Bible Study Just What ARE Pentecostal "Tongues"?

[lecoop]

There is something that the Pentecostal 'tongue-speakers' have thus far not explained. What ARE Pentecostal 'tongues' and what PURPOSE do they serve? No 'warm and fuzzies' and/or 'it makes ME feel good', PLEASE! How does your 'speaking in tongues' benefit others?

Are Pentecostal 'tongues' supposed to be 'the language of angels'? If so, where in the scriptures does it even refer to angels speaking in their own 'native' language? Even if the Bible DOES refer to a literal 'language of angels' (it DOESN'T!), why would this language be any more 'holy' than one's own language? Since when did 'a language' take on a special divinity of its own?

Any chance the above questions can be tackled by using scriptures alone?

Sputnicboy, If I give you the answer, will you then [finally] obey the scripture? Or will you just continue to argue?

I have written the purpose of tongues over and over, so will just give an abriviated version.

1) Tongues are first and formost, a prayer language. God gave us tongues so that we can always pray a perfect prayer - a prayer in His will. Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than them all; yet he also said that he would rather not use tongues in a meeting. Paul is telling us then, that he uses tongues a lot, in prayer.

2) Tongues are used to give an up to the date message to a local body throught the gift of interpretation.

3) Sometimes God used tongues in a way that others hear in their own language. Tongues are the language of the HS, since it is He that creates them.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I know that many Christians today do not believe that what happened on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) is for them. Nor what happened in Acts 8, 10, or 19. This is sad, for all of these texts describe people (members of the church of Jesus Christ) receiving the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit - the anointing that God purposed before the foundations of this earth were laid, that we should walk in. It is the same anointing that Elijah had, and Jesus had, for it is the same Holy Spirit. We are still in the church age, although at the very end of it. There has never been a time in the church age that people need the anointing of the Holy Spirit more than right now.

Therefore, I challenge the readers to ignore all the doubt and unbelief that comes from the "pharisees" and just believe the word of God. It says, "they were all filled with the HS, and began to speak in tongues." Paul said, "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" Ask yourself, "have you?" You see, Paul's question totally eliminates the possibility that this "baptism with the HS" is anything other than a second work of the Holy Spirit - as the anointing that breaks the yolk. Luke confirms this twice by showing that born again people received this mighty baptism; in Acts 8 and Acts 19. Read these texts again, without preconceived glasses on, and you will see born again people receiving the infilling of the HS. And they spoke in tongues. Why fight it? It is the word of God! Just receive it as Jesus commanded (Acts 1).

But you and your church don't have what they had in Acts, and you are suffering from severe delusion if you believe you do. What happened in Acts 2 was a verifiable miracle (according to the text) - what happens in your church is easily attributable to hysteria or deliberate fraud. You are operating on a HUGE assumption - that what happens in your circles has to be the same thing as happened in the NT.

Lets say it again for the "hearing" impaired...

There is nothing miraculous about someone seeking to speak in gibberish and then accomplishing that. It is not even an accomplishment, let alone a miracle.

Now let me ask you again if you believe there are both genuine and false manifestations of the gift of tongues today?

You are operating on a HUGE assumption - that what happens in your circles has to be the same thing as happened in the NT.

The bible calls it faith. Go ahead and be a pharisee. It is your choice! Allocate the work of the HS to something else. One thing is for sure, unless you change, you will never receive the baptism with the HS, and you will never speak in tongues.

Coop

 

[Dave...]

Coop

I made a few changes to my last post. I added three things and changed one from Acts 2:28 to Acts 2:38 in the last, four in total. All in bold print [for a few days].

You have missed the mark here, and are combining two things: salvation as the first work of the HS, and the baptism with the HS as a second work of the spirit. Dave, there is proof of what I say, if you can read and if you believe what you read. I agree with you that regeneration is performed by the Holy Spirit. In the process, our spirits are recreated into a new being that did not exist before. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ. I am sure we agree up to this point. However, the bible never calls this process the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

If you research every instance of this baptism with the HS, you see that it is always "on" or "upon," and never "in." (It is sometimes referred to as being filled with the HS also.) Let's look at some verses.

We are given the HS without measure John 3:34, and when we are born again we are complete in Him, lacking nothing Colossians 2:9-12, 2 Peter 1:3-4.

"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Romans 6:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13; cf. Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 4:4-6)

Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9.

While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur)

A side note: A proper understanding of being "filled" is not to think of us as a glass being filled with water, being "filled actually means to be more under the control of the Holy Spirit. Once again, We are given the HS without measure John 3:34, and when we are born again we are complete in Him, lacking nothing Colossians 2:9-12, 2 Peter 1:3-4.

Luke 24:49 (Young's Literal Translation)
49`And, lo, I do send the promise of my Father upon you, but ye -- abide ye in the city of Jerusalem till ye be clothed with power from on high.'


Does this sound like the born again experience? Do we "wear" the HS upon us in regeneration as we wear clothes? Definitely not! In Salvation, the HS is within.

Notice that Jesus could have said something like, "tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you receive forgiveness of sins." However, He did not say this. They were to wait for power. Why did they not wait for salvation or forgiveness of sins? Because their sins were already forgiven. They had already received the HS within.

Notice the next few verses in Luke 24:50-52, that Jesus had not yet ascended in verse 49, compare to Acts 1:9. The Gift is "The Holy Spirit" which was not given until after Jesus ascends to the right hand of the Father. Without the Holy Spirit given as the agent of baptism, man cannot be born again.

Yes, it is speaking of the Born again experience because all OT saints still living had the Promise due to them, the Promise being "the" Holy Spirit". The time period of that verse Luke 24:49 is still pre pentecost, then Jesus ascends Luke 24:50-52, compare to Acts 1:9

Notice that this is the same "Promise of the Father", "the" Holy Spirit, "the" Helper, "the" Teacher etc. that was talked about in John 7:39, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7, Acts 2:1-4. Also take special notice to what was said in these same passages, that until Jesus ascends, is glorified, and at the right hand of the Father, no Holy Spirit is given.

I have to post this. Please give time to finish responding to the rest of your post.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

John 20:22
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Could they have received the indwelling HS at this time of their lives? What is required to receive the indwelling HS?

No they could not have. Pentecost wasn't for another forty days after this. So there is no doubt, first, Jesus has not yet ascended, second, as the context makes very clear, Jesus said to Mary in verse John 20:17, "I (Jesus) have not yet ascended to my Father." Compare to John 7:39, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7. they all point to Acts 1:9, when Jesus did ascend, and then to Acts 2:33, the Promise of the Father "The Holy Spirit" is given.

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


It seems that there are two things required before someone can received the indwelling HS: they must believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and they must confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus. Did the disciples qualify? They had confessed Jesus many times while He was alive, but they could not have been born again yet, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. It was not until He appeared in the upper room, and they saw Him, that they believed that He rose from the dead; but when they saw Him, they believed. Even Thomas, the one that doubted, said "My LORD and my God." So they all believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus the Christ, and they all confessed Him. When Jesus breathed on them, they received the indwelling HS, and were converted of regenerated. That is why Jesus said to tarry for power from on high, rather than tarry for forgiveness of sins.

See above. Also, this scripture that you are quoting here (Romans 10:9) is after Pentecost and after the transition period. See Romans 3:24-26 to see that God had passed over the sins of the OT saints until their sin was nailed to the cross. They could not be born again because there was no death and resurrection, and also no Holy Spirit given, the Church, which is made of people saved, who Christ is the Head, was just first being birthed at Pentecost.

Why did Jesus breath on them? In Genesis, God breathed into Adam's body and He instantly received the Spirit. It was the same here: the moment that Jesus breathed on them, they received Him.

I don't know, but I will not go against the mountains of clear evidence that clearly shows that they did not receive the Holy Spirits permanent indwelling before Pentecost. To build a case from this one verse, when your definition clearly contradict clear scripture, a lot of clear scripture, is very dangerous. This is how cults are born. :o Yet you continue to rationalise from the obscure...

John 20
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


Wouldn't it be ludicrous to think that the disciples could forgive other's sins, while their own sins would have to wait another 40 days or so, to Pentecost? This is further proof that their own sins had been forgiven, and they had become new creatures in Christ at the moment that Jesus breathed on them and said "receive... ."

"This verse does not give authority to Christians to forgive sins. Jesus was saying that the believer can boldly declare the certainty of a sinners forgiveness by the Father because of the works of the Son if that sinner has repented and believed the Gospel. The believer with certainty can also tell those who do not respond to the message of God's forgiveness through faith in Christ that their sins, as a result, are not forgiven."


Still not finished

 

[Dave...]

Acts 1:8 ...you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you."

Acts 8
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:6
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This was the transitional period from the old covenant to the new.

Even during this transitional period, the saved by faith (old covenant) Old Testament saints needed to be upgraded to the New Testament baptism (born again, baptised into the body of Christ, the Church.) Acts 19:1-7.

This Gift from Acts 11:15 (the Holy Spirits permanent indwelling, sealed until the day of redemption) was the same Gift given to the Apostles at the beginning, i.e. The birth of the Church, which is Now for all nations and people. Acts 2:28, Acts 2:39. (also notice it is speaking of "the" Holy Spirit as the Gift.

Christ was the first in preeminence. Colossians 1:18

John 7:39, John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:16, John 16:7, John 16:10 were all fulfilled at Pentecost Acts 2:33, and not John 20:21-22.

" the believers in Samaria who were converted under the ministry of Philip had to wait a short while to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, until Peter and John came up to Samaria and layed hands on the converts (Acts 8:17). In that unique transitional situation as the Church was beginning, those particular believers had to wait for the Holy Spirit, but they were not told to seek Him.The purpose for that exception was to demonstrate to the apostles, and to bring word back to the Jewish believers in general, that the same Holy Spirit baptized and filled Samaritan believers as baptized and filled Jewish believers--just a short while later Peter and a few other Jewish Christians were sent to witness to Cornelius and his household in order to be convinced that the gospel was for all men and to see that "the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also" (Acts 10:44-45). Those special transitional events did not represent the norm, as our present text makes clear, but were given to indicate to all that the body was one".

Why did Paul ask "have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

These were OT saints still waiting for their Saviour to come, even though He had already come and risen, and were not yet fully Christians. They were still OT saints in reality and in knowledge, as they had only been baptised into John's baptism of repentance. See Matthew 3:10-12, Acts 1:4-5.

"These disciples did not realize that Jesus of Nazareth was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instruction not on how to receive the Spirit, but about Jesus Christ.... Apostles were also present when the Church was born (chapter two), and when the Samaritans (chapter eight), Gentiles (chapter ten) were included. In each case, God's purpose was to emphasize the unity of the church."

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This is post Pentecost, post transition. By the time we get to Paul writing to the Corinthians, the transition was over. 1 Corinthians 12:13. We receive the Holy Spirit upon believing from then on as you wrote below in the next quote. Note: 1 Corinthians was one of the earliest Epistles.

Therefore, in Paul's mind, people are automatically sealed by the HS when they believe; in other words, Paul believed that people got the indwelling HS at regeneration.

I think that the rest of your questions should answer themselves if you have followed what I've been posting. The upon or on, heard it all before, there's nothing there but a wish.

If you like, we can go over these verses word by word so you can see that "It's [NOT] a hap-hazard approach." I know well what I believe, and I know why I believe it, as I see it this way in scripture. Anyway, thanks for the great post.

Let's start at the simple stuff. Give me your thoughts.

Dave wrote:
Coop, you cannot be born again without being baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him, this is what it means to be born again.

Coop wrote:
I Agree! In this one thing we agree! Praise the Lord!

Coop, you cannot be immersed/baptised into Christ's death and then raised with Him, resulting in your receiving His imputed rightiousness, until the promise of the Father was Given to allow this to happen. There is no unto, onto, upon, on, there is only immersion into Christ or not. This is the only baptism, the one baptism. You are either immersed into the Body of Christ and one with Him, or you are not. If you have the Spirit, you are saved and complete in Him, lacking nothing, if you don't, you are dead in sin. This is not two things, but one.

 

[SputnikBoy]

There is something that the Pentecostal 'tongue-speakers' have thus far not explained. What ARE Pentecostal 'tongues' and what PURPOSE do they serve? No 'warm and fuzzies' and/or 'it makes ME feel good', PLEASE! How does your 'speaking in tongues' benefit others?

Are Pentecostal 'tongues' supposed to be 'the language of angels'? If so, where in the scriptures does it even refer to angels speaking in their own 'native' language? Even if the Bible DOES refer to a literal 'language of angels' (it DOESN'T!), why would this language be any more 'holy' than one's own language? Since when did 'a language' take on a special divinity of its own?

Any chance the above questions can be tackled by using scriptures alone?

Sputnicboy, If I give you the answer, will you then [finally] obey the scripture?

Now, that's the trick, isn't it ...obeying the scripture. Obedience to the scripture in regard to 'tongues' is the last thing that the Pentecostals are doing. They merely attempt to make the scriptures fit the practice. It really IS a mockery, coop.

Or will you just continue to argue?

I wasn't arguing ...I was just asking questions.

I have written the purpose of tongues over and over, so will just give an abriviated version.

1) Tongues are first and formost, a prayer language. God gave us tongues so that we can always pray a perfect prayer - a prayer in His will.

This is Pentecostal rhetoric. The Bible says no such thing.

Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than them all;

So what? Is this supposed to give the Pentecostals a case for 'tongues'? Paul said that he was multi-lingual and at no time does he say that he had 'the gift of tongues'. And no one yet has pointed me to a scripture that gives any such reference. The speaking of tongues in a general sense has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. It merely means 'speaking in a different language'.

Someone who speaks Spanish speaks in 'the tongue' of Spanish. Someone who speaks Spanish, German and English is multi-lingual. This is what Paul means when he says that he spoke in tongues more than them all. He probably could speak several languages even BEFORE he converted to Christianity. Evidently those of his audience that he knew could not. It's as simple as that. Besides that . . .what does Paul having spoken in tongues more than them all have to do with the Pentecostal Church?

yet he also said that he would rather not use tongues in a meeting. Paul is telling us then, that he uses tongues a lot, in prayer.

The Bible says no such thing. This is more Pentecostal rhetoric without any scriptural backing whatever.

2) Tongues are used to give an up to the date message to a local body throught the gift of interpretation.

Could be. But is this what the Pentecostals are doing? I don't think so.

3) Sometimes God used tongues in a way that others hear in their own language. Tongues are the language of the HS, since it is He that creates them.

No, no. Tongues are languages of the world as manifested through the Holy Spirit. And there is no 'sometimes' about it. Tongues are ALWAYS for the benefit of others.

 

[lecoop]

Coop,

Why are you ignoring my comments? My comments are based on the reality of what is going on in tongue-speaking churches.

We know by our fruit whether we are true followers or not. Tongue speaking people are not showing much fruit. It is not so hard to tell if you open your eyes and be honest.

If we are supported by God our lives will be powerful for His purpose. A disgraceful reputation is bad fruit.

We can argue all day long about the Scriptures and never get anywhere; even Satan quoted Scripture to justify himself.

We have responsibility to be salt and light in the world by living godly lives.

His servant, hitomi

Gingercat,

Have you never read about Smith Wigglesworth, John G Lake, Oral Roberts, Kathryn Kuhlman, T L Osborn, Reinhard Bonnke, etc? All these people were [are] Pentecostal - that is, they speak in tongues. Through Wigglesworth, God raised 19 people from the dead. People say that TL Osborn preached to more people face to face that anyone in the entire church history, that is until Reinhard Bonnke! Reinhard has had 1 million signed confession cards in one service! He has probably brought more people into the kingdom of God than any other human in the life of the church. Today Pentecost is the most alive part of the church, and sees far more people born again than any other denomination or group. Therefore, I think you need to do some more research! Of course people with the anointing will do more and greater works than those without it. Jesus did no mighty works until he was anointed. People are being raised from the dead today, but you have to research to hear about it. And it is through Pentecostal people that these works are being done.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Coop,

Why are you ignoring my comments? My comments are based on the reality of what is going on in tongue-speaking churches.

We know by our fruit whether we are true followers or not. Tongue speaking people are not showing much fruit. It is not so hard to tell if you open your eyes and be honest.

If we are supported by God our lives will be powerful for His purpose. A disgraceful reputation is bad fruit.

We can argue all day long about the Scriptures and never get anywhere; even Satan quoted Scripture to justify himself.

We have responsibility to be salt and light in the world by living godly lives.

His servant, hitomi

Gingercat,

Have you never read about Smith Wigglesworth, John G Lake, Oral Roberts, Kathryn Kuhlman, T L Osborn, Reinhard Bonnke, etc? All these people were [are] Pentecostal - that is, they speak in tongues. Through Wigglesworth, God raised 19 people from the dead. People say that TL Osborn preached to more people face to face that anyone in the entire church history, that is until Reinhard Bonnke! Reinhard has had 1 million signed confession cards in one service! He has probably brought more people into the kingdom of God than any other human in the life of the church. Today Pentecost is the most alive part of the church, and sees far more people born again than any other denomination or group. Therefore, I think you need to do some more research! Of course people with the anointing will do more and greater works than those without it. Jesus did no mighty works until he was anointed. People are being raised from the dead today, but you have to research to hear about it. And it is through Pentecostal people that these works are being done.

Coop

I have to ask every one about this.

How about it every one, Are his claims legitimate?

http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/199801/ ... sworth.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Wigglesworth
http://www.christianheroes.com/ev/ev016.asp
http://www.christianheroes.com/ev/ev032.asp

 

[Dave...]

Wigglesworth is a false teacher in the extreme.

 

[lecoop]

Wigglesworth is a false teacher in the extreme.

That powerful criticism. Is it justified? Please specify...

Coop

 

[D46]

I'm not against the gift of the Holy Ghost as it's biblical(...for the promise is unto you and to all that are afar off..."Acts 2:39, and that point should be understood by now. However, when you compare the likes of Kathryn Kuhlman, Oral Roberts and Reinhard Bonnke as receipients, it's people like these that hurt the name of Pentacost. Kathryn Kuhlman was an undercover agent of Rome, tied to the Legend of Mary and was assigned back in the '50'-'60's to the Charismatic movement by the Vatican. I remember watching her supposedly healing people on stage. She had priests and nuns on her platform to persuade Protestans that Roman Catholics are saved and should stay in their own institutions and she told the Protestants to do the same...sort of like Billy Graham. In short, she was one of the first "Love Gospel" evangelists. She was a false witness as was Oral Roberts who once said if he didn't get $8 million dollars that particular evening he requested it, that God was going to kill him!! And lastly, I certainly wouldn't entertain much of what Reinhard Bonnke said...he or anyone else that's affiliated with TBN.

You need to get some better examples than this. If not, may as well throw in Benny Hinn who also is a false prophet and deceiver extraordinaire.

 

[D46]

Speaking of Benny Hinn, he claims to have had two visions of Jesus before his conversion. The first was at age 11 when he was asleep. The second occurred when he was 19 during a Charismatic prayer meeting when, says Hinn, "suddenly I saw Jesus with my own eyes." This vision resulted in an immediate conversion. Later, Benny had a powerful experience at a Kathryn Kuhlman service ... after this event Hinn claims to have had numerous, ecstatic and supernatural experiences. Members of his family and others supposedly began crying and even falling down when Benny would enter the room or walk by them. This falling down is known as being "slain in the Spirit"â€â€an experience Hinn regularly effects during his services ... Hinn's practice of slaying people in the Spirit by blowing on them or touching their heads bears all the marks of manipulative staged performances.

So, whatever Kathryn Kuhlman had, it jumped off her onto Hinn. I don't think it was of God!

 

[lecoop]

To believe or not to believe................................

And so it goes, as with all scripture: some will believe and some will doubt - and some will doubt so much that they will find themselves fighting against the very Holy Spirit that regenerated them.

Oral Roberts built a university. Literally thousands of kids have graduated from there. What have you built? He said that God told him to build it. Is he perfect? He would be the first to tell you he isn't. Before the university, he laid hands on many thousands for healing. How many have you laid hands on? Before that, he was dying of tuberculosis, and God miraculously healed him. I was very near an ORU girl's flag football game, as my daughter was playing. Her team got into a huddle, and they all prayed! Tears came to my eyes, for I was sure that this scene was not played out in very many universities across the land! It is a blessed university.

Benny Hinn has crowds of tens of thousands, and every service he has an alter call, where thousands come and give their life to Jesus.. That is thousands, not one or two, or hundreds, but thousands! Now, how many have you led to the Lord? You may choose to denigrate Benny, but I will not, for I know that he is anointed with the Holy Ghost.

I watched as a policeman came forward in a Kathryn Kuhlman meeting. He took off a huge brace that had been protecting his back. She reached out and gently touched him on each cheek with the tip of her fingers. He fell down. Then for the next half hour or so, he tried to get up. He would finally get up and fall down again. She went on ministering to others, and we all watched him. Finally, he was able to stand up, perhaps an hour after she touched him. It was not faked - it was the Holy Spirit. I did not know the man, so I cannot say for sure if he was healed. All I know is I watched him trying to get up, with the HS all over him! She messed up, and married someone against the Lord's will - and lost her anointing. Finally, after a few years, she gave him up and came back to the Lord, and got the anointing back. I am sure it was the toughest thing she ever did. You can knock her if you like - I will not. I know she had the anointing of the Holy Spirit upon her.

Smith Wigglesworth was before my time, but I have read about many of his miracles. He raised 19 people from the dead. At least one of them had already been embalmed. How many have you raised from the dead?

John G Lake was accused in Spokane Washington of practicing medicine without a license. He was brought before a court of law. The judge heard testimony of so many notable miracles that he threw the case out of court. It was said that Spokane was the healthiest city in the Land back then, for all the miracles of healing that happened. Now, how many miracles of healings have you seen, when your hands have been laid on? You may choose to denigrate Mr. Lake, but I will not. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit.

I failed to mention Lester Sumerall, one of the fathers of the faith movement today. He was subpoenaed to court one time to testify, because someone claimed that "the devil made me do it!" Why was he called? He had traveled to the Philippines as a missionary, and had seen a demon possessed girl. When he got to the hotel, God asked him to go and cast the devil out of her. It took much persuasion, but finally he did, and the local radio station was there to witness it! He cast out the devil, and this girl was set free. The judge had read about it! Lester traveled through China, and into Outer Mongolia, as a missionary. He came back to the States when he was 65, and asked the Assembly of God church for a church to pastor. They told him he was too old! So he started his own church in Southbend, Indiana. Oh, in the next twenty years, he started several huge shortwave broadcasting stations, broadcasting the gospel into third world countries. When he was young, he visited Smith Wigglesworth many times, and yes, the same anointing that was on Smith; the anointing that raised the dead, came upon Lester. Why? Because that is the way it works. Now, how many radio stations have you started?

So God goes on, raising up apostles and prophets, anointing them with the Holy Spirit, and sending them out, as He has done for centuries. And the general church world, doesn't even recognize the Holy Spirit and His work. I believe the HS could walk down the center isle of many churches today, wearing a red hat, and most would not recognize Him. Why? Because they do not recognize His work, just as in the days that Jesus walked the earth. Jesus said, if you can't believe me, at least believe for the work's sake. But the people were steeped in too much unbelief, even as it is today. The dead could be raised right in front of many church people today, and they would not believe it was the HS.

While the vast majority of the church sits in their respective pews, God is raising up an army for His last revival. Who will it be? For the most part, it will be those that speak in tongues. Why is that? Because God will only send out those that have His anointing. Watch closely, for this final revival may come and go, and you will be on the sideline, wondering if it was God! Millions will come into the kingdom of God in the next few months, and then suddenly - we are going home!

What choice do you have? Stop wondering, and just believe God's word. Receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is His anointing, and you can take part in the most incredible revival that this world has ever seen.

Coop

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: To believe or not to believe............................

While the vast majority of the church sits in their respective pews, God is raising up an army for His last revival. Who will it be? For the most part, it will be those that speak in tongues.

You're coming pretty close to saying that 'tongue-speaking' is a salvation issue, coop. Are you saying this? If it isn't, then who should care whether one 'speaks in tongues' or not? If it ISN'T a salvation issue then it isn't even an issue ...right?

 

[lecoop]

Re: To believe or not to believe............................

While the vast majority of the church sits in their respective pews, God is raising up an army for His last revival. Who will it be? For the most part, it will be those that speak in tongues.

You're coming pretty close to saying that 'tongue-speaking' is a salvation issue, coop. Are you saying this? If it isn't, then who should care whether one 'speaks in tongues' or not? If it ISN'T a salvation issue then it isn't even an issue ...right?

No, it is not a salvation issue - it is an anointing issue. Jesus did not start his ministry without it. Why should we? The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the anointing. Jesus said, "I am anointed..... ." When did he become anointed? When the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

So it is not a salvation issue. Why did I say it would be those that speak in tongues? Because this comes with the anointing. It is an issue, because Jesus commanded that they (the 120) stay until they received it. It was not a suggestion. Today people aren't even looking for it.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

coop,

I am sorry that we could not convince you or you don't have open heart to the truth.

All I can say is that you take a close look at someone who speak tongue and pay attention to their private lives to see if they are leading godly lives.

I haven't yet seen any one who speak tongue leading godly lives. There are many of them in my neighborhood. BTW they are slso very intersted in wealth.

Gingercat, you are trying to convince me away from the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, so you are on the wrong side! : -))

Sorry, here is truth:

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Please notice that Jesus did not suggest - He commanded! Have you been obedient to this command? Or as Paul put it, "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? In Acts 2, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost. In Acts 8, the Holy Spirit came upon them:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Again, in Acts 10:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Again in Acts 11:

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

And again in acts 19:

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Did you catch that? Where specifically did the HS go? Did He go into the spirits of the people, as in salvation or regeneration? Absolutely not! Why not? Because this was not regeneration, but the anointing coming upon born again people! Did you notice these verses?

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Did you see that? First Jesus was preached to them. Second, they were baptized in water, proving that they had heard the gospel and believed it and were born again. Then, and only then, did Paul lay on his hands and they received the Holy Spirit UPON them: the anointing to minister the gospel.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed....[believed]
8 And there was great joy in that city [comes with regeneration]
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Again, we see people hearing the preaching of the gospel, receiving it, and believing it, and then receiving water baptism. What does this tell us? That they were born again. In other words, they already had the HS within! What happened next?

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

In verse 14, we can see what was in the mind of the apostles in Jerusalem: here are some new believers, that need to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit! So they sent Peter and John. What did they do as soon as they arrived? Did they preach Christ to get them born again? Absolutely not! They laid hands on them to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit. So we have born again, water baptized people receiving the HS. Can you see that it would be impossible for this to be speaking about salvation, or the Holy Spirit within? No, it is speaking about the anointing - which no one should leave home without! It would be totally silly to say that this doesn't fit the church today, because it is "transitional!" No, all scripture is given for doctrine. These verses show us plainly that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a second work of the HS, and the anointing - the same anointing that came on Jesus. It is ours. God wants us to have it. Oh, tongues is just a present that comes along with the anointing. Take it too! This is the truth of the gospel. Gingercat, I speak in tongues, and I look at my life every day. It is not my business to look at others to see if they are living Godly lives. They belong to Jesus, and that is His business. What we need to look at is; are we following the scriptures?

Coop

 

[SputnikBoy]

Re: To believe or not to believe............................

While the vast majority of the church sits in their respective pews, God is raising up an army for His last revival. Who will it be? For the most part, it will be those that speak in tongues.

You're coming pretty close to saying that 'tongue-speaking' is a salvation issue, coop. Are you saying this? If it isn't, then who should care whether one 'speaks in tongues' or not? If it ISN'T a salvation issue then it isn't even an issue ...right?

No, it is not a salvation issue - it is an anointing issue. Jesus did not start his ministry without it. Why should we? The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the anointing. Jesus said, "I am anointed..... ." When did he become anointed? When the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

The above has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, coop, particularly those 'tongues' that we are discussing here.

So it is not a salvation issue.

There are an increasing number of Pentecostals today who are INDEED saying that 'speaking in tongues' is a salvation issue. Why do some say it is while others say it isn't?

Why did I say it would be those that speak in tongues? Because this comes with the anointing. It is an issue, because Jesus commanded that they (the 120) stay until they received it. It was not a suggestion. Today people aren't even looking for it.

'Fraid not, coop. Jesus commanded that they remain in Jerusalem for the arrival of 'the helper'. Why? Because Jesus had just told them prior to this particular scripture to preach the good news to all the world. In order to do so they would need the ability to preach the gospel in the tongues (languages) of other nations. This is what tongues were (are?) and the Pentecostal Church simply does not pass muster on this issue. As for 'praying in tongues' ...the Bible is silent on this. This is purely an invention of the charismatics to imply 'holiness'.

 

[mutzrein]

I attended one of these meetings once where people were getting 'slain in the spirit'. I was a much younger Christian and the offer was made by someone for prayer of some nature - I can't remember what it was and so I accepted by standing that I wanted someone to pray with me. As others were getting prayed for all around me the floor was littered with people who had been 'slain'. Come my turn and this guy put his hand on my forehead and started 'praying'. As he did he applied pressure to my head and was pushing me backwards. I was aware that someone had positioned themselves behind me - seemingly to catch me when I fell. I stepped back with one foot and braced myself. He pushed me harder so I looked this guy straight in the face and I waited for him to open his eyes - which he did of course - and when he did I said, "Don't push". That was it - he moved on.

Later, while having supper I confronted this guy (if I recall correctly he was some high flyer from the US) and I said to him, "If this was a work of the Holy Spirit, why did he have to push?"

His response? "The trouble is with you, you have a spirit of unbelief"

How many get sucked in by this nonsense? And where is the discernment as thousands, by the look of it, flock to these people to 'get a touch from the Lord'? Really they are just push-overs.

 

[D46]

coop-I think you've OD'd on TBN and have fallen into their trap as countless others have. Did you order one of Jan's rhinestone Jesus pens? I think every good TBN fan should have at leas two! As for Oral Roberts...

1960: Roberts claimed that God had told him to make His healing power known throughout the earth. This report appeared in Charisma magazine in May 1987: "In 1960, Roberts believed God spoke to his heart and said:

`Raise up your students to hear My Voice, to go where My light is dim, where My voice and My healing power is not known. To go even to uttermost bounds of the earth. Their work will exceed yours. And in this, I am well pleased."

Media Spotlight says that to date, none of Roberts' students' work has exceeded his, at least as far as his publicity has revealed.

1977: Roberts said he had received a vision from God telling him to build the City of Faith. He later claimed to have seen a 900- foot-tall Jesus who told him that the vision would soon be realized and that the hospital would be a success. The City of Faith opened in 1981.

1983: Roberts announced that Jesus had appeared to him in person and commissioned him to find a cure for cancer (Time, July 4, 1983).

Media Spotlight says there has been no cure for cancer found at the Oral Roberts University or anywhere else.

1986: Roberts said God had told him, "I want you to use the ORU medical school to put My medical presence in the earth. I want you to get this going in one year or I will call you home. It will cost $8 million and I want you to believe you can raise it." (Abundant Life, Jan./Feb. 1987)

January 1987: Roberts said God had told him he had not sent out any medical missionaries. In order for him to do that, he had to raise $8 million by March 1 or God would take him home. Roberts said the money would be used to provide full scholarships for medical missionaries who would be sent to Third World countries. He made the appeal in his TV program "Expect a Miracle" of January 4, 1987.

He said $3.5 million had been raised and all he needed was $4.5 million before March 1 that year.

April 1, 1987: Roberts announced that he had raised $9.1 million--$1.1 million more than needed. Of the money raised, $1.3 million was given by a dog track owner [which, like horse racing, is a gambling center], Jerry Collins.

November 1987: Roberts announced that the City of Faith medical clinic will close in three months.

January 1988: Roberts canceled the university's free medical tuition program despite his claim that God had told him to make the medical school a world outreach program.

March 1988: The medical scholarship fund went bankrupt. Students were required to repay scholarship funds at 18 percent annual interest if they transferred to another school rather than stay at ORU medical school and start paying the high tuition.

September 1989: Roberts decided to close the medical school and the City of Faith hospital to pay off debts.

The Editor of Watch! makes these important comments: "This list of claims and promises is a very serious matter indeed. Several questions beg to be asked: Is the `900-foot-Jesus' a lying, seducing, evil spirit? If it was really Jesus, why did He not fulfill His promises? Why did not God take Roberts home when he failed to raise the money before March 1? Or was it another of Roberts' false pretenses to raise money? What happened to all the money that was raised? Will it be returned to those who gave in sincerity?

"More importantly, several doctrinal issues are at stake. For example, is there any truth in the charismatic claims of continuing visions, revelations, and prophecies? We believe the saga of Oral Roberts and his City of Faith puts the whole charismatic movement in its proper perspective--that there are many false prophets within."

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:20-22

 

[D46]

TBN also reruns many of its fund raising programs in which unscriptural and fraudulent promises of financial or physical blessings are guaranteed to those who contribute. What a sham! Gross deception is involved here which must be exposed.

Furthermore, Hinn and other Charismatic leaders who capitalize on this supposed gift of knowledge admit that their "words of knowledge" and their "prophecies" are not 100 percent accurate. Here is Benny Hinn's own amazing admission given on TBN February 23, 1992: "Man, I remember when God would give me words of knowledge back when I began in this ministry, but I missed nine out of ten. Of course, nobody knew it except me." Then Hinn tried to explain this strange inconsistency by saying, "Saints, the Holy Ghost is using an imperfect vessel. Are you listening? We are not infallible. When you give a prophecy, sometimes you can be way off. You have to be open enough to say, 'I blew it."'


Knowing that some would question his false concept in light of the fact that God's faithful Old Testament prophets and New Testament apostles had no such failure record, Hinn actually accused Paul, Moses and Elijah of such shortcomings. Hinn said, "Men of God blew it all the time. Paul blew it; Moses blew it; Elijah blew it; even Elisha blew it. They all blew it. Maybe not the prophecies, but they all blew it in all kinds of things." Hinn then went on to point out personal failures in the lives of these men, but, by his own admission, the words these men of God spoke were not their own-they were the words of the Living God; their prophecies and words of knowledge were always 100 percent accurate.

Hinn continued his twisted, confusing conclusions and unscriptural defense of his own prophetic "word of knowledge" inconsistencies:

We all blow it, and if you don't, you're not human ... The man who does not know how to say, "I blew it"-you can't trust him. Did you hear that? So, you see, when the gift begins, it begins rough; but then as you keep going with it, you get better and better and cleaner and purer with it. So today, with the word of knowledge (I'm just being open with you) I rarely miss anymore because I recognize how to operate in it.

With these words Hinn clearly identifies himself as a false teacher.

In September of 1991 at the Anaheim Convention Center, some of Benny Hinn's statements were even more dangerous and alarming. Hinn said,


"All of us make mistakes. All of us are bound to err. But woe to the man and woe to the station and woe to the group that will expose the nakedness of the man of God to the world. You know, I'll tell you something. I'm not supposed to, but the Holy Ghost is upon me, and I think I need to. The day is coming when those that attack us will drop dead. You say, "What did you say?" I speak this under the anointing of the Spirit. Can I tell you something? Don't touch God's servants; it's deadly. God says, "Touch not My anointed." I'm not afraid to tell you what I think. I owe nothing to no man and don't you dare touch Morris Cerullo; don't touch Rex Humbard; don't touch Billy Graham; don't touch Larry Lea; don't touch Oral Roberts or Richard Roberts; don't touch them. Pray for them. Pray, pray, pray! I speak this under the anointing. Woe to you that touch God's servants. You are going to pay, and the day will come (the Lord said this to me) when I will punish instantly those who touch My chosen. They will fear us. Hear this! Today they mock us; tomorrow they will fear us. When you deal with the supernatural as I do, God allows your eyes to see things that most of you don't see and maybe that you should not see."

If statements such as these do not sound an alarm as to the direction in which Hinn is headed, perhaps nothing will. The way in which Hinn twisted and misapplied the Scriptures with regard to the attitude God expects His children to manifest toward God's leaders is shocking, yet this false view is widely held today. God's command to "touch not" His anointed refers to seeking vengeance or causing physical harm. Certainly it cannot be Scripturally applied to the exercise of spiritual reproof or rebuke. In fact, the latter is commanded by God Himself (2 Timothy 4:1-2). Note the reproof of King Saul by the prophet Samuel and the rebuke of Peter by Paul (1 Samuel 15; Galatians 2). Hinn's threatenings against faithful believers who "speak the truth in love"â€â€those who not only proclaim the Truth but also expose error wherever it may be foundâ€â€merely reveals how desperate he has become in his efforts to defend and justify his false claims and false teachings.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tbn.htm

TBN, unlike other Christian broadcasting stations, does not depend upon income from their broadcasters to meet station expenses. The millions of dollars they raise each year by their semiannual financial appeals makes it possible for them to give free time or reduced rates to those who will help build their Charismatic empire. Furthermore, their financial appeals are both deceitful and unscriptural, promising contributors that God will bless them financially if they give sacrificially to TBN. In their most recent financial appeals, Hinn, John Avanzini and other TBN regulars have been promising contributors that not only is healing for their bodies included in the atonement but also financial prosperity and a debt-free existence. This amounts to raising funds by fraudulent means and would certainly subject TBN to legal prosecution if it were not accomplished under a religious umbrella.

It's people like you, coop, and the TBN that have irreparably harmed the true movement of God within the church all for the sake of "filthy lucre" and ill-gotten gains.