Bible Study "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

[serapha]

(Satan's first Lie)

(Satan's first Lie)


Hi there!

:smt039

I've been thinking about this statement from the very first posting, and you know... I don't believe that you have a clear understanding of satan....

His first lie occurred way before any conversation with Eve in the Garden. His first lie was to himself, and it was in believing that the creation could be as great or greater than the Creator.


That's why he was booted out of heaven, cast down to earth.... "pride"...

he lied to himself.


Just thought I would add that thought.

~serapha~

 

[Jay T]

Re: Ephesians 2:8-9

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The correct understanding of this Bible verse is understood, by the Bible's definition, of the words: grace, and faith.
# 1.) Grace is, God's power to obey....
"By whom we have [received grace].....for obedience .....to the faith, among all nations, for his name", (Romans 1:5).

How dare you leave parts of that verse out in order to make it say what you want. here's what it really says:

You accuse me, of the same thing, that Jesus Christ did, himself ?

[quote:b4964]"Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith."

it says that becasue we have grace, we can call others to obedience. In no way does that state that grace is obedience. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us waht grace is: "a gift of God, not of works" Obedience is a work, grace is from God. You just tried to redefine the word in the very verse that defines it.

I agree, obedience is works, but who's works ?
Also, if we are not workers with God......grace, is in VAIN !
"We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain", (2 Corinthians 6:1)

# 2.) FAITH:
"So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)...meaning faith comes from Bible study alone !

So now, let's look at Ephesians again, with the correct Bible definitions in mind.
Ephesians 2:8 means.....For by obedience (grace) are you saved through what you study in the Bible (faith), and that not of yourselves, it grace is the gift of God...that no man should boast"

rmns 10:17 isn't defining faith, it is telling us how we come about having faith. If you want a definition of faith, look at Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. "

So now plug those definitions into Eph 2:8-9, and you have

By the free gift of God we are saved through believing but not seeing...

[/quote:b4964]And where does works, fit in ?

 

[element80]

Re: Ephesians 2:8-9

[quote="Jay T"a1dc]

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The correct understanding of this Bible verse is understood, by the Bible's definition, of the words: grace, and faith.
# 1.) Grace is, God's power to obey....
"By whom we have [received grace].....for obedience .....to the faith, among all nations, for his name", (Romans 1:5).

How dare you leave parts of that verse out in order to make it say what you want. here's what it really says:

You accuse me, of the same thing, that Jesus Christ did, himself ?[/quotea1dc]

clarify please

"Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith."

it says that becasue we have grace, we can call others to obedience. In no way does that state that grace is obedience. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us waht grace is: "a gift of God, not of works" Obedience is a work, grace is from God. You just tried to redefine the word in the very verse that defines it.

I agree, obedience is works, but who's works ?
Also, if we are not workers with God......grace, is in VAIN !
"We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain", (2 Corinthians 6:1)

I agree, grace without works is in vain, but that doesn't mean you lose grace

[quote="Jay T"a1dc] # 2.) FAITH:
"So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)...meaning faith comes from Bible study alone !

So now, let's look at Ephesians again, with the correct Bible definitions in mind.
Ephesians 2:8 means.....For by obedience (grace) are you saved through what you study in the Bible (faith), and that not of yourselves, it grace is the gift of God...that no man should boast"

rmns 10:17 isn't defining faith, it is telling us how we come about having faith. If you want a definition of faith, look at Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. "

So now plug those definitions into Eph 2:8-9, and you have

By the free gift of God we are saved through believing but not seeing...

And where does works, fit in ?[/quotea1dc]

it says in the verse, "it is a gift from God, not of works"

 

[AVBunyan]

Most vital doctrine

I still don't think OSAS matters if you are loving God with all your heart soul and mind, but it is a good issue to discuss if it can be done peacefully.[/color]

Personally - I believe it to be one of the most vital doctrines to get settled. I believe it really matters for what one believes about OSAS ultimately detrmines their view of Christ and of what took place at Calvary.

And, yes, you are right - the issue should be disccssed in a Christian-like manner.

God bless

 

[Free]

I don't believe in OSAS for the following reasons:

Acts 20:30, "and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

1 Tim. 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,"

2 Pet. 2:20-21, "20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."

2 Pet. 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,"

That one is to be on guard and watchful for false prophets is throughout the NT. Why the warning to stand firm in the faith and be alert if the doctrine of OSAS is true?

 

[element80]

I don't believe in OSAS for the following reasons:

Acts 20:30, "and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

This doesn't mean that they are losing their salvation, it just means that poepe are leading them astray with false doctrine. It does not say that because of this, the are no longer a child of God

1 Tim. 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,"

Again, this does not say they will lose their salvation. If you read further, the verse mentions that these decievers will teach them that they must abstain from certain types of food, and cannot marry. This suggests that they aren't converting to a different religion, they are just placing their faith in the distorted teachings of thses men, rather then the freedom they experience through God.

2 Pet. 2:20-21, "20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."

I think these verses mean thet God would rather have us not accept Him at all, than to do so and go back to our sinful lifestyles. I don't think that this means they are no longer saved

2 Pet. 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,"

That one is to be on guard and watchful for false prophets is throughout the NT. Why the warning to stand firm in the faith and be alert if the doctrine of OSAS is true?

Becasue God doesn't want us to live horrible lives after we accept Him, he wants us to honor Him with our lives.

 

[destiny]

.

Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. (Luke 8:13)


And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive "Many" and because iniquity shall abound, the LOVE of "Many" shall wax cold. But he that "Endure" shall be saved." (Matthew 24:9-13)

Salvation includes accepting strength from Gods hand to lift us when we fall and continuing to do so until we reach the goal. We have the God given right to reject the leading hand at any point along the way.

 

[Jay T]

Re: Most vital doctrine

I still don't think OSAS matters if you are loving God with all your heart soul and mind, but it is a good issue to discuss if it can be done peacefully.[/color]

Personally - I believe it to be one of the most vital doctrines to get settled. I believe it really matters for what one believes about OSAS ultimately detrmines their view of Christ and of what took place at Calvary.

God bless

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !

The lesson that should have been learned by the Christian world, thru the sad experience of Adam and Eve, has been very much ignored.

Had Adam and Eve had OSAS.....Jesus Christ would never, have had to die on Calvary.

They had 'immortal life', until they committed a very, small, sin.

The danger of OSAS, is the thought, they men may commit some small sin, and still get into heaven, having immortal life.

 

[element80]

Re: Most vital doctrine

[quote="Brutus/HisCatalyst":b4892]
I still don't think OSAS matters if you are loving God with all your heart soul and mind, but it is a good issue to discuss if it can be done peacefully.[/color]

Personally - I believe it to be one of the most vital doctrines to get settled. I believe it really matters for what one believes about OSAS ultimately detrmines their view of Christ and of what took place at Calvary.

God bless

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !

The lesson that should have been learned by the Christian world, thru the sad experience of Adam and Eve, has been very much ignored.

Had Adam and Eve had OSAS.....Jesus Christ would never, have had to die on Calvary.

They had 'immortal life', until they committed a very, small, sin.

The danger of OSAS, is the thought, they men may commit some small sin, and still get into heaven, having immortal life.[/quote:b4892]

You can't use adam and eve as an argument, because they couldn't have salvation in the senes we are talking about. We are dealing wth the slavation that we recieve by accepting Christ as our savior.

Whad do you mean when you say "The danger of OSAS, is the thought, they men may commit some small sin, and still get into heaven..."? Are you suggesting that once you are saved, you will lose your salvation if you commit even the smallest of sins? You treat salvation as if it is something we can earn. It isn't. Nothing we can say or do will ever get us to the point where we deserve salvation, yet God, by His grace, gives it to us anyway.

 

[destiny]

The danger of OSAS, is the thought, they men may commit some small sin, and still get into heaven, having immortal life.

Actually thats not even the argumant for those of us who don't believe in OSAV.
In fact that can destroy our argument.
The fact is we can commit small sins and still get into heaven, so long as we have the blood of Jesus covering our sins and we haven't turned His grace into a license for immorality.
We all fall short and sometimes we need grace abounding in our lives because of our own humanity.
It's when we turn away from God and make our unrepented sins a lifestyle again that the question of OSAS comes in.

 

[Jay T]

Re: Most vital doctrine

You can't use adam and eve as an argument, because they couldn't have salvation in the senes we are talking about. We are dealing wth the slavation that we recieve by accepting Christ as our savior.

Do you understand that there is no salvation, while comitting any known sin(s) ?

Whad do you mean when you say "The danger of OSAS, is the thought, they men may commit some small sin, and still get into heaven..."? Are you suggesting that once you are saved, you will lose your salvation if you commit even the smallest of sins? You treat salvation as if it is something we can earn. It isn't. Nothing we can say or do will ever get us to the point where we deserve salvation, yet God, by His grace, gives it to us anyway.

Do you understand that there is a part, that the human agent plays, in their own salvation ?
Consider thsis Bible verse, very carefully:
Phillipains 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always [obeyed], not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [work out] your own salvation with fear and trembling".
And grace....plays that part:
Romans 1:5 "By whom we have [received grace] and apostleship, [for obedience] to the faith among all nations, for his name"

 

[element80]

What do you mean that there is no salvation while comminting any known sins? If that were the case, then we would all lose our salvation on a daily basis. Are you suggesting that once we are saved, we are required to be perfect? When we accept Christ, that decision is our righteousness. At that moment, God sees us as pure, not matter what we have done/will do.

Phil. 2:12 tells us to work out our salvation, but it doesn't say we will lose it if we don't.

Remember, we are saved by grace, which is a gift of God, not of works (Eph. 2:8-9)

 

[Jay T]

What do you mean that there is no salvation while comminting any known sins?

1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

If that were the case, then we would all lose our salvation on a daily basis. Are you suggesting that once we are saved, we are required to be perfect?

Revelation 14:4,5....."These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were [redeemed] from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are [without fault] before the throne of God".

Rev. 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

People who keep all 10 commandments of God are perfect, because they are not committing any sins.

When we accept Christ, that decision is our righteousness. At that moment, God sees us as pure, not matter what we have done/will do.

Once Saved, Always Saved, Huh ?
Are you EVER in for a SHOCK.....come the Day of God's Judgment !!!

Phil. 2:12 tells us to work out our salvation, but it doesn't say we will lose it if we don't.

No, but this does......
Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
***********************************************************
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
*************************************************************
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
*************************************************************
Ect...Ect....Ect...Ect....

Remember, we are saved by grace, which is a gift of God, not of works (Eph. 2:8-9)

And, you are saying that grace, allows you break God's commandments....to steal....committ adultery...kill ?

 

[element80]

There has been a lot of speculation over the meaning of those verses in first John. I honestly do nt know what they mean, but I don't think it means Christians no longer sin.

Also, take a look at this passage:

1 Cor 3:10-15

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

The foundation is the new life we have throguh Christ. Once that foundation is built (we accept Christ) we begin to build upon it. If we are serving God, then e build with gold, silver, and costly stones. If we live life the way we want, we build with wood, hay, and straw. At death, our work is tested by fire. If it survives, we are rewared (the corwns we recieve in heaven). If it doesn't survive, we recieve no reward, but because of the stong foundation, we are still spared eternal damnation.

 

[element80]

A thought just occured to me: Jay T, you think that every time you sin, you lose your salvation and must reaccept Chrst, right? What happens if you happen to sin, and then end up dying before you have re-accepted Christ. Maybe in a fit of anger, you say something bad to a freind as you're walking along the street, and then, in that same fit of anger, you accidently step out in front of a moving car. Does that mean you are going to hell?

 

[Judy]

Quote:
Revelation 14:4,5....."These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were [redeemed] from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are [without fault] before the throne of God".

Rev. 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

People who keep all 10 commandments of God are perfect, because they are not committing any sins.

Jay T, those verses are talking about the 144,000 "Jews". Look at verse 1 in that chapter! and if you also look at Revelation 7:1-8 it will identify who they are.. They are 12,000 from each tribes of the children of Israel.

• Revelation 14:1. Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.[/*:m:64425]

• Revelation 7
  
  1. After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
  2. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
  3. saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.''
  4. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
  5. of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
  6. of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
  7. of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
  8. of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. [/*:m:64425]

 

[Jay T]

A thought just occured to me: Jay T, you think that every time you sin, you lose your salvation and must reaccept Chrst, right?

Sin, separates a person from God.......
Isaiah 59:2 "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear".

I mean, how many times did Adam and Eve sin, to be separated from Christ's personal presence ?

And, the Apostle Paul understod the need, for the renewing power of God every day.....
1 Corinthians 15:31 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily"

What happens if you happen to sin, and then end up dying before you have re-accepted Christ. Maybe in a fit of anger, you say something bad to a freind as you're walking along the street, and then, in that same fit of anger, you accidently step out in front of a moving car. Does that mean you are going to hell?

I don't believe so.
I believe it is the general direction, a saved(?) person goes that qualifies one, for heaven or hell.

Adam and Eve lost their immortal life, because of their sin.....but they were given another chance for eternal life, thru faith in Jesus Christ.
They had learned their lesson, on the consequences of sin....which if not given up leads to eternal death (Romans 6:23)

 

[element80]

and what about 1 Cor. 3:10-15?

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Most vital doctrine

You can't use adam and eve as an argument, because they couldn't have salvation in the senes we are talking about. We are dealing wth the slavation that we recieve by accepting Christ as our savior.

Are you suggesting that once you are saved, you will lose your salvation if you commit even the smallest of sins? You treat salvation as if it is something we can earn.

Thanks element - I was going to respond and then I read yours...why respond now - you said it very well - There will be the usual responses and low and behold an ole favorite (verse out of context) showed up;

JT says:
Phillipains 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always [obeyed], not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [work out] your own salvation with fear and trembling".

When will people learn to look at the verses surrounding the verses they pull out tof context - read the next verse:

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God does the work anyway - unreal that folks can't see these things - but then again - I can understand why they can't :-?

God bless[/quote]

 

[Khristeeanos]

and what about 1 Cor. 3:10-15?

Such an intrepretation surely allows for a license to sin! (Jude 3-4)