Limited atonement and 2 Cor 2:15,16,17

[stranger]

Hi all,

The following is a summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved. *efficacious is the capacity to produce an intended salvation outcome. The atonement is understood to be limited to those who are elect.

Now consider, do the following verses shed light on the doctrine of limited atonement?

2 Corinthians 2 (New American Standard Bible)
15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life And who is adequate for these things?
17For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

Considering from death to death, and from life to life could one say that the Cross produced the intended result in BOTH instances? If this is true Christ died for everybody producing two efficacious outcomes. From death to death would then be an efficacious outcome also.

For those who find this somewhat 'threatening' there is special meaning in the words: who is adequate for these things? Take comfort and counsel in Paul's apostolic words - 'we speak in Christ in the sight of God'.

Q Could one say that the Cross produced two intended results - from death to death and from life to life?

Any comments?

blessings

ps my summary changed to a summary in opening paragraph.

 

[Bubba]

I would be the first to admit that Scripture seems to present those whom God regenerates are the only ones who actually come to faith in Christ, but is this not referring to this present age? 1 Corinthians 15:19ff appears to suggest that the elect in this age are the “firstfruitsâ€Â, but there will be those who follow;
19if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.
20And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,
22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.â€Â
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

For God so loved the "WORLD"
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
That the 'world' God loves and that Christ died for ISNT just this 'elect' but also those who will reject Him and eventually fall into eternal torment because of THEIR decision to do so.


Supporting Evidence
Below we see that this 'world' includes BOTH the condemned AND those who believe and are not condemned

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the basis for judgment: The light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil. For everyone who practices wickedness hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his actions may not be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that all may see that his actions have been done in God."
(Joh 3 )KJV)

The context of the passage shows clearly that it is 'the WORLD' that is being spoken of...and this 'world' very clearly includes those who believe and are not condemned, and those who believe not and ARE condemned because they do not believe.
Whosoever of the WORLD that God LOVES that believes is not condemned.

Nowhere does this passage say that Jesus died ONLY for the elect or those who believe. It shows just the opposite, that He was sent into the world NOT to condemn it, but to offer the world salvation.

ALL in the WORLD were offered salvation. Those who CHOOSE to not believe in Jesus Christ will be condemned because of that choice.

 

[stranger]

I would be the first to admit that Scripture seems to present those whom God regenerates are the only ones who actually come to faith in Christ, but is this not referring to this present age? 1 Corinthians 15:19ff appears to suggest that the elect in this age are the “firstfruitsâ€Â, but there will be those who follow;
19if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.
20And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,
22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.â€Â
Bubba

Hello Bubba,

Yes indeed, Christ as the firstborn Son leads many sons into glory and this would include OT saints. Amongst the firstfruits in the NT are marvellous examples like the Samarian woman who persuaded Jesus to heal her daughter even though Jesus was reluctant at first - lets say about her election.

blessings

 

[stranger]

For God so loved the "WORLD"
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
That the 'world' God loves and that Christ died for ISNT just this 'elect' but also those who will reject Him and eventually fall into eternal torment because of THEIR decision to do so.


Supporting Evidence
Below we see that this 'world' includes BOTH the condemned AND those who believe and are not condemned

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the basis for judgment: The light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil. For everyone who practices wickedness hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his actions may not be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that all may see that his actions have been done in God."
(Joh 3 )KJV)

The context of the passage shows clearly that it is 'the WORLD' that is being spoken of...and this 'world' very clearly includes those who believe and are not condemned, and those who believe not and ARE condemned because they do not believe.
Whosoever of the WORLD that God LOVES that believes is not condemned.

Nowhere does this passage say that Jesus died ONLY for the elect or those who believe. It shows just the opposite, that He was sent into the world NOT to condemn it, but to offer the world salvation.

ALL in the WORLD were offered salvation. Those who CHOOSE to not believe in Jesus Christ will be condemned because of that choice.

Hello follower of Christ,

Though your post, like Bubba's are based on different texts - the outcome is similar and in basic agreement with the OP. I have another example in mind also and hope to post this soon.

blessings

 

[Ret]

Hi all,

The following is my summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved. *efficacious is the capacity to produce an intended salvation outcome. The atonement is understood to be limited to those who are elect.

I believe Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world...righteous and unrighteous, just the unrighteous do not know or they don't understand the need of forgiveness.....

 

[Bubba]

Hi all,

The following is my summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved. *efficacious is the capacity to produce an intended salvation outcome. The atonement is understood to be limited to those who are elect.

I believe Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world...righteous and unrighteous, just the unrighteous do not know or they don't understand the need of forgiveness.....

Yes, but do you believe that God's love will ultimately reconcile all creation at the end of all things? If so, that is truly love for the whole world.
Bubba
ps hopefulluy the moderators have mercy on me

 

[bleitzel]

...
The following is my summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved.
...
Q Could one say that the Cross produced two intended results - from death to death and from life to life? ...

I think all of your assertions here are flawed, quite frankly.

First, Christ died for the elect but all people are elect, the Jews first and the Gentiles next. There are no "unelect."

Second, Christ died to justify us before God, wiping away our sins, as long as we accept this gift. He's called the Lamb of God because instead of sacrificing a lamb as our sin offering each week to atone for the past week's sins, and doing this over and over again our whole lives, He became the sin offering for all our sins for all time. And his death completed that justification 100% efficaciously, on His end. The tough part is already done, the Judge is offering us a pardon. The gift is 100% efficaciously offered, all we have to do is accept to have it be 100% efficaciously delivered.

So in conclusion, no, His death on the cross only produced one outcome, He has offered us all salvation if we will accept Him and repent.

 

[stranger]

Hi all,

The following is my summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved. *efficacious is the capacity to produce an intended salvation outcome. The atonement is understood to be limited to those who are elect.

I believe Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world...righteous and unrighteous, just the unrighteous do not know or they don't understand the need of forgiveness.....

Yes, but do you believe that God's love will ultimately reconcile all creation at the end of all things? If so, that is truly love for the whole world.
Bubba
ps hopefully the moderators have mercy on me

Hi Bubba,

Creation itself groans waiting for the revealing of the sons of God (Romans) - but there are some who will never be sons of God.

blessings

 

[Joe67]

If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's Seed and heirs according to the promise.

Consider the object lesson that God worked out in experience of Abraham.

Abraham had 3 wives. Sarah, Hagar, and Katurah. Three distinct families.

In Isaac, through Sarah, is the Seed called.

Ishmael, through Hagar, is the counter image of the Calling in Isaac.

In Isaac one more development is revealed before there are the 12 divisions.

Katurah had many sons and they were given "gifts" and sent away to the east, apart from Isaac and the land of promise.

The "birthright" moved into the development of "election" in the manifestation of Jacob, who became Israel after he halted on his thigh, thus suffering infirmity.

"Atonement" is understood through Isaac and Jacob/Israel.

Those religions that are revealed through Hagar's son and Katurah's sons feel no need of atonement, though they take hold of Jesus' name in this present time.

Isa 4:1
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. KJV

Luke 21:8
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. KJV

Joe

 

[stranger]

stranger wrote:
The following is .. a .. summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved.
...
Q Could one say that the Cross produced two intended results - from death to death and from life to life? ...

bleitzel wrote:

I think all of your assertions here are flawed, quite frankly.

ok. . . but I am not asserting 'limited atonement' as it comes from reformed theology and I apply one assertion to it in the form of a question based on 2Cor 2:15-17.

First, Christ died for the elect but all people are elect, the Jews first and the Gentiles next. There are no "unelect."

I would disagree that all people are elect, but I would agree that the Gospel is to be preached to the Jew first and also to the gentiles. I don't use the term 'unelect'.

If all people are elect what do you make of the those whom Paul describes as perishing ...'from death to death' in contrast to those being saved ... 'from life to life' ? On this basis how can you say all people are elect?

2 Corinthians 2 (New American Standard Bible)
15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;
16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life And who is adequate for these things?
17For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

Second, Christ died to justify us before God, wiping away our sins, as long as we accept this gift. He's called the Lamb of God because instead of sacrificing a lamb as our sin offering each week to atone for the past week's sins, and doing this over and over again our whole lives, He became the sin offering for all our sins for all time. And his death completed that justification 100% efficaciously, on His end. The tough part is already done, the Judge is offering us a pardon. The gift is 100% efficaciously offered, all we have to do is accept to have it be 100% efficaciously delivered.

What about those who do not accept 'this' gift and who I assert are 'perishing .. from death to death?

So in conclusion, no, His death on the cross only produced one outcome, He has offered us all salvation if we will accept Him and repent.

I would agree that the gospel is preached to all men irrespective of whether or not they receive Him and repent - if that was your concern.

blessings

 

[Benoni]

stranger wrote:...
The following is my summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved.
...
Q Could one say that the Cross produced two intended results - from death to death and from life to life? ...

Could what your really saying is Jesus blood is weaker then the sin of Adam? The elect are not all believers. The elect are the overcomers who will become King’s and priest to the remainder of mankind.


Who are the elect? The Overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Overcomer and everyone else.
Just because you are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.
Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[stranger]

stranger wrote:...
The following is my summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved.

Q Could one say that the Cross produced two intended results - from death to death and from life to life?

Benoni wrote:

Could what your really saying is Jesus blood is weaker than the sin of Adam? The elect are not all believers. The elect are the overcomers who will become King’s and priest to the remainder of mankind.

No - that is not what I am saying. How do you arrive at that from 2Cor 2:15-17? 'Limited atonement' is not my invention - it comes from reformed theology. I am interested in the Corinthian passage with a view to asking what affect does the cross have on those who refuse to believe and be saved.

Who are the elect? The Overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Overcomer and everyone else.

Are you refering to two types within the saved community?

Just because you are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.
Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

You have gone on to discuss two groups within the saved community - my OP question was to address the saved community and the unsaved community. Does this clarify matters?

blessings

 

[stranger]

If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's Seed and heirs according to the promise.

Consider the object lesson that God worked out in experience of Abraham.

Abraham had 3 wives. Sarah, Hagar, and Katurah. Three distinct families.

In Isaac, through Sarah, is the Seed called.

Ishmael, through Hagar, is the counter image of the Calling in Isaac.

In Isaac one more development is revealed before there are the 12 divisions.

Katurah had many sons and they were given "gifts" and sent away to the east, apart from Isaac and the land of promise.

The "birthright" moved into the development of "election" in the manifestation of Jacob, who became Israel after he halted on his thigh, thus suffering infirmity.

"Atonement" is understood through Isaac and Jacob/Israel.

Those religions that are revealed through Hagar's son and Katurah's sons feel no need of atonement, though they take hold of Jesus' name in this present time.

Isa 4:1
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. KJV

Luke 21:8
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. KJV

Joe

Hi Joe,

Would you have a text reference to ' Katurah' ?

I recall Paul talks about the slave woman (Hagar) and the free woman (Sarah).

blessings

 

[Adullam]

stranger wrote:...
The following is my summary about limited atonement. The doctrine is based on the understanding that Christ died only for the elect. It is then argued that since the death of Christ is *efficacious - Christ could not have died for those who are not elect since it is felt that for whomever Christ died for will be saved.
...
Q Could one say that the Cross produced two intended results - from death to death and from life to life? ...

Could what your really saying is Jesus blood is weaker then the sin of Adam? The elect are not all believers. The elect are the overcomers who will become King’s and priest to the remainder of mankind.


Who are the elect? The Overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Overcomer and everyone else.
Just because you are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.
Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

You are referring here to the distinction between the righteous and the holy. Very good!

We as Christians are urged to go a step (a big step) further and be disciples of Christ. Only those being conformed into His image are the saints. This cannot be done on one's own...one must be fitted into the Body. It's a plural endeavour as well as a personal relationship with God through the Spirit. This is the subject of the epistles.

The saved righteous are repentant, humble, and fear the Lord. They obey the will of God. They aren't perfect by any means and are spread out over the earth. They are not necessarily even Christians. Jesus died not only for the elect but for all of mankind. It is God who shows mercy on whom He wills. His judgments are better than ours.

A saint is one who overcomes sin, the devil and the world through faith. In the next age the saints will rule over the righteous.

 

[Benoni]

Christ died for all people, Overcomers, great multitude and the unjust. All well be ultimately saved. The overcomers will become Kings and priest for the remainder of all mankind. Not all believers are overcomers as noted distictions between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

The great multitude are the saints, the overcomers will rule and reign. This is not a dishonorable thing to be part of the great multitude; but they are not the overcomers.

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

You are referring here to the distinction between the righteous and the holy. Very good!

We as Christians are urged to go a step (a big step) further and be disciples of Christ. Only those being conformed into His image are the saints. This cannot be done on one's own...one must be fitted into the Body. It's a plural endeavour as well as a personal relationship with God through the Spirit. This is the subject of the epistles.

The saved righteous are repentant, humble, and fear the Lord. They obey the will of God. They aren't perfect by any means and are spread out over the earth. They are not necessarily even Christians. Jesus died not only for the elect but for all of mankind. It is God who shows mercy on whom He wills. His judgments are better than ours.

A saint is one who overcomes sin, the devil and the world through faith. In the next age the saints will rule over the righteous.

[/quote]

 

[stranger]

Benoni wrote:

Christ died for all people, Overcomers, great multitude and the unjust. All will be ultimately saved. The overcomers will become Kings and priest for the remainder of all mankind. Not all believers are overcomers as noted distictions between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21).

Hello Benoni,

Many respondants so far have affirmed that 'Christ died for all' and have provided a brief explaination in support of their position. You seem to assume that when people say 'Christ died for all' they also mean 'all will ultimately be saved'. Would you agree that it is better to affirm that this before assuming they also believe 'all will ultimately be saved?' Are you an advocate of UR?

How do you reconcile 'All will be utlimately saved' with those who are 'perishing from death to death' in 2 Cor 2:15-17? The distinction here is between those being saved and those perishing. Talk to me about 2 Cor 2:15-17 and the question in the OP.

blessings

 

[Joe67]

Hi Joe,

Would you have a text reference to ' Katurah' ?

I recall Paul talks about the slave woman (Hagar) and the free woman (Sarah).

blessings

stranger,

The KJV on this version of PC Study Bible v3 spells the name, "Keturah."

Genesis 25:1,4 speaks of her as "wife."

1 Chronicles 1:32,33 speaks of her as "concubine."

Then Genesis 25:5,6 expands the testimony.
Gen 25:5-6
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country. KJV

Joe

 

[stranger]

stranger wrote:...

Q Could one say that the Cross produced two intended results - from death to death and from life to life?

Benoni wrote:

Could what your really saying is Jesus blood is weaker then the sin of Adam? The elect are not all believers. The elect are the overcomers who will become King’s and priest to the remainder of mankind.

Who are the elect? The Overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Overcomer and everyone else. Just because you are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.
Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Adullam wrote:

You are referring here to the distinction between the righteous and the holy. Very good!

I would say that those who are righteous are holy, and the holy are righteous. Those who claim to have Christ's righteousness, and live in sin, or are ruled by sin, are neither holy or righteous.

We as Christians are urged to go a step (a big step) further and be disciples of Christ. Only those being conformed into His image are the saints. This cannot be done on one's own...one must be fitted into the Body. It's a plural endeavour as well as a personal relationship with God through the Spirit. This is the subject of the epistles.

Aren't all Christians suppose to be saints and disciples of Christ?

The saved righteous are repentant, humble, and fear the Lord. They obey the will of God. They aren't perfect by any means and are spread out over the earth. They are not necessarily even Christians. Jesus died not only for the elect but for all of mankind. It is God who shows mercy on whom He wills. His judgments are better than ours.

Surprisingly you remind me of something John Owen once said: 'there are Christians who don't know that they are Christians'. I can accept that. Of the remaining description - I would say they are Christians not 'they are not necessarily even Christians'.

A saint is one who overcomes sin, the devil and the world through faith. In the next age the saints will rule over the righteous.

Would you say a saint is called to be righteous upon first hearing the Gospel? Do you support UR?

blessings

 

[stranger]

Hi Joe,

Would you have a text reference to ' Katurah' ?

I recall Paul talks about the slave woman (Hagar) and the free woman (Sarah).

blessings

stranger,

The KJV on this version of PC Study Bible v3 spells the name, "Keturah."

Genesis 25:1,4 speaks of her as "wife."

1 Chronicles 1:32,33 speaks of her as "concubine."

Then Genesis 25:5,6 expands the testimony.
Gen 25:5-6
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country. KJV

Joe

OK - I used the biblegateway search engine and it didn't find anything under Katurah.