holy Spirit came upon all of them.
We praise the Lord for the book of Acts and the dedication of Luke in recording these events.
However it would also do us good to remember that these events in themselves do not constitute a theological law that dictates what God must do to satisfy man’s interpretation of spiritual growth.
It would appear that the early church (especially the church of Corinth) had quite a struggle with the discipline required for the harmonious ministry of the gifts, especially the gift of tongues.
Paul writes a word of instruction, to the church of Corinth - of which we have a copy - and we should use it for correction among the Gentile church of today.
The real issue that Paul is addressing here is division among Gods people, and if the gifts of the spirit are not exercised in a manner of love and consideration for those around you, then you are nothing more than a resounding gong, or a clanging cymbal.
As the gifts are subject to the vessel, any inconsiderate practice of the gifts would be an abuse of God's grace and a stinking display of self-righteousness.
Right from the beginning of Paul's address on the gifts, he reminds us to follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no one understands him: He utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church maybe edified.
If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues and some who do not understand, or some unbelievers come in, will they not say you are out of your mind?
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.â€Â
Just in closing on this rather complex and controversial issue, it must be firmly established that the highest order of God’s calling is rooted in the gift of love and as Paul states, “and now I will show you the most excellent wayâ€Â
“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall knowfully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.â€Â
Taken from a document which I collaborated with a friend to produce entitled "If you care (read this) The Gospel"
A
Admiral
Guest
I am gonna pick on mutzrein because ...well ..his post is after mine and there is no answer to my question....:-D
Given all the theological evidence of tongues, what is the difference between channeling and the 'gift of tongues"?
The reason that I ask is because I see no difference between the two experiences, except samantics...
Therefore, to avoid being used of the devil, I have to learn the purpose of tongues...
Mutzrein has given a fairly excellent review and included was this little diddly-
IOWs, tongues is for evangelism....The purpose was to spread the gospel and tell of Jesus and His redemptive acts. A very practical and useful tool in the spreading the gospel to various gentils...
Therefore, I conclude that tongues is another name for speaking a foriegn language. And all the biblical texts pertaining to it fit very comfortably in that interpretation...
......So, Mutzrein, I didn't pick on ya too hard, did I? :-D
Given all the theological evidence of tongues, what is the difference between channeling and the 'gift of tongues"?
The reason that I ask is because I see no difference between the two experiences, except samantics...
Therefore, to avoid being used of the devil, I have to learn the purpose of tongues...
Mutzrein has given a fairly excellent review and included was this little diddly-
IOWs, tongues is for evangelism....The purpose was to spread the gospel and tell of Jesus and His redemptive acts. A very practical and useful tool in the spreading the gospel to various gentils...
Therefore, I conclude that tongues is another name for speaking a foriegn language. And all the biblical texts pertaining to it fit very comfortably in that interpretation...
......So, Mutzrein, I didn't pick on ya too hard, did I? :-D
Admiral said:
No – not at all – if ya think that is pickin on me, then try grabbing a decent chunk. I respond better when the flesh is buffeted.
Anyway - can I take one piece of your post at a time rather than try to wade through the lot. This is more for my benefit than anything since my time is not always my own.
So – the difference between channeling and the ‘gift of tongues’? What would you like me to say? One is of Satan. The other is of God.
But that is not to say that what is commonly seen by many in our (Penetecostal) churches is of God. Frankly I believe that much of what is touted to be of God (ie a spiritual gift) is at best ‘of the flesh’.
But let us not think that on this basis, all tongues are negated. God has given gifts to men and women and Satan will seek to discredit the work of God in whatever way he can. What better way to do it, than right at the heart of what many see as the ‘church’ or ‘body of Christ’. Whether it is the deception that allows a person to think they have a certain spiritual gift when they haven’t, or whether it is the deception that allows a person to think that another has not got the gift, when in fact they do, is still deception. And Satan has achieved another objective.
A
Admiral
Guest
:-D
Hmmmm...Grab a decent chunk, eh? With the reviews of the Oscars behind me, this may have connotations that I would prefer not to indulge in... :-D
And that is why WE must remain diligent about our relationship with God.
Thank you for the conversation...perhaps again sometime
BradtheImpaler said
Brad, I hate to break it to you like this, but this just shows a great lack of understanding or perhaps the ability to read, on your part. Please read this closely, and try to understand:
Please notice these three mental 2 x4's that smash your beliefs: 1) Notice that God says when one speaks in a tongue, he or she is speaking to God. 2) Next, Paul says that "no man understands him." Why is this? Because this is a heavenly language created in the believer's spirit by the Holy Spirit. Once again, "no man understands!" None! Zip! Nada! Only God understands, for it is created by the third person of the Godhead. 3) Paul ends this by saying that he speaks mysteries. What does a mystery mean? It means that no man understands!
How then, can you say "if someone knew the tongue?" No one will ever know the tongue, unless God adds the next miracle (as seen in Acts 2) and allows someone to hear this in their own language. Why won't anyone know the tongue? Because no man understands!
I don't assume tongues are real in my life: I know they are real. I have scripture behind my belief. There has never - not for one moment - been any doubt that I received the baptism with the HS. My life has never been the same. My prayer life has never been the same. And as a bonus, a "birthday present" if you will, I received a new prayer langauge, so when I run out of things to pray for in English, I can pray in tongues. Or when I just don't know how to pray, I can pray in the spirit. It is a great gift. Please don't belittle it.
Coop
Brad, I hate to break it to you like this, but this just shows a great lack of understanding or perhaps the ability to read, on your part. Please read this closely, and try to understand:
Please notice these three mental 2 x4's that smash your beliefs: 1) Notice that God says when one speaks in a tongue, he or she is speaking to God. 2) Next, Paul says that "no man understands him." Why is this? Because this is a heavenly language created in the believer's spirit by the Holy Spirit. Once again, "no man understands!" None! Zip! Nada! Only God understands, for it is created by the third person of the Godhead. 3) Paul ends this by saying that he speaks mysteries. What does a mystery mean? It means that no man understands!
How then, can you say "if someone knew the tongue?" No one will ever know the tongue, unless God adds the next miracle (as seen in Acts 2) and allows someone to hear this in their own language. Why won't anyone know the tongue? Because no man understands!
I don't assume tongues are real in my life: I know they are real. I have scripture behind my belief. There has never - not for one moment - been any doubt that I received the baptism with the HS. My life has never been the same. My prayer life has never been the same. And as a bonus, a "birthday present" if you will, I received a new prayer langauge, so when I run out of things to pray for in English, I can pray in tongues. Or when I just don't know how to pray, I can pray in the spirit. It is a great gift. Please don't belittle it.
Coop
BradtheImpaler said:
Then some or all of the hearers have to understand what is being said, for how else would they know the speakers were "magnifying God"? If this example is the evidence, then how many qualify today?[/quote:e8690]
As I said before, when someone has received the baptism with the HS, and begins to speak in tongues, it is a temporary thing! Eventually they will quit speaking in tongues, and begin to speak in their learned language. This is where they heard them magnify God.
Coop
AVBunyan said:
Sorry, but this is exactly what I will have to do. In the timing of God, it was not yet time for the "latter rain." That started about 1900, and has grown to encompass a great percent of the church today. It is that, spoken by the prophet Joel. Much of what Joel wrote was about the time of the end of the age - a time we are fast approaching!
Coop