Justification and Sanctification

[GodsGrace]

My friend, I believe we are saved for good works, and not saved by them.
How is it you do not understand where I stand based on what I shared?
Is it possible you have decided who is in one group and who is in another, irrespective of the beliefs
of the individuals, but based on other criteria which you use?

The problem with using unrelated criteria to label people,is it is not part of Gods way.
God declares the righteous are those that follow His ways. It has always been so.
Jesus's problem with the pharisees is they lied about their motivation and following and only appeared
righteous, while denying the truth of the Kingdom because their hearts where impure defiling their lives.

If anyone cannot accept who people are, what they believe and why, then the conversation and sense
stop. It is always possible to invent things, place them on others and then pull it down. I do wonder why
people fall for propoganda like this, but many idiologies do this.

God bless you, praise the Lord He has saved us from our sin through the cross, Halleluyah

 

[PeterJens]

He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, but your posts indicate that some recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

In direct contradiction of what Jesus said.


No He didn't. Please follow forum rules and quote or cite verses that support your claims.

However, consider these 10 verses:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


It means more than just that. Married couples can live with each other but not abide with each other. The issue of abiding in the Bible is about abiding in fellowship or peace. So it's not just being in the same room or house. Hardly.


The Bible doesn't speak of "living with Christ". That is your word, not the Bible's.

The Bible speaks of being IN Christ, which means to be in union with Christ. Something the Holy Spirit does for each believer, per Eph 1:13. The Bible also speaks of abiding in, remaining in, and continuing in Him. These are about fellowship.


I heartily agree. Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27.
Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28.


This is twisting Scripture. What He said was that He saves those who believe in Him.

Again, please abide by forum rules and provide any verse that supports your claim.

There is a tendency not to do that.

People do change their faith position. This is factually provable, and most of us have friends who have
done this.
So either they have had faith, salvation, and lost it, or never had it in the first place, or are still saved while
being in rebellion.
Most hold the first position, because it corresponds to what we see.
The second position, lead to serious problems of never knowing do you know Jesus at all, because tomorrow
you could wake up and it is all gone.
The third is a form of universalism, where some kind of experience enters you into the Kingdom and thats it.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is like a seed, like a jewel found in a field, like a tree that grows and grows,
like a vine, like a crop of wheat in a field etc.

All living things start small and develop. They all have a potential to arrive and develop into a great living
being, but they might not.

It appears some want to reject this whole model and go for the instant eternal mystical perfection, within a
fallen flesh body. It tends to follow the gnostic dualist view of spiritual life. Part of this is true, we are brought
to life by being born again, but I would hold it is the part of us that would sing with Jesus, that is dying and empty
without Him. We are born with this aspect of life, and for people in believers families is actually alive to God, as
Paul would say, we are regarded as Holy. We may make a mistake down playing the effect believers have on those
around them in households, which may make more sense of Pauls words. In a spiritual sense if people do not
make a personal commitment for Christ when they come of age, they fall away.

Claiming forum rules is not applicable, because the verses are simple

For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
1 Corinthians 7:14 NIV

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Matthew 19:17 NIV

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1 John 2:3-5 NIV

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NIV

Delighting in wickedness is a sign of those who do not believe, while obedience and love is the sign of those
who know God.

Claiming promises of someone without also declaring their heart and desires is not telling the whole story or the
truth. It is obvious to those who wish to look at what is said and open their hearts up to Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

People do change their faith position. This is factually provable, and most of us have friends who have
done this.
So either they have had faith, salvation, and lost it, or never had it in the first place, or are still saved while
being in rebellion.
Most hold the first position, because it corresponds to what we see.
The second position, lead to serious problems of never knowing do you know Jesus at all, because tomorrow
you could wake up and it is all gone.
The third is a form of universalism, where some kind of experience enters you into the Kingdom and thats it.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is like a seed, like a jewel found in a field, like a tree that grows and grows,
like a vine, like a crop of wheat in a field etc.

All living things start small and develop. They all have a potential to arrive and develop into a great living
being, but they might not.

It appears some want to reject this whole model and go for the instant eternal mystical perfection, within a
fallen flesh body. It tends to follow the gnostic dualist view of spiritual life. Part of this is true, we are brought
to life by being born again, but I would hold it is the part of us that would sing with Jesus, that is dying and empty
without Him. We are born with this aspect of life, and for people in believers families is actually alive to God, as
Paul would say, we are regarded as Holy. We may make a mistake down playing the effect believers have on those
around them in households, which may make more sense of Pauls words. In a spiritual sense if people do not
make a personal commitment for Christ when they come of age, they fall away.

Claiming forum rules is not applicable, because the verses are simple

For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
1 Corinthians 7:14 NIV

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Matthew 19:17 NIV

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1 John 2:3-5 NIV

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NIV

Delighting in wickedness is a sign of those who do not believe, while obedience and love is the sign of those
who know God.

Claiming promises of someone without also declaring their heart and desires is not telling the whole story or the
truth. It is obvious to those who wish to look at what is said and open their hearts up to Christ.

What Great Posts !!!

 

[PeterJens]

Abiding in Christ - is this a key issue?

Who is Christ? God, His son, His word, the essence of His heart, His desires, His love.
Who are changed by His presence? His people, as they commune with Him after being forgiven.

So someone who knows all this and has experienced it all, yet walks away and walking in sin and evil,
why should there be any reward for them, because now they are no longer innocent lost in sin, they
actually chose sin above dwelling with the Most High.

What was Esau's failure? He sold his birthright for a bowl of porridge.
So how would God regard those who sell out their faith, for wealth, sex, power, drugs, domination?
With love, forgiveness and a humble heart?

So those who are brought back from the dead, are now going to be loving, kind obedient members of
the Kingdom of heaven or lost sinners still seeking out selfish ends into eternity?

Everyday we wake up to a new day. Why is waking up in the resurrection going to be any different?
The rebellious will rise to rebellion, and the believers to faith and love.

There will be no great change of heart, just judgement for those who are lost and salvation for those who
are saved, Amen.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

People do change their faith position. This is factually provable, and most of us have friends who have
done this.
So either they have had faith, salvation, and lost it, or never had it in the first place, or are still saved while
being in rebellion.
Most hold the first position, because it corresponds to what we see.
The second position, lead to serious problems of never knowing do you know Jesus at all, because tomorrow
you could wake up and it is all gone.
The third is a form of universalism, where some kind of experience enters you into the Kingdom and thats it.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is like a seed, like a jewel found in a field, like a tree that grows and grows,
like a vine, like a crop of wheat in a field etc.

All living things start small and develop. They all have a potential to arrive and develop into a great living
being, but they might not.

It appears some want to reject this whole model and go for the instant eternal mystical perfection, within a
fallen flesh body. It tends to follow the gnostic dualist view of spiritual life. Part of this is true, we are brought
to life by being born again, but I would hold it is the part of us that would sing with Jesus, that is dying and empty
without Him. We are born with this aspect of life, and for people in believers families is actually alive to God, as
Paul would say, we are regarded as Holy. We may make a mistake down playing the effect believers have on those
around them in households, which may make more sense of Pauls words. In a spiritual sense if people do not
make a personal commitment for Christ when they come of age, they fall away.

Claiming forum rules is not applicable, because the verses are simple

For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
1 Corinthians 7:14 NIV

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Matthew 19:17 NIV

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1 John 2:3-5 NIV

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NIV

Delighting in wickedness is a sign of those who do not believe, while obedience and love is the sign of those
who know God.

Claiming promises of someone without also declaring their heart and desires is not telling the whole story or the
truth. It is obvious to those who wish to look at what is said and open their hearts up to Christ.

Amen .Amazing post

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Hello RS
You don't need any guidance from me!
You know scripture very well and post it appropriately.
Just continue in your way -- you are lacking in nothing.

Wondering I meant how do you cut and paste a particular section of a post ( here on forum) and then answer to that . I just can't do it

 

[FreeGrace]

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24


JLB

It occurred to me over night that your views are the same as that of the Roman Catholic Church. And all this time I thought I was debating an evangelical Arminian.

 

[FreeGrace]

The only way to be saved is obey the Gospel.

The only way to be justified by s obedience.
JLB

Consider these verses regarding justification:
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 2:16 - know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith inChrist and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 3:24 - So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
The entire chapter of Romans 4

Might want to re-think your position.

 

[FreeGrace]

If we are saved merely by faith please explain why James wrote Faith without works is dead .

Gladly.

James was saying that faith without works fails to demonsrate one's faith to others, per 2:18. Without works, others cannot see our faith.

And, without works, others will not benefit from our faith, per 2:15,16.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering I meant how do you cut and paste a particular section of a post ( here on forum) and then answer to that . I just can't do it

Oh!

You mean how to do the quote things:
Like this...

Easy. You just tell the post when you want to start, and when you want to end.

To start do this
[ ] inside these two write the word QUOTE in caps.

To end do this
[ ] inside these two write this /QUOTE in caps.

Try it. It could come in handy although I don't like it too much.
It wastes time. I'd rather just talk.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes sir.

Fruitless Christians will be removed from Him.

Unsubstantiated opinion. The Holy Spirit guarantees our inheritance when He places the believer IN HIM. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

 

[FreeGrace]

This church pastor of Gospel Way Church of God in Christ from Lexington city Virginia has raised very important questions about the doctrine of salvation that is being taught in many churches nowadays----- That we are saved by faith alone

This is what the Bible says about salvation and eternal life (and how to get them)
For salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Now, for eternal life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

There. 22 verses that don't mention anything about works or obedience. Only faith.

How many verses are there that mention BOTH faith and works for salvation? NONE at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

Gladly.

James was saying that faith without works fails to demonsrate one's faith to others, per 2:18. Without works, others cannot see our faith.

And, without works, others will not benefit from our faith, per 2:15,16.

Oh. Are others going to judge me as to where I end up?
What do I care what others think?

We are to not make God ashamed of us because if we proclaim to be Christian, we should act as Christians.
1 Thessalonians 5:22

Other than that... who cares?
You think the darndest things just to twist that scripture around...

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what the Bible says about salvation and eternal life (and how to get them)
For salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Now, for eternal life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

There. 22 verses that don't mention anything about works or obedience. Only faith.

How many verses are there that mention BOTH faith and works for salvation? NONE at all.

Same ole' verses.
So my reply to you meant nonthing?
So why do we speak to each other?

How about answering my reply to you re the above being in the present tense?
What would your answer to that be?
To just keep posting the same posts??

Give me a reply, please.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"This is the final judgment. John 3:18 is about generally being under judgment, but not actually having been judged yet. That occurs at the GWT judgment."

Is it possible for you to speak without using these quotes?

What quotes is this referring to?

How am I supposed to know what I'm answering to?

By reading the question.

How about using syntax?? It would be nice.

How would you like me to use it?

YOU asked where it says that the lost are already judged.
And I replied. I don't understand your answer to ME.

That is obvious. John 3:18 is a general statement about the state of all unbelievers. But Rom 20:15 is the FINAL judgment that is applied to all believers.

What does "generally being under judgement" mean anyway?
You're either saved or lost.

Right. We're all born lost. But until the final judgment of the GWT judgment, unbelievers haven't been judged.

If you're lost, you are so from birth. Jesus said we must be born from above.

That is correct.

So if one is not, he is already judged and already lost.

No. He's under judgment, but not actually judged until the GWT.

The GWTJ from, what little I know, is for NON-BELIEVERS. Believers are already judged by Christ at HIS judgement seat.

Yes, the GWT is for unbelievers. Where they WILL be judged. They haven't been yet.

There will be no sins mentioned at the GWTJ?

If you disagree, please point out where the sins are in Rev 20:11-15.

Sin is bad deeds or bad works.

Right. So, where in Rev 20:11-15 would one find "bad deeds" or "bad works"?

How could good deeds not meet the righteousness of God if Jesus clearly said that the saved must do good deeds. Will these good deeds be judged wrongly?

No, they are the basis of just how bearable it will be for unbelievers in the lake of fire. Do you think that the "temp" will be the same for everyone in it?

If so, then what in the world did Jesus mean by these words:
Matt 11;22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:24 -
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

I'm sure we all realize just how wicked the people of Sodom were. Yet, the day of judgment will be MORE BEARABLE for them that for Capernaum of Jesus' day.

 

[FreeGrace]

My posts indicate some recipients of eternal life can perish.

So, at least this is an admission of being in total disagreement with the words of Jesus who said that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Good to know your position is clear.

Jesus said nothing about only those recipients who endure to the end.

Please be aware that the word "saved" has a temporal meaning WAY MORE than an "eternal" meaning throughout the Bible.

And the abused verse in Matt about "enduring to the end" is clearly in reference to the 7 year period we call the Tribulation.

So I'd suggest always checking the context before abusing a verse and trying to force it to mean something else.

 

[FreeGrace]

By “elect” do you mean elected to be saved?

Please follow forum rules and provide verses that support your opinion. What verse says anyone is elected to salvation?

Jesus Christ is the Elect One. Was He elected to salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

I said:
"This is the final judgment. John 3:18 is about generally being under judgment, but not actually having been judged yet. That occurs at the GWT judgment."

What quotes is this referring to?


By reading the question.


How would you like me to use it?


That is obvious. John 3:18 is a general statement about the state of all unbelievers. But Rom 20:15 is the FINAL judgment that is applied to all believers.


Right. We're all born lost. But until the final judgment of the GWT judgment, unbelievers haven't been judged.


That is correct.


No. He's under judgment, but not actually judged until the GWT.


Yes, the GWT is for unbelievers. Where they WILL be judged. They haven't been yet.


If you disagree, please point out where the sins are in Rev 20:11-15.


Right. So, where in Rev 20:11-15 would one find "bad deeds" or "bad works"?


No, they are the basis of just how bearable it will be for unbelievers in the lake of fire. Do you think that the "temp" will be the same for everyone in it?

If so, then what in the world did Jesus mean by these words:
Matt 11;22 - But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:24 -
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

I'm sure we all realize just how wicked the people of Sodom were. Yet, the day of judgment will be MORE BEARABLE for them that for Capernaum of Jesus' day.

OK.
I can't answer to all these quote things.
You're posting verses we haven't even discussed.
And there's just too much here.
What do you mean lost people haven't been judsged till the GWTJ?
Aren't they in hell when they die?

Syntax.
I know how to answer questions FreeGrace.
How dumb do you think I am anyway?
Syntax. Use syntax when y ou're replying to me.
You don't use full sentences. I don't know what we were talking about.
Do you notice how you have no problem answering ME because I use full sentences that INCLUDE what we're talking about??
Use syntax.

 

[WIP]

Oh!


Easy. You just tell the post when you want to start, and when you want to end.

To start do this
[ ] inside these two write the word QUOTE in caps.

To end do this
[ ] inside these two write this /QUOTE in caps.

Try it. It could come in handy although I don't like it too much.
It wastes time. I'd rather just talk.

You can also drag your mouse over the text you want to highlight and then you'll see a pop-up giving you the option to "reply." Select that option and it'll start your response with that selection quoted.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, at least this is an admission of being in total disagreement with the words of Jesus who said that recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Good to know your position is clear.

Jesus said nothing about only those recipients who endure to the end.

Please be aware that the word "saved" has a temporal meaning WAY MORE than an "eternal" meaning throughout the Bible.

And the abused verse in Matt about "enduring to the end" is clearly in reference to the 7 year period we call the Tribulation.

So I'd suggest always checking the context before abusing a verse and trying to force it to mean something else.

Be Serious.
The 7 year period.
I mean really.
Who knows if the tribulation is even real.
Or when we get taken.
Pre, during post.
What a lot of talk about nothing.
Stick to what is being discussed.