Obama decries Quran-burning, violent responses

[Hitch]

Hitch,

Do you actually KNOW any Muslims? Have you any actual knowledge of the Muslim faith?

1. No 2. Yes

Kiwi do you actually know any of the muslims involved in this crime?

Do you know which cleric pushed them to this frenzy?

 

[pjt]

Well, we have to look at the fruit it produced. His actions began a chain of hatred, violence, and murder. He tempted those Muslims to sin.
Spiritually speaking, it may be safe to say that he sinned. (Only God knows his heart). He should have burned the Koran privately. He didn't have to announce it publicly to the world.


.

Okay then when the hoses were turned on the marchers and the bobby sticks were used to beat the people and others were arrested in the marches Martin Luther King lead, then it was Martin Luther King`s fault for tempting the police to do this. It was Martin Luther King that "began the chain of hatred, violence, and murder" because he made a statement that never should have gone public. The blacks should have just stayed in their houses and marched around in their rooms there privately for no one to see. Therefore, it is safe to say all those black people were sinning because they were inciting violence. It was their fault.

The moral of the story is political statements should not be made publically or they are sinful.

 

[AKJVReader]

I think that the burning of the Koran was a wake up call to America and its internal problems with Islam. I mean do people in America want to see Christian Churches demolished and mosques placed on top? Do you want to see Shariah law in a state where Christians are subject to jail because of there beliefs? Do you know that the Koran is full of hatred while the KJV Bible is a book of love? How many Muslims are in the US? I know its a big number. Yes you love your enemies as Jesus said but at the same time you have to be able to recognise what an idol is too. And the Koran is an idol to these Muslims, why say that burning an idol is wrong? please dont say that these Muslims have a right to kill innocent people because some Christian Pastor decided to burn an idol.

 

[kiwimac]

I think that the burning of the Koran was a wake up call to America and its internal problems with Islam. I mean do people in America want to see Christian Churches demolished and mosques placed on top? Do you want to see Shariah law in a state where Christians are subject to jail because of there beliefs? Do you know that the Koran is full of hatred while the KJV Bible is a book of love? How many Muslims are in the US? I know its a big number. Yes you love your enemies as Jesus said but at the same time you have to be able to recognise what an idol is too. And the Koran is an idol to these Muslims, why say that burning an idol is wrong? please dont say that these Muslims have a right to kill innocent people because some Christian Pastor decided to burn an idol.

Why would you think this was even a possibility? If you think there are no hateful passages in the Bible then I suggest that you have never read the OT.

 

[AKJVReader]

I know in the OT that Abraham and David etc went to war and killed people and they were still counted as righteous but remember they could still love people and love God too couldn't they? And of course Jesus being a climax to the Bible is all above love, the NT is full of grace. So the Bible as a whole OT + NT is a book about love. God does not stop loving those He has chosen from Adam to the real Christians today, His Word is therefore with love.

 

[theLords]

Okay then when the hoses were turned on the marchers and the bobby sticks were used to beat the people and others were arrested in the marches Martin Luther King lead, then it was Martin Luther King`s fault for tempting the police to do this. It was Martin Luther King that "began the chain of hatred, violence, and murder" because he made a statement that never should have gone public. The blacks should have just stayed in their houses and marched around in their rooms there privately for no one to see. Therefore, it is safe to say all those black people were sinning because they were inciting violence. It was their fault.

The moral of the story is political statements should not be made publically or they are sinful.

The difference is Martin Luther King and his protesters were not violent. The police were! Had MLK stood in front of a police station and burned a confederate flag or a picture of a white Jesus then he most certainly would have tempted them to sin!

As, MLK sat in his jail cell he wrote about how he didn't have hatred in his heart for the white cop who beat him silly. He spoke about how it was the injustice of the law that was the problem and if there was equality in the law for all human then he would never be sitting in jail in the first place!

What an amazing display of the love of Christ. MLK, Jr. is a hero.

Let's look at the fruit in MLK's life: love, patience (longsuffering), kindness, gentleness, peace. What chain reaction did he set off? Equality for all human beings, praise God!

You're comparing apples and oranges here. MLK suffered and died a martyr for the cause of equality, but his suffering was not in vain, Christ turned his beauty for ashes.

There is no positive outcome here when it comes to the Muslims who protested. Their blind hatred caused them to murder innocent non-Christian Americans, and each other!

If someone burned the Bible would that cause you to want to hear about their religion? Why would someone burning the Koran want to make any Muslim hear the Gospel? What's more important our rights under the American Constitution or bring a lost soul to know Christ? This pastor has done nothing but push Muslims away from the gospel of Christ, and this is worth lamenting over.

 

[matt633]

Why are you trying to defend the Koran? So burning a Koran is going to make Muslims not believe the Bible? Do you really believe the Koran speaks truth in some places? A little leaven leavens the whole lump. These Muslims need to find out what is wrong with there Koran and what the Bible says to them.

It has nothing to do with the content of the Koran, yet has everything to do with the spirit behind burning the Koran and the resulting backlash.

<SUP>4</SUP>(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 2 Corinthians 10:4 (King James Version)


Remember that GOD so loved the world (The whole entire world, not just the christian religious world) that he gave his only begotten Son for it. Furthermore as Christ IS, so should we be in this World.

<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30622>

<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30620>16</SUP>And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30621>17</SUP>Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30622>18</SUP>There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30623>19</SUP>We love him, because he first loved us.
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30624>20</SUP>If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? <SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30625>21</SUP>And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
</SUP>1 John 4:16-18 (King James Version)

 

[Drew]

Why are you trying to defend the Koran?

I never defended the Koran, beyond raising the possiblity that it may contain some truth.

So burning a Koran is going to make Muslims not believe the Bible?

I believe that burning the Koran will be a negative factor in trying to bring the gospel message to Muslims.

Do you really believe the Koran speaks truth in some places?

Never read it, so I don't know. Obviously, it is possible that it does.

 

[matt633]

The difference is Martin Luther King and his protesters were not violent. The police were! Had MLK stood in front of a police station and burned a confederate flag or a picture of a white Jesus then he most certainly would have tempted them to sin!

As, MLK sat in his jail cell he wrote about how he didn't have hatred in his heart for the white cop who beat him silly. He spoke about how it was the injustice of the law that was the problem and if there was equality in the law for all human then he would never be sitting in jail in the first place!

What an amazing display of the love of Christ. MLK, Jr. is a hero.

Let's look at the fruit in MLK's life: love, patience (longsuffering), kindness, gentleness, peace. What chain reaction did he set off? Equality for all human beings, praise God!

You're comparing apples and oranges here. MLK suffered and died a martyr for the cause of equality, but his suffering was not in vain, Christ turned his beauty for ashes.

There is no positive outcome here when it comes to the Muslims who protested. Their blind hatred caused them to murder innocent non-Christian Americans, and each other!

If someone burned the Bible would that cause you to want to hear about their religion? Why would someone burning the Koran want to make any Muslim hear the Gospel? What's more important our rights under the American Constitution or bring a lost soul to know Christ? This pastor has done nothing but push Muslims away from the gospel of Christ, and this is worth lamenting over.

It's been recently said that ~12,000 muslims around the world have been turning to Christ each day. This is a result of the demonstration of Love, which is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Carnal religious zealotry has only produced fear, hate, destruction, and a whole array of confusion from what I've seen. Perhaps some of you out there have observed and experienced differently.

 

[matt633]

I know in the OT that Abraham and David etc went to war and killed people and they were still counted as righteous but remember they could still love people and love God too couldn't they? And of course Jesus being a climax to the Bible is all above love, the NT is full of grace. So the Bible as a whole OT + NT is a book about love. God does not stop loving those He has chosen from Adam to the real Christians today, His Word is therefore with love.

David was commanded by God to war. Abram went to war to retrieve his nephew Lot.
The Jews of his day wanted a King that would over throw the Romans and revive the throne of David. However, Jesus demonstrated love and taught that our father wishes that all people would be saved. And, as He is, so should we be in this world.

 

[Drew]

Why would you think this was even a possibility? If you think there are no hateful passages in the Bible then I suggest that you have never read the OT.

Well, yes, but a qualiied yes. It is certainly clear that, in the Old Testament, God is represented as ordering acts of genocide. So Christians need to be careful about criticizing the Koran simply because (if this is actually the case) the Koran also puts the Muslim Deity in the role of a promoter of violence. What's good for the goose...

However, and as I have argued in a number of other threads, I believe a case can be made, within the overall Biblical story, that these acts of genocides were "necessary" in service of a greater good. Analogy: When a doctor pumps a cancer victim full of toxic chemotherapy drugs, this appears to be an act of cruelty. But it is something the doctor needs to do in pursuit of the greater good of the patient. I suggest that God was placed in the same position by Adam's fall - He effectively had no choice but to order these genocides. And there is a detailed argument behind this that I could put forward if anyone is interested.

I cannot speak to Koran in this respect - I have no idea whether or not the Koran advocates violence.

But your point is well-taken - the Bible does indeed place God in the position of advocating violence in some circumstances.

 

[Sam21]

I don't believe this. Those martyrs would weep in sorrow to know that a fellow follower of Christ showed such hatred towards an entire people group by publicly stating and then burning their holy book. It's a matter of respect for your neighbor. Christ commanded us that we love our neighbor, and this Florida pastor failed. Those Christian martyrs in Pakistan and Afganistan gave their lives so that those people groups could know Christ.

I don't agree with the fact that Obama condemns a man for outwardly expressing his constitutional right, and ignoring the fact that 9 people were murdered because some book was burned. (Especially when Muslims burn and desecrate the truly Holy Bible.)

Hatred begets hatred. This is why we are called to love. "Our battle is not against flesh and blood but the rulers of this earth." If that pastor purely hates the false religion of Islam for ensnaring good people in it's prison, then he should be spending every waking second in prayer for the Muslim people. Through Christ, and only through Christ, he can defeat the enemy!

If a Muslim burned a Bible, would that turn you towards Islam or away from it?

Distorted view, the Koran is NOT holy, read it(I have a copy)it is a demonic book designed to send people to hell(as a christian you should know that?). The christians in Acts rejoiced over the burning of demonic books so I would hardly think the saints would weep over the burning of a demonic book that leds people into hell. Also,nine people were not murdered because someone in America burned a book, nine people were killed because people believe a book that tells them to murder those who disagree with them.

 

[pjt]

The difference is Martin Luther King and his protesters were not violent. The police were! Had MLK stood in front of a police station and burned a confederate flag or a picture of a white Jesus then he most certainly would have tempted them to sin!

As, MLK sat in his jail cell he wrote about how he didn't have hatred in his heart for the white cop who beat him silly. He spoke about how it was the injustice of the law that was the problem and if there was equality in the law for all human then he would never be sitting in jail in the first place!

What an amazing display of the love of Christ. MLK, Jr. is a hero.

Let's look at the fruit in MLK's life: love, patience (longsuffering), kindness, gentleness, peace. What chain reaction did he set off? Equality for all human beings, praise God!

You're comparing apples and oranges here. MLK suffered and died a martyr for the cause of equality, but his suffering was not in vain, Christ turned his beauty for ashes.

There is no positive outcome here when it comes to the Muslims who protested. Their blind hatred caused them to murder innocent non-Christian Americans, and each other!

If someone burned the Bible would that cause you to want to hear about their religion? Why would someone burning the Koran want to make any Muslim hear the Gospel? What's more important our rights under the American Constitution or bring a lost soul to know Christ? This pastor has done nothing but push Muslims away from the gospel of Christ, and this is worth lamenting over.

The pastor that burned the koran was not violent either. He simply burned his personal property as a statement not to muslims for their sake, but for Americans and Christians. It was a statement to his own people. I am sure if he wanted to witness to a muslim, he would not do it by burning a koran. This was his wake-up statement to his people whom he probably felt were asleep to the realities and dangers of islam in relation to America.

I agree with you that MLK was not violent but the police were. But if you use that line of thinking, then you have to agree that this pastor also was not violent, but the muslims are. However, if you conclude the pastor incited the violence, then you have to likewise conclude MLK incited violence by disturbing the peace with his very politically incorrect marches. He did not burn anything, but he did cost citizens a lot of money with the extra police, secret service and his people disturbed traffic with their masses so he actually did much more damage and disturbance than the pastor.

"What chain reaction did he set off? Equality for all human beings, praise God!"

Well, actually the initial chain reaction was a lot of violence, injustice and even murder. It was not a "hallelujah, praise God!" moment at first. It was long bitter hurt and hardship before equality really came about. But eventually his message resonated with people, but not initially. It took his death, and years to pass by before it was really appreciated. Initially the message he was sending was rejected and disdained, just as this pastor`s message is being rejected and disdained by many. And just as the message of prophets in the Bible were rejected and disdained. Who knows, one day this pastor`s message might resonate and have more meaning. This pastor obviously felt the message he wanted to deliver was important enough that he was willing to risk his life to deliver it. He had already had death threats, but he wanted to deliever a message. MLK also had death threats but he felt his message was important enough that he too was willing to lay down his life to deliver it. Actually their messages are not that different. Both of their messages were about awakening sleepy people to the cruelties of one group towards another, and how society should guard against and stop this.

 

[Free]

Distorted view, the Koran is NOT holy, read it(I have a copy)it is a demonic book designed to send people to hell(as a christian you should know that?). The christians in Acts rejoiced over the burning of demonic books so I would hardly think the saints would weep over the burning of a demonic book that leds people into hell.

Notice what happened in Acts 19:

11 And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul proclaims." 14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this. 15 But the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?" 16 And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all the residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks. And fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled. 18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices. 19 And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So the word of the Lord continued to increase and prevail mightily. (ESV)

There is a world of difference. First there was a display of the power of God which showed the people who the real God was. This brought the fear of God on them and then, in their conviction, they brought their books and burned them.

Had the Christians gone there and grabbed their books and started burning them, they would surely have suffered the same fate as these recent nine.

We are commanded to preach the gospel in love, not to go burning others' holy books or smash idols, temples, etc. What the pastor did was wrong and he will be held accountable. The Christian Church should stand up and denounce this act.

Also,nine people were not murdered because someone in America burned a book, nine people were killed because people believe a book that tells them to murder those who disagree with them.

If thier book says that, then the pastor does bear at least some responsibility. It doesn't mater what you think about the Koran, it matters what they think about them.

 

[matt633]

Distorted view, the Koran is NOT holy, read it(I have a copy)it is a demonic book designed to send people to hell(as a christian you should know that?). The christians in Acts rejoiced over the burning of demonic books so I would hardly think the saints would weep over the burning of a demonic book that leds people into hell.

The disciples in Acts rejoiced over the burning of demonic books as a declaration of their deliverence from demonic captivity.

If this were a case of a muslim or group of muslims burning Korans as a declaration of their new birth in Christ this would be an act of praise and reason to rejoice. We fight from victory, not for victory.

 

[Lewis]

I want instead of Obama decrying one book that was burnt to decry the many churches, Christian homes, and Bibles that are continually burnt by muslims. And more than that the Christians who are beaten, enslaved, or killed by muslims on a daily basis. Yet, he is silent on these things.

Muslims Have Always Persecuted Christians
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills.htm

The Quran says kill Christians
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills.htm#kill
Allah is a false God.

Allah: the False god of Islam - a Construct of Mohammed

Focus On Jerusalem, Library

Mohammed a prophet like Moses ? I should think not.
Oh How I Love Jesus

Allah the moon God
ALLAH, the Moon God

Myth #3 - Allah is the Same as the God of the Bible

http://biblicalstudies.qldwide.net.au/allah_god.html

Mohammed a false prophet
http://www.creationapologetics.org/edit ... ammed.html

Exposing Satanisim
What is wrong with Islam?

 

[kiwimac]

Distorted view, the Koran is NOT holy, read it(I have a copy)it is a demonic book designed to send people to hell(as a christian you should know that?). The christians in Acts rejoiced over the burning of demonic books so I would hardly think the saints would weep over the burning of a demonic book that leds people into hell. Also,nine people were not murdered because someone in America burned a book, nine people were killed because people believe a book that tells them to murder those who disagree with them.

Heiferdust. I too have read the Qur'an. Your view is, IMO, distorted and incorrect. Moreover those people died because some idiot in the US couldn't, just COULD NOT, stop and think for 50 seconds about the possible consequences of his actions to others.

 

[Hitch]

Heiferdust. I too have read the Qur'an. Your view is, IMO, distorted and incorrect. Moreover those people died because some idiot in the US couldn't, just COULD NOT, stop and think for 50 seconds about the possible consequences of his actions to others.

Not counting Afghanistahn's allow welcoming terrorist training camps, after all what are a few thousand armed trained terrorist compared to some clown burning a book?

 

[Hitch]

I don't believe this. Those martyrs would weep in sorrow to know that a fellow follower of Christ showed such hatred towards an entire people group by publicly stating and then burning their holy book. It's a matter of respect for your neighbor. Christ commanded us that we love our neighbor, and this Florida pastor failed. Those Christian martyrs in Pakistan and Afganistan gave their lives so that those people groups could know Christ.

I don't agree with the fact that Obama condemns a man for outwardly expressing his constitutional right, and ignoring the fact that 9 people were murdered because some book was burned. (Especially when Muslims burn and desecrate the truly Holy Bible.)

Hatred begets hatred. This is why we are called to love. "Our battle is not against flesh and blood but the rulers of this earth." If that pastor purely hates the false religion of Islam for ensnaring good people in it's prison, then he should be spending every waking second in prayer for the Muslim people. Through Christ, and only through Christ, he can defeat the enemy!

If a Muslim burned a Bible, would that turn you towards Islam or away from it?

In reality martyrs cry out for vengeance.R6;10

 

[kiwimac]

Not counting Afghanistahn's allow welcoming terrorist training camps, after all what are a few thousand armed trained terrorist compared to some clown burning a book?

Most of which camps were founded and funded by the US when the USSR invaded Afghanistan.