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mark 3:21 and the virgin birth

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if you had bothered to actually read what i wrote, you'd know i said very specifically that "jesus came to FULFILL the law". if this meant working on the sabbath, dishonoring his mother, or being with lepers or prostitutes, so be it.

of course, this is all a distraction from the initial argument, which is that it makes no sense for jesus' family to think him mad when his mother gave birth to him a virgin.

you people seem to be holding my "doubt" against me, like i have no business talking about these things since i dount, as if you are better than me. this is exactly what jesus meant by "you honor me with your mouths, but your hearts are far from me".

In all of my posts not once did I accuse you of honoring the Lord with your lips and not with your heart, despite your doubt and unorthodox beliefs. Instead I took the time to bless you in the Name of our Lord, and yet you turn around and cruelly accuse me of such disgust as Mt. 15:8, and then bring slanderous claims of a lack of "gentleness, patience, and respect." So you tell me who is lacking gentleness, patience, and respect? The accuser or the accused?

If you had bothered to read my posts maybe you wouldn't have twisted my words around.
 
this is MY law. this is MY faith. this is MY jesus. this is MY christianity.

1 JOHN 3:18: let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed

GALATIANS 5:22-3: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

Romans 13:10 love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
 
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if you had bothered to actually read what i wrote, you'd know i said very specifically that "jesus came to FULFILL the law". if this meant working on the sabbath, dishonoring his mother, or being with lepers or prostitutes, so be it.

Well that's it, then. You already have it all figured out.

of course, this is all a distraction from the initial argument, which is that it makes no sense for jesus' family to think him mad when his mother gave birth to him a virgin.

It makes sense that they would be concerned and alarmed by the furor arising from His speech. It would be hard for those who knew Him intimately to suddenly switch to receiving Him as a radical teacher! Try and put yourself there! It's not hard.

you people seem to be holding my "doubt" against me, like i have no business talking about these things since i dount, as if you are better than me. this is exactly what jesus meant by "you honor me with your mouths, but your hearts are far from me".

Oh, ye of little faith. Doubt is the opposite of belief.

I take these kinds of threads as a kind of 'Devil's Advocate' stance. I don't think it does anything positive for the Body of Christ. If you are a true seeker of Christ, no problem, but you claim to know Jesus, yet you are denying basic truths about Him. Very big holes there, friend.

So, do you truly doubt in Jesus Christ, or are you playing 'Devil's Advocate' for sport? It's a serious question.

I hope someday to see you here with a new name: 'Trusting Thomas'!
 
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i feel the same way, and offer my sincere apologies

I'd prefer you offer apologies for accusing me of Mt. 15:8. That disgusting insult displayed such cruelty on your part, and because of it I will no longer participate in this thread.

God bless you. I hope the Lord gives you the answers you are searching for.
 
Well that's it, then. You already have it all figured out.

if that were true, i never would have started this thread.


It makes sense that they would be concerned and alarmed by the furor arising from His speech. It would be hard for those who knew Him intinately to suddenly switch to receiving Him as a radical teacher! Try and put yourself there! It's not hard.

i have tried to put myself there as a member of his family. as my brother or son, i would have more faith in him and not question his sanity.

Oh, ye of little faith. Doubt is the opposite of belief.

doubt is mental exercise. it's what god wants. people who test their faith. have you never heard "come thou fount of every blessing"?

I take these kinds of threads as a kind of 'Devil's Advocate' stance. I don't think it does anything positive for the Body of Christ. If you are a true seeker of Christ, no problem, but you claim to know Jesus, yet you are denying basic truths about Him. Very big holes there, friend.

just because you aren't a christian in the same way that i am makes neither of us more or less christian. unless you'd rather unleash the violence of the reformation again. if i have found holes, you have not found the dirt to fill them with. this is your problem as well as mine.

jesus broke the sabbath commandment. jesus broke the honor your mother commandment. so what. it's not a big deal to me. if it was, i would have started THAT thread.

So, do you truly doubt in Jesus Christ, or are you playing 'Devil's Advocate' for sport? It's a serious question.

i am not playing devil's advocate for sport. people like spong and crossant would be happy to call me a christian.
 
I'd prefer you offer apologies for accusing me of Mt. 15:8. That disgusting insult displayed such cruelty on your part, and because of it I will no longer participate in this thread.

im sorry, but you accused ME of twisting the bible, without ANY evidence. how are your actions any different than mine?. and i did not accuse you of mt 15:8. i only inferred that it maybe hit a nerve. at least i was able to apologize (though "disgusting" is going a bit too far). i guess people who doubt aren't allowed to beinsulted in the same way as true believers are. im sorry you've decided to sulk, pastor joe. i guess it was 1 peter 3:15 which you violated, not mt 15:8.

God bless you. I hope the Lord gives you the answers you are searching for

the problem is that god doesn't post on this forum, adn prayer seems to be a one way conversation when it comes to my issues with the bible. that's why i was hoping his more knowledgeable posters on this forum could fill in for him. i have to say, im still left with the same question:

how could his family think him mad when mary gave birth to him a virgin. it just doesn't add up.
 
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im sorry, but you accused ME of twisting the bible, without ANY evidence. how are your actions any different than mine?. and i did not accuse you of mt 15:8. i only inferred that it maybe hit a nerve. at least i was able to apologize. i guess people who doubt aren't allowed to insulted in the same way as true believers are. im sorry you've decided to sulk, pastor joe. i guess it was 1 peter 3:15 which you violated, not mt 15:8.

Please keep speaking from the overflow of your heart.
 
Please keep speaking from the overflow of your heart.

i did, in this post

this is MY law. this is MY faith. this is MY jesus. this is MY christianity.

1 JOHN 3:18: let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed

GALATIANS 5:22-3: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

Romans 13:10 love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


i wont hold my breath for an apology or explanation from your disgusting comment that i twisted the bible.
 
i did, in this post




i wont hold my breath for an apology or explanation from your disgusting comment that i twisted the bible.

James 3:9 (NIV)
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness.

Please forgive me brother "doubting thomas" for offending you by accusing you of twisting the Bible. That was not my heart's intent at all.

Please Lord, forgive me of offending my brother and wash me clean in your blood. Thank you for forgiving me Lord. Please bless "doubting thomas" with your peace, love, and wisdom. In Your Holy Name I pray. Amen.
 
if that were true, i never would have started this thread.

Hmmm...

i have tried to put myself there as a member of his family. as my brother or son, i would have more faith in him and not question his sanity.
Easy to say 2100 years later and in a totally different culture.


doubt is mental exercise. it's what god wants. people who test their faith. have you never heard "come thou fount of every blessing"?

No it isn't and it isn't at all what God wants for us! Prove it by Scripture! God wants us to put all our faith and trust in Him and His word, believing that what He says is the truth.

We don't test our faith! God will, however! Why? So that we will NOT doubt! He is pleased by our faith.


just because you aren't a christian in the same way that i am makes neither of us more or less christian. unless you'd rather unleash the violence of the reformation again. if i have found holes, you have not found the dirt to fill them with. this is your problem as well as mine.

I have no problem with holes. Jesus is my all in all. When the scriptures tell me that a virgin girl was impregnated with the Son of God, I don't question it.

jesus broke the sabbath commandment. jesus broke the honor your mother commandment. so what. it's not a big deal to me. if it was, i would have started THAT thread.

There was never any dishonour coming from the sinless Christ. Get that clear. If you think Jesus was a sinner, then your belief is based on a lie, and that IS a big deal. All Christians hold the same belief about Jesus.

i am not playing devil's advocate for sport. people like spong and crossant would be happy to call me a christian.

What is important is if Jesus would do so. Unbelief needs repentance, as it blocks the move of God in one's life.
 
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can i ask you a seperate question: why call jesus the prince of peace when jesus said he came here not to bring peace but a sword (even if that sword is metaphorical). does it mean prince of peace in the kingdom of god, which is yet to come (since his kingdom is not of this world)? cause that would obviously make more sense

Isaiah 9 (New International Version, ©2010)

Isaiah 9

1 [a]Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—

2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of deep darkness
a light has dawned.
3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as warriors rejoice
when dividing the plunder.
4 For as in the day of Midian’s defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.
5 Every warrior’s boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

The LORD’s Anger Against Israel

8 The Lord has sent a message against Jacob;
it will fall on Israel.
9 All the people will know it—
Ephraim and the inhabitants of Samaria—
who say with pride
and arrogance of heart,
10 “The bricks have fallen down,
but we will rebuild with dressed stone;
the fig trees have been felled,
but we will replace them with cedars.â€
11 But the LORD has strengthened Rezin’s foes against them
and has spurred their enemies on.
12 Arameans from the east and Philistines from the west
have devoured Israel with open mouth.
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.

13 But the people have not returned to him who struck them,
nor have they sought the LORD Almighty.
14 So the LORD will cut off from Israel both head and tail,
both palm branch and reed in a single day;
15 the elders and dignitaries are the head,
the prophets who teach lies are the tail.
16 Those who guide this people mislead them,
and those who are guided are led astray.
17 Therefore the Lord will take no pleasure in the young men,
nor will he pity the fatherless and widows,
for everyone is ungodly and wicked,
every mouth speaks folly.

Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.

18 Surely wickedness burns like a fire;
it consumes briers and thorns,
it sets the forest thickets ablaze,
so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke.
19 By the wrath of the LORD Almighty
the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire;
they will not spare one another.
20 On the right they will devour,
but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
but not be satisfied.
Each will feed on the flesh of their own offspring:
21 Manasseh will feed on Ephraim, and Ephraim on Manasseh;
together they will turn against Judah.

Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.

amen
 
family there is

"associates"
"friends"


you have to get a decent translation-- of course i can be finding the one i want to hear

so

Mark 3 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)


this is a valuable link....

----

If you see a contradiction Thomas don't come here and argue it....

what the use you know....

we won't agree and you are set in stone


but that should clear it up


------
what translation did you have?
 
Hmmm...


Easy to say 2100 years later and in a totally different culture.

fair enough


No it isn't and it isn't at all what God wants for us! Prove it by Scripture! God wants us to put all our faith and trust in Him and His word, believing that what He says is the truth.

good gave us free will. that means god wants us to chose him. that means we have to make the choice. god also gave us critical faculties unlike any other animal. that means god wants us to come to him through reason and deliberation. that means there will come doubt. these are what the great hymns are about.

but off the top of my head, phil 1:9, prov 12:1, acts 17:11-12, 1 cor 13:13 (the fact that faith is not the greatest of these)

i should backtrack and say god does not encourage us to doubt. what i meant to say is that god wants genuine faith, and the only real genuine faith is that which has been tested. if you've never doubted you've probably not thought hard enough about your beliefs.


I have no problem with holes. Jesus is my all in all. When the scriptures tell me that a virgin girl was impregnated with the Son of God, I don't question it.

well i do. i dont think the bible is inerrant. and i certainly dont have the hubris or audacity to claim that those who do or do not or somehow less are more christian than others. this is the apologetics thread! apologetics is all about making sense of the holes, trying to fill them in with reason.

There was never any dishonour coming from the sinless Christ. Get that clear. If you think Jesus was a sinner, then your belief is based on a lie, and that IS a big deal. All Christians hold the same belief about Jesus.

did jesus work on the sabbeth? yes or no. (the answer, as i gave biblical support for, is yes). did jesus break a commandment? yes. did jesus break many OT laws? yes. does this mean he sinned? no! "get that clear!" FULFILLMENT of the law.


What is important is if Jesus would do so. Unbelief needs repentance, as it blocks the move of God in one's life.[/QUOTE]

good grief, theology (the name of this thread) is all about figuring out if jesus would do so. people like spong and crossant have different views than you do. neither you nor they are any more or less christian. this is like the bloody reformation, when everyone went around saying they were the real christians and everyone else was a heretic. please.

this is my faith. i dont care if you think it doesn't make me a christian or not. i think jesus would consider me a christian, i think paul would consider me a christian, and there are a lot of respected theologians who would agree with me (and many who would not)

1 JOHN 3:18: let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed

GALATIANS 5:22-3: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

Romans 13:10 love is the fulfillment of the law.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

bed time.
 
God wants us to come to Him with a CHILDLIKE FAITH, not reasoned out deliberation.

Matthew 18:3 NLT
Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.



Did Jesus dishonour His mother? No.

You can love and spout love scriptures until the cows come home, but unless one accepts Jesus Christ as the sinless Lamb of God whose blood cleanses a person from all sin, then one isn't saved....why bother trying to be the very best or most loving person in hell? Either Jesus is who He says He is or He isn't. We need the faith He gives to believe it. That is where we need to put our energies...not in doubting.
 
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jesus sought me when a stranger,
Wandering from the fold of God;
He, to rescue me from danger,
Interposed His precious blood.

O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I'm constrained to be!
Let that grace now like a fetter,
Bind my wandering heart to Thee.
Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here's my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

YouTube - Sufjan Stevens
 
Matthew 18:3 NLT
Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

sorry, i had to add this.... enter the kingdom of heaven? you need a whole lot more than becoming like little children (a metaphor repeatedly used by jesus, which does not mean "stop thinking rationally like an adult")

Mt 5:20
mt 7:21
lk 14:26
lk 14:33
lk 18:22
mt 19:21-23


You can love and spout love scriptures until the cows come home, but unless one accepts Jesus Christ as the sinless Lamb of God whose blood cleanses a person from all sin, then one isn't saved....why bother trying to be the very best or most loving person in hell? Either Jesus is who He says He is or He isn't. .

agreed. never said otherwise. im the one who quoted john 3:16. i dont see what any of that has to do with a virgin birth, or breaking the sabbath or dishonoring his mother. jesus broke OT laws. this is a fact. but jesus did not sin.

We need the faith He gives to believe it. That is where we need to put our energies...not in doubting

my energy is not in doubting. my energy is in thinking. and to be honest, jesus makes it very clear where our energies need to be put ... in charity. that's why he says charity is more important than faith (1 corinthains 13:13)

peace be with you
 

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