Jethro Bodine
Member
Did I meet Chopper's polite challenge, or do you think I failed to do that?
Are you perhaps simply making another point?
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Kundalini Warning To The Church Of Jesus Christ....True or False.
- Thread starter Chopper
- Start date
Are you perhaps simply making another point?
B
Brother Mike
Guest
I bet he called collect.
And may I point out to our brothers and sisters that just because something gets out of order that does not automatically mean what is happening is fake. Paul was hardly telling the Corinthians that their chaotic meetings meant the gifts being manifested were fake. No, they were just chaotic and out of control, not false manifestations. He commended the Corinthians for their gifts.
If only the church understood this.
Right, the heart of something is far more important than just the physical acts. I have heard aweful messages preached, where I could point scriptures as to why they are not telling the truth, but what is their heart? If their heart is to help, and are not trying to decieve anyone, then they can learn better and come up.
I speak in tongues, have for a long time, been to all kinds of meetings. I like teaching, more than all the singing and laughing. I avoid those churches that have everyone in fits and rolling on the floor. I don't think anything wrong with it, just not my thing.
There are far more deceptive things out there, that are evil, and hard to spot. Laughing and having a great time is not one of them.
Chopper
Member
Well Jethro, those Scriptures don't even come close to what is happening in those video's IMO.
I don't think you met his polite challenge, that is the point.
I think you could have if you chose to search the correct passages, but what you used I questioned.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Then please show me which ones I posted are not dramatic nor Biblical. That is what he asked for.
Are you saying there are other passages that better answer his challenge? If so, what are those? I will try to remember those for future conversations.
I think we can agree that the K. video is not inspired by the God of Israel, so we don't even need to discuss the validity of that.
So, in regard to what is happening in some churches, what is not being understood is that, Biblically, the ministry of God's Spirit does result in various physical things happening in a person similar to what happens in pagan rituals. That hardly means they have to be inspired by the exact same source (recall Willie's reference to Moses and the wizards of Egypt).
What is also not being understood is that a person in whom the ministry of God's Spirit is causing physical things to occur also has, by virtue of that same Spirit of God, the capacity to be self-controlled. But they also are able to suppress the Spirit altogether on the other end of the spectrum. The only exceptions I can think of right off being if, like Daniel, you have melted in complete weakness in response to the word, or you are being shook and convulsed by demons being cast out by the Spirit of God, and if they are speaking through that person on their way out. Those are obviously physical manifestations provoked by the Spirit of God that a person can not restrain.
The point being, just because people don't exercise self-control and rational judgment doesn't mean what they aren't controlling isn't somehow the result, directly or indirectly, of the Spirit of God at work. Again, I cite the Corinthians. Paul correcting their chaos hardly meant the manifestations that were in chaos weren't genuinely the result of the ministry of God's Spirit. It simply means they were being exercised in a chaotic manner.
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Sinthesis
Member
You misunderstand. I don't believe this has anything to do with the spiritual realm. Rather this, as far as I can tell, belongs in the psychological, sociological, and physiological realm.
Sinthesis
Member
It's not that I'm not thinking, it is that I'm not comfortable judging wholesale, but would rather consider individual circumstances before jumping to a conclusion. I consider it foolishness at first glance, but who is to say God can't reap where He has not sown?
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Brother Mike
Guest
Chopper, there is video's from Rodney Howard Brown whom I know, and Kenneth Copeland, then it pans to something else that does not seem Christian. You can take clips of anything and half quote people to make up any case. I can't judge the other clips as I don't know those folks or what they practice.
So to say none of it is not close to scripture is a bit far fetched. We certainly do not want folks taking a bit of what we said and making it into something we never ment. We should steer clear of that type of seed.
Mat 28:8 kjva And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
What does Fear with Great Joy look like in someone? Would it look like some of the people laughing in the video?
Luk 6:23 kjva Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
What does leaping for Joy look like in someone who just got the revelation of how great their reward is in Heaven? Leaping up and down looks a lot like those folks in the video.
What did David look like half naked running around shouting for joy when the Ark came back? At least the folks in the video did not have parts hanging out.
Col 2:5 kjva For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
What does Joying in the spirit look like. The Greek Word means rejoicing, jumping up and down. Would it look like any of the folks in the video?
Eph 5:18-20 kjva 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Being filled with the Spirit is compared with being drunk with wine. Speaking to yourself? Making melody's in their heart, and walking around giving thanks. Seems like that would look and sound pretty crazy if someone was just doing that at the store.
Just because we don't understand the Power of the Holy Spirit, what it feels like on flesh. and the fact Joy is mentioned in 69 scritpures in the NT, does not make the devil running around giving folks joy and making them act strange.
I have prayed in tongues for a long time, and not a fan of that fall on the ground pentecoastal stuff. I would rather hear teaching, but It just means I go to places where things are more calm is all.
Not everything is God, can be flesh, but I sat and just laughed when used to heal a brother in the Lord. I understand it at least, not sure I am convinced it can be forced or happen when we want.
Malachi
Member
Sinthesis,
If you take a moment to reflect upon what Scripture reveals in its entirety, you will be led to conclude that absolutely everything pertaining to the human race is ultimately controlled by the spiritual realm. God is a Spirit (Jn 4:24) and Satan is an angelic malevolent spirit being (Eph 2:2). There has been a spiritual battle ongoing since Adam was created, and today it is even more intense.
Those in the world who have no spiritual component (unsaved) will use terms such as psychological, sociological, and physiological. But Christians who have been born again and have the indwelling Holy Spirit can discern that everything is ultimately a result of the spiritual realm, because that is what God has revealed.
Kundalini is very definitely in the spirit realm, and any "religious" or "spiritual" phenomena which are not clearly supported by Scripture are influenced by demonic spirits (e.g.Hindu gods). Even certain manifestations among charismatics must be questioned in the light of God's Word.
For example, God commands women to be silent in the churches (1 Cor 14:34,35 where it is "not permitted unto them to speak"), yet women are not silent when manifesting the modern tongues phenomena. Since that is a direct contradiction of the Word of God, who is controlling these women? God is not the Author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33). Draw your own conclusions.
Sinthesis
Member
Are you implying that Christian women speaking in tongues within chrurch are being controled by satan?
Okay, let's look at whether or not it was of the Holy Spirit becasue that is what Chopper asked for.....,
ALL you stated that were before the Crucifixion of Jesus because the Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost, can not be used, I think you will agree it was not the Holy Spirit for the Scriptural evidence given.
Let's look at the flames of fire,
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Act 2:2
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Act 2:3
We must remember this was not written from a eye witness, but as it was recounted to Luke some 40 odd years after the fact and please correct me if wrong, but if I remember High School English both sentences are similes, using the words as and like.
The part of the sentence that is descriptive is the the word sound and it is compared to a might wind.
In the second sentence the descriptive word is languages (tongues) and the KJ use of the word cloven means the channel through which they (languages, tongues came upon the individuals.
Notice it records for us they were in a house where they were sitting, it was not a public spectacle, and also notice there were two types of hearers, not observers, those that said the were drunken babblers and those that said they heard the wonderful works of God in their native language.
So I don't see any dramatic public manifestation of the Holy Spirit as you are referring to, maybe you can post some more that will stand up to Scriptural scrutiny?
B
Brother Mike
Guest
I am convinced that all mental illness is connected to the realm of the spirit. Mental illness is caused by thinking on the wrong thoughts. There are many voices in this World, most not from God.
As for women not allowed to speak in church? Well, I doubt that gifts have changed in the years, and things are most likely the same.
Women did speak, worked with Paul and did give prophecy. The elder wome are to teach the younger.
The scripture says let YOUR women keep silent. In other words, she ought not to be speaking ahead of the man, or even at all. There was complete chaos in the Corinithians church concerning tongues and the other gifts, and why Paul spent so much time on the subject of keeping things under control.
If the women is the speaker, then she may speak of course, but not to be over the man concerning spiritual things.
What is this Modern tongues thing? I have been praying in tongues for years, and it really seems the norm. Pentecoastal things have their issues though, and why I go to a church that just teaches, and not get into that tongues things often.
Women for some odd reason seem more receptive to the things of the spirit, and upsuring mans authority. It happened in Pauls day and it still happens today.
Blessings.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Karl, you're scaring me, lol.
This is what Chopper wanted from me in post #148:
Everything I posted is 1) Biblical, and 2) dramatic, and 3) the Spirit at work in a person.
I see. Since what happened was like a rushing wind and like tongues of fire that what happened was not dramatic. I'm pretty sure that when something happens like a rushing mighty wind, and something like fire appears over people's head that qualifies as dramatic.
Besides the fact that Acts 2 did happen in a public place, why are you adding 'public' to the scriptural evidence Chopper asked me to produce?
Yeah, but Jethro........... I challenge you to show 14 scriptures where this happened to two disciples, both named "Willie", like me. (Oh, sorry! I thought we were supposed to be seeing who could make the dumbest-sounding post.)
I hang around here so much, that I sometimes forget to think while posting.
I hang around here so much, that I sometimes forget to think while posting.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is from the video Willie posted of ABC's interview with John Wimber in post #15. He is credited with the founding of the Vineyard Church Movement:
John Wimber: Some people's experiences ought, in my opinion, be done in private, but evidently, God, doesn't do it that way.
We've tried to accomodate up here. We've carried people out of the room. We've taken them into other places. We've had teams assigned to do that. But the Lord just keeps inundating us with so many. We can't keep up.
............................
We've tried to accomodate up here. We've carried people out of the room. We've taken them into other places. We've had teams assigned to do that. But the Lord just keeps inundating us with so many. We can't keep up.
............................
Peter Jennings: So you do think that there are instances in the church where behavior in the church is too extreme?
John Wimber: Yes. Remember, not everyone who walks into our building's real healthy. Peter, some people have walked through some pretty tough things in life. They've been beaten, they've been abused, they've been sexually molested, and they've gone through long difficult histories with addiction. And so the Spirit of God touches them and they do things that you and I wouldn't probably do, and we don't want to do indoors or encourage.
John Wimber: Yes. Remember, not everyone who walks into our building's real healthy. Peter, some people have walked through some pretty tough things in life. They've been beaten, they've been abused, they've been sexually molested, and they've gone through long difficult histories with addiction. And so the Spirit of God touches them and they do things that you and I wouldn't probably do, and we don't want to do indoors or encourage.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You left out 'between the hours of 2 and 4 AM'.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
I found this interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Vineyard_Churches
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Vineyard_Churches
The first Local Church started when Kenn Gulliksen brought together two Bible studies, both meeting at the houses of singer/songwriters: Larry Norman and Chuck Girard.[4] In early 1975, thirteen groups met at the Beverley Hills Women's club.[5]:80 These Bible studies, and others like them, were attended by many popular actors/actresses and musicians including Bob Dylan.[5]:81 Gulliksen's Vineyard had spun off sister churches.
In 1977, John Wimber, an evangelical pastor and teacher on church growth, founded a Calvary Chapel in Yorba Linda, California.[1] Wimber's teaching on healing and the ministry of the Holy Spirit led to conflict. In a meeting with Calvary Chapel leaders, it was suggested that Wimber's church stop using the Calvary name and affiliate with Gulliksen's Vineyard movement.[6] In 1982, Wimber's church changed its name to the Anaheim Vineyard Christian Fellowship. Gulliksen turned over the churches under his oversight to Wimber, beginning his leadership of the Vineyard movement.
Beginning in 1988, Wimber established relationships with prophetic figures such as Paul Cain, Bob Jones, and Mike Bickle who pastored Kansas City Fellowship, an independent church which would come under the Vineyard banner as Metro Vineyard (see Kansas City Prophets). For a time, these men had considerable influence on Wimber and the Vineyard—according to Jackson, Wimber's son was delivered from drug addiction through a prophetic word from Jones.[7] However, there were those in the Vineyard who were skeptical, and Wimber himself became disillusioned over the restorationist teaching and failed prophecies of these men. Around 1991, Wimber began to distance himself from the prophetic movement, leading the Vineyard back to a church-planting direction, while Bickle's church withdrew and dropped the Vineyard label.
In 1977, John Wimber, an evangelical pastor and teacher on church growth, founded a Calvary Chapel in Yorba Linda, California.[1] Wimber's teaching on healing and the ministry of the Holy Spirit led to conflict. In a meeting with Calvary Chapel leaders, it was suggested that Wimber's church stop using the Calvary name and affiliate with Gulliksen's Vineyard movement.[6] In 1982, Wimber's church changed its name to the Anaheim Vineyard Christian Fellowship. Gulliksen turned over the churches under his oversight to Wimber, beginning his leadership of the Vineyard movement.
Beginning in 1988, Wimber established relationships with prophetic figures such as Paul Cain, Bob Jones, and Mike Bickle who pastored Kansas City Fellowship, an independent church which would come under the Vineyard banner as Metro Vineyard (see Kansas City Prophets). For a time, these men had considerable influence on Wimber and the Vineyard—according to Jackson, Wimber's son was delivered from drug addiction through a prophetic word from Jones.[7] However, there were those in the Vineyard who were skeptical, and Wimber himself became disillusioned over the restorationist teaching and failed prophecies of these men. Around 1991, Wimber began to distance himself from the prophetic movement, leading the Vineyard back to a church-planting direction, while Bickle's church withdrew and dropped the Vineyard label.
I related, here, about a small child at our church having her thumb cut off by a door and reattached. Would you believe that several people claimed "no miracle" when she had full function and feeling, no pain, and no scar, whatsoever. Someone didn't pick up her thumb off the floor, and jamb it back on, so it was just another normal day.