Luke 8:13 - unpacked

[FreeGrace]

Luke 8:13 - “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. NASB

There has been much discussion of what Jesus meant in this verse. Some believe that the meaning of "fall away" means to fall away from salvation. The rationale being that they believed for a while, and therefore, are only saved for a while. The point being that one is saved only as long as one continues to believe.

However, others (including me) believe that "falling away" refers to "for a while". IOW, Jesus is just noting some who believe, and are therefore saved, but because of testing/temptation, they fail to continue to believe. Therefore, they only believe for a while, or, they "fall away" from their faith.

So, which view is correct? The only way to determine what "fall away" means is to look at the Greek word and its meaning.

The Greek word for "fall away" is a single word, "aphistemi". Here are the various ways it can be translated:
induce to revolt, withdraw, to desist or refrain from, to make defection, fall away, apostatize, to abstain from.

The form found in Luke 8:13 is a present tense, middle voice. The middle voice is instructive, and indicates that the action of the verb (fall away) is produced by the subject on the subject.

For more information on the voice, see http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdf.

Further, my Greek lexicon indicates that specifically in Luke 8:13, it carries the meaning of "to make defection, fall away, or apostatize".

These meanings eliminates any sense that "fall away" means to lose salvation. First, we all know that humans don't produce our own salvation. And the middle voice shows that it is we ourselves who do the falling away.

So, if falling away were to refer to loss of salvation, as some claim, then that would indicate that we participate in our own salvation, which is contradicted completely by Paul in two passages: Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

IOW, we cannot save ourselves, nor can we "un"-save ourselves.

So, the meaning of "fall away" in Luke 8:13 indicates that one simply ceases to believe. Without any indication of loss of salvation.

Please note that there are no verses anywhere in Scripture that tells us that one can lose salvation. None of the "warning verses" says so either. Those verses do warn believers, but it is not about loss of salvation.

 

[Obadiah]

Closed for moderator review.

 

[Obadiah]

Re-opened now. Sorry, meant to do this sooner. Let's ALL remember to respect each other, respect the ToS, and respect the A&T forum guidelines. Thanks.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Hello Free Grace,
I hope things are well with you. This is my favorite Parable.....done a lot of study on Mark 4 over the years.
I know you are in Luke 8:13 BUT Mark 4 does a great job explaining this as well.

Its talking about the word. Not a Christian falling away from anything..
Look at MARK 4:16-17 KJV
16....And these are they like wise which are sown on stony ground ; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17... And have NO ROOT IN THEM SELVES, and so endure but for a time; after word when AFFLICTION or PERSECUTION ariseth "FOR THE WORDS SAKE" , immediately they are offended.....

Once this type of ground or person gets offended the word falls to the way side or they forget all about what the word says. It never gets to take root. It never gets watered or as Luke says it lacks moisture. Therefore failing to withstand the devils goal on steeling the word from a believer. Persecution and Afliction are two of five ways the devil comes at you. Then way side has two ways that the believer self inflicts them selves and never even gets the word.

Have a wonderful and blessed day
Jim

 

[chessman]

Luke 8:13
The only way to determine what "fall away" means is to look at the Greek word and its meaning.

View attachment 6127

Of the 14 total occurences of the word, only two times is it translated "fall away". The majority of the time it's simply translated as "depart" or "go away", etc. So the point is that there is nothing inherently de-salvific in the word's meaning in and of itself. Obviously since Paul 'fell away' (or rather "departed") in Act 19:9 which is the same word used for what those on the rocky soil did.

So then the question is "fall away" from ____ what???

A. Fall away from Salvation? No. As you adaquately point out why not A in the OP.

B. Fall away from Belief? Possible but you didn't mention any reasons why (other than it's not salvation). Plus belief in what? The text doesn't say directly.

C. Fall away from Joy? Also Possible, very possible in fact! Here's why:

1. Matthew and Mark both use a different word than "aphistemi" for the rocky soil. They both (nearly word for word throughout the whole interpretation not just for soil 2) use "σκανδαλίζεται (skandalizetai). It is also translated as "fall away" sometimes but not always. But the point is, neither Greek word carries a de-salvific meaning. De-salvation (answer A) of soil #2 is simply pre-supposed upon the texts by some people.

2. Neither Matthew nor Mark even mention the rocky soil's belief, much less a specific object of their belief, such as belief in The Gospel. You could just as easily say they believed God created the world (Gen 1:1) or God hates evil or any other part of God's word. People assume Luke meant they believed The Gospel and it's a real stretch for Matthew's and Mark's account. So how could it be their falling from "belief", if their belief is not even mentioned by Matthew or Mark? It can't!

But all three authors mention their "immediate joy" and their "falling away"! Thusly, that seems to be what they fell away from (joy) and thus produced no fruit.

3. Look at what Jesus says in Mark's and Matthew's account of the same soil. He says immediate joy comes, persecution comes, immediate falling away comes in all three accounts:

Matt 13:20-21 (LEB) And what was sown on the rocky ground—this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy ... immediately he falls away

Mark 4:16-17 (LEB) And these are like the ones sown on the rocky ground, who whenever they hear the word immediately receive it with joy ... immediately they fall away.​

4. WRT couter points toward my 2) above, It's been said by others (not me) that Luke was the doctor/historian therefore Luke's account presents a better, more detailed account than Matthew or Mark. Hogwash! They all three are equally inspired, equally accurate in what they say about soil #2. Which obviously means soil 2's belief in The Gospel wasn't Jesus' central point. Else Matthew and Mark and The Holy Spirit would have mentioned soil #2's belief in The Gospel in all three accounts.

To me, it's obvious what Jesus meant; they departed (fell away from) from their immediate joy seems like the answer with the best evidence.

 

[FreeGrace]

View attachment 6127

Of the 14 total occurences of the word, only two times is it translated "fall away". The majority of the time it's simply translated as "depart" or "go away", etc. So the point is that there is nothing inherently de-salvific in the word's meaning in and of itself. Obviously since Paul 'fell away' (or rather "departed") in Act 19:9 which is the same word used for what those on the rocky soil did.

So then the question is "fall away" from ____ what???

A. Fall away from Salvation? No. As you adaquately point out why not A in the OP.

B. Fall away from Belief? Possible but you didn't mention any reasons why (other than it's not salvation). Plus belief in what? The text doesn't say directly.

C. Fall away from Joy? Also Possible, very possible in fact! Here's why:

1. Matthew and Mark both use a different word than "aphistemi" for the rocky soil. They both (nearly word for word throughout the whole interpretation not just for soil 2) use "σκανδαλίζεται (skandalizetai). It is also translated as "fall away" sometimes but not always. But the point is, neither Greek word carries a de-salvific meaning. De-salvation (answer A) of soil #2 is simply pre-supposed upon the texts by some people.

2. Neither Matthew nor Mark even mention the rocky soil's belief, much less a specific object of their belief, such as belief in The Gospel. You could just as easily say they believed God created the world (Gen 1:1) or God hates evil or any other part of God's word. People assume Luke meant they believed The Gospel and it's a real stretch for Matthew's and Mark's account. So how could it be their falling from "belief", if their belief is not even mentioned by Matthew or Mark? It can't!

But all three authors mention their "immediate joy" and their "falling away"! Thusly, that seems to be what they fell away from (joy) and thus produced no fruit.

3. Look at what Jesus says in Mark's and Matthew's account of the same soil. He says immediate joy comes, persecution comes, immediate falling away comes in all three accounts:

Matt 13:20-21 (LEB) And what was sown on the rocky ground—this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy ... immediately he falls away

Mark 4:16-17 (LEB) And these are like the ones sown on the rocky ground, who whenever they hear the word immediately receive it with joy ... immediately they fall away.​

4. WRT couter points toward my 2) above, It's been said by others (not me) that Luke was the doctor/historian therefore Luke's account presents a better, more detailed account than Matthew or Mark. Hogwash! They all three are equally inspired, equally accurate in what they say about soil #2. Which obviously means soil 2's belief in The Gospel wasn't Jesus' central point. Else Matthew and Mark and The Holy Spirit would have mentioned soil #2's belief in The Gospel in all three accounts.

To me, it's obvious what Jesus meant; they departed (fell away from) from their immediate joy seems like the answer with the best evidence.

Thanks for a very good exegesis of the verse! I can agree that the second soil departed or fell away from their joy.

However, Jesus was clear about believing "for a while", so it seems to me that they "departed" from what they had believed.

Either way, you've confirmed my point that in no way was Jesus indicating that they departed from their salvation.

Going outside the text, we know that Jesus taught that those who have believed are safe in His Father's hand (Jn 10).

 

[JLB]

However, others (including me) believe that "falling away" refers to "for a while". IOW, Jesus is just noting some who believe, and are therefore saved, but because of testing/temptation, they fail to continue to believe. Therefore, they only believe for a while, or, they "fall away" from their faith.

Yes they fall away from their faith, and no longer believe the Gospel Message.

They have become unbelievers, having returned to their former state, before they once believed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So, if falling away were to refer to loss of salvation, as some claim, then that would indicate that we participate in our own salvation, which is contradicted completely by Paul in two passages: Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

Who then Participates with God in the Salvation of their soul?

If the person doesn't choose to believe, then the person doesn't choose to not believe the Gospel Message.

Romans 10 teaches us that their are two people involved with God in the salvation of a person.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1. The first person who is receiving the message of the Gospel, must choose to believe in their heart and also confess with their mouth.
2. The second person involved must choose to go, when they are sent and also must choose to preach the Gospel Message.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"


Two different people are involved with God in the salvation process.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes they fall away from their faith, and no longer believe the Gospel Message.

Which doesn't translate to loss of salvation in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable.

They have become unbelievers, having returned to their former state, before they once believed.JLB

The error here is the assumption that they "return to their former state", which would be UN-regenerated, UN-born again, and UN-children of God.

If Luke 8:13 is the only verse to support such a view, that's a mighty thin line you're on.

But we know that the Bible doesn't support such a view, as previously shown.

Maybe you didn't read the OP, or very carefully, but the word for "fall away" is in the middle voice. So you are basically arguing that man can take himself out of God's hand, which is unsupported from Scripture.

The ONLY way man could remove himself from salvation is IF he can save himself in the first place. Do you see the point? Man doesn't save himself, so man has NO ability to UNsave himself.

And chessman's post was quite possible, that the second soil fell away from their joy, which has nothing to do with loss of faith or salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So, if falling away were to refer to loss of salvation, as some claim, then that would indicate that we participate in our own salvation, which is contradicted completely by Paul in two passages: Rom 4:4,5and Eph 2:8,9."

Who then Participates with God in the Salvation of their soul?

No one does. Salvation is from God alone (Heb 12:2). He needs no help or participation from anyone.

Your question is quite troubling. Why do you think anyone "participates" with God in salvation? The action of believing is NOT participation. If it were, then man IS helping God to save him. Which is totally unbiblical.

If the person doesn't choose to believe, then the person doesn't choose to not believe the Gospel Message.

What does any of this have to do with the issue? People change there minds all the time. But so what? That proves nothing. And you've shown nothing to support your claim.

Romans 10 teaches us that their are two people involved with God in the salvation of a person.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1. The first person who is receiving the message of the Gospel, must choose to believe in their heart and also confess with their mouth.
2. The second person involved must choose to go, when they are sent and also must choose to preach the Gospel Message.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

Of course the person who believes is "involved", because they are the person BEING saved by God. But that cannot be called "participation".

Two different people are involved with God in the salvation process.

This proves nothing at all. Sure, God is the One saving, and man is the one saved. That's all. Heb 12:2 proves that the salvation process is God's alone. Man has NO part in his salvation.

When man believes, THEN God saves. Man's act of saving is non-meritorious. If it were meritorious, then Paul would NOT have written either Rom 4:4,5 or Eph 2:8,9.

 

[JLB]

Which doesn't translate to loss of salvation in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God and God's gifts are irrevocable.

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

I know exact people in my life who fit all of these descriptions, and the only people who will make it into the Father's storehouse are the people with good soil.

This parable goes along with the true vine parable. John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

And

Matthew 13:37-39 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of age, and the harvesters are angels.

In so many of the parables you have to know that Jesus mentions those who don't produce, the Father cuts off.

 

[JLB]

I know exact people in my life who fit all of these descriptions, and the only people who will make it into the Father's storehouse are the people with good soil.

This parable goes along with the true vine parable. John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

And

Matthew 13:37-39 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of age, and the harvesters are angels.

In so many of the parables you have to know that Jesus mentions those who don't produce, the Father cuts off.

Yes Agreed.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person no longer believes the Gospel Message as the way to Salvation, then they have returned to being an unbeliever.

Please show me where anyone was said to have lost their salvation in the Bible. Specifically.

Do you have a scripture that teaches us "unbelievers" are saved?JLB

Silly request. The Bible treats as "unbelievers" those who have NEVER believed, and therefore, have NEVER received the free gift of eternal life. When one believes, they receive that gift, which is irrevocable.

I have proven OSAS from Romans. The gift of God is eternal life per Rom 6:23, and God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29. All from the same letter to the Romans. Context is everything.

No one has shown that Paul had something else in mind when he penned 11:29. What he clearly defined as a gift (charisma) were spiritual gifts (1:11), justification (5:15) and eternal life (6:23). And the next use of charisma was 11:29.

When the recipients read Paul's letter, when they got to 11:29, they would have been reminded of what Paul defined as the charisma of God: spiritual gifts, justifification, and eternal life.

And, nowhere in Romans did Paul specify that "gifts and calling" were promised to Israel. He was speaking about what he had already defined: spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life. These are the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I know exact people in my life who fit all of these descriptions, and the only people who will make it into the Father's storehouse are the people with good soil.

And this is based on what, exactly?

This parable goes along with the true vine parable. John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 15 is about fellowship with Christ, not getting or maintaining salvation.

In so many of the parables you have to know that Jesus mentions those who don't produce, the Father cuts off.

To be clear, the phrase "cut off" is always in an agricultural economy, and the people would understand the cutting off a branch as simply a branch that is not usable to the farmer. When used in a parable, it would refer to being unusable to God. Again, has nothing to do with either getting salvation or maintaining salvation.

Since spiritual gifts are from God (Rom 1:11), justification is called a gift in Rom 5:15, and eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23, and the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29, how do you square these Scripture with your view?

 

[LovethroughDove]

In the parable you are referencing. Luke 8:13

They believe for a while then don't because the testing of their faith, makes them now not believe. I know people like this. They are very close to me.

Just look at the previous scripture and it will show you. Luke 8:12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

So there is a point at which the believing can either stay with that person......forever...

Or, the devil can steal away that belief from their hearts. That is the point of this parable. the scripture you have from Romans, are those who have it in their hearts forever. There are some believers that have the devil take it from them for whatever reason, but Jesus was explaining that to us.

 

[gr8grace3]

To be clear, the phrase "cut off" is always in an agricultural economy, and the people would understand the cutting off a branch as simply a branch that is not usable to the farmer. When used in a parable, it would refer to being unusable to God. Again, has nothing to do with either getting salvation or maintaining salvation.

And to further verify that you are correct, even the fruitful mature believer has unproductive shoots removed.

New American Standard Bible
"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

In the parable you are referencing. Luke 8:13

They believe for a while then don't because the testing of their faith, makes them now not believe. I know people like this. They are very close to me.

Just look at the previous scripture and it will show you. Luke 8:12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

So there is a point at which the believing can either stay with that person......forever...

Or, the devil can steal away that belief from their hearts. That is the point of this parable. the scripture you have from Romans, are those who have it in their hearts forever. There are some believers that have the devil take it from them for whatever reason, but Jesus was explaining that to us.

Luke 8;12 is talking about a person who is walking along the wayside and hears the Word of God.
That person may not even fully understand what they are hearing.
The devil wastes no time, diverting the thoughts of that person elsewhere, so that they don't believe and get saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

In the parable you are referencing. Luke 8:13

They believe for a while then don't because the testing of their faith, makes them now not believe. I know people like this. They are very close to me.

It's always sad to know people who cease to believe the gospel.

Just look at the previous scripture and it will show you. Luke 8:12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

The point of 8:12 is that the first soil never believed.

So there is a point at which the believing can either stay with that person......forever…

Or, the devil can steal away that belief from their hearts. That is the point of this parable

But the devil didn't steal away any belief from anyone hearts. He stole the gospel message, which is different. And Jesus said nothing about the devil after the first soil. It was life's trials and testing that caused the second soil to lose their faith.

the scripture you have from Romans, are those who have it in their hearts forever.

That is not a condition for being saved. In Romans, those who have been given eternal life keep it because that gift from God is irrevocable.

There are some believers that have the devil take it from them for whatever reason, but Jesus was explaining that to us.

No, Jesus never said anything about the devil taking anything away from those who believe. His point was that life's circumstances can cause people to quit believing.

 

[LovethroughDove]

No, Jesus never said anything about the devil taking anything away from those who believe. His point was that life's circumstances can cause people to quit believing.

Luke 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Jesus said this. The devil will try to steal your faith from you.