[__ Prayer __] My Fiancé is Struggling with God

[SeaofGlass221]

“I would suggest a different kind of prayer. Instead of him demanding God perform so he has an experience (crudely put, I know) that he ask God to show him his heart as He sees it. Assume God is there and ask Him, not to reveal himself to him, but ask God to reveal your fiancé to your fiancé.”

I love this wording!!! Especially that last line I quoted there. Thank you Dorothy - I missed this before I have said this to him - but not so succinctly (I have adhd so my mind can be all over the place, especially if I’m overstimulated or excited )

 

[Dorothy Mae]

He’s definitely spoken to me.


I feel like you misinterpreted my use of language. He wants a relationship with God. Like you said in your post - he “has heard it all from men and wants interaction with God.” That was well put. He simply hasn’t had one yet (that he’s aware of - I told him once he does he will probably realize many ways God was working in his life..) and I think anyone that’s had a genuine experience should know how it felt before vs. how it felt after…before = dead

Yes I certainly can be misunderstanding you. A relationship with God is not built upon experience. It’s built upon confession of sins and receiving forgiveness. That’s something you do, not experience. He needs to start there and drop all hope of experiencing something. I have heard testimonies of healings and they commonly felt this warm. I’ve asked God to heal hoping for this warm feeling experience and felt nothing at all. But I was healed. When I received the Holy Spirit baptism, I felt nothing either but it was nevertheless real because my heart or attitude completely changed.

I was NOT actively seeking God when I was born again. But I DID respond/surrender to His presence in that moment. I talk about this in my new member post so I won’t dive into it here.

That’s exactly what is necessary, surrender with no strings like requiring an experience. When I was saved I wept and wept over my sin.

Obviously I didn’t mean he knows “all” about God. Just trying to communicate he is very educated about scripture - and history - and even still lets me share my excitement and joy regarding God and my relationship with Him EVEN though it makes him sad he has not been born again. He loves me and is happy I’m happy.

I’m very blessed to hear of this. That’s really sweet to hear.

No one knows “all about” God - but I didn’t think my words would be taken that literally - but again it’s been years since I’ve participated in a forum like this so sorry for any misunderstanding.

I thought it was he thought about his knowledge. My mistake.

Like I mentioned above - he genuinely wishes for a relationship with God. But refuses to be dishonest about having one anymore despite family and even his previous work with the church. The only reason I said “experience” is because that’s literally what has to happen in a moment of time when you meet God and are changed, and being “born again” only happens one time. Hence, an experience.

It’s not everyone’s experience. Maybe that’s a difficulty. I cannot say that I was changed. I was a child. Jesus told different people different things. Some people change slowly over time. I’ve known some who never had that experience and are devoted followers with a vital relationship with God. We ought not measure our experiences by others.’

And yes I have informed him if he’s seeking an experience or some feeling from God that’s not what we should seek, but Him. He knows. Trust me - I’ve told him all the things. But because I know from my own “moment” it is NOT something we can conjure up ourselves, but a gift of God, I continue to pray, speak Truth to him and seek to love him more visibly daily as God helps me through my own life and shows me how to better love him and others.

Super! That’s perfect.

Thank you for your thoughtful response and your prayers.

An honor and privilege!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I love this wording!!! Especially that last line I quoted there. Thank you Dorothy - I missed this before I have said this to him - but not so succinctly (I have adhd so my mind can be all over the place, especially if I’m overstimulated or excited )

Tell him he will need to
keep asking and not give up. Sometimes God wants to see how badly we want something and sometimes we need to determine ourselves how badly we want something. This builds tenacity in us.

Tell him there are two ways God answers this. One is all of a sudden you see yourself as God does and it’s deeply shocking and you weep because you’re A LOT worse than you suspected. Isaiah 6 describes this. And sometimes He shows you bit by bit.

This is actually a good thing for everyone to ask of God. “Show me, Lord, how you see me.”Oddly enough, one does feel loved, but one sees the true nature of one’s heart and motives. It’s pretty awful and you’re never fooled again as to what’s in you.

 

[SeaofGlass221]

Tell him he will need to
keep asking and not give up. Sometimes God wants to see how badly we want something and sometimes we need to determine ourselves how badly we want something. This builds tenacity in us.

Tell him there are two ways God answers this. One is all of a sudden you see yourself as God does and it’s deeply shocking and you weep because you’re A LOT worse than you suspected. Isaiah 6 describes this. And sometimes He shows you bit by bit.

This is actually a good thing for everyone to ask of God. “Show me, Lord, how you see me.”Oddly enough, one does feel loved, but one sees the true nature of one’s heart and motives. It’s pretty awful and you’re never fooled again as to what’s in you.

I love everything you’ve shared here Dorothy.

I wept! And felt an overwhelming love that I had no words for. My friend held me as I cried and said she didn’t even realize I didn’t believe! (No idea HOW she didn’t know but hahahah) And I still weep at times! always cleansing it seems.

He has wept, I’ve even seen it at times. Crying asking God for help - but I don’t think it wasn’t a “breaking open” yet. Clearly. He’s been broken in many other ways - but not by God in this way.

But - he doesn’t get away with anything in my presence when it comes to Who God is that’s for sure I’ll plain tell him, “sorry, you’re wrong!” purely out of love of course not to be argumentative. And I remind him that God loves him frequently

I have also told him I HAVE to believe that God is waiting because He has something in store for him that he can’t imagine…that whatever is going on inside of him now will make him so much stronger etc whenever he believes. Things like that. God is never late!!!

Honestly, I think this thread and especially your comments Dorothy have helped me think of some ways I could say the same things to him but in new ways. And maybe a newish thing or two. Which is what I was praying for!!

He likes when I write him letters and I haven’t in a bit. So I may start doing that more often and focus the content on God. He never tells me not to talk about Him, he never says I’m wrong. He is just honest in that he simply has not entered into that relationship. It was very upsetting at first, and I did get emotional about it sometimes when we talked about it at first after he told me, but God softened my heart and now I have nothing but love and compassion for him because how could I not??? He has let me pray over him as well and even I have had to talk to God about my anger / sadness that He has not answered his prayers or mine…but I told God those things so He could help me overcome them and He has. The anger is gone, the sadness - quieted.

I have often wondered about people who have believed since childhood and actually have been born again - I must say I haven’t met many - I’m not even sure I can name any right now (except maybe you I think! Haha) because it tends to be that what they have is traditions - not Truth/ God/ in Spirit. But everyone’s journey will certainly look different. I’m definitely not trying to weigh one testimony against another - noooo way! But in scripture I see time and again stories of people *boom* meeting God and THEN being changed and growing in Him forever. We are meant to learn for eternity - the brain is made to! Death is just a hiccup in that I speak so much on my “rebirth” because it reminds me of Paul who was on his way to murder believers - and BAM there was Jesus - or like I talked about in my other thread - that I questioned my salvation over and over because it was so unexpected- but then God comforted me with the story of Abraham - who was worshiping other Gods and God just, called him out. what are your thoughts on that? I guess I mean about the actual being born again / how that happens when people are young?? I just wouldn’t know!! I was almost 21 when I met God/surrendered.

I had one friend who insisted she always believed, then one day she was driving home and just *bam* realized she hadn’t actually surrendered - so she called me crying and said she was about to find someone to baptize her hahaha so amazing She and I have some of the best spiritual conversations for sure love her so much. And she used to be my boss hahahaha

 

[SeaofGlass221]

Hello SeaofGlass221.
God has people in certain places all the time for different reasons, but those reasons are always for the benefit of all.
I'd be glad to talk to your friend. I'll guarantee you he's never heard the truth of the gospel.
Some people here think I'm crazy, but I'm not and you'll know that if you actually look at my posts.
Anyway, I hope he comes to know our Lord.

I can guarantee he has heard the gospel his whole life - not from true believers all the time BUT we know God can use anything (i.e. the mouth of a donkey (Numbers 22:30) or a nonbelieving Pharisee to prophecy (John 11:51))

And he has certainly heard it from me all the time - but it says faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes the word of God. So it does not hinge on who says what to him or how, but when God speaks. Even though I can’t understand why God is waiting - He is. And I know I’ll understand one day.

His last stretch of holding on to what he thought was faith was reminiscent of the children’s song “I have decided, to follow Jesus” - as in, he tried to accept that he simply had to follow…and was willing to do that - but the more he was faced with my belief, the more he couldn’t pretend he had it. I even said to him once or twice that I was concerned that he wasn’t born again - while I am saddened this turned out to be true I am also grateful because genuine faith and growth can only come if we are broken open and honest about who we are and where we are. I believe this to be a critical step in him being able to know God - it just hurts in some ways as I’m moving through it with him…of course.

I genuinely don’t think assigning him to talk to someone I “met” online would be the best choice in this scenario. But please feel free to share what you might say to him or your thoughts and I’ll take it to God and see if it is helpful or something I can share

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I love everything you’ve shared here Dorothy.

I wept! And felt an overwhelming love that I had no words for. My friend held me as I cried and said she didn’t even realize I didn’t believe! (No idea HOW she didn’t know but hahahah) And I still weep at times! always cleansing it seems.

He has wept, I’ve even seen it at times. Crying asking God for help - but I don’t think it wasn’t a “breaking open” yet. Clearly. He’s been broken in many other ways - but not by God in this way.

But - he doesn’t get away with anything in my presence when it comes to Who God is that’s for sure I’ll plain tell him, “sorry, you’re wrong!” purely out of love of course not to be argumentative. And I remind him that God loves him frequently

I have also told him I HAVE to believe that God is waiting because He has something in store for him that he can’t imagine…that whatever is going on inside of him now will make him so much stronger etc whenever he believes. Things like that. God is never late!!!

Honestly, I think this thread and especially your comments Dorothy have helped me think of some ways I could say the same things to him but in new ways. And maybe a newish thing or two. Which is what I was praying for!!

He likes when I write him letters and I haven’t in a bit. So I may start doing that more often and focus the content on God. He never tells me not to talk about Him, he never says I’m wrong. He is just honest in that he simply has not entered into that relationship. It was very upsetting at first, and I did get emotional about it sometimes when we talked about it at first after he told me, but God softened my heart and now I have nothing but love and compassion for him because how could I not??? He has let me pray over him as well and even I have had to talk to God about my anger / sadness that He has not answered his prayers or mine…but I told God those things so He could help me overcome them and He has. The anger is gone, the sadness - quieted.

I have often wondered about people who have believed since childhood and actually have been born again - I must say I haven’t met many - I’m not even sure I can name any right now (except maybe you I think! Haha) because it tends to be that what they have is traditions - not Truth/ God/ in Spirit. But everyone’s journey will certainly look different. I’m definitely not trying to weigh one testimony against another - noooo way! But in scripture I see time and again stories of people *boom* meeting God and THEN being changed and growing in Him forever. We are meant to learn for eternity - the brain is made to! Death is just a hiccup in that I speak so much on my “rebirth” because it reminds me of Paul who was on his way to murder believers - and BAM there was Jesus - or like I talked about in my other thread - that I questioned my salvation over and over because it was so unexpected- but then God comforted me with the story of Abraham - who was worshiping other Gods and God just, called him out. what are your thoughts on that? I guess I mean about the actual being born again / how that happens when people are young?? I just wouldn’t know!! I was almost 21 when I met God/surrendered.

I had one friend who insisted she always believed, then one day she was driving home and just *bam* realized she hadn’t actually surrendered - so she called me crying and said she was about to find someone to baptize her hahaha so amazing She and I have some of the best spiritual conversations for sure love her so much. And she used to be my boss hahahaha

My very dearest sister,

I am so moved by your post. Thank you for sharing, blesses me deeply. I had to stop reading for a time I was so touched.

Regarding your question, you will find in scripture men like John the Baptist or Samuel or Jeremiah who were called to walk with God either in the womb or in their childhood. Their walk with God did not have a change over night experience. They were firm obedient servants of the Lord by the time they reached maturity.

There are many things I cannot relate to because I started my relationship with God as a child. I mean I did see my sin and wept in repentance. And I rejoice over those who repented and surrendered to God as adults being freed from a living a life with sin, but I cannot relate to that. Testimonies that mirror "Amazing Grace" I cannot relate to. I do not remember being "once lost in sin" although obviously it was so. I was a child and while still a sinner, not the kind that adults are. I have had some christians say I was not a christian because my experience was different than theirs. So our experiences can be quite different.

But the one thing that must be done and continues into adulthood is surrender. And with time, God fingers different rights we need to surrender. As one continues in depth with Him, there is more required of us. But while this price is high, the reward of intimacy with God increases with obedience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

SeaofGlass221, you know, something occurred to me. Does he regularly feel guilty for sin he commits? Does he know that this is God speaking to him and disciplining him? This indicates a relationship on a fundamental level.

God disciplines those he loves and one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin. This indicates there is relationship. It also indicates that he hears the voice of God. It sometimes seems so normal that we fail to realize that this really is God speaking to us. It is sometimes helpful to see that God really does speak to us through our conscience. Places more importance upon our responding appropriately.

I cannot stress obedience to what any believer senses God wants them to do. Responding to HIs discipline is one of these.

 

[SeaofGlass221]

SeaofGlass221, you know, something occurred to me. Does he regularly feel guilty for sin he commits? Does he know that this is God speaking to him and disciplining him? This indicates a relationship on a fundamental level.

God disciplines those he loves and one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin. This indicates there is relationship. It also indicates that he hears the voice of God. It sometimes seems so normal that we fail to realize that this really is God speaking to us. It is sometimes helpful to see that God really does speak to us through our conscience. Places more importance upon our responding appropriately.

I cannot stress obedience to what any believer senses God wants them to do. Responding to HIs discipline is one of these.

I tell him often, especially now that he says he doesn’t have that relationship- that his morals and the way he behaves are far more like Jesus than so many who claim to believe. I told him I truly think this means God is working in his life and he just can’t see it yet.

His conscience is constantly at work - and I see it more than anyone and have for years now. He is the most humble, beautiful person I know. I’m tearing up as I type this… thank you so much for this conversation it is blessing me so much.


And yes I remembered after I posted about the men in scripture called from childhood!!! This - like you said about an adult conversion - is so foreign to me. However - I do have a vivid memory of being - maybe around 6-7 … I’m honestly not sure but I was small - but I remember “praying” and saying “God, if you’re there, I know You’re GOOD! And I know you’ll show yourself to me someday!” and I remember watching the sky, or listening for something for a time - of course that didn’t happen - but the real thing happened BIG just before my 21st birthday. And He had to drag me out of old ways and teach me so much Himself. I said that wee prayer when I was little even though we weren’t a family of faith, but I had obviously heard people mention God in different ways - but none of it made sense to me / I wasn’t going to believe unless HE told me to - so in my mind I was like - He has to be so much greater than me - and I am just a little nothing creature down here haha!

So my whole life I had always subconsciously held onto that little prayer - even long after I had basically forgotten that I said it - that if He was there OF COURSE He would reveal Himself! Like, why wouldn’t He and what part could I have in that?!?! I love that memory. And it was made into a precious one when I finally came to know Him.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I tell him often, especially now that he says he doesn’t have that relationship- that his morals and the way he behaves are far more like Jesus than so many who claim to believe. I told him I truly think this means God is working in his life and he just can’t see it yet.

His conscience is constantly at work - and I see it more than anyone and have for years now. He is the most humble, beautiful person I know. I’m tearing up as I type this… thank you so much for this conversation it is blessing me so much.


And yes I remembered after I posted about the men in scripture called from childhood!!! This - like you said about an adult conversion - is so foreign to me. However - I do have a vivid memory of being - maybe around 6-7 … I’m honestly not sure but I was small - but I remember “praying” and saying “God, if you’re there, I know You’re GOOD! And I know you’ll show yourself to me someday!” and I remember watching the sky, or listening for something for a time - of course that didn’t happen - but the real thing happened BIG just before my 21st birthday. And He had to drag me out of old ways and teach me so much Himself. I said that wee prayer when I was little even though we weren’t a family of faith, but I had obviously heard people mention God in different ways - but none of it made sense to me / I wasn’t going to believe unless HE told me to - so in my mind I was like - He has to be so much greater than me - and I am just a little nothing creature down here haha!

So my whole life I had always subconsciously held onto that little prayer - even long after I had basically forgotten that I said it - that if He was there OF COURSE He would reveal Himself! Like, why wouldn’t He and what part could I have in that?!?! I love that memory. And it was made into a precious one when I finally came to know Him.

This was such a blessing to read. I can relate to that prayer in childhood. When I was little I once prayed to God to show me if he was there. I was ready to believe and He answered that prayer but not in anything dramatic. I actually do not remember how, but I know I came to believe and have never wavered from that in any significant way. I also believe your prayer as a child had that outworking. You expressed faith to Him and that is never lost. What does the Bible say, anyone who comes to God must believe that He is good. You did exactly that. He never forgot it even though He did not fulfill as you expected....an experience you wanted to have. That is very much like God.

 

[Highway54]

I feel like you misinterpreted my use of language. He wants a relationship with God. Like you said in your post - he “has heard it all from men and wants interaction with God.” That was well put. He simply hasn’t had one yet (that he’s aware of - I told him once he does he will probably realize many ways God was working in his life..) and I think anyone that’s had a genuine experience should know how it felt before vs. how it felt after…before = dead

I was NOT actively seeking God when I was born again. But I DID respond/surrender to His presence in that moment. I talk about this in my new member post so I won’t dive into it here.

Obviously I didn’t mean he knows “all” about God. Just trying to communicate he is very educated about scripture - and history - and even still lets me share my excitement and joy regarding God and my relationship with Him EVEN though it makes him sad he has not been born again. He loves me and is happy I’m happy.

No one knows “all about” God - but I didn’t think my words would be taken that literally - but again it’s been years since I’ve participated in a forum like this so sorry for any misunderstanding.

Like I mentioned above - he genuinely wishes for a relationship with God. But refuses to be dishonest about having one anymore despite family and even his previous work with a church/churches. The only reason I said “experience” is because that’s literally what has to happen in a moment of time when you meet God and are changed, and being “born again” only happens one time. Hence, an experience.

And yes I have informed him if he’s seeking an experience or some feeling from God that’s not what we should seek, but Him. He knows. Trust me - I’ve told him all the things. But because I know from my own “moment” it is NOT something we can conjure up ourselves, but a gift of God, I continue to pray, speak Truth to him and seek to love him more visibly daily as God helps me through my own life and shows me how to better love him and others.

Thank you for your thoughtful response and your prayers.

Always willing to help, we offer Bible studies personal message me if interested. Answers lie in the Bible and can be a great source of comfort and strength.

 

[journeyman]

I can guarantee he has heard the gospel his whole life - not from true believers all the time BUT we know God can use anything (i.e. the mouth of a donkey (Numbers 22:30) or a nonbelieving Pharisee to prophecy (John 11:51))

And he has certainly heard it from me all the time - but it says faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes the word of God. So it does not hinge on who says what to him or how, but when God speaks. Even though I can’t understand why God is waiting - He is. And I know I’ll understand one day.

His last stretch of holding on to what he thought was faith was reminiscent of the children’s song “I have decided, to follow Jesus” - as in, he tried to accept that he simply had to follow…and was willing to do that - but the more he was faced with my belief, the more he couldn’t pretend he had it. I even said to him once or twice that I was concerned that he wasn’t born again - while I am saddened this turned out to be true I am also grateful because genuine faith and growth can only come if we are broken open and honest about who we are and where we are. I believe this to be a critical step in him being able to know God - it just hurts in some ways as I’m moving through it with him…of course.

I genuinely don’t think assigning him to talk to someone I “met” online would be the best choice in this scenario. But please feel free to share what you might say to him or your thoughts and I’ll take it to God and see if it is helpful or something I can share

Ok sis.
Your friend reminded me of myself. For decades, I thought I was hearing the gospel in church too, but the truth has been distorted.
Tell him that Jesus wasn't being punished in place of him, or you, or me.
Jesus was being punished in place of our Father. When people commit sin, it's like slapping Jesus in the face. Hating Jesus is no different from hating God.
Our Savior held his wrath back from people who committed terrible sins against him. If our Lord had not patiently endured sin against himself (which is what our Father does every day), the people who sinned against him would be dead.

You said you don't know why God is waiting. He waits for people to consider the wrong we've done to him and repent of it.

 

[SeaofGlass221]

Ok sis.
Your friend reminded me of myself. For decades, I thought I was hearing the gospel in church too, but the truth has been distorted.
Tell him that Jesus wasn't being punished in place of him, or you, or me.
Jesus was being punished in place of our Father. When people commit sin, it's like slapping Jesus in the face. Hating Jesus is no different from hating God.
Our Savior held his wrath back from people who committed terrible sins against him. If our Lord had not patiently endured sin against himself (which is what our Father does every day), the people who sinned against him would be dead.

You said you don't know why God is waiting. He waits for people to consider the wrong we've done to him and repent of it.

Journeyman:

I had lots of course work over the weekend so I didn’t want to dive into this yet. But here we go

Can you please explain what you mean by Jesus dying in place of the Father?? I’ll save any of my thoughts on this until I read a more clear explanation from you…

Also - just have to add - saying sin is like “slapping” Jesus - is not language I can fully agree with. I understand people loooove metaphors and whatnot and they can get repeated for generations even if they aren’t whole truths. But I just can’t.

God is not mocked by absolutely anything - He is so far above all that… sin means missing the mark of holiness - and this entire planet is in a fallen state. The state we exist in IS sinful by default unless we are operating under His will / He is actively guiding us.

Yes - His heart hurts for sinners because of what it does to us and how it affects our spiritual growth. Not because He is somehow currently being abused or getting offended.

Sin is not like abusing God. We don’t have that kind of power. Sin is, however, more like self-abuse because it keeps us separated from Him.

I’m not trying to debate this. I’m simply pointing it out. There are more accurate ways to use language / discuss God and His relationship to us and His response to sin and what sin actually is.

Also, I don’t understand why you went into things like, hating Jesus is hating God…yes? But no one said it wasn’t - we know God waits so people can repent… I felt like it would be clear that what I meant was - “why” in the sense that, my fiancé has asked Him, and I have asked, many times, over time, and I simply don’t know the fullness of His plan / what He is doing in my fiancé’s heart and life yet. I know I will know someday. I wasn’t actually asking why .. but sharing my heart and experience.

 

[journeyman]

Journeyman:

I had lots of course work over the weekend so I didn’t want to dive into this yet. But here we go

I hope your course work went well.

Can you please explain what you mean by Jesus dying in place of the Father??

I’ll save any of my thoughts on this until I read a more clear explanation from you…

I didn't mean he died in place of our Father. I meant he was sinned against, just like our Father is sinned against,

the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9, Rom.15:3

now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. Jn.15:24

The death of our Saviors' flesh didn't stop him from continuing to live for one second. He always had eternal life,

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Jn.5:26

having neither beginning of days nor end of life Heb.7:3

The LORD has sworn and will not relent,
“You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” Psa.110:4

Also - just have to add - saying sin is like “slapping” Jesus - is not language I can fully agree with. I understand people loooove metaphors and whatnot and they can get repeated for generations even if they aren’t whole truths. But I just can’t.

God is not mocked by absolutely anything - He is so far above all that…

God is mocked every day. He won't be made a fool of though, because "what a man sows he reaps." And personally, I believe sin hurts our Father deeply.

sin means missing the mark of holiness -

I've never heard hate, adultery, greed, etc, put so delicately. Just call it what it is.

and this entire planet is in a fallen state. The state we exist in IS sinful by default unless we are operating under His will / He is actively guiding us.

Everyone born into this world has been taught externally by the Holy Spirit. All people know right from wrong because of him. The reason people do what's right is because they listen to his law. (I'm not saying they're not sinners as well.)

Yes - His heart hurts for sinners because of what it does to us and how it affects our spiritual growth. Not because He is somehow currently being abused or getting offended. CD Sin is not like abusing God. We don’t have that kind of power. Sin is, however, more like self-abuse because it keeps us separated from Him.

I’m not trying to debate this. I’m simply pointing it out. There are more accurate ways to use language / discuss God and His relationship to us and His response to sin and what sin actually is.

Also, I don’t understand why you went into things like, hating Jesus is hating God…yes?

I went into it because Jesus said,

he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Lk.10:16

And Paul said,

I bear the marks of Jesus on my body. Gal.6:17

And after committing adultery and murder, David said,

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Psa.51:4

But no one said it wasn’t - we know God waits so people can repent… I felt like it would be clear that what I meant was - “why” in the sense that, my fiancé has asked Him, and I have asked, many times, over time, and I simply don’t know the fullness of His plan / what He is doing in my fiancé’s heart and life yet. I know I will know someday. I wasn’t actually asking why .. but sharing my heart and experience.

I'm telling you why people don't have a heart for God. They either misunderstand him, or they have better things to do.

Hasn't your fiance been taught that Jesus died in place of him? Punished by his Father in place of sinners for their wrongdoing? Let him know, that's not ture.

 

[Riven]

I have been in a relationship now for 6 years, we are engaged. When we first started dating, he said he was a believer and even involved with a church / lead music.

Last year, he opened up and said he believed he had never had a conversion experience - he was just raised to believe and has prayed for years for God to reveal Himself…but He still has not. This was not easy for him, it was and still is very painful. The main thing that made him realize this was my own conversion / testimony, because I had a genuine experience and was changed that very day, and I was not raised to believe anything and actually had an extreme aversion to any religion.

While I am thankful he is now being truthful with where he is spiritually, I am also deeply saddened because now God and the Bible are topics that upset him. He is still willing to discuss it, to an extent, but he has been hurt by churches and their misguided ideologies, and also doesn’t understand why God would ignore him since he has literally begged God to show him the truth of His existence nearly his whole life. He is angry with God because of this and because of all the horrible things that happen on earth; he has a very hard time reconciling a loving God with the state of the world and the depravity of human history, and because no matter how much he asks, God has still not revealed Himself.

I suppose I am asking for prayer, and any advice on things I could say from time to time that might be helpful…because he does truly want to know God, but simply is being honest about not being born again…and it hurts me that something that brings me endless joy, brings him so much pain. I do love him and will not be leaving him. Morally he behaves better than most people who claim to be Christian, and we share common core values and interests, as in quite literally all of them except God currently..and he does not belittle me for my faith, rather he says he hopes God shows Himself to him like He did me. He is a rock in my life and my daughter’s life (I was in an abusive marriage before - and we had a child together.)

He’s a beautiful soul that is suffering…and I often feel powerless but I know this is between him and God…but it does hurt in more ways than one.

Thanks for reading.

A man after my own heart. Some of us are just built this way. We require evidence for belief systems. I doubt prayer will suddenly make him change his mind.

 

[SeaofGlass221]

Journeyman said: “God is mocked every day. He won't be made a fool of though, because "what a man sows he reaps." And personally, I believe sin hurts our Father deeply.”

It’s funny you said God is mocked before pasting the second half of the verse that says “God is not mocked”

“Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.”

Being mocked - and feeling mocked / offended are different things. That’s all.

And saying it hurts Him - in the sense that He cares for us - is the same thing I said. But the “slapping” thing seems to be something the current older generation likes to repeat. And it just doesn’t encompass the relationship God has with us very well at all. It’s just something I’m noticing - not really of any great consequence I suppose. Maybe…

JMan said: “The death of our Saviors' flesh didn't stop him from continuing to live for one second. He always had eternal life”

This is true of Who He is in Spirit- but His body most certainly died - which is the whole point of the gospel. The whole point of Him having humanity. I’m also unsure why you’re sharing this, as well. Having a hard time following your points.

JMan said:
“I've never heard hate, adultery, greed, etc, put so delicately. Just call it what it is.”

I literally am calling it what it is. “To miss the mark” is the most accurate English translation of “sin” as it is used in the Hebrew and Greek……..

You quoted Paul saying he bore the marks of Jesus - yes? He was talking about the literal beatings he had received for his teachings...

Again, I genuinely had trouble following your last post / understanding what you were trying to communicate. Sorry.

You said the only way people can do right is following the law. This is a contradictory statement to what Jesus taught. The law is not what brings righteousness - and “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” John 1:8 … the only way we can “do right” is by accepting we can’t “do right” and believing, trusting, seeking God. “So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.” 1 Cor 3:7

Saying we can accomplish anything good by following the law is legalism … and means Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t “all” that was required to save us and puts the burden back on us to live a “good” life:

“O LORD, You will establish peace for us. For all that we have accomplished, You have done for us.” Isaiah 26:12

JMan said: “Hasn't your fiance been taught that Jesus died in place of him? Punished by his Father in place of sinners for their wrongdoing? Let him know, that's not true.”

Can you please explain what you mean by this last statement..?

 

[SeaofGlass221]

I hope your course work went well.

Oh and thank you! It did! I absolutely love what I’m studying (speech pathology) - but I have gotten into the tougher courses! But it’s still going super well Thankful

 

[SeaofGlass221]

A man after my own heart. Some of us are just built this way. We require evidence for belief systems. I doubt prayer will suddenly make him change his mind.

Well we are told to pray, so I certainly have and will continue! Hehe!

And if we base beliefs on evidence - this is different than Jesus coming into a life and saving them / giving them the gift of faith that He then causes to grow.

Trust me I have shown him all the evidence I can haha and ultimately God has told me just to continue to learn to love him better and as I grow closer to God there is hope that my fiancé will see God in my life - people can debate ancient evidence forever but it’s hard to debate evidence staring you in the face even if he can’t see it yet the consistency I have in my own walk and the more I can learn to be like Jesus is scripturally what is said to be able to lead him to God. I know it’s not up to me to save him, but I obviously am invested in this case haha and even though I can still be a poor representation of Christ I am honest about that with him and actively learning how to be less of a poor representation

But yes you’re right the way you described him is pretty accurate hahaha but it’s just more than that when it comes to a spiritual life!

Hope I made sense. Xoxo

 

[journeyman]

Journeyman said: “God is mocked every day. He won't be made a fool of though, because "what a man sows he reaps." And personally, I believe sin hurts our Father deeply.”

It’s funny you said God is mocked before pasting the second half of the verse that says “God is not mocked”

Yes sis, I completed that verse because without the sowing and reaping part, people who thought they knew our God will be shocked to hear him say he never knew them.
It's like when people cite,

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, Rom.8:1

That's not really where the verse ends.

“Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.”

Being mocked - and feeling mocked / offended are different things. That’s all.

I know. That's what I mean. In this world there's a lot of indifference to it,

The one who mocks the poor insults his Creator; Pro.17:4

I'm just showing you what our Lord wants me to show you. Ok? Listen carefully.

When we think of ourselves as superior to others in any way, we put ourselves "under the law." Please understand, our dear Savior did this by example. Only by example, because the reality is, Jesus is God and is the only human being who walked on planet earth who could point his finger at anyone.
God himself in human flesh did warn people of condemnation, but never condemned them while on earth and the early church followed walked after his Spirit.

This is what Paul meant when he spoke of people who are under the condemnation of the law,

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? Rom.2:23

And saying it hurts Him - in the sense that He cares for us - is the same thing I said. But the “slapping” thing seems to be something the current older generation likes to repeat.

The much older generation repeated it over 2000 years ago. Honestly, from your responses, I don't think you know what I'm saying.

SeaofGlass:
And it just doesn’t encompass the relationship God has with us very well at all. It’s just something I’m noticing - not really of any great consequence I suppose. Maybe…

It's of the utmost importance and for the very reason you stated. because nailing God to a cross just doesn’t encompass the relationship God has with us very well.
Most people know it's wrong to want your kid hanging from a tree for being innocent, but when it comes to God they believe he did.

JMan said: “The death of our Saviors' flesh didn't stop him from continuing to live for one second. He always had eternal life”

This is true of Who He is in Spirit- but His body most certainly died - which is the whole point of the gospel. The whole point of Him having humanity. I’m also unsure why you’re sharing this, as well. Having a hard time following your points.

My point is that while Jesus was on earth he was tempted by the devil to kill his enemies. He sweat blood instead.

JMan said:
“I've never heard hate, adultery, greed, etc, put so delicately. Just call it what it is.”

I literally am calling it what it is. “To miss the mark” is the most accurate English translation of “sin” as it is used in the Hebrew and Greek……..

I I understand missing the mark better using the example of people crucifying Jesus.

You quoted Paul saying he bore the marks of Jesus - yes? He was talking about the literal beatings he had received for his teachings...

Again, I genuinely had trouble following your last post / understanding what you were trying to communicate. Sorry.

That's great. I thought you believed Jesus died in place of you.

You said the only way people can do right is following the law.

That's not what I said.

This is a contradictory statement to what Jesus taught. The law is not what brings righteousness - and “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” John 1:8

I agree totally. The law was meant to humble me, because the law was only meant for lawbreakers, which I am. I won't condemn myself by not showing the same grace to others.
The greatest witness to this is Christ, because he like our Father, never gave anyone any reason to sin against him but, we did.

… the only way we can “do right” is by accepting we can’t “do right” and believing, trusting, seeking God. “So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.” 1 Cor 3:7

I know all comes from him, which is why everyone enters life with a desire to know our God. What led me back to him was a dear sister "in Christ." She sure lookeda lot like our Lord.

Saying we can accomplish anything good by following the law is legalism … and means Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t “all” that was required to save us and puts the burden back on us to live a “good” life:

Sis, listen carefully. I'm not saying the law is a source of pride. God writes his law in the hearts of believers so that we remember his kindness toward all. He wants me to remember it when I don't like how I'm being treated.

“O LORD, You will establish peace for us. For all that we have accomplished, You have done for us.” Isaiah 26:12

I thank him for that peace. It's funny how Peter went from trying to whack a guys' head off to being killed.

JMan said: “Hasn't your fiance been taught that Jesus died in place of him? Punished by his Father in place of sinners for their wrongdoing? Let him know, that's not true.”

Can you please explain what you mean by this last statement..?

I mean, did the Pastor or congregation teach your future husband that God punished his Son instead of your fiance?
If so, let him know that's not true.

 

[journeyman]

Well we are told to pray, so I certainly have and will continue! Hehe!

And if we base beliefs on evidence - this is different than Jesus coming into a life and saving them / giving them the gift of faith that He then causes to grow.

Trust me I have shown him all the evidence I can haha and ultimately God has told me just to continue to learn to love him better and as I grow closer to God there is hope that my fiancé will see God in my life - people can debate ancient evidence forever but it’s hard to debate evidence staring you in the face even if he can’t see it yet the consistency I have in my own walk and the more I can learn to be like Jesus is scripturally what is said to be able to lead him to God. I know it’s not up to me to save him, but I obviously am invested in this case haha and even though I can still be a poor representation of Christ I am honest about that with him and actively learning how to be less of a poor representation

But yes you’re right the way you described him is pretty accurate hahaha but it’s just more than that when it comes to a spiritual life!

Hope I made sense. Xoxo

Your faithful witness is what the gospel is all about. I'm not sure what the meeting hall you went to teaches, but people must believe in him before they receive his Spirit.