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MegaChurches Drive Me MegaCrazy
- Thread starter Tony
- Start date
handy
Member
I'm with 'ya Tony! I cannot fathom the need to build multi-million dollar buildings with all the bells and whistles, when the money could be so better used.
I don't like the idea of a local church of +1000 people anyway. I like much, much smaller congregations. Now, that's a personal preference of mine, I just feel like when I'm in a small church, (the church I go to has about 80-100 people) then I feel much more connected to family. But then, I've always been sort of lost in a large crowd anyway.
The main thing about the mega-church "campus" though is the cost. I just don't see spending that much money to build bigger and bigger and bigger buildings, when the money can do so much more for the Kingdom otherwise.
And, naturally, as I'm typing this, I'm thinking of how it was Judas Iscariot that got all riled up when Mary broke the alabaster vase and poured out the costly spikenard on Jesus, because she could have spent the money on the poor instead.
I don't like the idea of a local church of +1000 people anyway. I like much, much smaller congregations. Now, that's a personal preference of mine, I just feel like when I'm in a small church, (the church I go to has about 80-100 people) then I feel much more connected to family. But then, I've always been sort of lost in a large crowd anyway.
The main thing about the mega-church "campus" though is the cost. I just don't see spending that much money to build bigger and bigger and bigger buildings, when the money can do so much more for the Kingdom otherwise.
And, naturally, as I'm typing this, I'm thinking of how it was Judas Iscariot that got all riled up when Mary broke the alabaster vase and poured out the costly spikenard on Jesus, because she could have spent the money on the poor instead.
T
Theofilus
Guest
There's a church just a few blocks from my home and just across the street from my work. It has a single stained-glass window on the front that cost about $200,000. The pipe organ inside cost about 1.5 million dollars. Here's a picture of the window with the church around it.
Every time I walk by that church, I can't help but think "how many children would not have to starve if that money had been spent differently?"
Every time I walk by that church, I can't help but think "how many children would not have to starve if that money had been spent differently?"
Pard
Member
I am against mega churches because I don't like having lots of people, it becomes impersonal. I like the "cozy" church. I can know the name of every member and I can have a personal relationship with each and every one of them.
Though I think these mega churchs are to big and to expensive and I agree that the money could be used far better elsewhere I also see two other views.
First, there is nothing wrong with a church that big. If you have attendance in the 1000s GOOD FOR YOU! Good for you. I can only relate based on what a "small" church has. My church has maybe 30 "regulars" It is a small building, maybe 1000 or 1500 square feet. We have a main room for sermons on sundays upstairs, along with a two bathrooms, two side rooms, and a daycare. The basement has a kitchen, two offices, a living room, a childrens room, two bathrooms. Remember, that is for like 30 or 40 people. We utilize every room (except maybe the down stairs children's school). If we scale this building up to one of these giant 10,000+ mega churches, I can really see where all that money is gonna be needed!
Second, feeding the homeless and such is important, but isn't the most important order "Go!"? The great commission should come first, because that is our job, the spread the Word. Doesn't a giant mega church help that? I honestly don't know, but I expect it would help out. People like to be "a part of something" and there is plenty of room to be "a part of something" in those giant churches!
Though I think these mega churchs are to big and to expensive and I agree that the money could be used far better elsewhere I also see two other views.
First, there is nothing wrong with a church that big. If you have attendance in the 1000s GOOD FOR YOU! Good for you. I can only relate based on what a "small" church has. My church has maybe 30 "regulars" It is a small building, maybe 1000 or 1500 square feet. We have a main room for sermons on sundays upstairs, along with a two bathrooms, two side rooms, and a daycare. The basement has a kitchen, two offices, a living room, a childrens room, two bathrooms. Remember, that is for like 30 or 40 people. We utilize every room (except maybe the down stairs children's school). If we scale this building up to one of these giant 10,000+ mega churches, I can really see where all that money is gonna be needed!
Second, feeding the homeless and such is important, but isn't the most important order "Go!"? The great commission should come first, because that is our job, the spread the Word. Doesn't a giant mega church help that? I honestly don't know, but I expect it would help out. People like to be "a part of something" and there is plenty of room to be "a part of something" in those giant churches!
Can't help you there, Fellows. My wife and I are members of Community Bible Church in San Antonio, Texas, which we watch on the internet. They had over 16,000 in attendance recently. They have extensive soul-winning and service ministries to all racial groups, dynamic, life-changing preaching, and a solid stand for Christ.
And while I'm panning Bible college on another thread, my wife and I had been members of the First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana when it was the world's largest Sunday School. People were getting saved every week, and every sermon was dynamite.
And while I'm panning Bible college on another thread, my wife and I had been members of the First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana when it was the world's largest Sunday School. People were getting saved every week, and every sermon was dynamite.
Mike
Member
Church size preferences probably have a lot to do with what you are used to. I've always felt mega-churches would be too big, but I hear members say they have enough smaller groups to satisfy the personal touch. Having kids, it's important to us that a church has a lot of resources to keep them (and us) involved. We have a school attached to ours, so it's a pretty vibrant community. We worship about 1500 people per week. I must admit that as involved as I am, there are many people I don't know. I couldn't even tell if someone was visiting or I just don't know them. I'm not comfortable with that to be honest.
As for the money it takes to run and pay for a megachurch. This reminds me of threads about how much money is too much money for a Christian. So how much money IS too much money for a church. Where do you cross the line? Do we "need" cushioned seats? Do we "need" seats at all? I suspect I could visit every member's church and find things they spent money on and don't actually need. That money could have been used for the poor. I'm not condoning outrageous spending, but when does spending become "outrageous" and who determines when it's reached that point? It's like a person who owns a Ford Focus judging a person who owns a Porsche for living in excess; and then a person on a bicycle rides up next to the guy in the Focus and judges him. Where does it end???
If a person grows closer to the Lord at a megachurch, good.
If a person grows closer at a small one, good. But I don't think very many people have the room to determine that they're not using their money appropriately.
just sayin'
As for the money it takes to run and pay for a megachurch. This reminds me of threads about how much money is too much money for a Christian. So how much money IS too much money for a church. Where do you cross the line? Do we "need" cushioned seats? Do we "need" seats at all? I suspect I could visit every member's church and find things they spent money on and don't actually need. That money could have been used for the poor. I'm not condoning outrageous spending, but when does spending become "outrageous" and who determines when it's reached that point? It's like a person who owns a Ford Focus judging a person who owns a Porsche for living in excess; and then a person on a bicycle rides up next to the guy in the Focus and judges him. Where does it end???
If a person grows closer to the Lord at a megachurch, good.
If a person grows closer at a small one, good. But I don't think very many people have the room to determine that they're not using their money appropriately.just sayin'
handy
Member
Yeah Mike, I hear what you are saying. When I truly look at the Scriptures regarding regarding how one spends money, I find that the Lord really gives no commandment, other than whatever we choose to give, we give cheerfully and willingly. Even when Ananias and Sapphira sinned, it wasn't because they gave x amount of dollars and kept some for themselves, it was because they lied about it. They were told that the money was theirs to do with as they pleased.
A million dollar pipe organ, I'll bet the quarter of a million dollar one sounds horrible
School for the kids, Sunday classes, bible study wednesday's, social get togethers, it's as if we don't ever need to leave. I gotta tell ya' I don't want to hang out with a bunch of Christians all week, every week looking at a beautiful 200k stained glass window!
We Christians are strong in number, here's an idea... Lets end homelessness! Come on Tony! Seriously, we have always had homeless people, children, families, right? What if churches team up?, one body? The small church to the mega.
Thank god for shelters and those who run them, though a lot of times families are split between shelters, lack of address or phone or self esteem make job hunting tough.
In my neck of the woods, a million dollar organ can buy a lot of homes, keep a lot of homes from going into forclosure, together with transition programs no family would have to sleep under a bridge.
I could go on and on though I hope I haven't. Bottom line, I believe we Christ followers are missing opportunities.
School for the kids, Sunday classes, bible study wednesday's, social get togethers, it's as if we don't ever need to leave. I gotta tell ya' I don't want to hang out with a bunch of Christians all week, every week looking at a beautiful 200k stained glass window!
We Christians are strong in number, here's an idea... Lets end homelessness! Come on Tony! Seriously, we have always had homeless people, children, families, right? What if churches team up?, one body? The small church to the mega.
Thank god for shelters and those who run them, though a lot of times families are split between shelters, lack of address or phone or self esteem make job hunting tough.
In my neck of the woods, a million dollar organ can buy a lot of homes, keep a lot of homes from going into forclosure, together with transition programs no family would have to sleep under a bridge.
I could go on and on though I hope I haven't. Bottom line, I believe we Christ followers are missing opportunities.
Servant John
Member
I was saved in a "mega" church and though the building was very large (almost like a small community college), I wouldn't say it was excessive or wasteful. If you have 10,000+ people attending on any given weekend you need lots of space for the people and all the ministry activities that go along with it.
Just because something is large and expensive doesn't mean it's wasteful or a foolish use of money for the Lord.
Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 26:7-10: a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. "This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor." Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
When were we given a mandate that things of the Lord have to be cheap or second rate? Many of you here are acting just like the Apostles and Jesus was quick to rebuke them.
I can guarantee those complaining here have many things in their own lives that are considered luxuries that could also be sold and used for the poor. So why are you all living so wastefully? I hope you take the scripture from Matthew 26 to heart before you tell others how to use their resources for the Lord.
S.J.
Just because something is large and expensive doesn't mean it's wasteful or a foolish use of money for the Lord.
Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 26:7-10: a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. "This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor." Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
When were we given a mandate that things of the Lord have to be cheap or second rate? Many of you here are acting just like the Apostles and Jesus was quick to rebuke them.
I can guarantee those complaining here have many things in their own lives that are considered luxuries that could also be sold and used for the poor. So why are you all living so wastefully? I hope you take the scripture from Matthew 26 to heart before you tell others how to use their resources for the Lord.
S.J.
A New Dawn
Member
Not saying that this is the way it is everywhere, but lots of churches get money donated for a specific expenditure, and, legally, that money needs to be used for that specific expenditure. I am not sure how you are defining "megachurch", but I attend a church that routinely has over 1000 attendees, which is down from about 1500 a couple of years ago. Because of the hard times that are facing us, we had to let 3 significant staff members go (2 pastors and the church's executive officer), however, sanctuary work and land purchases continued on schedule. The reason for this is because of what the donations were designated for.
However, on the whole, I agree with you. If one is talking about a significant amount of money (in our case, it wasn't significant), the leaders should be able to go before the congregation (or approach those who donated the money, somehow) and ask that the funds be made available for other purposes.
S
sherri2
Guest
I've said a lot about mega churchs over the years, and even on here, though I think my last post was wiped with my account in some of the new format teething problems,
but just to add another angle -
I don't like it when a beautiful building becomes the ring that forms the setting that you sit in as a christian leader. It's dangerous.
but just to add another angle -
I don't like it when a beautiful building becomes the ring that forms the setting that you sit in as a christian leader. It's dangerous.
I could or should have chose a better title, nothing wrong with a church of 10,000 at all. A beautiful thing really. It's the 25k fountain out front, and the 200k stained glass window, the million dollar organ, etc.
Here's my translation: Aware*of this, Jesus said to them, "We've been on the road spreading the good word for almost 3 yrs. now! Seriously? You still are missing the point? have i not said these things over and over again? The big picture? I'm just around the corner from being put to death and you're worried about this women making me as comfortable as she is able. It's not like she built a $200,000 stained glass window for us to ah.. Just look at."
I joke, sometimes inappropriately, and I don't mean to offend. But IMO I believe with all my heart that most Christians today miss the point of what Jesus wants for us. *
I don't think things of the lord have to be cheap or second rate. Nothing of the lord is second rate.
I do live wastefully. I struggle with this daily.*
I don't tell others how to use their resources for the lord. Jesus does.
Thank you for pointing to matthew, I have always loved reading matthew and it's been a while so now I'll be up late, again.
Here's my translation: Aware*of this, Jesus said to them, "We've been on the road spreading the good word for almost 3 yrs. now! Seriously? You still are missing the point? have i not said these things over and over again? The big picture? I'm just around the corner from being put to death and you're worried about this women making me as comfortable as she is able. It's not like she built a $200,000 stained glass window for us to ah.. Just look at."
I joke, sometimes inappropriately, and I don't mean to offend. But IMO I believe with all my heart that most Christians today miss the point of what Jesus wants for us. *
I don't think things of the lord have to be cheap or second rate. Nothing of the lord is second rate.
I do live wastefully. I struggle with this daily.*
I don't tell others how to use their resources for the lord. Jesus does.
Thank you for pointing to matthew, I have always loved reading matthew and it's been a while so now I'll be up late, again.
In the nineteenth century, Charles Spurgeon pastored a megachurch in London while still in his twenties. How? His sermons were interesting.
It cannot be confirmed, but Spurgeon appears to be the most widely-read Christian preacher in history, and is one of the most widely-read people in history.
It cannot be confirmed, but Spurgeon appears to be the most widely-read Christian preacher in history, and is one of the most widely-read people in history.
Ed the Ned
Member
I don't have a problem with mega churches. I have a problem with pastors that utilize large congregations to prosper their own pockets. They preach a diluted gospel, a non-offensive gospel to up their numbers. They spend a lot of money to "beautify" their buildings. (TBN head office is an example of this). They have put their own agenda's in front of God.
stovebolts
Member
I think there are pro's and cons to both big and small churches.
That being said, one of my favorite mega churches is Mars Hill located in Grand Rapids. Basically, they were given a strip mall and had to purchse the parking lot. They took the inside of the mall and gutted it, painted the ceiling joists black, set up a stage in the center, surrounded it with a bunch of chairs and wha la, a place to worship.
They also took the smaller stores and converted them into classrooms.
No whistles and bells at that place at all and while one could get lost in a crowd of over 10,000 that attend there each week, the other side of the coin is that it doesn't matter what your spirtitual gift is, you can join others with the same spiritual gift. As well, it doesn't matter what you're going through, there is a group that you can hook up with for support.
We all have to admit that no church is perfect and every church has it's own set of issues. So I've got to ask what the difference between purchasing a 20,000 stained glass window with a 3 million dollar budget or spending 3,000 on a sound system with a 50,000 budget when one considers that 3,000 could buy food for some starving child just like 20,000 could buy food for starving kids. What I want to look at here is income to expenditures. After all, it's not about how much you have, but what you do with what you've been blessed with IMO
That being said, one of my favorite mega churches is Mars Hill located in Grand Rapids. Basically, they were given a strip mall and had to purchse the parking lot. They took the inside of the mall and gutted it, painted the ceiling joists black, set up a stage in the center, surrounded it with a bunch of chairs and wha la, a place to worship.
They also took the smaller stores and converted them into classrooms.
No whistles and bells at that place at all and while one could get lost in a crowd of over 10,000 that attend there each week, the other side of the coin is that it doesn't matter what your spirtitual gift is, you can join others with the same spiritual gift. As well, it doesn't matter what you're going through, there is a group that you can hook up with for support.
We all have to admit that no church is perfect and every church has it's own set of issues. So I've got to ask what the difference between purchasing a 20,000 stained glass window with a 3 million dollar budget or spending 3,000 on a sound system with a 50,000 budget when one considers that 3,000 could buy food for some starving child just like 20,000 could buy food for starving kids. What I want to look at here is income to expenditures. After all, it's not about how much you have, but what you do with what you've been blessed with IMO
Mike
Member
Jeff, have you read the book "Velvet Elvis" by Rob Bell. Sounds like you have. While it was interesting to hear how he went from the store space to Mars Hill, his emergent church mentality made me wince several times. I could go into detail on a few outrageous things he said, but I don't want to steer this off topic too much. I'm in a small Bible study group, and we've done his Nooma video series. It's clear that he has a very captivating style, which is likely a big part of the reason his ministry grew so much.
A pastor's delivery shouldn't be the reason a congregation takes flight. It should be the solid Word that is spoken and convicting a vibrant community. As I said, if some are comfortable with a huge crowd in church and it stimulates their faith, more power to them!
If we didn't have kids and enjoy some of the offerings of a more sizable church, I could be comfortable in a smaller one. In worshiping about 1500 people per week, we have 6 services to choose from ranging from traditional to very cutting edge and non-traditional. But the same Truth is spoken at each.
stovebolts
Member
Hi Mike,
Well, we could start another discussion next week on the various Nooma's that I own and books that Rob Bell has authored including Velvet Elvis as I've read not only that one, but Sex God and God wants to Save Christians.
I know that he's contraversial, but he's not the only preacher at Mars Hill either. Regardless, I enjoy his works, and I enjoy his preface of Velvet Elvis where he states clearly that he doensn't have it "nailed" and he wants people to question what he has to say. While I also may not agree with everything he says, I do appreciate his perspective but mostly, I appreciate his honesty. Seems a rare attribute amonst teachers as they'd rather bypass an issue than admit that they don't have it all figured out. .02
That being said, have you ever downloaded any of his podcasts and actually listened to any of his sermons or any of the sermons from the other two preachers that preach at Mars Hill?
Well, we could start another discussion next week on the various Nooma's that I own and books that Rob Bell has authored including Velvet Elvis as I've read not only that one, but Sex God and God wants to Save Christians.
I know that he's contraversial, but he's not the only preacher at Mars Hill either. Regardless, I enjoy his works, and I enjoy his preface of Velvet Elvis where he states clearly that he doensn't have it "nailed" and he wants people to question what he has to say. While I also may not agree with everything he says, I do appreciate his perspective but mostly, I appreciate his honesty. Seems a rare attribute amonst teachers as they'd rather bypass an issue than admit that they don't have it all figured out. .02
That being said, have you ever downloaded any of his podcasts and actually listened to any of his sermons or any of the sermons from the other two preachers that preach at Mars Hill?
I know you want to look at income to expenditures but to me that doesn't matter one bit if a church is able to do more to help bring the kingdom of heaven on earth.
Mars Hill Grand Rapids, though I've never been (I should it's only a few hours away) I have had friends that have visited. From what I understand, this is the way a megachurch should be. Just like you explained.
I will never understand a 200k window etc.
Side note: *I have downloaded many audio services from the mars hill website, loved them all, really. If you havn't then i recommend you do. Also have read the 3 bell books you mentioned. Some will steer clear I'm sure, controversial or whatever
Mars Hill Grand Rapids, though I've never been (I should it's only a few hours away) I have had friends that have visited. From what I understand, this is the way a megachurch should be. Just like you explained.
I will never understand a 200k window etc.
Side note: *I have downloaded many audio services from the mars hill website, loved them all, really. If you havn't then i recommend you do. Also have read the 3 bell books you mentioned. Some will steer clear I'm sure, controversial or whatever
