mormonism

[Hitch]

Free,
So where do you get the authority to be the one who gets to decide for the rest of the world which biblical interpretation of Jesus is the one and only true one? Mormons believe just as confidently as you do that their biblical interpretation of Jesus is the correct one. There are many “Christian†religions who use the same Bible as you, who disagree with the Trinitarian tradition. What unique claim to God’s authority do you have that all the others don’t, in saying your understanding of Jesus is the only correct one?

The second Nephite stopped by and told me.

 

[Free]

Free,
So where do you get the authority to be the one who gets to decide for the rest of the world which biblical interpretation of Jesus is the one and only true one?

I'm not deciding for the rest of the world. My own studies show that my beliefs about Christ happen to be in agreement with what Christians have long believed and are in strong disagreement with what a supposed 19th century prophet believed about Christ.

Mormons believe just as confidently as you do that their biblical interpretation of Jesus is the correct one.

Confidence does not equate to truth. It's very interesting that your argument implies that the Mormon Christ is, in fact, different that the one historically held by Christianity. That has long been an argument used by Christians against Mormonism and a claim that Mormons usually quickly deny.

There are many “Christian†religions who use the same Bible as you, who disagree with the Trinitarian tradition. What unique claim to God’s authority do you have that all the others don’t, in saying your understanding of Jesus is the only correct one?

I am not going to get into other traditions save that to deny the true deity of Christ is to deny Christ and beg the question of whether those who believe such are actually Christian. As it pertains to Mormonism, I have 1900 years or so of Christian history on my side, something which Mormonism cannot claim.

 

[Webb]

PROVEALLTHINGS from your post # 52 you stated: ''THE TERM CHRISTIAN IS NOT SOMETHING WE REVEIVED FROM GOD, BUT FROM THOSE WHO WERE UNBELIEVERS---THE BIBLICAL TERM FOR THOSE WHO WERE MEMBERS OF THE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS 'SAINTS' ".

Besides saints, we also have in scripture "disciples" and "brethren", thus these are Biblical terms as well. Personally, I like "saints".

I can find in the NT the church being referred to as the "sect everywhere spoken against", but I can't find in the Bible that the name Christian was given by unbelievers, one must go secular for that.

I do believe the name Christian was divinely given.

 

[Hitch]

PROVEALLTHINGS from your post # 52 you stated: ''THE TERM CHRISTIAN IS NOT SOMETHING WE REVEIVED FROM GOD, BUT FROM THOSE WHO WERE UNBELIEVERS---THE BIBLICAL TERM FOR THOSE WHO WERE MEMBERS OF THE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST IS 'SAINTS' ".

Besides saints, we also have in scripture "disciples" and "brethren", thus these are Biblical terms as well. Personally, I like "saints".

I can find in the NT the church being referred to as the "sect everywhere spoken against", but I can't find in the Bible that the name Christian was given by unbelievers, one must go secular for that.

I do believe the name Christian was divinely given.

Nahh it was engraved on a silver plate

 

[proveallthings]

Confidence does not equate to truth. It's very interesting that your argument implies that the Mormon Christ is, in fact, different that the one historically held by Christianity. That has long been an argument used by Christians against Mormonism and a claim that Mormons usually quickly deny.

Mormons have never denied that their beliefs in Christ are different than those described in the creeds of men. What we argue is that many of the differences other Christians try and point out are not differences at all. The differences have been distorted and exaggerated by those who feel threatened by our success. Innocent Christians trust those conclusions without doing their own due diligence and we end up with some pretty wild misunderstandings of what Mormons actually believe.

I am not going to get into other traditions save that to deny the true deity of Christ is to deny Christ and beg the question of whether those who believe such are actually Christian. As it pertains to Mormonism, I have 1900 years or so of Christian history on my side, something which Mormonism cannot claim.

Just so you know, I do believe in the deity of Christ. He is Almighty God and the Creator of Heaven and Earth. Just because you don't understand how I can believe this along with other things you think we believe in, doesn't mean it isn't true.

It just so happens that I have a pretty good grasp myself, of the 1900 years of history you are referring to. I could make a very good case that this history only supports the one Lord, one faith and one baptism of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I realize that you feel you could make just the opposite case, but you make the naive assumption that Mormons are illiterate and stupid when it comes to such things. If you are ever to be persuasive to average and more knowledgeable Mormons, you will have to try and at least appear to be a little more objective and respectful. You do that by admitting your own subjectivity and doing the due diligence that true scholarship requires.
Thanks for the discussion.

 

[proveallthings]

I do believe the name Christian was divinely given.

That's nice that this is what you believe. It surprises me, though. I guess I was wrong in assuming you believed the Bible to be the only authority in declaring what is divine.

 

[proveallthings]

Not all of them have supplemented the Bible with extra-Biblical writings claiming to be of divine origin.

You seem to infer that claiming to have extra-Biblical writings of divine origin is evidence of being anti-Biblical. Is this a teaching you have found in the Bible?

 

[Free]

Mormons have never denied that their beliefs in Christ are different than those described in the creeds of men. What we argue is that many of the differences other Christians try and point out are not differences at all. The differences have been distorted and exaggerated by those who feel threatened by our success. Innocent Christians trust those conclusions without doing their own due diligence and we end up with some pretty wild misunderstandings of what Mormons actually believe.

I don't think many, if any, feel threatened by any success. It is a real and serious concern that false teachers and false prophets are deceiving many, many people with a false gospel.

Just so you know, I do believe in the deity of Christ. He is Almighty God and the Creator of Heaven and Earth. Just because you don't understand how I can believe this along with other things you think we believe in, doesn't mean it isn't true.

But yet he is not the Almighty God, the Creator, that is portrayed in Scripture. He is one of Mormon invention. The Creator of the universe has never been a man and has always been the only God that has ever existed.

It just so happens that I have a pretty good grasp myself, of the 1900 years of history you are referring to. I could make a very good case that this history only supports the one Lord, one faith and one baptism of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

No, you can't. I have not seen any Mormon able to do so and based on the significance of the differences, it cannot be done. Just because Mormonism uses the same terminology does not mean that they are saying the same things. This is what is most dangerous about Mormonism--it has taken "Christian language," Christian words, and changed their meaning. In this way they sound like traditional Christianity and hope to be accepted as such, when really they are saying some very different things, very erroneous and sometimes heretical things, such as the teaching that we can become gods, that God has a physical body of flesh and bone, and the belief in polytheism.

I realize that you feel you could make just the opposite case, but you make the naive assumption that Mormons are illiterate and stupid when it comes to such things.

With all due respect to yourself, most Mormons I have engaged are very illiterate when it comes to Scripture. I've even been told that I "am more knowledgeable regarding Scriptures but let's discuss the Book of Mormon." How can those who claim to be Christian know so little about what the Bible actually says?

If you are ever to be persuasive to average and more knowledgeable Mormons, you will have to try and at least appear to be a little more objective and respectful. You do that by admitting your own subjectivity and doing the due diligence that true scholarship requires.
Thanks for the discussion.

And yet you presume that I have not done my due diligence. I will admit that it has been a while since I was heavily involved in regular discussions with Mormons, but I have put much study into it in the past.

 

[Webb]

My conclusion that the name Christian is divinely given is not from any authority of mine nor any man's but that of the scripture.

BTW, I left a private message for you some time ago.

 

[proveallthings]

My conclusion that the name Christian is divinely given is not from any authority of mine nor any man's but that of the scripture.

I find it interesting that you did not include a quote from the Bible where it says that the term Christian was divinely given. Please share it with me, for I am unaware of the existence of such.

BTW, I left a private message for you some time ago.

I discovered why you didn't receive my timely reply to your PM. I didn't notice that my message was rejected because of length. You will now find my reply in three messages.

 

[proveallthings]

I don't think many, if any, feel threatened by any success. It is a real and serious concern that false teachers and false prophets are deceiving many, many people with a false gospel.

This statement is a good example of your lack of due diligence. If you are interested, I would be glad to provide you with several historical and modern irrefutable examples that would back up my statement. And who's to say that the teachers who originated your perspective(as in the writers of the creeds) are not the very false teachers you feel we should all be concerned with? Indeed, if that is so, they certainly have deceived many.

But yet he is not the Almighty God, the Creator, that is portrayed in Scripture. He is one of Mormon invention. The Creator of the universe has never been a man and has always been the only God that has ever existed.

You mean your interpretation of scripture. You cannot find a single official Mormon belief in God that contradicts the Bible. I know you think you can, but I will be able to show in every case that there are other rational ways to interpret the Bible and Mormon doctrine than what you have assumed. From my perspective, I can do much more damage to your doctrine using only the Bible. Again, what gives you the authority to say your interpretation is the only correct one?

No, you can't. I have not seen any Mormon able to do so and based on the significance of the differences, it cannot be done.

Do you realize how arrogant this statement sounds? It is exactly what I would expect to hear from Saul before he became Paul in response to someone like Stephen.

Just because Mormonism uses the same terminology does not mean that they are saying the same things. This is what is most dangerous about Mormonism--it has taken "Christian language," Christian words, and changed their meaning.

I agree that often we assume too much because of the use of the same terms, but don't take care to define our terms, thus causing a lot of misunderstanding. However, it has been my experience that this misunderstanding is more often the cause of assumed differences than assumed similarity.

In this way they sound like traditional Christianity and hope to be accepted as such, when really they are saying some very different things, very erroneous and sometimes heretical things, such as the teaching that we can become gods, that God has a physical body of flesh and bone, and the belief in polytheism.

As I explained earlier, Mormons have no desire to be accepted as part of "traditional Christianity". We believe that what you call such is perverted Christianity with many man made flaws. Your giving equal authority to extra-Biblical creeds as to scripture is an obvious evidence of that. What we do attempt to do is to counter the falsehood that we are not Christian. Saying we are not Christian implies that we do not believe in Jesus Christ, which we most certainly do. Although I may believe that your understanding of Christ differs from the Bible as much as you think mine does, I would vigorously defend you against anyone who claimed you are not a Christian. Should I not expect the same from others who claim to be Christian?

In reference to the heretical things you refer to here, I can clearly show that none of our beliefs about God contradict in any way what is in the Bible.

With all due respect to yourself, most Mormons I have engaged are very illiterate when it comes to Scripture. I've even been told that I "am more knowledgeable regarding Scriptures but let's discuss the Book of Mormon." How can those who claim to be Christian know so little about what the Bible actually says?

Without knowing the context of your experiences Mormons referred to here, I would have to say that your experience in discussing the gospel with Mormons is very shallow indeed. Although I would love to discuss the Book of Mormon anytime with a non-Mormon, I also relish Bible discussion with any non-LDS Christian. I know many other Mormons who feel the same way. I admit that there have been non-LDS Christians I have met that can quote chapter and verse better than I, but by far, the majority of them have been less knowledgeable than I, and I do not consider myself a scriptorian by Mormon standards.

And yet you presume that I have not done my due diligence. I will admit that it has been a while since I was heavily involved in regular discussions with Mormons, but I have put much study into it in the past.

If I were planning on making public statements challenging the beliefs of the Presbyterians, claiming they were using deceptive practices and false representations, I would not be satisfied with talking with a few lay Presbyterians who admitted I was more knowledgeable than they were on what was in the Bible. Nor would I spend much time studying what was written against them. That, to me, is not due diligence. I would seek out their scholars and authorities. I would ask questions until I understood what they believed and why, as well as they did. To me, such due diligence and nothing less, is required to avoid violating the 9th commandment.

Respectfully,
Alan

 

[Hitch]

Mormons have never denied that their beliefs in Christ are different than those described in the creeds of men. What we argue is that many of the differences other Christians try and point out are not differences at all. The differences have been distorted and exaggerated by those who feel threatened by our success. Innocent Christians trust those conclusions without doing their own due diligence and we end up with some pretty wild misunderstandings of what Mormons actually believe.

Now there's whopper on par with anything Joey himself made up

 

[Hitch]

As I explained earlier, Mormons have no desire to be accepted as part of "traditional Christianity". We believe that what you call such is perverted Christianity with many man made flaws. Your giving equal authority to extra-Biblical creeds as to scripture is an obvious evidence of that. What we do attempt to do is to counter the falsehood that we are not Christian. Saying we are not Christian implies that we do not believe in Jesus Christ, which we most certainly do. Although I may believe that your understanding of Christ differs from the Bible as much as you think mine does, I would vigorously defend you against anyone who claimed you are not a Christian. Should I not expect the same from others who claim to be Christian?

Why would you defend an avowed member of an abominable sect?Keep trying to portray your cult as christian, add all the coals to the fire you can. You might even still be able to fool some one once in a while.

 

[Free]

This statement is a good example of your lack of due diligence.

On the contrary, it is because of my due diligence that I make that statement.

You mean your interpretation of scripture.

The interpretation of Scripture as has been held by the Church for 2000 years.

You cannot find a single official Mormon belief in God that contradicts the Bible.

I can find several and I've listed some already.

I know you think you can, but I will be able to show in every case that there are other rational ways to interpret the Bible and Mormon doctrine than what you have assumed.

I have yet to see any rational way to interpret Scripture the way Mormonism does.

From my perspective, I can do much more damage to your doctrine using only the Bible. Again, what gives you the authority to say your interpretation is the only correct one?

Again, 2000 years of Christian history.

Do you realize how arrogant this statement sounds? It is exactly what I would expect to hear from Saul before he became Paul in response to someone like Stephen.

Is it any more arrogant than: "You cannot find a single official Mormon belief in God that contradicts the Bible," "From my perspective, I can do much more damage to your doctrine using only the Bible" and "We believe that what you call such is perverted Christianity with many man made flaws"?

I agree that often we assume too much because of the use of the same terms, but don't take care to define our terms, thus causing a lot of misunderstanding. However, it has been my experience that this misunderstanding is more often the cause of assumed differences than assumed similarity.

The differences are not only based on my studies but on my many discussions with Mormons.

As I explained earlier, Mormons have no desire to be accepted as part of "traditional Christianity".

Let me put it another way: They have a desire to be accepted as mainstream Christianity, as the "true" Christianity. And I do not believe this was always the case.

We believe that what you call such is perverted Christianity with many man made flaws. Your giving equal authority to extra-Biblical creeds as to scripture is an obvious evidence of that.

And yet you put equal, and even greater authority on the Book of Mormon. What about Doctrine and Covenants or The Pearl of Great Price? Whereas Creeds are simply concise summations of Scripture of essential Christian doctrine, designed for easy memorization, the added books of Mormonism introduce significant theological and historical error and distort what the Bible says. And this hundreds of years after the fact.

What we do attempt to do is to counter the falsehood that we are not Christian. Saying we are not Christian implies that we do not believe in Jesus Christ, which we most certainly do. Although I may believe that your understanding of Christ differs from the Bible as much as you think mine does, I would vigorously defend you against anyone who claimed you are not a Christian. Should I not expect the same from others who claim to be Christian?

No, you should not. Who Christ is is absolutely central to Christianity and salvation. We cannot simply say that anyone who "believes in Jesus" or "is a follower of Jesus" is a Christian. In that case we must accept also JWs as Christians and a case could be made for Islam or any number of other religious sects. But this clearly cannot be the case as who Christ is differs greatly from sect to sect, from religion to religion. Merely claiming to be a Christian does not make one a Christian.

You know as well as I that Mormons do not believe that followers of traditional Christianity will be saved, apart from converting to Mormonism, so it makes no sense to even think that we are Christians.

In reference to the heretical things you refer to here, I can clearly show that none of our beliefs about God contradict in any way what is in the Bible.

I don't know how you can show any of those to not contradict the Bible since they clearly do, although I suppose you could try.

If I were planning on making public statements challenging the beliefs of the Presbyterians, claiming they were using deceptive practices and false representations, I would not be satisfied with talking with a few lay Presbyterians who admitted I was more knowledgeable than they were on what was in the Bible. Nor would I spend much time studying what was written against them. That, to me, is not due diligence. I would seek out their scholars and authorities. I would ask questions until I understood what they believed and why, as well as they did. To me, such due diligence and nothing less, is required to avoid violating the 9th commandment.

And why do you assume that I haven't? I have the BoM, hardcopy and several softcopies in PDF, including the 1830 edition. I also have softcopies of Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price, as well as many other official LDS resources. Do not think I come into this so lightly.

 

[Comprehender]

The Mormon church goes by the name, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."
They claim to have Jesus as their church's foundation.
Yet, they exploit members financially & in other ways, hide finances & rob from the poor.
In reality, the Mormon church is a series of Corporations, not a church of Jesus Christ. Jesus taught that the greatest commandments are to love God & to love others as ourselves... "on these 2 commandments hang all the laws and the prophets." Jesus also taught the parable of the good Samaritan & to "go and do likewise" in loving our neighbors. There has never before in history been so many in fatal need - almost 1 Billion men women & children are starving, tens of thousands died today of starvation.

They recently added another corp to their list - a $5,000,000,000 shopping mall.
If Jesus were alive today, I can't see him doing something like that.
If you ask believing members about it, they will say as they are trained from babies to say: "I trust in our leaders, who will not lead us astray."
They believe that it is impossible for these dishonest con-business men disguised as prophets, to lead the church wrong & that God would have them removed before that happened.

I was raised with this cult & now see it for what it is & I hope & pray members & others will too. Yes, there are good aspects of Mormonism - like high standards & service opportunities. But there are very evil aspects of Mormonism too - like financial exploitation & dishonesty, & mental illness (Utah, largely influenced by Mormonism, leads the nation in anti-depressants - twice the national average).

 

[Webb]

Hi Proveallthings--You wrote to me (#70): ''I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT YOU DID NOT INCLUDE A QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS THAT THE TERM CHRISTIAN WAS DIVINELY GIVEN. PLEASE SHARE IT WITH ME, FOR I AM UNAWARE OF THE EXISTENCE OF SUCH.''

How about I Peter 4:16 for a starter?

 

[proveallthings]

I have yet to see any rational way to interpret Scripture the way Mormonism does.

I guess this conversation is getting kind of silly. Why don't we just test our claims right here and now. You give me a common Mormon teaching that you believe to be in conflict with the Bible and I will attempt to show you how it does not conflict. Does that sound fair enough?

 

[proveallthings]

Hi Proveallthings--You wrote to me (#70): ''I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT YOU DID NOT INCLUDE A QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS THAT THE TERM CHRISTIAN WAS DIVINELY GIVEN. PLEASE SHARE IT WITH ME, FOR I AM UNAWARE OF THE EXISTENCE OF SUCH.''

How about I Peter 4:16 for a starter?

Just because Peter accepts some of the common nomenclature of the society in general for his religion, does not mean the term was divinely given. The term Christian is a descriptive and accurate term and even complimentary, so there was no reason for Peter to avoid using it. You still have not shown where scripture teaches that the term Christian was a divinely given name for Christ's true followers.

 

[Free]

I guess this conversation is getting kind of silly. Why don't we just test our claims right here and now. You give me a common Mormon teaching that you believe to be in conflict with the Bible and I will attempt to show you how it does not conflict. Does that sound fair enough?

Sure, let's try one and see how it goes. Mormonism teaches that there is a plurality of gods, which the Bible clearly rejects.

 

[proveallthings]

Sure, let's try one and see how it goes. Mormonism teaches that there is a plurality of gods, which the Bible clearly rejects.

Free,
Sorry for the delayed response. It has been a busy week. Here is my reply:

Mormons and most Bible believing Christians agree that Jesus Christ’s Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost is God. We also agree that there is one true God. On the surface, it seems to be a contradiction to say that three persons are God, but there is only one God. The controversial theological battle of how to explain this apparent paradox was a large part of why the council of Nicea was called in the first place. The problem of explaining how there can be a plurality of Gods and at the same time be only one God, is a discussion that goes back to the second century of the Christian era. The doctrine of the Trinity is only one of the explanations that have come out of this discussion. The only reason it is so universally accepted is because at its inception the church and the state became one and every opposing idea was illegal to teach or discuss. Opposing writings were sought out and destroyed. This condition existed for several centuries until the time of the reformation.

The plurality of Gods and gods is taught in several places in the Bible. In Gen. 3:22 it says, “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil...â€. Us means plural. Psalm 110:1 says “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstoolâ€. And, of course, all the scriptures in the New Testament that identify the three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Paul even says in I Corinthians 8:5, that there are many gods and lords in Heaven.

The way Mormons explain how the members of the Godhead are separate at the same time as being one is different than Trinitarians. We believe they are each a God, but are still part of the one and only God. The one God is the one way, the one perfect plan for us his children, the one straight gate and narrow way, the one true way to worship. Whenever the prophets of the Bible emphasize the idea of one God, it is to prevent the people from worshiping false or competing gods. Mormons do not worship or teach obedience to false gods that involve a different gospel from the God of the Bible. We believe in only in the gospel Jesus and his prophets and apostles taught.

To my knowledge, the only place in the Bible that teaches us how the Father and the Son are one is John chapter 17. No less than three times Jesus asks the Father to help his disciples to become one as they are one. He even prays that they will become one with them. If you believe that the Father and the Son are one substance as the creeds teach(and which is not found anywhere in the Bible) then Jesus is asking for his disciples to become part of that same substance. Mormons don’t believe that. They believe that the only way the Father and the Son are one is in purpose and desire, for that is the only way that is described in the Bible. The idea of them being one substance is an invention of man.

If the apostles can become one with the Father and the Son, then why not any human? And if that is possible and even encouraged and desired by God, why would it not be appropriate to call that state of oneness, godhood?