Losing your salvation questions

[carlos123]

I would like to start a thread on this topic.

However, I want to start out this thread differently than most that might be related to this topic.

I want to be the student and you the teacher. I am looking for people who absolutely believe that you can lose your salvation to instruct me as to what they believe in answer to specific questions I pose to them so that I can better understand their belief.

Again my desire it to learn your position backwards and forward.

Why?

Two reasons.

First and foremost I want to understand your position expertly for the purpose of being able to refute your position adequately. Representing it accurately when I talk about it to others.

Second, there is always the possibility that the Lord might have something to teach me through what you believe such that I will change my mind as to what I think about this issue.

For the record I believe that one cannot lose their salvation but am open to thinking differently if a clear case can be made for such biblically and certain truths that I know from the Word can be overcome or sidestepped but I do NOT want this thread to become a thread where you might present any such presumably clear case to me.

I just want to ask questions centered around certain verses and get answers in this thread. That's IT!

I am NOT trying to direct a discussion under the guise of asking questions. I am NOT trying to get you. I am NOT trying to do anything other than to understand your position regarding certain verses.

In other words as far as I am concerned you have the floor with respect to sharing your heart out in answer to my specific questions.

Here is my first question. Again I am in learning mode. I just want to learn about your position. Not get into a discussion between your position and mine at all.

I just want to understand. Highlighting is mine.

Romans 8:2 NASB

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

What is the law of sin and death?

Please contrast these two laws for me and explain to me how they differ from one another.

There will be other questions that I may have about this depending on your answer but for now I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

Carlos

 

[Pard]

Good on you there Carlos. I'll enjoy reading this for as long as it hangs around. Maybe people will actually be civil, though I doubt it. They don't much like our view this way 'bout!

 

[carlos123]

Good on you there Carlos. I'll enjoy reading this for as long as it hangs around. Maybe people will actually be civil, though I doubt it. They don't much like our view this way 'bout!

Well...given that I will mainly just be asking questions to understand I am not sure if anyone will have anything to be uncivil about.

I offer myself as a student to learn subject only to being centered on answering my questions.

If by saying that they don't much like our view round here you mean that there are a lot of people here that believe one can lose their salvation...GREAT! I hope they show up and start answering my questions so that I can get on with my learning.

Carlos

 

[felix]

Carlos, I can challenge you on "one cannot lose their salvation", because I believe and can show you throughout scriptures that one can lose salvation.

Point #1: No one had ever received Salvation to lose it
The biggest problem many think about salvation is that they had already received salvation. But Scripture clearly says in (1Pet 1:5) and (Heb 9:28) that salvation will be revealed only during Christ's second coming.

Point #2: God can blot names from Book of Life
People who believe will have their names written on book of life as in (Phil 4:3). However, in (Rev 3:5), Christ Himself says to a church, if anyone does not overcome, He will blot him from Book of Life.

I can show many other things... but if you could read my 'Why did Jesus Christ had to die?' (in my signature), you will understand the whole process of how Christ saves us which will clarify all doubts and no more you need to believe anything blindly.

 

[carlos123]

Hi Felix,

Carlos, I can challenge you on "one cannot lose their salvation", because I believe and can show you throughout scriptures that one can lose salvation.

While I appreciate your input I am NOT interested in a challenge or discussing this issue with you, or anyone else.

For purposes of this thread I am ONLY interested in getting answers to the questions I posed (see first post).

Thanks.

Carlos

 

[felix]

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

What is the law of sin and death?

1. Law of sin and of death: The Law of Moses
(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

2. Law of the Spirit of life: Grace through Christ Jesus
(Rom 7:6) But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

 

[Former Christian]

Carlos123

Seems like common sense, that if God is the one who puts us into Christ, can't see how a mere mortal such as ourselves can change that.

FC

 

[Adstar]

I would like to start a thread on this topic.

However, I want to start out this thread differently than most that might be related to this topic.

I want to be the student and you the teacher. I am looking for people who absolutely believe that you can lose your salvation to instruct me as to what they believe in answer to specific questions I pose to them so that I can better understand their belief.

Again my desire it to learn your position backwards and forward.

Why?

Two reasons.

First and foremost I want to understand your position expertly for the purpose of being able to refute your position adequately. Representing it accurately when I talk about it to others.

Second, there is always the possibility that the Lord might have something to teach me through what you believe such that I will change my mind as to what I think about this issue.

For the record I believe that one cannot lose their salvation but am open to thinking differently if a clear case can be made for such biblically and certain truths that I know from the Word can be overcome or sidestepped but I do NOT want this thread to become a thread where you might present any such presumably clear case to me.

I just want to ask questions centered around certain verses and get answers in this thread. That's IT!

I am NOT trying to direct a discussion under the guise of asking questions. I am NOT trying to get you. I am NOT trying to do anything other than to understand your position regarding certain verses.

In other words as far as I am concerned you have the floor with respect to sharing your heart out in answer to my specific questions.

Here is my first question. Again I am in learning mode. I just want to learn about your position. Not get into a discussion between your position and mine at all.

I just want to understand. Highlighting is mine.



What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

What is the law of sin and death?

Please contrast these two laws for me and explain to me how they differ from one another.

There will be other questions that I may have about this depending on your answer but for now I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

Carlos

Not sure how the verse you bring forward relates to the topic that this thread is based on? But anyway i will provide an answer to your question.

law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus: This is the Law that anyone whom believes Jesus and trusts in the atonement for their sins made upon the day of His execution will be adjudged righteous in spirit and will be granted eternity with Jesus.


law of sin and death: This is the Moral Law also given by God through scriptures but also revealed by our God given conscience that reveals sin to the mind of people. The Law is good but it also carries a curse that anyone who breaks the Law shall die and not have eternity with Jesus. Since no man is perfect all men break the Law and therefore all men who reject Jesus are condemned by the Law for they have no atonement that covers all their sins.

Ok, hope i did a reasonable job in answering those two.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

I would like to start a thread on this topic.

However, I want to start out this thread differently than most that might be related to this topic.

I want to be the student and you the teacher. I am looking for people who absolutely believe that you can lose your salvation to instruct me as to what they believe in answer to specific questions I pose to them so that I can better understand their belief.

Again my desire it to learn your position backwards and forward.

Why?

Two reasons.

First and foremost I want to understand your position expertly for the purpose of being able to refute your position adequately. Representing it accurately when I talk about it to others.

Second, there is always the possibility that the Lord might have something to teach me through what you believe such that I will change my mind as to what I think about this issue.

For the record I believe that one cannot lose their salvation but am open to thinking differently if a clear case can be made for such biblically and certain truths that I know from the Word can be overcome or sidestepped but I do NOT want this thread to become a thread where you might present any such presumably clear case to me.

I just want to ask questions centered around certain verses and get answers in this thread. That's IT!

I am NOT trying to direct a discussion under the guise of asking questions. I am NOT trying to get you. I am NOT trying to do anything other than to understand your position regarding certain verses.

In other words as far as I am concerned you have the floor with respect to sharing your heart out in answer to my specific questions.

Here is my first question. Again I am in learning mode. I just want to learn about your position. Not get into a discussion between your position and mine at all.

I just want to understand. Highlighting is mine.



What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

What is the law of sin and death?

Please contrast these two laws for me and explain to me how they differ from one another.

There will be other questions that I may have about this depending on your answer but for now I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

Carlos

Not sure how the verse you bring forward relates to the topic that this thread is based on? But anyway i will provide an answer to your question.

law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus: This is the Law that anyone whom believes Jesus and trusts in the atonement for their sins made upon the day of His execution will be adjudged righteous in spirit and will be granted eternity with Jesus.


law of sin and death: This is the Moral Law also given by God through scriptures but also revealed by our God given conscience that reveals sin to the mind of people. The Law is good but it also carries a curse that anyone who breaks the Law shall die and not have eternity with Jesus. Since no man is perfect all men break the Law and therefore all men who reject Jesus are condemned by the Law for they have no atonement that covers all their sins.

Ok, hope i did a reasonable job in answering those two.


I await your next question.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Elijah674]

Carlos123

Seems like common sense, that if God is the one who puts us into Christ, can't see how a mere mortal such as ourselves can change that.

FC

How does one differ from Eve, while lets just say that she knowingly knew what the devil teaches at the start, (which she did not) and then for me to personally understand that what 'i' believe to be true, and now I go challenging this knowingly false stuff??

Hey, Eve could of even with this 'challenge' told God that I BELIEVE + I AM OSAS, so don't worry about me! And not only that lord, but you told the 'UNIVERSE' that I was created very GOOD! (women? Isa. 5:12??) And not only that lord, but he fell & is NO MATCH FOR ME! +!! SEEING THAT he was once your Covering Cherub
in heaven over your Eternal Law, I just knew that he could & would teach me some things???? :

Titus 3
[8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they [[are unprofitable and vain]].
[10] A man that is an heretick [[after the first and second admonition reject;]]
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Just wondering, who are the Saved ones seen here above???
And one talks of change?? We have had this Baptish satanic teaching for well/past any 120 years of the Holy Spirits STRIVING with NO CHANGE. + several other very false teachings, with one of these being, that of hell's full population are Immortal! with even maggots burning eternally!

So?? How any can and be safe IN CHRIST & then be LED by the Holy Ghost to dialoge with satan's believed stuff?? And not be VERY PRESUMPTIOUS as Inspiration has it! (where is that at? Read Psalms 19:13)

--Elijah

 

[felix]

Carlos123

Seems like common sense, that if God is the one who puts us into Christ, can't see how a mere mortal such as ourselves can change that.

FC

The problem is, when someone does things that do not reflect Christ in His life, yet believe in Christ (just as demons tremble before God), then s/he may not have Christ (or) never saved at the first place. Here, salvation was never lost because, it was never attained.

 

[Adullam]

Christianity is not about the type of salvation one thinks it is. Christianity is to walk in the power of a resurrected life in Christ. It is to walk as Jesus walked on this earth...as more than conquerors over sin and the pull of this present world.

What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

The law of the Spirit is the grace that we walk in which is the power of the life to come. In this power we do what Jesus did...we overcome sin and preach the truth. We bring light into the darkness and call out the slaves from their prisons to serve God in the light. So in the Spirit we walk EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as Jesus did on earth. We walk IN HIS LIFE. Those who walk in this newness of life will live.

What is the law of sin and death?

This is the natural way that men walk...in the power of the flesh and the futility of the human carnal mind. Men walk by their own eyesight and what feels right to them. It they can't sense it with the carnal senses, then it is not to be trusted. Those who walk according to the natural strength will die.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is the law of sin and death?

You sin, you die.

What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

Walk by the Spirit, you live.

Please contrast these two laws for me and explain to me how they differ from one another.

Romans 8:13 (NIV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die (the law of sin and death); but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (the law of the Spirit of life).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem is, when someone does things that do not reflect Christ in His life, yet believe in Christ (just as demons tremble before God), then s/he may not have Christ (or) never saved at the first place. Here, salvation was never lost because, it was never attained.

Which is why I think 'IF Saved, Always Saved' is probably more accurate.

Aka, ISAS.

 

[Adullam]

You sin, you die.



Walk by the Spirit, you live.




Romans 8:13 (NIV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die (the law of sin and death); but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (the law of the Spirit of life).

I love the simplicity of this!!!

 

[Adullam]

Which is why I think 'IF Saved, Always Saved' is probably more accurate.

Aka, ISAS.

Very good...this goes along with the "preservation of the saints" view.

 

[felix]

The problem is, when someone does things that do not reflect Christ in His life, yet believe in Christ (just as demons tremble before God), then s/he may not have Christ (or) never saved at the first place. Here, salvation was never lost because, it was never attained.

Which is why I think 'IF Saved, Always Saved' is probably more accurate.

Aka, ISAS.

It could be true that what I said is eternal security or once saved always saved, but it does not nullify the fact that Christ can blot a person who does not overcome from the book of Life as in Rev 3:5.

 

[carlos123]

Thanks for the input you all.

Some of you tried to answer my question and for that I am grateful but this thread is generally getting into a discussion of the once saved always saved / one can lose their salvation issue which I did not want to be involved in.

I just wanted my questions answered!

Oh well..

I'm going to another forum for my questions. Thanks again to those that tried to answer my questions.

Be well. I am unsubscribing from this thread.

Carlos

 

[JMJ]

Which is why I think 'IF Saved, Always Saved' is probably more accurate.

Aka, ISAS.

I do not think that a person's name can be blotted out of the Book of Life unless it had already been written in it previously.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 22:18-19 NKJV
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

A person has to actually have faith before he can deny his faith.

1 Timothy 5:8 (NKJV)
8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[Elijah674]

I would like to start a thread on this topic.

However, I want to start out this thread differently than most that might be related to this topic.

I want to be the student and you the teacher. I am looking for people who absolutely believe that you can lose your salvation to instruct me as to what they believe in answer to specific questions I pose to them so that I can better understand their belief.

Again my desire it to learn your position backwards and forward.

Why?

Two reasons.

First and foremost I want to understand your position expertly for the purpose of being able to refute your position adequately. Representing it accurately when I talk about it to others.

Second, there is always the possibility that the Lord might have something to teach me through what you believe such that I will change my mind as to what I think about this issue.

For the record I believe that one cannot lose their salvation but am open to thinking differently if a clear case can be made for such biblically and certain truths that I know from the Word can be overcome or sidestepped but I do NOT want this thread to become a thread where you might present any such presumably clear case to me.

I just want to ask questions centered around certain verses and get answers in this thread. That's IT!

I am NOT trying to direct a discussion under the guise of asking questions. I am NOT trying to get you. I am NOT trying to do anything other than to understand your position regarding certain verses.

In other words as far as I am concerned you have the floor with respect to sharing your heart out in answer to my specific questions.

Here is my first question. Again I am in learning mode. I just want to learn about your position. Not get into a discussion between your position and mine at all.

I just want to understand. Highlighting is mine.



What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

What is the law of sin and death?

Please contrast these two laws for me and explain to me how they differ from one another.

There will be other questions that I may have about this depending on your answer but for now I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

Carlos

Are you familiar with the Sanctuary teachings of the OT? They had the morning & evening required sacrifice to be done in faith, to be 'at present' saved. Then once a year the Atonement for the years end was required. This pointed to the last work of Christ as our High Priest. (Heb. covers this)

But if you can follow this through? The study will find the person saved by faith in the offering of the daily lamb sacrifice offered. Note Rom. 8:1, then Heb. 11's whole bunch of OT ones listed & then verse 13 ..

[1] Now [[faith is]] the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[2] For by it the elders obtained a good report. (SAVED IN OTHER WORDS)
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
[4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
....

[13] [[These all]] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, [[[and embraced them,]]] and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


But here is the bottom/line. When a Lamb was offered by one & in working obedient faith, the person was saved! OK: Now, but what if the person stated as some today do, Lord you say that I am Rom. 8:1 JUSTIFIED, so I am not needing to go on into the (WORK! James 2:26) washing at the lavor, or the required bread eating, (Matt. 4:4) but am now saved & am going on back home? Or to even skip the 'required' yearly service?

Note Lev. 17's day of attonement following the preceeding chapter 16's required proceedures.
Lev. 17
[8] And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, (Gentiles) that offereth a burnt offering of sacrifice,
[9] And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the LORD; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.

Even the Gentile won over to the Lord was required OBEDIENCE in all of the Lords requirements. We read Rom. 8:1 JUSTIFICATION, but see verse 14 of one being LED on further into MATURITY! (if they will be? Nah. 1:9)

Cain in Gen. 4:7 is another excellent example of one falling from Grace by free choice. Never was there any place even hinted at where this adult fruite farmer had dis/obeyed until here with a direct second chance offered to do the right thing in faith by Christ Himself in person and again be accepted!

Gen. 4
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Perhaps you can see that satan was found in this verse to receive his first full/fledged convert? Cain had sinned the sin against the Holy Ghost it appears, and now had a new 'desire' for satan alone.

--Elijah