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Marriage: On What Basis?
- Thread starter Tissue
- Start date
I am not gay.
The Bible may be clear, but the Bible is not the only source for our authority. Reason, experience, and tradition should not be overlooked.
For the purposes of this topic, I am not considering the Scripture passages concerning marriage and homosexuality to be conclusive on this matter (though they are certainly relevant).
EDIT: Of course, there are a number of people who would argue against the traditional interpretation of verses condemning homosexuality.
The Bible may be clear, but the Bible is not the only source for our authority. Reason, experience, and tradition should not be overlooked.
For the purposes of this topic, I am not considering the Scripture passages concerning marriage and homosexuality to be conclusive on this matter (though they are certainly relevant).
EDIT: Of course, there are a number of people who would argue against the traditional interpretation of verses condemning homosexuality.
Such a strict view of Scripture is not held by all Christians, or even by most Christians. It is not held by me. Thus, for the purposes of this topic, as said before, we will be participating in a discussion that does not begin and exist and end in Scripture, but will employ our tradition, reason, and experience, while using Scripture.
EDIT: I also, for the purposes of this topic, don't care about whether or not persons who would, hypothetically, participate in a non-heterosexual marriage go to heaven or not, unless that ties directly into how you understand marriage. In which case, I'd be interested in hearing it.
EDIT: I also, for the purposes of this topic, don't care about whether or not persons who would, hypothetically, participate in a non-heterosexual marriage go to heaven or not, unless that ties directly into how you understand marriage. In which case, I'd be interested in hearing it.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
marriage began with God took from adams side and made him a woman. Then God said that the two of them became ONE FLESH.Tissue said:
a wife is considered to be bone of her husbands bone and flesh of his flesh and the two together become ONE.
God did not take from adams side and made another adam. He took from Him something, and used it to create a weaker vessel- a woman and then he told them to be fruitful and multiply which they did and through their unity being ONE they create fruit of life.
Likewise with Christ, He has made us His wife and He says that we are ONE with Him. He also says that WE ARE HIS FLESH and BONE! And through US abiding in unity with him, we bare fruit of Christ together and that fruit is LIFE.
Tina said:
Whoa whoa whoa, back up.
1) I'm fully aware this is a Christian forum, and I am a Christian.
2) We (referring to Christians) discuss in terms of Scripture, reason, tradition, and experience. I'm sticking to my Wesleyan Quadrilateral. At any rate, the depth and breadth of Christian philosophy is far too deep to stick to a shallow 'Scripture-only' rule. God gave us reason; let us come together and use it. If we find, through reason, that particular thing is impossible, then we must reject it, even if Scripture appears to speak in such a way. If we find, through experience, that something is not true, then we must reject it, even if Scripture appears to speak that way (remember Galileo?). I'm not saying Scripture is wrong; far from it. It is the single most beautiful book I have ever touched. I read it and it changes my life. I plan to spend the rest of my life plumbing its depths and leading a congregation. But we cannot stick to JUST Scripture. There is nothing but trouble down that route; the history of Christianity depicts just quite well.
3) You haven't noted the subtlety in what I'm saying; I'm not saying I am a non-Biblical Christian. I'm saying I'm not a fundamentalist. I am a Biblical Christian. Most of what I know about Christianity has come from the Bible. What I'm saying is that your narrow view on what is a proper understanding of Scripture and what is not is rather singular, and has (to my knowledge) never been the majority view in the history of Christianity. Fundamentalism has exploded in the last century, to be sure, but it is nowhere near a majority of Christianity.
Tina said:
Again, I just don't think you understand the parameters I've outlined for the discussion. I don't care about whether or not homosexuality is 'right' or 'wrong' in a theological or 'Christian' sense. What I am wondering is, how we should understand marriage in our world today. A world that in which Christianity is not the majority opinion. A world in which marriage is, to a large extent, officiated by the government. A world in which non-Christians marry. A world in which, in Iowa, homosexuals are allowed to marry. What is our definition? Why is that our definition?
shad said:
There are thousands upon thousands of denominations. There are billions of different ways of understand Christianity (one for every person).
We are one body. We are different. Insofar as God is our collective focus, despite our differences, sure. We might be described, with a large amount of poetic license, as a 'theocracy.' But you appear to be implying something else.
shad said:
That simply isn't true. Catholics, for example, hold that Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium form the basis for the revelation of God's truth. Various other, non-Catholic denominations and Christian movements do not adhere the strict Scripture view that you and Tina are speaking of.
It isn't an 'all-or-nothing' matter. There are many different ways of understanding Scripture. I'm not interested in discussing that particular matter here. What I am interested in is discussion; one that does not only speak of Scripture, but of our experience, reason, and tradition.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
i agree christians reason through the scriptures
there was something very telling in what you said above about reasoning and not just sticking to scripture- you spoke about " christian philosophy" and i am sure you will not want me to be picky about wordings but this does reveal alot. When you want to not just reason based on scripture and speak of christian " philosphy" we bring in a problem because the bible itself warns us about philosphy. the meaning in greek of philosophy means " the love of mens wisdom" and this is some thing we are told to count as nothing.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I would argue to you that if you think the scripture insufficent for reasoning with and deciding and believeing all truth through, then you have not deeply enough studied the scriptures in faith and renewed your mind by the washing of the water of the word.- The depths that are found therein are endless in wisdom and understanding.
I would also argue to you, that if you believe that it has been the sticking soley to scripture that has been the cause of problems, then you have not understood yet that it is when do not stick to the scriptures but begin to tread dangeoursly in their own wills and desires and reasonings that they use only the scriptures that suit their lust to commit evil in the name of the word, but the word itself reveals that it was the men who did not obey the word of truth.
We see something interesting about reasoning in the word of God that we do well to learn from.- " reasoning" is what the pharaees and scribes often did in their unbelief and wicked hearts.OR what His disciples did when they were having a lack of faith- it was the way their FLESH tried to figure out what their were not believing.
Mat 16:8 [Which] when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
There is no need to go outside of scripture. In fact paul told us not to go beyond what is written.-Besides that we do not have a mind so that we can think for ourselves and reason outside of the word of God- we have a mind so that we can love God with all our mind, and renew our minds by the word of God so that we will have the mind of Christ Jesus.
there was something very telling in what you said above about reasoning and not just sticking to scripture- you spoke about " christian philosophy" and i am sure you will not want me to be picky about wordings but this does reveal alot. When you want to not just reason based on scripture and speak of christian " philosphy" we bring in a problem because the bible itself warns us about philosphy. the meaning in greek of philosophy means " the love of mens wisdom" and this is some thing we are told to count as nothing.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I would argue to you that if you think the scripture insufficent for reasoning with and deciding and believeing all truth through, then you have not deeply enough studied the scriptures in faith and renewed your mind by the washing of the water of the word.- The depths that are found therein are endless in wisdom and understanding.
I would also argue to you, that if you believe that it has been the sticking soley to scripture that has been the cause of problems, then you have not understood yet that it is when do not stick to the scriptures but begin to tread dangeoursly in their own wills and desires and reasonings that they use only the scriptures that suit their lust to commit evil in the name of the word, but the word itself reveals that it was the men who did not obey the word of truth.
We see something interesting about reasoning in the word of God that we do well to learn from.- " reasoning" is what the pharaees and scribes often did in their unbelief and wicked hearts.OR what His disciples did when they were having a lack of faith- it was the way their FLESH tried to figure out what their were not believing.
Mat 16:8 [Which] when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
There is no need to go outside of scripture. In fact paul told us not to go beyond what is written.-Besides that we do not have a mind so that we can think for ourselves and reason outside of the word of God- we have a mind so that we can love God with all our mind, and renew our minds by the word of God so that we will have the mind of Christ Jesus.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Hbr 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hbr 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Goodness. I have no idea what to say.
If you don't like the parameters of the discussion, then please do not post here. I'm not interested in discussing the nature of Scripture and its information for our lives. It's clear that some of you have difficulty conversing with Christians who think differently than you do.
I mean, I'm really flabbergasted. I attend a rather conservative college, and this sort of discussion would be completely non-controversial there.
If you don't like the parameters of the discussion, then please do not post here. I'm not interested in discussing the nature of Scripture and its information for our lives. It's clear that some of you have difficulty conversing with Christians who think differently than you do.
I mean, I'm really flabbergasted. I attend a rather conservative college, and this sort of discussion would be completely non-controversial there.