My Warped View

[unred typo]

Some of you people think I have a warped view of works and grace. But, my view is biblical and unfortunately, yours is the warped one. (Those with closed minds may quit reading here)

Grace is how we are entitled to salvation, works is how we acquire it. God offers salvation freely to all men everywhere, not because of any merit on our part, but solely because of his great love and mercy. We work out that free salvation in order to receive it. We will be judged by the works we did in faith, because we believed in the words and work of Christ. (Those who don’t want to think beyond a few phrases they can refute easily, may want to stop here)

In America, an education is freely provided to all grade school age citizens, not of works by the child or any qualification they must meet. Even if their parents are on welfare and contribute nothing to the funds, their children are entitled to a free education. It could be said to be by grace of the state. Does that mean that because education is free so that no child can boast that they earned it, that they don’t have to work to receive it? (If your limit is 3 paragraphs of reading, you may answer ‘yes’ here and go back to your video game, soap opera or other amusement. The rest of you, pay attention: )

The same is true of salvation. It is freely provided, not of works, lest any man should boast. We are like the children on welfare, who have nothing to contribute to pay for their education, we have nothing to contribute to pay for our salvation. Does that mean there is no work involved to actually make that freely provided education (or salvation) work for us? We have to study to get approval, we have to learn the facts and the laws, we have to actually apply them to our hearts and minds, and then, we have to work out this knowledge in our lives for an education (or a salvation) to really be of any benefit to us. A freely provided education will not save a child from poverty if he doesn’t apply himself to learn it.

If he doesn’t apply himself; study and learn to read, do math, understand science and history, etc. that education is meaningless and will do nothing to give him a prosperous live. Likewise, if we do not apply our hearts and lives to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, our freely provided salvation will do nothing to give us eternal life. Just as there are rules in math and grammar and chemistry, there are rules in learning Christ. Love one another, forgive as you have been forgiven, be humble, give your goods to the poor, be fair, be merciful, etc. are all things we must learn and do in order to be saved. This is not a violation of the freely given salvation, it is the acquiring of it! These are not works to EARN our salvation, they are works to APPLY that salvation to our lives, to work for us and bring us into the eternal life that the free gift of Christ‘s blood makes available to us.

Jesus provided the way of salvation. We don’t have to build the road to heaven, but we have to walk on it in order to get there. What is the way that Jesus gave us to walk in? It is straight and narrow and it leads to life everlasting. It is love one another as I have loved you, forgive as you have been forgiven, turn the other cheek, revenge not yourselves but love your enemies, lay up treasures in heaven, and not on earth, give and ask nothing in return, to name a few. These are not easily done but if you choose to follow Christ, the Holy Spirit will strengthen you.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Hi
It is not because of works that we are saved, but because of salvation through His grace that we work.

Sleep sound in Jesus
GraceBwithU

 

[Drew]

We cannot hide from Romans 2, despite the fact that many in the Reformed tradition attempt to.

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Unred and I did not write these texts. Paul did. How do those who think we are not justified by our works (huge asterisk here - see below) avoid the import of these texts? They claim that these texts apply to a non-existant category of persons - that Paul is here writing about how we would get saved if we could get saved by works. Needless to say, with this kind of thinking, the sky's the limit. Why not suggest that the texts supporting "saved by faith and not by works" are written about a non-existent set of persons.

There is something deeply flawed in the way Romans 2 is often dismissed. We need an exegesis that takes all texts seriously. And now for the asterisk: I suggest that we are indeed justified by faith in the sense that placing faith on Jesus results in the gift of the Spirit which enables us to do the works that will justify us in the end. So without playing any games, we can legitimately claim that we are justified by our works but that we deserve no credit for this.

Is this view a little complex with its curious "God-given and freely accepted faith in the present ensures future justification by works in the future" character? Yes it is. But at least it does not involve sweeping Romans 2 under the rug and hoping nobody notices.

Here is a quote from NT Wright that I think is relevant:

So things are much more complicated and happily much more interesting than the rather logic-chopping post-Reformational over-formulated systems would allow. Fortunately, Paul is much more interesting than most of his interpreters, myself included.

 

[unred typo]

quote by GraceBwithU on Thu Nov 22, 2007:
Hi
It is not because of works that we are saved, but because of salvation through His grace that we work.

Thanks for your input, GraceBwithU. I have a problem with your statement, however. I find that Calvinists carefully separate the works from the actual salvation of the individual in this same way you have done here. As long as your works are not any part of the determining factor by which you are judged worthy of eternal life, you will not be getting the full effect of what Jesus taught. It is a very subtle deception cloaked in a false humility.

If we just read what Jesus taught, in the gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, what do we find? We find a gospel of works being set forth as the way of eternal life! Jesus does not upbraid people for their pride in doing works of mercy, faith and truth, but he does attack hypocrisy and those who pretend to follow God while in their works they deny him. He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He tells us how the law is fulfilled in one word, Love. If we have love for one another, we will not be breaking any of God’s laws because all of them are predicated on love. We are going to be judged by how we applied ourselves to following Christ‘s perfect example.

Does that mean we are not saved by grace? No, for without grace, we would not be accepted unless we attained the perfection that Christ did. We all have sinned and been disqualified from the prize of eternal life but since his blood will cover our sins when we confess and repent of them, we can be perfect in Christ and the evil fleshly nature can be put to death and we can live on in the new creation in Christ. So we cannot boast of our perfect works saving us, but we can only make our boast in how the blood of Christ covers our sins and enables us to attain salvation through following Christ.

 

[unred typo]

GraceBwithU, I’m sorry if I offended you. I just reread my comments and I didn’t mean to say that the “very subtle deception cloaked in a false humility†was the way you presented your post. I was referring to this idea that all man’s works are filthy rags, unacceptable by God, that has completely permeated most denominations. It’s one of the buzz-verses of the day. It would be quite a normal and innocently held belief by those who trust their pastors and shepherds to lead them in the right paths.

I believed it once myself and one of the hardest things I had to deal with was believing that all those well studied and sophisticated Bible scholars and ‘giants of the faith’ could have it so wrong, and me, a nobody-know-nothing-but-what-I-read-in-plain-English, could be right. The amazing thing is that the Holy Spirit is available to everyone that earnestly seeks the truth. Just keep your slingshot ready and bring those giants down with a well placed verse. Apply directly to the forehead. :

 

[Drew]

Just keep your slingshot ready and bring those giants down with a well placed verse. Apply directly to the forehead. :

That's not bad. Can I use it too?

 

[handy]

Just keep your slingshot ready and bring those giants down with a well placed verse. Apply directly to the forehead. :

That's not bad. Can I use it too?

:-D

I see what you are saying unred, but I think I believe differently, a subtle difference but an important one.

Let me refer to your school child. The fact is that America provides a free education to all. Does this mean that all are educated? No, not at all. Who then are the ones receiveing the 'grace' of the state? The ones you find in the school houses on any given weekday doing the hard work of readin', 'ritin', and 'rithmatic'. We know who are educated by America's generous education policy by seeing those who are doing the work.

So then, since America provides free education, does this then mean that all who are educated have 'partaken' of America's grace?

Of course not! Some might be homeschooled, some might be privately educated, some may have gone to school in Canada or Japan. Many, many folks in the world know their 3R's, but most not because of America's grace. Then there are the myraid of people who never learned the 3R's in the first place, maybe because they were unable to get to America to partake in America's grace, or perhaps they were born and raised here, but rejected the opportunity.

Back to salvation: God provides the salvation freely. How do we know if someone has partaken of that salvation? Jesus said, and the apostles reiterated, that we are known by our works. We can then surmise that anyone who does the 'works' of salvation: love, charity, good deeds etc. are then saved by the grace that God provided.

However, just because someone is loving, is charitable, does good deeds, is the finest example of godly morality on the planet, is by no means proof that they have partaken in God's free grace of salvation. Maybe their morality is from their own religion that demands a morality (think mormonism).

This is the truest test then of our 'works': did we do them because they were the works set for us by God, that He prepared beforehand and mentioned in Ephesians 2:10?

If not, then they are indeed 'filthy rags' and no proof of salvation.

As an example I point to King Saul and the battle with the Amalekites. (1 Samuel 15) God had ordered Saul to defeat the Amalekites and Saul was to utterly destroy everything.

"But Saul and the people spared Agag (the Amalekite king) and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed." (vs 9)

Sameul came to Saul and severely rebuked him for his disobedience, but Saul excused himself saying "I did obey the voice of the Lord, and went on the mission on which the Lord sent me, and have brought back Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. But the people took some of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the choicest of the things devoted to destruction, to sacrifice to the Lord your God at Gilgal." (vs 20-21)

Now, some might look at Saul and think, wow, he brought the very best to God to be sacrificed. What a good king he is, he isn't saving the best for himself, he is giving the best to God.

Only God didn't want it, because the 'saving of the best' was disobedient in the first place. Sacrificing the best of the sheep and oxen was a 'good work' of Israelites, but only if it was a 'work' that God commanded. Saul's 'good work' was in rebellion to God's command.

As long as one is in rebellion to God, then all our righteous acts are filthy. The ONLY way our righteous act are not filty is that they are born out of our obedient service to God, in other words, they are the 'works that He prepared beforehand'.

This whole salvation issue is very clearly delinated in Ephesians 2: 8-10. So many only quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and stop short of 10, but 10 is vital to the clear understanding of the issue. Or else, they point out verse 10 and ignore the impact of verses 8-9 which are also vital:

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no man should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So, if we are indeed walking in the good works that God prepared for us to do, then yes, this is proof that we are saved by God's grace. But, simply walking in good works, not the works that God prepared for those He saves, is no proof of salvation at all.

Summation: We are not 'saved by grace and works are of no merit' (a Calvinist view)nor are we 'saved by grace and our works' (your "warped" view?)but:

"We are saved by grace TO DO good works." If we fail to do the work that God has placed before us, then we know by this 'fruit' that we are still in rebellion. If we are doing the work that God HAS placed before us, then this becomes a proof that we have been indeed saved by His grace.

 

[unred typo]

quote by handy on Fri Nov 23, 2007:


I see what you are saying unred, but I think I believe differently, a subtle difference but an important one.

Let me refer to your school child. The fact is that America provides a free education to all. Does this mean that all are educated? No, not at all. Who then are the ones receiveing the 'grace' of the state? The ones you find in the school houses on any given weekday doing the hard work of readin', 'ritin', and 'rithmatic'. We know who are educated by America's generous education policy by seeing those who are doing the work.

So then, since America provides free education, does this then mean that all who are educated have 'partaken' of America's grace?

Of course not! Some might be homeschooled, some might be privately educated, some may have gone to school in Canada or Japan. Many, many folks in the world know their 3R's, but most not because of America's grace. Then there are also the myraid of people who never learned the 3R's in the first place, maybe because they were unable to get to America to partake in America's grace, or perhaps they were born and raised here, but rejected the opportunity.

Back to salvation: God freely provides the salvation freely. How do we know if someone has partaken of that salvation? Jesus said, and the apostles reiterated that we are known by our works. We can then surmise that anyone who does the 'works' of salvation: love, charity, good deeds etc. are then saved by the grace that God provided.

You are getting off track. Answer this: Do you agree that just because the education is free to the child, that it still must be acquired through and because of his working at it? This is the point I am trying to get across. Working to gain a free salvation is the same as working to gain a free education. It doesn’t make the education less ‘free’ to the one who works to receive it. In fact, the child who doesn’t work at the education freely given him, has neglected so great education just as surely as the one who doesn’t work at their salvation freely given them has neglected so great salvation. Neither one is better off than if they were never offered it. Sitting in church or going to the altar doesn’t guarantee you will be saved any more than riding the school bus and attending school will guarantee that you will get an education. You must apply yourself to the teachings of the school or the teachings of Christ.

quote by handy:
However, just because someone is loving, is charitable, does good deeds, is the finest example of godly morality on the planet, is by no means proof that they have partaken in God's free grace of salvation. Maybe their morality is from their own religion that demands a morality (think mormonism).

The only way that charitable good deeds are not working out your salvation is if you have wrong motives for doing them, such as to be seen of men, or to benefit from them somehow. If I give to a charity in order to get a tax break, or to be written about in the news, I have received my reward already. A labor of love done unselfishly or sacrificially for someone else is a work done for Christ. These will not be forgotten by God.

quote by handy:
This is the truest test then of our 'works': did we do them because they were the works set for us by God, that He prepared beforehand and mentioned in Ephesians 2:10?

If not, then they are indeed 'filthy rags' and no proof of salvation.

If we do ceremonial things as a hypocritical show of our supposed righteousness while we are in rebellion to God, our works are not pleasing to God. The works that Ephesians speaks of are ANY works of love, faith and obedience to the teachings of Christ.

quote by handy:
As an example I point to King Saul and the battle with the Amalekites. (1 Samuel 15) God had ordered Saul to defeat the Amalekites and Saul was to utterly destroy everything.

"But Saul and the people spared Agag (the Amalekite king) and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed." (vs 9)

Sameul came to Saul and severely rebuked him for his disobedience, but Saul excused himself saying "I did obey the voice of the Lord, and went on the mission on which the Lord sent me, and have brought back Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. But the popel took some of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the choicest of the things devoted to destruction, to sacrifice to the Lord your God at Gilgal." (vs 20-21)

Now, some might look at Saul and think, wow, he brought the very best to God to be sacrificed. What a good king he is, he isn't saving the best for himself, he is giving the best to God.

Only God didn't want it, because the 'saving of the best' was disobedient in the first place. Sacrificing the best of the sheep and oxen was a 'good work' of Israelites, but only if it was a 'work' that God commanded. Saul's 'good work' was in rebellion to God's command.

As long as one is in rebellion to God, then all our righteous acts are filthy. The ONLY way our righteous act are not filty is that they are born out of our obedient service to God, in other words, they are the 'works that He prepared beforehand'.

I like your example here. I find your conclusion to be redundant and confusing. Our righteous acts are pleasing to God if they are done in obedience to Christ. Saul was greedy and disobedient and tried to cover it up with a sacrifice. He was only putting a good face on his sin and trying to pass it off as obedience. This is not the same as doing good deeds because you want to please God or because you love your neighbor. God is pleased when you choose to obey and follow Christ’s example of love and good works. He will reward those deeds.

quote by handy:
This whole salvation issue is very clearly delinated in Ephesians 2: 8-10. So many only quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and stop short of 10, but 10 is vital to the clear understanding of the issue:

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no man should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So, if we are indeed walking in the good works that God prepared for us to do, then yes, this is proof that we are saved by God's grace. But, simply walking in good works, not the works that God prepared for those He saves, is no proof of salvation at all.

Summation: We are not 'saved by grace and works are of no merit' (a Calvinist view)nor are we 'saved by grace and our works' (your "warped" view?)but:

"We are saved by grace TO DO good works." If we fail to do the work that God has placed before us, then we know by this 'fruit' that we are still in rebellion. If we are doing the work that God HAS placed before us, then this becomes a proof that we have been indeed saved by His grace.

I don’t think Mondar would allow your summation of his Calvinistic view but I’ll let him correct you. His view and yours are more similar than you admit to.

If works are not part of our salvation, in fact, the very acquiring of that salvation, then why are we going to be judged by our works for the reward of eternal life? Again, let me repeat, we are saved by grace because we are being graciously offered the opportunity to follow Christ and attain eternal life even though we cannot pay for our own sin. Works of faith, love and obedience are how we attain the eternal life made possible by the forgiveness of our sin through the shed blood of Christ. If Jesus did not pay for our salvation on the cross, you could not work your way to heaven no matter how hard you tried. Payment for sins had to be made and not another man was able to do that for us.

 

[stranger]

We cannot hide from Romans 2, despite the fact that many in the Reformed tradition attempt to.

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Unred and I did not write these texts. Paul did. How do those who think we are not justified by our works (huge asterisk here - see below) avoid the import of these texts? They claim that these texts apply to a non-existant category of persons - that Paul is here writing about how we would get saved if we could get saved by works. Needless to say, with this kind of thinking, the sky's the limit. Why not suggest that the texts supporting "saved by faith and not by works" are written about a non-existent set of persons.

There is something deeply flawed in the way Romans 2 is often dismissed. We need an exegesis that takes all texts seriously. And now for the asterisk: I suggest that we are indeed justified by faith in the sense that placing faith on Jesus results in the gift of the Spirit which enables us to do the works that will justify us in the end. So without playing any games, we can legitimately claim that we are justified by our works but that we deserve no credit for this.

Is this view a little complex with its curious "God-given and freely accepted faith in the present ensures future justification by works in the future" character? Yes it is. But at least it does not involve sweeping Romans 2 under the rug and hoping nobody notices.

Here is a quote from NT Wright that I think is relevant:

So things are much more complicated and happily much more interesting than the rather logic-chopping post-Reformational over-formulated systems would allow. Fortunately, Paul is much more interesting than most of his interpreters, myself included.

Hi Drew,

There are many perspectives throughout the scriptures about the righteous and the wicked. What is offered in Romans 2:5-8 is consistent the saying: 'by their fruits you will know them'.

Romans 2:5-8 is not Paul's OPUS MAGNUM for salvation but rather Paul's OPUS MAGNUM for God's basis of judgment. Verse 1 points out the hyprocrisy of those practice things that they judge in others. Paul is correcting a hypocrisy that could be resident in believers and unbelievers unlike. His audience is to the Jew and also the greek.

The Reformed perspective simply says this - work out the basis of your salvation in fear and trembling and then live it. As a check to see if your confession is consistent with what you are inside - let each man examine his works . . .By your fruits you will know what you are OR at least HOW you are walking in faith.

Paul's Romans 2:1-10 was never intended to be the OPUS of salavtion but rather a check that you are or are not saved.


Romans 2:1-10 (New American Standard Bible)
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[Drew]

Romans 2:5-8 is not Paul's OPUS MAGNUM for salvation but rather Paul's OPUS MAGNUM for God's basis of judgment. Verse 1 points out the hyprocrisy of those practice things that they judge in others. Paul is correcting a hypocrisy that could be resident in believers and unbelievers unlike. His audience is to the Jew and also the greek.

The Reformed perspective simply says this - work out the basis of your salvation in fear and trembling and then live it. As a check to see if your confession is consistent with what you are inside - let each man examine his works . . .By your fruits you will know what you are OR at least HOW you are walking in faith.

Paul's Romans 2:1-10 was never intended to be the OPUS of salavtion but rather a check that you are or are not saved.

I am not 100 % sure what you are saying but I think the case that texts like this:

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

are simply a "check" on a salvation that is othewise not based on the content of our "lives lived" cannot be sustained. Please consider what the text actually says and not what certain traditions wish it to say.

The above text seems to be clear: eternal life is granted to those who "in doing good work, seek for........ ".

I suggest that Romans 2 is a chapter that many in the reformed tradition have either swept under the rug or interpreted in patently untenable ways such as "this text is about how we would be justified by works if we could be justified this way".

We need to accept it as is and build a theology that doesn't require us to make untenable interpretations.

 

[handy]

Romans 2:5-8 is not Paul's OPUS MAGNUM for salvation but rather Paul's OPUS MAGNUM for God's basis of judgment. Verse 1 points out the hyprocrisy of those practice things that they judge in others. Paul is correcting a hypocrisy that could be resident in believers and unbelievers unlike. His audience is to the Jew and also the greek.

The Reformed perspective simply says this - work out the basis of your salvation in fear and trembling and then live it. As a check to see if your confession is consistent with what you are inside - let each man examine his works . . .By your fruits you will know what you are OR at least HOW you are walking in faith.

Paul's Romans 2:1-10 was never intended to be the OPUS of salavtion but rather a check that you are or are not saved.

I am not 100 % sure what you are saying ...

I get it Stranger, and agree with you. It was the point I was trying to make earlier.

I don't think anyone would agree that once someone is saved, they can then go out and do whatever they want, because they're "in". A person who lives life without doing the good works that God has prepared us to do is evidence, very clear evidence of a person who is without salvation.

BUT, there is a difference between working out one's salvation, and working to get salvation.

I've said it somewhere, and the way this subject is jumping about on different threads, I'm not sure where, that salvation is something that is not either done or will be done. Our salvation is one of those things that was completed by Jesus on the cross, is being completed as we do our works, and will be completed when we are fully justified by Christ on judgement day. Yes, our works will be judged, but they will not be judged as to whether or not we are worthy for salvation, but how we handled our salvation. Will we be good fruit, or a useless tare?

unred, I'm sorry that I wasn't clearer with my earlier text. Let me try to clarify what I'm getting at, as far as what I think the difference between "working out one's salvation" and "works is how we attain salvation" is:

You had said in response to my earlier post regarding Ephesians 2:10 "The works that Ephesians speaks of are ANY works of love, faith and obedience to the teachings of Christ."

This is where my reference to Saul came in. Saul, by carrying the best of the sheep and oxen back to be sacrificed to God did in fact do a work of faith and obedience to the teachings of God, indeed he was obeying the letter of the law. After all, it was commanded that the first-fruits and the best be sacrificed. Saul was actually following after what the standard of 'good works' was for the Israelites. The actions in of themselves were not wrong. What was wrong was that, in this particular occaison, God DID NOT WANT the sacrifices.

So, ANY work of love, faith or obedience to the teachings of Christ, (ie, the Scriptures) may not necessarily be the same as the work that God has prepared for us to do. We need to be in constant prayerful communication with Him, so that the works we do are indeed the works He would have us do. And, the only way to be in that kind of communication with God, is to have the Holy Spirit, something that we have when we are "born of the Spirit", born-again. This is when, where and how salvation is effected in us, when we are born of the Spirit through faith. It is only AFTER we are born-again (I truly prefer the use of the word "re-generated" simply because "born-again" has developed a different connotation these days) that we can "work out" our salvation in obedience to God's will in doing the work that He has prepared for us to do. Saul failed, because although he was annointed as king, he didn't have the faith that brought about salvation. Frankly, Saul didn't sin any more or less than David sinned. The difference between Saul and David was that Saul always stood in rebellion against God, not having faith, and David, through faith, was humbled and obiedient to God, even in the midst of his sins.

Again, I'll point to Ephesians 2:8-10 because I believe that it delinates the process pretty much as it happens: Because of God's grace we are saved. We receive this saving grace via faith from the Spirit. This happens first. It is clearly stated just so that there will be NO MISUNDERSTANDING that we are NOT saved on the basis of our works, and that no man will have any cause to boast. But, once we are saved, then we need to recognized that we are saved for a purpose, and that purpose is to carry out the works God has prepared for us to do. Failure to follow through on these works is proof that there is no salvation in the first place.

Gee, it's late and I've probably only muddied things more than clarified things. (Still reeling over my Bronco's loss to Hawaii I guess.) But I just cannot see how anyone can look at Ephesians 2:8-10 and not see how clear the process of salvation is worked out and what the balance of faith and works is.

 

[unred typo]

quote by handy:
I get it Stranger, and agree with you. It was the point I was trying to make earlier.

I don't think anyone would agree that once someone is saved, they can then go out and do whatever they want, because they're "in". A person who lives life without doing the good works that God has prepared us to do is evidence, very clear evidence of a person who is without salvation.

BUT, there is a difference between working out one's salvation, and working to get salvation.

There is but it isn‘t what you think. Exchange the word, ‘salvation’ with ‘education’. Is there a difference between working out one’s education and working to get an education? Yes, by all means. If you work out your education, you are applying the principles you freely were given by your educators. You are learning to obey the laws of math, science and grammar in your everyday life, and using what you have been taught to solve the problems you are faced with. This equates to following the principles of love and good works that have been given us by Christ.

If someone goes to a freely provided school, and doesn’t pay attention to the things he has been taught, is he educated or will he fail when he is tested? Is he educated if he never learns or applies what he is taught? The same is true of one who has been freely given the way of salvation and does not apply himself to what Jesus taught us to do in order to be saved. Applying the principles of love and good works, obeying the commands of Christ is not working to pay for your salvation, in the same sense. It is just how you attain that salvation. Just as you attain an education by doing your ‘reading, ritin an rithmetic,’ you attain your salvation by love, faith and good works. You still have not paid for your own salvation any more than you can claim to have paid for your education.

If you say you are working to get an education, you are saying that you are the one paying for the right to attend school somewhere because the cost would not be provided by someone else. If you go on from grade/high school to college in this country, you would be on your own and could say that you have paid for your own education if you foot the college tuition bill with your own money.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing and just talking by one another. If so, is my view considered warped when I say we must do what Jesus taught us in order to be saved? I am not saying that Jesus did not freely provide us with a way of salvation. He paid the price for our salvation, now we must work out that salvation in our lives by works of love, faith and obedience to the commands he has taught us.

quote by handy:
I've said it somewhere, and the way this subject is jumping about on different threads, I'm not sure where, that salvation is something that is not either done or will be done. Our salvation is one of those things that was completed by Jesus on the cross, is being completed as we do our works, and will be completed when we are fully justified by Christ on judgement day. Yes, our works will be judged, but they will not be judged as to whether or not we are worthy for salvation, but how we handled our salvation. Will we be good fruit, or a useless tare?

OK, maybe we are on the same page here. You seem to fluctuate. The price for our salvation was fully paid for on the cross. Now, every single person on the planet has the right to attend the school of Christ and learn of him the way of salvation, which is by applying ourselves to the works of love, faith and following the commands he taught us. How well we follow them is what we will be judged by. God has already declared that all are to be given salvation freely and without cost. It is freely available to all, but only those who work it out will be saved. But is that being saved by works? Technically no. Apparently so. Very hard to explain, isn’t it?
I think the education analogy works pretty good though.

quote by handy:
unred, I'm sorry that I wasn't clearer with my earlier text. Let me try to clarify what I'm getting at, as far as what I think the difference between "working out one's salvation" and "works is how we attain salvation" is:

NP. This is where I’m pretty sure we are stumbling over the terms and not really disagreeing in principle. Do you now see what I mean by "works is how we attain salvation" ? It is not works of law to pay for our sin, (i.e. the right sacrifice to kill in the proper way to pay for this sin or the other) but the working out of our salvation by following the way of Christ (i.e. love, faith, humility, mercy, etc…iow, good deeds) in our lives.

quote by handy:
You had said in response to my earlier post regarding Ephesians 2:10 "The works that Ephesians speaks of are ANY works of love, faith and obedience to the teachings of Christ."

This is where my reference to Saul came in. Saul, by carrying the best of the sheep and oxen back to be sacrificed to God did in fact do a work of faith and obedience to the teachings of God, indeed he was obeying the letter of the law. After all, it was commanded that the first-fruits and the best be sacrificed. Saul was actually following after what the standard of 'good works' was for the Israelites. The actions in of themselves were not wrong. What was wrong was that, in this particular occaison, God DID NOT WANT the sacrifices.

So, ANY work of love, faith or obedience to the teachings of Christ, (ie, the Scriptures) may not necessarily be the same as the work that God has prepared for us to do. We need to be in constant prayerful communication with Him, so that the works we do are indeed the works He would have us do. And, the only way to be in that kind of communication with God, is to have the Holy Spirit, something that we have when we are "born of the Spirit", born-again. This is when, where and how salvation is effected in us, when we are born of the Spirit through faith. It is only AFTER we are born-again (I truly prefer the use of the word "re-generated" simply because "born-again" has developed a different connotation these days) that we can "work out" our salvation in obedience to God's will in doing the work that He has prepared for us to do. Saul failed, because although he was annointed as king, he didn't have the faith that brought about salvation. Frankly, Saul didn't sin any more or less than David sinned. The difference between Saul and David was that Saul always stood in rebellion against God, not having faith, and David, through faith, was humbled and obiedient to God, even in the midst of his sins.

If Saul was following God with the humble obedience of David, ANY work he did would be accepted and his sin forgiven. That’s what I meant by ANY work of love, faith or obedience to the teachings of Christ is accepted by God. Works of love, faith and obedience to Christ are NOT works of the law. This is where I am misunderstood most often. Also, a person can do works of love, faith and obedience to Christ and not be born again. Works of love, faith and obedience to Christ are accepted by God. Being born again occurs by God’s discretion, and not by man’s will. Can you show me where a man must be born again BEFORE he can please God?
(caps only for emphasis, btw)

quote by handy:
Again, I'll point to Ephesians 2:8-10 because I believe that it delinates the process pretty much as it happens: Because of God's grace we are saved. We receive this saving grace via faith from the Spirit. This happens first. It is clearly stated just so that there will be NO MISUNDERSTANDING that we are NOT saved on the basis of our works, and that no man will have any cause to boast. But, once we are saved, then we need to recognized that we are saved for a purpose, and that purpose is to carry out the works God has prepared for us to do. Failure to follow through on these works is proof that there is no salvation in the first place.

But there IS salvation in the first place…it's the salvation of Jesus dying on the cross for all! When a person fails “to follow through on these works,†they are neglecting that salvation and not going to be saved unless they repent and do the works necessary to attain that salvation given us in Christ.

quote by handy:
Gee, it's late and I've probably only muddied things more than clarified things. (Still reeling over my Bronco's loss to Hawaii I guess.) But I just cannot see how anyone can look at Ephesians 2:8-10 and not see how clear the process of salvation is worked out and what the balance of faith and works is.

Actually, it’s too early here but my mind is clearer this time of day. (Condolences on your Broncos. I don’t have that problem with my Pats. : ) I do have the same problem with understanding how anyone can look at Ephesians 2:8-10 and not see it exactly as I do either. LOL. I guess that’s why our posts are so long. Thanks for your careful reading and explaining what you mean.

 

[unred typo]

Just keep your slingshot ready and bring those giants down with a well placed verse. Apply directly to the forehead. :

That's not bad. Can I use it too?

:-D Sure, Drew. You can also use my 'warped view' if you like. : I'm wondering if you have waded through that last post and if you understand or agree with what I am saying.

 

[handy]

Unred, perhaps we are going around needlessly. I am under the impression that we are of two different opinions of how we attan salvation, but after reading your last post, I'm not so sure.

Let me do this, I'll write up a pithy, step by step summation of how I see salvation being 'worked out', and use the same step by step summation of what I believe you to be saying. This way we can zero in on where we either differ or are misunderstanding each other. (Way too boring to just sit around agreeing with each other! :-D )

Dora's View of how Salvation is worked out:

1: Jesus died on the cross to cleanse me, me personally, Dora Miller, from the effects of sin. Yes, He did so for everyone else as well, but it is a personal thing, not a general act upon His part.
2: The Holy Spirit reaches out to me, gracefully opening my mind and heart to receive this truth.
3: I must receive this truth of my own free will. (I do believe that everyone whom the Spirit calls will respond positively, but not because He is irresistable in the way Calvinist teach.)
4: From the moment I respond to the Spirit's grace, then salvation has entered in. I believe firmly that from this moment on, as long as I am walking in the faith that the Spirit freely bestows, I will be saved.
5: Now comes the working out part, the aforementioned "walking in the faith". Once regenerated by the Spirit, I must then start the hard work of walking by the Spirit and remaining in the Spirit. I believe that this is the where the Parable of the Seeds comes in handy. There is the seed (gospel) that is scattered that just drops by the wayside and the bird (Satan) eats it and no life is generated from that seed. There is the seed that life is generated, but then, because of rocky soil, just as quickly withers and dies. There is the seed that is sown into weeds, and grows for a while but then gets choked out. And, then, there is the seed, representative of one who is working out one's salvation, that falls into good fertile soil and begins to yield fruit. Now, I think one thing that would be immediately understandable to Jesus' listeners, is that there really isn't such a thing as soil that is fertile, weed-free and rock free. In order for soil to be able to grow the kind of crops Jesus was talking about, one must chuck out any rocks, do some weeding and watering, tend to the soil.

Boiling it all down, I don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. But, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in us, and as long as we remain willing, He will always help us to remain in Him. But, there can be those who quench the Spirit and do not finish the race. I think the promise to us is that we will finish, but the warning is quite clear from the Scriptures, it is possible that we won't, if we fail to continue to 'work out' our salvation, by allowing weeds to crop up and choke out God's word in us.

There is a ton of Scriptures that I base all this on, and I'm willing to share them if anyone is still reading this "pithy" :crazyeyes: summation.
6: Judgment Day, when our salvation is fulfilled and we are glorified. This is where our works 'prove' our salvation. This is when God affirms that the good works we are doing are proof of the life we recieved by the work of the Spirit.

To me, salvation is life. If there is life, then this is an example of the Holy Spirit giving life. This is the seed that grew. Working out salvation then is nurturing that growth to the point of fruit bearing. In the end, we will all be judged accordingly. Everyone will have works, but are those works indicative of the life the Spirit gave us? Everyone will point out something upon the lines of "Hey, I did this" or "I did that", but are these the works that God set before us to do? There will be those who have cast out demons, prophesied, and even performed miracles, and will be told to depart. Unless these things are proving the life that the Spirit gave us, they accomplish us nothing, they are but filthy rags.

Pithy, yeah, I do that so well.

OK, this is how I see Unred's position:

1: Jesus died on the cross for all manking. This is a general thing, for everyone, not individuals. (I have the impression that you don't hum along with the song, "When He was on the Cross, I was on His Mind".)

2: We either agree with the gospel that the cross secures, then go on to work it out in our own lives, or not.

3: If we agree with the gospel, and do good works of love, faith and obedience, and continue to do them, salvation is secured for us on Judgment Day.

Unless I have this wrong, you do pithy much better than I do.

I'll log off now, and see what your response is. Hopefully, we can better understand where each of us is coming from. I am prepared to defend each of these 'steps' with scriptures, and I know where Romans 2 comes into play as well.

 

[unred typo]

quote by handy:
Unred, perhaps we are going around needlessly. I am under the impression that we are of two different opinions of how we attan salvation, but after reading your last post, I'm not so sure.

Let me do this, I'll write up a pithy, step by step summation of how I see salvation being 'worked out', and use the same step by step summation of what I believe you to be saying. This way we can zero in on where we either differ or are misunderstanding each other. (Way too boring to just sit around agreeing with each other! )

Sure. Whatever. :smt101 I hope you won’t mind if I set them side by side for comparison: :smt023

Dora's View of how Salvation is worked out:
1: Jesus died on the cross to cleanse me, me personally, Dora Miller, from the effects of sin. Yes, He did so for everyone else as well, but it is a personal thing, not a general act upon His part.
Or
Dora's View of unred’s warped view:
1: Jesus died on the cross for all manking. This is a general thing, for everyone, not individuals. (I have the impression that you don't hum along with the song, "When He was on the Cross, I was on His Mind".)
Now unred’s correction:
Right. I find that song unbiblical. You have my view here correct. Except I don’t consider man a king. : This is the part I believe is not of works, lest any man should boast. He died before I was even born, or did any sin and he planned to die for all of mankind before they were created and committed the first sin. When our military men die for their country, they are dying for those they know and love but also for those they will never meet, at least in this lifetime. That doesn’t make their death any less significant for me and you, individually.


Dora's View of how Salvation is worked out:
2: The Holy Spirit reaches out to me, gracefully opening my mind and heart to receive this truth. OR
Dora's View of unred’s warped view:
2: We either agree with the gospel that the cross secures, then go on to work it out in our own lives, or not.
Now unred’s correction:
Right again, more or less. I believe that the Holy Spirit is gracious to all men everywhere, reaching out to them, opening their hearts with the truth, speaking through their consciences, their dreams, and anyway that can be utilized. We are left to make the choice, and no one is going to be unfairly rewarded or condemned because God takes our circumstances into consideration when we are judged.

Dora's View of how Salvation is worked out:
3: I must receive this truth of my own free will. (I do believe that everyone whom the Spirit calls will respond positively, but not because He is irresistable in the way Calvinist teach.)
OR
Dora's View of unred’s warped view:
3: If we agree with the gospel, and do good works of love, faith and obedience, and continue to do them, salvation is secured for us on Judgment Day.
Now unred’s correction:
Right with a little tweaking. Salvation was secured for us on Calvary, but unless we apply ourselves to those teachings of Christ that he has given us, those words of eternal life that he taught, we will not be saved on judgment day.

Dora's View of how Salvation is worked out:
4: From the moment I respond to the Spirit's grace, then salvation has entered in. I believe firmly that from this moment on, as long as I am walking in the faith that the Spirit freely bestows, I will be saved.

Ooops …no 4 for me. This is redundant for me anyway. I have already said that salvation began with the cross. I believe my personal call to follow Christ began with my birth. Until I am old enough to understand right from wrong, I am under grace, though. Jesus lights every man that comes into the world. The Spirit calls all men everywhere to repentance.

quote by handy:
5: Now comes the working out part, the aforementioned "walking in the faith". Once regenerated by the Spirit, I must then start the hard work of walking by the Spirit and remaining in the Spirit. I believe that this is the where the Parable of the Seeds comes in handy. There is the seed (gospel) that is scattered that just drops by the wayside and the bird (Satan) eats it and no life is generated from that seed. There is the seed that life is generated, but then, because of rocky soil, just as quickly withers and dies. There is the seed that is sown into weeds, and grows for a while but then gets choked out. And, then, there is the seed, representative of one who is working out one's salvation, that falls into good fertile soil and begins to yield fruit. Now, I think one thing that would be immediately understandable to Jesus' listeners, is that there really isn't such a thing as soil that is fertile, weed-free and rock free. In order for soil to be able to grow the kind of crops Jesus was talking about, one must chuck out any rocks, do some weeding and watering, tend to the soil.

Not a bad interpretation of the parable. The seed is the word of God. As long as you recognize that the gospel means the entire teachings of Christ and not just a few chapters about his death and resurrection, you might get away with saying gospel in place of seed, but Jesus said the seed was the word of God, so ‘gospel’ is narrowing it by quite a bit. The ‘word’ is everything God says to man and also all that Jesus taught because ‘the word made flesh’ is Jesus. Do you see how changing ‘word’ to ‘gospel’ can change the meaning here? I would expand your thought to say that whenever we hear any of the words of God, it can have a life invigorating effect on our hearts and minds. If it takes root and grows and produces fruit, that fruit will be eternal.

quote by handy:
Boiling it all down, I don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. But, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in us, and as long as we remain willing, He will always help us to remain in Him. But, there can be those who quench the Spirit and do not finish the race. I think the promise to us is that we will finish, but the warning is quite clear from the Scriptures, it is possible that we won't, if we fail to continue to 'work out' our salvation, by allowing weeds to crop up and choke out God's word in us.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

quote by handy:
There is a ton of Scriptures that I base all this on, and I'm willing to share them if anyone is still reading this "pithy" summation.
6: Judgment Day, when our salvation is fulfilled and we are glorified. This is where our works 'prove' our salvation. This is when God affirms that the good works we are doing are proof of the life we recieved by the work of the Spirit.

To me, salvation is life. If there is life, then this is an example of the Holy Spirit giving life. This is the seed that grew. Working out salvation then is nurturing that growth to the point of fruit bearing. In the end, we will all be judged accordingly. Everyone will have works, but are those works indicative of the life the Spirit gave us? Everyone will point out something upon the lines of "Hey, I did this" or "I did that", but are these the works that God set before us to do? There will be those who have cast out demons, prophesied, and even performed miracles, and will be told to depart. Unless these things are proving the life that the Spirit gave us, they accomplish us nothing, they are but filthy rags.

Now you have touched a nerve. There’s that expression again, ‘filthy rags.’ Our good works are either done in sincerity, genuine love and/or obedience to God OR they are insincere, self-serving and deceptive, usually in an attempt to cover up some sin we are guilty of. A sincere act of self sacrificial love done for someone else is pleasing to God, even if it is done by the worst publican and sinner on earth. Don’t minimize the good deeds that are done sincerely, because Jesus said these are wrought in God. God is love and you don’t have to be wearing your born-again, fundamental Bible-believing, Baptist Badge to make God smile when you obey Christ sincerely from your heart.

quote by handy:
Pithy, yeah, I do that so well.

Unless I have this wrong, you do pithy much better than I do.

If it makes you feel any better, I have never been accused of being pithy myself. Notice this didn’t get any pithier when I got ahold of it. :smt042

quote by handy:
I'll log off now, and see what your response is. Hopefully, we can better understand where each of us is coming from. I am prepared to defend each of these 'steps' with scriptures, and I know where Romans 2 comes into play as well.

I don’t need to see your scripture. I know where you got each of your steps. I have walked a few miles in those shoes myself. Now I’d rather go barefoot. The problem I found with your view, which is not so different from mine, yet miles apart, : is that you have made a roadblock in the way of Christ, demanding that everyone pay lip service to your set of doctrines BEFORE they can continue on to heaven. It’s more real than that. It’s written on everyone’s heart and it’s available to all. You don’t have to fetch Jesus from heaven to follow in his ways. His Spirit is with each and every one of us to lead us to do his will. Jew, gentile, African native, Muslim, movie star, rich man, poor man, Indian chief. His ways are easy and his burden is light. Love one another, forgive as you have been forgiven, turn the other cheek, seek not for riches on earth but lay up treasure in heaven. No rules, just right. :-D

 

[handy]

Unred, I wanted to acknowledge that I've read through your post, even though I haven't responded to it. I want to take the time to delve in a bit to make sure that you haven't already clarified some of the questions I have.

Only thing is, not only have I gotten into another discussion regarding the extra-biblical proofs of the rationality of believing in God, our cows decided to go 'free-range' and we had to do a good old-fashioned round-up. So, again, I'm in way too many conversations that I'm incapable of sustaining. Hopefully by Tuesday I can re-visit this thread.

I just can't make out if you're a profound theologian, or just a crazy heretic! : (Maybe you're a little bit of both!

 

[handy]

You don’t have to fetch Jesus from heaven to follow in his ways. His Spirit is with each and every one of us to lead us to do his will. Jew, gentile, African native, Muslim, movie star, rich man, poor man, Indian chief. His ways are easy and his burden is light. Love one another, forgive as you have been forgiven, turn the other cheek, seek not for riches on earth but lay up treasure in heaven. No rules, just right.

Now, you might want to bang your head at this question, but I've read and re-read your post and still have it, so here goes:

Are you saying that anyone, including the Jew, Gentile, African Native, Muslim, etc. need only love one another, forgive as they are forgiven, turn the other cheek and seek not riches in order to be saved?

See, I'm not getting from your post where salvation enters in as far as "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved". Forgive me, if you feel you've gone over this ad nausem, but it really seems as though you are saying that all people who show love and forgiveness to their fellow man, irregardless of who they say Jesus is, will be saved.

If I got this wrong (won't be the first time) and you come back with a "Duh, yeah they gotta believe in Christ" then our theological differences are minimal. But, if you are saying that a "good" Muslim or a "good" pagan can enter into His gates, there is a huge gulf between us.

And, just for the record, I am of the opinion that goodness and morality can be found in Muslims, Jews, Gentile and Indian Chiefs. Christians are not the only one's capable of showing love and forgiveness to their fellow man. However, without being able to say, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" love and forgiveness will not gain one anything.

 

[unred typo]

quote by handy:
Now, you might want to bang your head at this question, but I've read and re-read your post and still have it, so here goes:

Actually, I’m glad to see your question. It shows that you’re not just glazed over and you are really interested in what I’m trying to say. So, thank you for taking the time to read what I have poured my heart into and for not simply dismissing it without checking it against scripture.

quote by handy:
Are you saying that anyone, including the Jew, Gentile, African Native, Muslim, etc. need only love one another, forgive as they are forgiven, turn the other cheek and seek not riches in order to be saved?

See, I'm not getting from your post where salvation enters in as far as "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved". Forgive me, if you feel you've gone over this ad nausem, but it really seems as though you are saying that all people who show love and forgiveness to their fellow man, irregardless of who they say Jesus is, will be saved.

What does ‘believe on the Lord Jesus Christ’ mean to you? When Jesus said “forgive and you shall be forgivenâ€Â, was he just making that up? If you believe that his death, burial and resurrection takes away your sin, but you don’t forgive your fellowman, do you think God will forgive you? Jesus said NO. Do you believe him? Can you believe in Christ but not trust in what he says?

quote by handy:
If I got this wrong (won't be the first time) and you come back with a "Duh, yeah they gotta believe in Christ" then our theological differences are minimal. But, if you are saying that a "good" Muslim or a "good" pagan can enter into His gates, there is a huge gulf between us.

Do you believe that God can speak to a person’s heart? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can convict a person of sin without a human interceding? If a person follows the leading of the Holy Spirit, but has never read about him to know who he is, are they following Christ or are they following a demon? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ means to accept his commands as if they came from God himself, to accept his rule over your life, to follow his teaching and obey him as your Lord and king.

quote by handy:
And, just for the record, I am of the opinion that goodness and morality can be found in Muslims, Jews, Gentile and Indian Chiefs. Christians are not the only one's capable of showing love and forgiveness to their fellow man. However, without being able to say, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" love and forgiveness will not gain one anything.

You know, I don’t believe that Abraham during his lifetime ever made that confession to Christ, nor did “righteous Abel,†nor did Moses, or Jacob or Isaac, or Noah, or a host of others saved by faith. They simply believed God and did what he said to do. Because they believed God and did what he said to do, the blood of Christ will be applied to their sins so that they can be forgiven just as all those after Christ died. If the Holy Spirit says to your heart that you shouldn’t steal or lie or cheat or commit adultery, and you follow him and do what you know is right and good, treating others as you would want them to treat you, you have accepted Christ as your Lord, and you are following Christ in your heart, in the most sincere and basic way that you could. To obey the Spirit in your heart is to obey the gospel.

Here’s a verse you can meditate on:

John 3:20-21 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

What is it that men don’t like about accepting Christ? They don’t mind accepting the free gift of eternal life, they mind the fact that they must accept his rule over them. They will do cartwheels backwards around scripture that makes salvation in any way dependant upon man’s obedience to Christ. Only those who repent and obey are saved.

Does that sound different than to say that “all people who show love and forgiveness to their fellow man, regardless of who they say Jesus is, will be saved?†Can you believe Jesus was just a prophet and still be saved? As long as you take his word as the word of God, you are obeying the gospel, aren’t you? When you think it doesn’t matter if you obey Christ as long as you admit that he was God and he died for your sins, you have it backwards. What matters is that you obey the gospel that Jesus taught. Remember what he said about that? “Why do you call me Lord, and do not the things that I say?â€Â

What if you spend your life avoiding the teaching and commands of Christ? Will you try to tell him that you thought salvation was free so you didn’t have to obey him? On the other hand, let’s say you believed that he was not God, but only God’s son, the express image of God, and you obeyed him because you trusted him and believed in what he said to do in order to be saved. How long will it take him to explain the truth of who he actually is and for you to accept it? Now, if you believed he was God but never put your heart into following and obeying him, how long is it going to take you to make that right? If God is going to judge us by our works, will your works be any different if you believed Jesus was God or God’s only begotten Son? Will your works be any different if you believe that they are not essential to your salvation, or if you believe that they will make the difference of whether you get eternal life or not?

Sorry for the rambling on. I do ‘pithier’ better in the A.M. when my brain is notso fried and scrambled from life’s little aggravations. I do thank God that I don’t have any cattle to round up though!

 

[handy]

I can understand the appeal of your POV, unred. That God would justify everyone who is a 'good' person. The only thing is that I don't think that this is biblical truth.

One thing that came to my mind when reading through your response was that it cannot jive with what Christ said about the gate being narrow. Going by your example, then everyone who forgives others, shows love and mercy and so on is in the narrow gate. This would pretty much include just about everyone except maybe a few psycopaths. Because the truth is, most everyone forgives, loves, shows mercy, and are compassionate, both to those they love as well as to their community. This negates the fact that Jesus said that the gate is narrow and few will find it. Your way is that all Jews, Hindus, Sihks, Pagans, Muslims, Atheists, Pantheists, whatever, who show love and mercy will enter the gate. That would by definition be a fairly broad gate.

Regarding the Old Testament faithful; they were faithful to the true God in the first place. They didn't offer 'strange fire' as it were, nor did they seek after other gods. This is also true of those to whom Christ spoke to, they were of the Jewish faith, those that God called His own. The fact isn't that all who show mercy are God's, but rather not all that call God "Lord" are indeed His. Those in the old testament who came out of the Canaanite background and came into the camp, did so first by a confession of faith in the One True God. For example Rahab, who later went on to be a great-grandmother of Christ, was saved after she confessed, "The Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath." Her good acts of hiding the spies was done because she had already received faith in God. (Josh 2:11)

You have some good insights as to what true religion is. We really haven't been commanded to know Scripture better than anybody else, or show off abilities to be demon-busters, or do miracles a la Benny Hinn. We are commanded to forgive, love, show mercy and compassion, give to the poor instead of hustling what little money they have away from them. It is what true religion is. But, it starts with faith, and the Object of faith must be the true God. I guess I just see a difference between faith (what brings us to salvation) and religion (how we work that salvation out). Unless one is working out salvation based upon faith in the true God, then there really isn't a salvation to be worked out in the first place.

 

[unred typo]

quote by handy on Tue Nov 27, 2007:
I can understand the appeal of your POV, unred. That God would justify everyone who is a 'good' person. The only thing is that I don't think that this is biblical truth.

I wasn’t the one to say everyone who is a good person would be saved, Jesus did. Luke 6:35-37
35But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be you therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and you shall not be judged: condemn not, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and you shall be forgiven:

You see you have a contaminated view because you have had it pounded into your head that no one can be a good person. Only one person can be perfectly good and that is God’s Son, but we all have the capacity to be good, if we choose to be. If we put God ahead of all else, he will help us to be good.

quote by handy:
One thing that came to my mind when reading through your response was that it cannot jive with what Christ said about the gate being narrow. Going by your example, then everyone who forgives others, shows love and mercy and so on is in the narrow gate. This would pretty much include just about everyone except maybe a few psycopaths. Because the truth is, most everyone forgives, loves, shows mercy, and are compassionate, both to those they love as well as to their community. This negates the fact that Jesus said that the gate is narrow and few will find it. Your way is that all Jews, Hindus, Sihks, Pagans, Muslims, Atheists, Pantheists, whatever, who show love and mercy will enter the gate. That would by definition be a fairly broad gate.

LOL. Being a good person is a pretty narrow option. How many people do you know who don’t lie, for instance? Or sow discord between brothers? Or run to watch filthy movies? Having pleasure in unrighteousness is a pretty common pastime these days. How many people do you know turn the other cheek when they are insulted? I wish I was one of them. The tongue is the hardest to tame. Thank God that he forgives. Since I know about the blood of Christ, I ‘find grace to help in time of need,’ but the one who has never heard must get very discouraged trying to live a good life according to his God-given conscience. But it does say that God gives more grace to them.

quote by handy:
Regarding the Old Testament faithful; they were faithful to the true God in the first place. They didn't offer 'strange fire' as it were, nor did they seek after other gods. This is also true of those to whom Christ spoke to, they were of the Jewish faith, those that God called His own. The fact isn't that all who show mercy are God's, but rather not all that call God "Lord" are indeed His. Those in the old testament who came out of the Canaanite background and came into the camp, did so first by a confession of faith in the One True God. For example Rahab, who later went on to be a great-grandmother of Christ, was saved after she confessed, "The Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath." Her good acts of hiding the spies was done because she had already received faith in God. (Josh 2:11)

I agree. Those that “call God “Lord†are not His,†but only those that obey him. Didn’t he say in Luke 6:46 …why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Do you remember what he said to those who called him Lord but were workers of iniquity? “Depart from me.†So, yes, obedience is the key to belonging to the Lord. Isn’t that what I have said all along? Your line of reasoning here is confusing.

quote by handy:
You have some good insights as to what true religion is. We really haven't been commanded to know Scripture better than anybody else, or show off abilities to be demon-busters, or do miracles a la Benny Hinn. We are commanded to forgive, love, show mercy and compassion, give to the poor instead of hustling what little money they have away from them. It is what true religion is. But, it starts with faith, and the Object of faith must be the true God. I guess I just see a difference between faith (what brings us to salvation) and religion (how we work that salvation out). Unless one is working out salvation based upon faith in the true God, then there really isn't a salvation to be worked out in the first place.

I don’t know what you are objecting to. I am saying that when the Holy Spirit ( the true God ) speaks to a person, whether through scripture, or in a dream or through their conscience, or through a missionary or through a pastor or a neighbor or a prophet or a movie or through a billboard sign, however he chooses, if they recognize it as truth and obey it, they are acting in faith in the one true God, not an idol or a demon or false god. If they do this consistently and continue to follow what is right, they will be in effect, following Christ and they will be rewarded with eternal life. I don’t think this will ever be a common occurrence, so you can rest assured that Jesus was not wrong when he said, “few there be that find it,ââ¬Â although I believe he was speaking about that particular time, and the times leading up to that time, not all times.