C
carey
Guest
Here is an ongoing letter between me and some of my Messianic friends.
What do ya'll think about what we are talking about??
Hey Guys I attended Shabbat a couple weeks ago.
Please help me understand some things.
I am going to send you some corrrespondence I have had with Gordin and some assitional scriptures.
I am truly wanting your understanding and knowlege of transaltion on these scriptures.
Please help me.
Thank you my brother. Please forward this to Neal and Ben so we can all tear these scriptures apart.
I will copy and paste each doc you sent and answer to the best of what I think and believe. ( So Far ) I am still learning.
Let me first say I am beginning to think their is a way to combine some of mainstream Christian teachings as well as Messianic Judaism.
But I believe Yahweh is compelling me to dig for these answers.
You know the reason I am wanting to do business with you is I think we togethr can learn from one another scriptually and originally I saw how in business as we worked together I could make enough to finance a congregation for Yahweh. I have had it on my heart now for about 2 years. And its started about 2 years after my neck injury.
Ok the first doc:....
Yahueh’s Plan A
Yahushua, our first husband died to redeem the "Lost Sheep", AKA "The house of Yisrael", AKA "The House Yoseph", "the Northern Tribes" and also called "Ephraim".
Yahushua married the whole house of Yisrael, all 12 tribes at Mt. Sinai when he gave them his ketubah, the 10 commandments when all the people said "We hear and we will obey". In other words they said “I DO", it was marriage contract. Shemoth (Exodus) 24:3, 7, 8.
Yahushua later divorced the northern tribes for mixed worship, see Yirmeyahu 3:8. This is whole other teaching.
Torah says the husband has to die for the wife to remarry. The wife, in this case, is the above named houses, northern tribes, lost sheep & AKA Ephraim. The Wife is not the individual people; the individual people are the sons and daughters of the wife, named above, and a husband.
Therefor the sons and daughters who were born after Yahushua divorced the above named wife were in fact sons and daughters of pagan deities and the unfaithful wife as named above.
THEREFOR THOSE CHILDREN WERE NOT ELIGIBLE TO BECOME THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE LIVING ELOHIM AND WERE TRULY LOST TO YAHUEH/YAHUSHUA.
When Yahushua died and shed his blood, another requirement for cleansing, it now meant that the wife (the lost sheep) could now be redeemed IF SHE SO RECOGNIZED the fact that she had been redeemed and recognized who it was that redeemed her and then obeyed the many, many times Yahushua called out to them to come back to Torah and obey his Commands and live the original Torah lifestyle in love not rote.
If and when that happens the wife can become the bride of Elohim and the children, us, can then become eligible to be the SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE LIVING ELOHIM, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT only if we become Taught ones, Torah keepers, as Yahushua told us many times and especially when He said in
Matthew 28: 18-20,
"And Yahushua came up and spoke to them, saying “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Therefor, go and make taught ones (Torah Keepers) of all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, Teaching them to guard all that I have commanded you. And see I am with you always, until the end of the age.†Amen.
Shalom my friend.
If you would cross reference all these scriptures into your transaltion I would appreciate it.
I believe that Yashua died for the bride . This interpretation is new to me but makes perfect scriptural sense.
Now Matthew 28 referred to above. I think this is what he was referring to when he was saying make taught ones ( Torah keepers. )
I think he is means the 10 commandments. and to keep the 10 commandments this is how.
Mark 12 : 28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, " Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29" The most important one," answered Jesus, " is this: 'Hear, O Israel , the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."
32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Matthew 22 :
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Romans 7 speaks of the marriage and the writers sinful nature.
Romans 7
An Illustration From Marriage
1Do you not know, brothersâ€â€for I am speaking to men who know the lawâ€â€that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Struggling With Sin
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is , it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is , in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doâ€â€this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 2 makes it plain everyone does not have that nature. God chooses to write Torah on some people hearts who know nothing of the law.
Romasn 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Now if we look at the whole Chapter it seems to be warning us not to judge others as much as explain that some can keep Torah by nature .
( I dont have your translation of the scriptures but if you could cross reference what I copy and pasted here from the NIV I would appreciate it.
Acts 15 : 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
Acts 21 : 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
Now agree with everything in you next letter except what Torah is .The scriptures I have already posted seem to describe keeping Torah for non Yisraelites as different.
And it does plainly say a person who does not have Torah can by Nature keep it.
Romans 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
So I am still at my conclusion that Torah must be the ten commandments plus these.
Matthew 5 : 21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Acts 15 : 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.
Matthew 22 :
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Mark 12 :
29" The most important one," answered Jesus, " is this: 'Hear, O Israel , the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."
Exodus 31 : 12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. [a]
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "
18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
( If a man keeps every day Holy he will keep the sabbath Holy ) Now if all these rules apply to Holy then there is a problem with Romans Chapter 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
So I conclude keeping Shabbat does not include these things just like stoning someone is no longer part of it for breaking these rules on Shabbat.
Exodus 20
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Now a copy of my previuos letter. ( edited )
Yes this man ( the gentile spoken of in Romans 2 could have instinctively kept all Torah if Torah is only the Ten commandments. But this is only speculation and a possible misinterpretation on my part.
1 st. Commandment :This gentile could have insinctively known that the Creator Yahweh was the creator of everything and there could be only one creator. He would have just not known his name.
2nd commandment : This man could have just had enough common sense not to create a graven image of his won making and think it would or could help him to pray to it.
3 : It would have been impossible for someone who never heard Yahweh's name to take in vain.
4 : It would be impossible to remember the Sabbath ( Shabbat )
( note : also in Exodus 31 : 12 )
but if a person kept everyday Holy obviously they would have kept the Shabbat 7th day Holy.
5. A person could be of any religion or even atheist and honor their father and mother .
6. Everyone instinctively knows not to murder.
7. Everyone should know it is wrong to cheat and God couldd easily put this on his heart not to do this.
8. Stealing same as last 2
9 . Lie? same as last 3
10 . wanting your neighboors stuff rather than being happy for your neighboor same as last 4.
Acts 15 : 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
( as i said about the 2nd commandment the man without the law could have enough common sense to know Idols are stupid , meat makes him feel bad, and as I said about adultery.... sexual immorality like homsexuality, beastiality, and multiple partners (adaltery/fornication) should natural repulse him. It would for sure if God wrote it on his heart.
So in conclusion the 10 commndments ( plus these others )a man can instinctively keep just as Romans 2 says.
So it must be in our understanding of the definition of Torah that creates the apparent contradiction between Matthew 5 and Romans 2. We know there are nooooooo contradictions in the written word of Yahweh.
So the study continues Praise Yahweh for all this fun!!
Shalom and may Yahweh bless you with his best.
Carey
Shalom Carey,
Some additional understanding which I have attached in Word.
Please let me know your thoughts
Shalom, Nachshon
Shalom and thanks my friend I will check it out .
I have thought, prayed and studies more on what we were talking about.
Here is a recap and where I am at the moment.
We know heaven and earth have not disappeared yet. soo..
Matthew 5 : 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the ( Torah ) Law until everything is accomplished.
Yeshua says here that nothing has changed in Torah ( law ) since we know Ueshua does not lie. We also know the scriptures cannot contradict themselves.
How could gentiles by Nature keep (Torah ) Law?? Without ever knowing about the sabbath , Yahweh and Yeshuas name ??? Ir would actuallly be impossible to by nature keep the 1st 3rd and 4th ( Torah ) commandments without knowing them.
So Jesus in Matthew 5 : 18 could not have been speakking of 1st, 3rd, and 4th commandments as being ( unchanged Torah ) if Our understanding of the definition of Torah in correct. or the translations are correct. In Matthew and Romans.
Romans 2 : 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the ( Torah ) law, do by nature things required by the ( Torah ) law, they are a ( Torah ) law for themselves, even though they do not have the ( Torah ) law, 15since they show that the requirements of the ( Torah )law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
This we have decided either our definition of Torah ( law ) or translation in these scriptures is incorrect. Much more study is obviously needed here so I am off. to study,
But now after more study and thought and prayer I have concluded this.
Yes this man ( the gentile spoken of in Romans 2 could have instinctively kept all Torah if Torah is only the Ten commandments. But this is only speculation and a possible misinterpretation on my part.
1 st. Commandment :This gentile could have insinctively known that the Creator Yahweh was the creator of everything and there could be only one creator. He would have just not known his name.
2nd commandment : This man could have just had enough common sense not to create a graven image of his won making and think it would or could help him to pray to it.
3 : It would have been impossible for someone who hever heard Yahweh's name to take in vain.
4 : It would be impossible to remeber the Sabbath but
if a person kept everyday Holy obviously they would have kept the Sannath 7th day Holy.
5. A person could be of any religion or even atheist and honor their father and mother .
6. Everyone instinctively knows not to murder.
7. Everyone should know it is wrong to cheat and God couldd easily put this on his heart not to do this.
8. Stealing same as last 2
9 . Lie? same as last 3
10 . wanting your neighboors stuff rather than being happy for your neighboor same as last 4.
So in conclusion the 10 commndments ( and these others )a man can instinctively keep just as Romans 2 says. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
So it must be in our understanding of the definition of Torah that creates the apparent contradiction between Matthew 5 and Romans 2. We know there are nooooooo contradictions in the written word of Yahweh.
So the study continues Praise Yahweh for all this fun!!
Shalom and may Yahweh bless you with his best.
Carey
Carey, Shalom
This web site is the site of a very knowledgeable friend of mine.
http://www.geocities.com/torahway
I know that when you read her insight into the truth you will better
understand Yahueh's "PLAN A", there is no plan B or C or so forth. He spoke
his truth and that truth is Yahushua and is all the truths of the Torah,
made flesh, and he came and lived among his creation.
Shalom, Nachshon, AKA Gordon
Now I am thinking Shabbat services are covered under the same theme that we must live every day "holy" or by the law so Shabbat would obviously fall in there as well because of what it says here in
Galations 4 : 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!
Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
What do ya'll think about what we are talking about??
Hey Guys I attended Shabbat a couple weeks ago.
Please help me understand some things.
I am going to send you some corrrespondence I have had with Gordin and some assitional scriptures.
I am truly wanting your understanding and knowlege of transaltion on these scriptures.
Please help me.
Thank you my brother. Please forward this to Neal and Ben so we can all tear these scriptures apart.
I will copy and paste each doc you sent and answer to the best of what I think and believe. ( So Far ) I am still learning.
Let me first say I am beginning to think their is a way to combine some of mainstream Christian teachings as well as Messianic Judaism.
But I believe Yahweh is compelling me to dig for these answers.
You know the reason I am wanting to do business with you is I think we togethr can learn from one another scriptually and originally I saw how in business as we worked together I could make enough to finance a congregation for Yahweh. I have had it on my heart now for about 2 years. And its started about 2 years after my neck injury.
Ok the first doc:....
Yahueh’s Plan A
Yahushua, our first husband died to redeem the "Lost Sheep", AKA "The house of Yisrael", AKA "The House Yoseph", "the Northern Tribes" and also called "Ephraim".
Yahushua married the whole house of Yisrael, all 12 tribes at Mt. Sinai when he gave them his ketubah, the 10 commandments when all the people said "We hear and we will obey". In other words they said “I DO", it was marriage contract. Shemoth (Exodus) 24:3, 7, 8.
Yahushua later divorced the northern tribes for mixed worship, see Yirmeyahu 3:8. This is whole other teaching.
Torah says the husband has to die for the wife to remarry. The wife, in this case, is the above named houses, northern tribes, lost sheep & AKA Ephraim. The Wife is not the individual people; the individual people are the sons and daughters of the wife, named above, and a husband.
Therefor the sons and daughters who were born after Yahushua divorced the above named wife were in fact sons and daughters of pagan deities and the unfaithful wife as named above.
THEREFOR THOSE CHILDREN WERE NOT ELIGIBLE TO BECOME THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE LIVING ELOHIM AND WERE TRULY LOST TO YAHUEH/YAHUSHUA.
When Yahushua died and shed his blood, another requirement for cleansing, it now meant that the wife (the lost sheep) could now be redeemed IF SHE SO RECOGNIZED the fact that she had been redeemed and recognized who it was that redeemed her and then obeyed the many, many times Yahushua called out to them to come back to Torah and obey his Commands and live the original Torah lifestyle in love not rote.
If and when that happens the wife can become the bride of Elohim and the children, us, can then become eligible to be the SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE LIVING ELOHIM, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT only if we become Taught ones, Torah keepers, as Yahushua told us many times and especially when He said in
Matthew 28: 18-20,
"And Yahushua came up and spoke to them, saying “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Therefor, go and make taught ones (Torah Keepers) of all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, Teaching them to guard all that I have commanded you. And see I am with you always, until the end of the age.†Amen.
Shalom my friend.
If you would cross reference all these scriptures into your transaltion I would appreciate it.
I believe that Yashua died for the bride . This interpretation is new to me but makes perfect scriptural sense.
Now Matthew 28 referred to above. I think this is what he was referring to when he was saying make taught ones ( Torah keepers. )
I think he is means the 10 commandments. and to keep the 10 commandments this is how.
Mark 12 : 28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, " Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29" The most important one," answered Jesus, " is this: 'Hear, O Israel , the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."
32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Matthew 22 :
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Romans 7 speaks of the marriage and the writers sinful nature.
Romans 7
An Illustration From Marriage
1Do you not know, brothersâ€â€for I am speaking to men who know the lawâ€â€that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Struggling With Sin
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is , it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is , in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to doâ€â€this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 2 makes it plain everyone does not have that nature. God chooses to write Torah on some people hearts who know nothing of the law.
Romasn 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Now if we look at the whole Chapter it seems to be warning us not to judge others as much as explain that some can keep Torah by nature .
( I dont have your translation of the scriptures but if you could cross reference what I copy and pasted here from the NIV I would appreciate it.
Acts 15 : 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
Acts 21 : 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
Now agree with everything in you next letter except what Torah is .The scriptures I have already posted seem to describe keeping Torah for non Yisraelites as different.
And it does plainly say a person who does not have Torah can by Nature keep it.
Romans 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
So I am still at my conclusion that Torah must be the ten commandments plus these.
Matthew 5 : 21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Acts 15 : 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.
Matthew 22 :
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Mark 12 :
29" The most important one," answered Jesus, " is this: 'Hear, O Israel , the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."
Exodus 31 : 12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. [a]
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "
18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
( If a man keeps every day Holy he will keep the sabbath Holy ) Now if all these rules apply to Holy then there is a problem with Romans Chapter 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
So I conclude keeping Shabbat does not include these things just like stoning someone is no longer part of it for breaking these rules on Shabbat.
Exodus 20
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Now a copy of my previuos letter. ( edited )
Yes this man ( the gentile spoken of in Romans 2 could have instinctively kept all Torah if Torah is only the Ten commandments. But this is only speculation and a possible misinterpretation on my part.
1 st. Commandment :This gentile could have insinctively known that the Creator Yahweh was the creator of everything and there could be only one creator. He would have just not known his name.
2nd commandment : This man could have just had enough common sense not to create a graven image of his won making and think it would or could help him to pray to it.
3 : It would have been impossible for someone who never heard Yahweh's name to take in vain.
4 : It would be impossible to remember the Sabbath ( Shabbat )
( note : also in Exodus 31 : 12 )
but if a person kept everyday Holy obviously they would have kept the Shabbat 7th day Holy.
5. A person could be of any religion or even atheist and honor their father and mother .
6. Everyone instinctively knows not to murder.
7. Everyone should know it is wrong to cheat and God couldd easily put this on his heart not to do this.
8. Stealing same as last 2
9 . Lie? same as last 3
10 . wanting your neighboors stuff rather than being happy for your neighboor same as last 4.
Acts 15 : 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
( as i said about the 2nd commandment the man without the law could have enough common sense to know Idols are stupid , meat makes him feel bad, and as I said about adultery.... sexual immorality like homsexuality, beastiality, and multiple partners (adaltery/fornication) should natural repulse him. It would for sure if God wrote it on his heart.
So in conclusion the 10 commndments ( plus these others )a man can instinctively keep just as Romans 2 says.
So it must be in our understanding of the definition of Torah that creates the apparent contradiction between Matthew 5 and Romans 2. We know there are nooooooo contradictions in the written word of Yahweh.
So the study continues Praise Yahweh for all this fun!!
Shalom and may Yahweh bless you with his best.
Carey
Shalom Carey,
Some additional understanding which I have attached in Word.
Please let me know your thoughts
Shalom, Nachshon
Shalom and thanks my friend I will check it out .
I have thought, prayed and studies more on what we were talking about.
Here is a recap and where I am at the moment.
We know heaven and earth have not disappeared yet. soo..
Matthew 5 : 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the ( Torah ) Law until everything is accomplished.
Yeshua says here that nothing has changed in Torah ( law ) since we know Ueshua does not lie. We also know the scriptures cannot contradict themselves.
How could gentiles by Nature keep (Torah ) Law?? Without ever knowing about the sabbath , Yahweh and Yeshuas name ??? Ir would actuallly be impossible to by nature keep the 1st 3rd and 4th ( Torah ) commandments without knowing them.
So Jesus in Matthew 5 : 18 could not have been speakking of 1st, 3rd, and 4th commandments as being ( unchanged Torah ) if Our understanding of the definition of Torah in correct. or the translations are correct. In Matthew and Romans.
Romans 2 : 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the ( Torah ) law, do by nature things required by the ( Torah ) law, they are a ( Torah ) law for themselves, even though they do not have the ( Torah ) law, 15since they show that the requirements of the ( Torah )law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
This we have decided either our definition of Torah ( law ) or translation in these scriptures is incorrect. Much more study is obviously needed here so I am off. to study,
But now after more study and thought and prayer I have concluded this.
Yes this man ( the gentile spoken of in Romans 2 could have instinctively kept all Torah if Torah is only the Ten commandments. But this is only speculation and a possible misinterpretation on my part.
1 st. Commandment :This gentile could have insinctively known that the Creator Yahweh was the creator of everything and there could be only one creator. He would have just not known his name.
2nd commandment : This man could have just had enough common sense not to create a graven image of his won making and think it would or could help him to pray to it.
3 : It would have been impossible for someone who hever heard Yahweh's name to take in vain.
4 : It would be impossible to remeber the Sabbath but
if a person kept everyday Holy obviously they would have kept the Sannath 7th day Holy.
5. A person could be of any religion or even atheist and honor their father and mother .
6. Everyone instinctively knows not to murder.
7. Everyone should know it is wrong to cheat and God couldd easily put this on his heart not to do this.
8. Stealing same as last 2
9 . Lie? same as last 3
10 . wanting your neighboors stuff rather than being happy for your neighboor same as last 4.
So in conclusion the 10 commndments ( and these others )a man can instinctively keep just as Romans 2 says. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
So it must be in our understanding of the definition of Torah that creates the apparent contradiction between Matthew 5 and Romans 2. We know there are nooooooo contradictions in the written word of Yahweh.
So the study continues Praise Yahweh for all this fun!!
Shalom and may Yahweh bless you with his best.
Carey
Carey, Shalom
This web site is the site of a very knowledgeable friend of mine.
http://www.geocities.com/torahway
I know that when you read her insight into the truth you will better
understand Yahueh's "PLAN A", there is no plan B or C or so forth. He spoke
his truth and that truth is Yahushua and is all the truths of the Torah,
made flesh, and he came and lived among his creation.
Shalom, Nachshon, AKA Gordon
Now I am thinking Shabbat services are covered under the same theme that we must live every day "holy" or by the law so Shabbat would obviously fall in there as well because of what it says here in
Galations 4 : 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!
Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.