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Imagican said:
Scorpia,

While I WILL agree that NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE with God. There are certainly rules that He exists by too. We may NOT know what they are, but that they exist, (even if CREATED BY HIM), is without doubt. For instance, is God capable of lying?
Definitely, God is capable of lying and I testify to all that I received this teaching from the Lord God himself who even told us that "if you yourself who are only My created beings are capable of lying, how much more is your Lord God who is your creator? I your Lord God can do all things and nothing is impossible with your Lord God who is the Almighty God of all." I know this is shocking to some but this is the reality with God to whom where all things emanate.

By the way Imagician, from whom/to whom or with whom did you learn that God is incapable of lying?
 
Scorpia wrote: Definitely, God is capable of lying and I testify to all that I received this teaching from the Lord God himself who even told us that "if you yourself who are only My created beings are capable of lying, how much more is your Lord God who is your creator? I your Lord God can do all things and nothing is impossible with your Lord God who is the Almighty God of all." I know this is shocking to some but this is the reality with God to whom where all things emanate.
[/S]

So was he lying when he had these things written:

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Titus 1:1
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Hebrews 6:18
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

1 John 2:21
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.



John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

:o Can we really trust a liar? :o

Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
 
scorpia said:
If you believe all things are possible with God and that nothing is impossible with God, then it follows that it is possible for God to make ANOTHER GOD EQUAL TO HIMSELF
destiny said:
A creature can never be equal to the creator ....it's impossible.



scorpia said:
It's impossible, to whom? Don't forget that the statement to which you addressed your post is based on "IF" and it is not a sweeping one. However, is it impossible for God to create another God equal to Him in any manner of His own existence? Would that be so, then there would now be something impossible to God and the statement "nothing is impossible with God" would not be a REALITY anymore. But I do maintain my belief that nothing is impossible with God.
Definition of Original: being something from which a copy, a translation, or the like is made: The original document is in Washington.
A primary form or type from which varieties are derived.

Can there be more than one original? Two 'originals' is impossible.
 
destiny said:
I would like to thank these people in no particular order because they have all brought up very good points..
Lovely, Destiny, Vic, Cybershark, Lewis, Johnthebaptist,D46,MR Versatile, Gabbylittleangel, Stovebolts, and of course my Good friend Solo..
I missed this earlier, jgredline. Thanks ....even though I give you guys a hard time sometimes, I still appreciate what you have to say and realize your contribution to the forum as a whole is crucial at times with all the "stuff" going on here in the "name" of God.
Solo, I didn't see your post in the anti-Christ topic and hope you know I wasn't jumping on you. That bothered me a bit....I was actually jumping jgredline and JTB. :lol:
Anyway ...I think i'll bow out of the God head topic now. Y'all have fun.
Destiny,
Please do not bow out of any of the discussions that interest you. I understand your position and see you clearly as a dear sister in Jesus Christ. I have never taken any offense at any of your remarks, and I respect you as a child of God.
God bless you and yours,
Michael
 
Who is the Saviour? God? Jesus? Were the prophets correct in their prophesies? Were the Apostles correct in their prophesies?

Who is the Savior in the following verses of scripture?


And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Luke 1:47

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: Acts 13:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Ephesians 5:23

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Philippians 3:20

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 1 Timothy 1:1

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1 Timothy 2:3

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Timothy 1:10

But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Titus 1:3

To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. Titus 2:10

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Titus 3:4

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:6

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 2 Peter 3:2

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:18

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:25

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. 13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Isaiah 43:10-13

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Isaiah 45:21

And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isaiah 49:26

Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isaiah 60:16
 
unred, destiny, j, thank you guys for your offerings. Each has offered valid understanding concerning this topic.

First God CANNOT LIE. It is SIMPLY AGAINST His VERY NATURE. Satan IS the FATHER OF LIES for this is GIVEN us through The Word. If the FATHER, then lies were NOT created by God but by the FATHER OF LIES, SATAN. This is 'simple' understanding and ANYONE that believes that 'their god' offered that he CAN lie, it is NOT the 'same' God that I follow. Which is a point that this thread is ALL about. Different gods vs the ONE TRUE GOD.

j, you have offered valid argument defending your belief. Valid but not completely accurate from MY understanding. You state that for Christ to have offered the attonement that He HAD to BE God. Why? I have found NOTHING in the Word that states such a view. I have listened to discussion and debate by those that offer this, but I have NOT found this to be offered by God or His Son OR THE APOSTLES chosen to record such information. It simply DOESN'T exist.

Now, if you were to offer that through the creation of Christ that this was accomplished, on THAT I would be much more likely to agree, but that Christ HAD to BE God in order to offer what He did, you have NO scriptural PROOF of ANY such thing.

Since the 'cat's out of the bag' sort of, I guess there's is little purpose in answering any of my questions or persuing that direction any longer. Although I believe that an understanding of the points that I attempted to make ARE needed in order to have an understanding of ANYTHING having to do with God Himself. Oh well. Perhaps I can still offer the details as we move along. And I say this generally, for this thread was NOT started with an attempt to discredit 'trinity' so much as to edify those without a solid an UNDERSTANDING of WHAT AND WHO GOD IS, with something a little more FOUNDATIONAL.

Ok J, since you feel ten foot tall and bullet proof, let me ask you, what exactly are these verses saying to YOU:

Romans 5:1-21

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

And you say that these TWO are the same? That Jesus Christ IS God? I find if difficult to understand this. For the ONLY difference between Christ and US is that He was flesh AND Spirit, thus allowing Him to OVERCOME the flesh THROUGH The Spirit. This we have been TOLD without a doubt in a sentance that states it. We have the Word describing the Spirit descending upon Christ and EVEN a voice from heaven stating WHAT? 'this IS my belove Son in whom 'I' am WELL PLEASED'. What a farce if in fact Jesus Christ IS God. Why would this statement have EVEN been made except to decieve those that accept Christ AS The Son of God rather than God Himself? Christ being baptized and a voice from heaven stating THIS; THIS IS MY BELOVE SON...........' What a deceptive God those have that believe that this is NOT true but that the man standing before them that HEARD this voice was NOT simply the Son of God BUT GOD HIMSELF. MAN, that's DECEPTIVE my friends. That would be like me being part of a robbery where there was a murder and me placing the gun that I used to shoot someone in my partners pocket and then when we get caught stating that HE is the killer for the gun is in HIS pocket. Why such deception, my friends? Why would that voice from heaven NOT have stated the EXACT truth and that being, 'I am your God in the flesh and have come to save the world'? Because that WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE TRUTH. God did NOT decieve us nor did He LIE to us. He offered us the TRUTH, 'This IS my beloved Son in whom I AM WELL PLEASED'. That IS the TRUTH. And I CAN'T emphasize the 'I' enough here. For to state that Jesus IS God is to say that God was saying, 'THIS IS MYSELF IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED'. God, pleased with Himself and 'bragging' about it? I hardly think so.

So, you see, j, I don't think you were really ready for this argument. From the standpoint that is offered by those that believe Jesus IS God, we are ALL God. NOT TRUE. We are all a PART of God for He IS our creator and the creator of LIFE. The difference is the POWER that He bestowed upon His Son. The information bestowed upon His Son, the LIFE that He gave, allowed us to take, and then RESTORED to HIS SON. Christ IS the 'firstborn of EVERY creature'. NO, not the first 'born again'. Sorry but this is FALSE teaching. Taken OUT of context in order to TRY and prove something that CAN'T be proven. What I offer IS FACT. What I offer is the Word of God. Not the 'way I WANT' it, but the WAY it is offered. The FIRSTBORN of EVERY creature means EXACTLY what is stated. That BEFORE there was ANY creature created CHRIST was BORN. For we KNOW that Christ was ELEMENTAL throughout creation as WE KNOW IT. Christ WAS/IS the Son of God well 'before' the creation of mankind. WE were CREATED FOR Christ. He WILL one day be THE KING OF THIS EARTH. And WHEN He IS King of this EARTH, God will STILL be in heaven with His angels.

This mystical God that has been 'added' to Christ or this mystical Christ that has been 'added' to God is a 'man-made' understanding that is NOT Biblical. Biblically, Christ IS the SON OF GOD. God IS THE FATHER OF CHRIST. That IS Biblical. That IS what we have been offered through The Word. And that there is ONLY ONE GOD HAS BEEN REVEALED TO US. NO, NOT A THREE HEADED GOD. NO, not a 'triune' God. For this WORD DOES NOT EVEN EXIST IN THE WORD. NO WHERE.

So, shall we continue to discuss the 'different gods' and what man chooses to worship 'instead of' the ONE TRUE GOD?

Otherwise, PLEASE explain to me WHY God would call Christ HIS SON, Why Christ would CLAIM to be The Son of God and that God IS His FATHER, and WHY the apostles recognized and wrote to us that Christ IS the Son of God, and that God IS the FATHER of Christ. And WHY NONE Of THESE stated PLAINLY that Christ IS GOD.

Should be an EASY task IF 'this IS the 'TRUTH'.

MEC
 
Mec
Well, While I don't feel 10 feet tall, I do feel 6 feet tall with a good understanding of the scriptures. I am going to enjoy teaching you and others who would want to learn atleast a part of the book of Romans.. Happens to be one of my favorites. Now I will leave you with a few thoughts tonight as I will work on my rebuttle tomarrow.

first) When you devide the book of Romans in three parts, it works out perfectly to cover the works of the trinity. It covers the LAW (GOD) The Cross, justification, Grace. (Jesus) and finishes with Christian living and restoration (The works of the Holy Spirit)

To get more exact Chapters 5 through 8 covers GOD (law), Jesus (Sanctification and union through Christ), Holy Spirit (The Holy Spirit delivers us from the old nature to the new)

Is this a coincedance? NO.

Secondly) I am not going to fall into the snare of taking single verses out on context.. That will NOT work with me as it might with others. We will look at the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD from Gen to Rev as the Apostle paul gave instruction. This means that you will have to explain away Christophanies (Theophanies), Disprove the trinity, and explain what Jesus means when He says he is the I AM....

Acts 20:26-31
26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

The OT is a Picture of the NT...

Now. In saying this I can Assure you that already you are going to have problems with the first Verse of the Bible.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

In ch. 1 the focus is on the creation of the material world-the heavens and the earth. God: This standard Hebrew term for deity, Elohim, is in the form called the plural of majesty or the plural of intensity, it is a plural noun used with a singular subject.. In contrast to the ordinary plural (gods), this plural means "the fullness of deity" or "God-very God." Even though the word for God is plural, the verb for created is singular. It means "to fashion anew." This oft-used word in the Bible always has God as its subject. Does this make sense. There is more to come.


Thanks for the reply. I will address your post in more detail tomarrow.
Blessings,
Javier
 
Imagican said:
First God CANNOT LIE. It is SIMPLY AGAINST His VERY NATURE. Satan IS the FATHER OF LIES for this is GIVEN us through The Word. If the FATHER, then lies were NOT created by God but by the FATHER OF LIES, SATAN. This is 'simple' understanding and ANYONE that believes that 'their god' offered that he CAN lie, it is NOT the 'same' God that I follow. Which is a point that this thread is ALL about. Different gods vs the ONE TRUE GOD.


MEC

Since you have spoken that "God CANNOT LIE", (and I agree that God does not lie), perhaps you could answer my above post where God says, "there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me", and in the inspired words of God's Apostles they state over and over that Jesus is Lord God and Saviour.

Since God does not lie, why do you disagree with him that He is the one and only Saviour? The scripture says very plainly that God is the Saviour and Redeemer. It also speaks of and Jesus is the Saviour. Jesus is God according to the scriptures through and through.

If Jesus is God (which I know he is from the scriptures), what lie would satan make up to deceive those on this earth? He would say that Jesus is not God, and then make up a bunch of wild eyed concoctions that fit this lie. The scriptures are plain to those who know the one true God, for the one true God has revealed the truths to those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Isaiah 43:11-12

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Isaiah 45:21

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2 Peter 3:18

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Titus 3:4
 
Who is the saviour?

A local company is a family business. The father founded the company, is the majority shareholder and managing director. His vision was to provide a vitally needed product for the community as well as employment for as many as he was able. This man has a son and from the outset the father involved his son in all aspects of the business. At a certain time the father announced that his son would take over the running of the company and he was duly given the position of general manager.

Now the father has given authority to the son over the entire operation. Of course the father maintains ownership and it pleases him that the son does exactly as he requires. Whoever the father wants to employ is employed, and he tells the son about this one or that one, so that when they arrive they are given a job straight away.

Those that are given jobs are so grateful that this opportunity has been given them by the kindness of the son that they call him their saviour because he has saved them from the dole queue. And then the son tells them that it is his father that has created this opportunity and he was only doing the bidding of his father. So the employee, now with understanding says, “you are my saviour because you were obedient to your father and your father is also my saviour because he made it all possibleâ€Â.
 
mutzrein said:
Who is the saviour?

A local company is a family business. The father founded the company, is the majority shareholder and managing director. His vision was to provide a vitally needed product for the community as well as employment for as many as he was able. This man has a son and from the outset the father involved his son in all aspects of the business. At a certain time the father announced that his son would take over the running of the company and he was duly given the position of general manager.

Now the father has given authority to the son over the entire operation. Of course the father maintains ownership and it pleases him that the son does exactly as he requires. Whoever the father wants to employ is employed, and he tells the son about this one or that one, so that when they arrive they are given a job straight away.

Those that are given jobs are so grateful that this opportunity has been given them by the kindness of the son that they call him their saviour because he has saved them from the dole queue. And then the son tells them that it is his father that has created this opportunity and he was only doing the bidding of his father. So the employee, now with understanding says, “you are my saviour because you were obedient to your father and your father is also my saviour because he made it all possibleâ€Â.
That is quite a stretch compared to the truth that Jesus is God Almighty as the scripture shows. You really ought to read every scripture word for word without the taint of your bias. You will be surprised at the salvation that is available to you, and you will wonder where these truths have been hidden all of these years. If you are serious about who the Saviour is, perhaps you could explain the verses of scripture that I have posted showing that God is the one and only saviour and that beside him there is no other, as well as the Apostles and eye-witnesses to Jesus crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension record of Jesus being God. If not, I suspect that your doctrine is more important than truth to you.

I truly would like to see you become a saved brother in Christ Jesus Mutzrein. May God bless you and remove the blinders that the enemy has placed on your understanding so that you may become a saved member of the body of Christ. In the name of Jesus. Amen.
 
jgredline said:
Mec
Well, While I don't feel 10 feet tall, I do feel 6 feet tall with a good understanding of the scriptures. I am going to enjoy teaching you and others who would want to learn atleast a part of the book of Romans.. Happens to be one of my favorites. Now I will leave you with a few thoughts tonight as I will work on my rebuttle tomarrow.

first) When you devide the book of Romans in three parts, it works out perfectly to cover the works of the trinity. It covers the LAW (GOD) The Cross, justification, Grace. (Jesus) and finishes with Christian living and restoration (The works of the Holy Spirit)

To get more exact Chapters 5 through 8 covers GOD (law), Jesus (Sanctification and union through Christ), Holy Spirit (The Holy Spirit delivers us from the old nature to the new)

Is this a coincedance? NO.

Secondly) I am not going to fall into the snare of taking single verses out on context.. That will NOT work with me as it might with others. We will look at the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD from Gen to Rev as the Apostle paul gave instruction. This means that you will have to explain away Christophanies (Theophanies), Disprove the trinity, and explain what Jesus means when He says he is the I AM....

Acts 20:26-31
26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

1 Cor 10:11
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

The OT is a Picture of the NT...

Now. In saying this I can Assure you that already you are going to have problems with the first Verse of the Bible.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

In ch. 1 the focus is on the creation of the material world-the heavens and the earth. God: This standard Hebrew term for deity, Elohim, is in the form called the plural of majesty or the plural of intensity, it is a plural noun used with a singular subject.. In contrast to the ordinary plural (gods), this plural means "the fullness of deity" or "God-very God." Even though the word for God is plural, the verb for created is singular. It means "to fashion anew." This oft-used word in the Bible always has God as its subject. Does this make sense. There is more to come.


Thanks for the reply. I will address your post in more detail tomarrow.
Blessings,
Javier
 
Solo said:
That is quite a stretch compared to the truth that Jesus is God Almighty as the scripture shows. You really ought to read every scripture word for word without the taint of your bias. You will be surprised at the salvation that is available to you, and you will wonder where these truths have been hidden all of these years. If you are serious about who the Saviour is, perhaps you could explain the verses of scripture that I have posted showing that God is the one and only saviour and that beside him there is no other, as well as the Apostles and eye-witnesses to Jesus crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension record of Jesus being God. If not, I suspect that your doctrine is more important than truth to you.

I truly would like to see you become a saved brother in Christ Jesus Mutzrein. May God bless you and remove the blinders that the enemy has placed on your understanding so that you may become a saved member of the body of Christ. In the name of Jesus. Amen.

Amen and Amen!!!
 
Solo – I have a passion for truth. No doctrine of man or deception of the devil will dissuade me from what God has placed within me. I have no doubt at all that on a certain day many years ago, I was born of the Spirit of God. It was just me and God. No altar call, no moving music but the presence of the living God bathing every bit of me within and without. Yes there is absolutely not even a shadow of doubt that the Spirit of God dwells within me.

From that moment to this, every element of my life has changed.
Whereas once I was dead, now I am alive in Christ.
Whereas once I knew no love, now I know the love of and for my Heavenly Father.
Whereas once I was a sinner, I know I have been redeemed by the precious lamb of God.
Whereas once the flesh had dominion, now I walk, not after the flesh, but in the Spirit of the living God.

For anyone – especially those who themselves claim to have a relationship with God – to even question whether I am born again, is to question the righteousness of the living God which has been imputed to man, through the gift of faith.

So, if you want to claim that righteousness is achieved by accepting a doctrine that you say is necessary for salvation, then I want no part of it. In fact the concept that this is promoted within Christendom astounds me.
And I will not grovel in the putrid muck of self righteousness, accepting a doctrine of man which he claims must be accepted in order that he may know God.
 
JG - how is it that you too believe that I am not born again? Do you also believe that righteousness is imputed because one accepts a certain doctrine?
 
mutzrein said:
Solo – I have a passion for truth. No doctrine of man or deception of the devil will dissuade me from what God has placed within me. I have no doubt at all that on a certain day many years ago, I was born of the Spirit of God. It was just me and God. No altar call, no moving music but the presence of the living God bathing every bit of me within and without. Yes there is absolutely not even a shadow of doubt that the Spirit of God dwells within me.

From that moment to this, every element of my life has changed.
Whereas once I was dead, now I am alive in Christ.
Whereas once I knew no love, now I know the love of and for my Heavenly Father.
Whereas once I was a sinner, I know I have been redeemed by the precious lamb of God.
Whereas once the flesh had dominion, now I walk, not after the flesh, but in the Spirit of the living God.

For anyone – especially those who themselves claim to have a relationship with God – to even question whether I am born again, is to question the righteousness of the living God which has been imputed to man, through the gift of faith.

So, if you want to claim that righteousness is achieved by accepting a doctrine that you say is necessary for salvation, then I want no part of it. In fact the concept that this is promoted within Christendom astounds me.
And I will not grovel in the putrid muck of self righteousness, accepting a doctrine of man which he claims must be accepted in order that he may know God.

Mutz...you and I don't see eye to eye on several things...but I will say "Well put".....on this matter....
 
mutzrein said:
Solo – I have a passion for truth. No doctrine of man or deception of the devil will dissuade me from what God has placed within me. I have no doubt at all that on a certain day many years ago, I was born of the Spirit of God. It was just me and God. No altar call, no moving music but the presence of the living God bathing every bit of me within and without. Yes there is absolutely not even a shadow of doubt that the Spirit of God dwells within me.

From that moment to this, every element of my life has changed.
Whereas once I was dead, now I am alive in Christ.
Whereas once I knew no love, now I know the love of and for my Heavenly Father.
Whereas once I was a sinner, I know I have been redeemed by the precious lamb of God.
Whereas once the flesh had dominion, now I walk, not after the flesh, but in the Spirit of the living God.

For anyone – especially those who themselves claim to have a relationship with God – to even question whether I am born again, is to question the righteousness of the living God which has been imputed to man, through the gift of faith.

So, if you want to claim that righteousness is achieved by accepting a doctrine that you say is necessary for salvation, then I want no part of it. In fact the concept that this is promoted within Christendom astounds me.
And I will not grovel in the putrid muck of self righteousness, accepting a doctrine of man which he claims must be accepted in order that he may know God.

Many will come to Jesus one day and say, "Lord, Lord, we have done many wonderful things in your name. Jesus tells them to depart from him, that they are workers of iniquity, and that He NEVER knew them. They were never born again, even though they called Jesus Lord.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23

Perhaps your intentions on this board were for a personal unspecified reason, but perhaps the Lord wanted to show you his truth. Perhaps he knew your doctrinal hangups, and knew that you would have to be broken down instead of being coddled. Perhaps the things that occur within one person's life are not by accident. Jesus Christ is God Almighty and He has shown you that in His scriptures many, many times. You do not turn your back on man's doctrines, but you turn your back on God's Word. The scriptures say to examine yourself as to whether you are in the faith or not. Is God dwelling in you since your born again experience, or is it another spirit of unbelief?

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2 Corinthians 13:4-5

Knowing Jesus as God is not a doctrine necessary for salvation, it is an evidence that one knows God the Father and God the Son after having been born again. Many scriptures have been given on this board that shows that Jesus is God, but the self-righteousness and pride of some have clouded their vision, blinding them from obvious truths.

Don't "grovel in the putrid muck of self righteousness, accepting a doctrine of man", but instead dance in the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ knowing that an Almighty God would take on the flesh of mankind and die in his place in order to have fellowship with him now and forever more.

Doctrine means teaching, and is from the Greek word tranliterated Didache, which comes from the Greek word transliterated Didasko, which means to teach. Here are all of the verses that speak of doctrinal truths in the New Testament. My favorite one is:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16


And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: Matthew 7:28

And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Matthew 22:33

And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes. Mark 1:22

And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. Mark 1:27

And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, Mark 4:2

And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. Mark 11:18

And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, Mark 12:38

And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. Luke 4:32

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. John 7:16

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. John 7:17

The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine. John 18:19

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:42

Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Acts 5:28

Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord. Acts 13:12

And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? Acts 17:19

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Romans 6:17

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Romans 16:17

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1 Corinthians 14:6

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 1 Corinthians 14:26

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Ephesians 4:14

As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 1 Timothy 1:3

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 1 Timothy 1:10

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 1 Timothy 4:6

Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1 Timothy 4:13

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1 Timothy 5:17

Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. 1 Timothy 6:1

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 1 Timothy 6:3

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 2 Timothy 3:10

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 2 Timothy 4:2

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Timothy 4:3

Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Titus 1:9

But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: Titus 2:1

In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Titus 2:7

Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. Titus 2:10

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Hebrews 6:1

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:2

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2 John 1:10
 
Mutz,

Amen, my brother.

Solo,

I would like to offer this also. You make accusations of 'bias'. I had NO understanding of ANYTHING of the nature of God previous to having my 'eye's' OPENED. I had NO thoughts of ANYTHING to do with God or Christ. My point; I have NO bias other than what has been revealed to me.

On the other hand, after MUCH study on this subject, it becomes OBVIOUS that those that have 'accepted trinity' are the ones that must be 'taught' such 'bias' and MUST, of consequence, find a way to 'prove' it.

I need 'prove' nothing other than what has been offered. And that being that Christ IS the Son of God. THIS is NO mystery to me. I fully trust God AND His Son and what they have offered. I need NOT believe that Jesus IS God in order to worship Him as Our Savior. But I do KNOW that God has warned that we are to PLACE NOTHING ABOVE OR EQUAL TO HIM. And that means LITERALLY, NOTHING. Be it another man, a prophet, a cat, dog, wife, son or EVEN THE SON.

We are to pray to God in the 'name of' Our Savior.

And j,

God IS able to GIVE whatever He chooses to WHOMEVER He chooses. That He chose to offer such power to His OBEDIENT Son is NOT for me to question. I DO KNOW THIS though, even though MUCH has been given to Christ, Christ has NOT 'replaced' God. God IS STILL God and His Son is STILL His Son and will be for eternity. And God IS the God of Jesus Christ as well as those that choose to accept The God of Creation.

Guys, if I created a 'robot' and used this 'robot' to create a 'product'. ULTIMATELY, WHO is the creator of the product? I am NOT really comparing Chirst to a 'robot', just trying to 'make a point'.

And the I AM statement offers NOTHING other than the FACT that Christ existed BEFORE Abraham. It does NOT offer that Christ IS God.

But I DO understand folks. I understand that in order to worship Christ AS God one MUST accept that Christ IS God. And for those that chose to DO SO, they spent MUCH time in their attempt to 're-create' Christ. To turn Him into something of their OWN creation so that they could carve statues of Him and bow to these statues while worshiping the Son AS THE FATHER. Now THIS is perfectly clear through the history of those that CREATED this 'Christ IS God' theology, 'trinity'.

So, what I would ask of one that 'accepts trinity'; IS Christ God RIGHT NOW, or does The Son of God sit at the right hand of God as we have been offered through The Word? IS Christ God Himself or The Son of God? When Christ returns again AS OUR KING, will He be The Son of God; King of this Earth, or will He be GOD Himself? For these are pretty important questions in the 'scope' of things.

I am NOT here to offer 'my own' interpretation but that which has been offered. Those that accept 'man-made' doctrine will INSIST that this is NOT so, but I KNOW, in my heart, that what I offer is nothing other than what has been revealed WITHOUT the influence of 'other men' to guide me.

And j, while you offered a brief summary, (which IS quite impressive), of Romans as a 'whole', you completely ignored the question. The question is this; WHAT do the scriptures that I offered 'mean to you' concerning this issue of Christ AS God? I took NOT ONE PIECE of scripture out of context. I offered an ENTIRE CHAPTER on PURPOSE so that no one COULD accuse it of being 'out of context'. I bolded certain words and lines in order to emphasize the WHAT of it's meaning. NOT to offer it 'out of context'. I simply attempted to show that The Word itself offers the distinction between God and His Son. NOT His Son; God.

God offering HIMSELF as Sacrifice? Hardly, my friends, for to offer oneself is a trivial thing compared to offering ONE'S CHILD. And this is EXACTLY why Christ asked His Father to; 'forgive them, for they know NOT what they DO'. And this is EXACTLY why we have the crying out of Our Savior when He found Himself UTTERLY abandoned By God upon the cross; 'My Father, why hath thou forsaken ME'. God forsaking Himself. You gotta really stretch the imagination to alter this into ANYTHING other than what it IS. This IS The Son of God speaking of GOD, His Father.

And as Christ has offered, WE TOO are able to be the sons of God. We too, through Christ, are able to be God's CHILDREN. NO, not THE SON, but A son IS what it's ALL about.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
Mutz,

Amen, my brother.

Solo,

I would like to offer this also. You make accusations of 'bias'. I had NO understanding of ANYTHING of the nature of God previous to having my 'eye's' OPENED. I had NO thoughts of ANYTHING to do with God or Christ. My point; I have NO bias other than what has been revealed to me.

On the other hand, after MUCH study on this subject, it becomes OBVIOUS that those that have 'accepted trinity' are the ones that must be 'taught' such 'bias' and MUST, of consequence, find a way to 'prove' it.

I need 'prove' nothing other than what has been offered. And that being that Christ IS the Son of God. THIS is NO mystery to me. I fully trust God AND His Son and what they have offered. I need NOT believe that Jesus IS God in order to worship Him as Our Savior. But I do KNOW that God has warned that we are to PLACE NOTHING ABOVE OR EQUAL TO HIM. And that means LITERALLY, NOTHING. Be it another man, a prophet, a cat, dog, wife, son or EVEN THE SON.

We are to pray to God in the 'name of' Our Savior.

And j,

God IS able to GIVE whatever He chooses to WHOMEVER He chooses. That He chose to offer such power to His OBEDIENT Son is NOT for me to question. I DO KNOW THIS though, even though MUCH has been given to Christ, Christ has NOT 'replaced' God. God IS STILL God and His Son is STILL His Son and will be for eternity. And God IS the God of Jesus Christ as well as those that choose to accept The God of Creation.

Guys, if I created a 'robot' and used this 'robot' to create a 'product'. ULTIMATELY, WHO is the creator of the product? I am NOT really comparing Chirst to a 'robot', just trying to 'make a point'.

And the I AM statement offers NOTHING other than the FACT that Christ existed BEFORE Abraham. It does NOT offer that Christ IS God.

But I DO understand folks. I understand that in order to worship Christ AS God one MUST accept that Christ IS God. And for those that chose to DO SO, they spent MUCH time in their attempt to 're-create' Christ. To turn Him into something of their OWN creation so that they could carve statues of Him and bow to these statues while worshiping the Son AS THE FATHER. Now THIS is perfectly clear through the history of those that CREATED this 'Christ IS God' theology, 'trinity'.

So, what I would ask of one that 'accepts trinity'; IS Christ God RIGHT NOW, or does The Son of God sit at the right hand of God as we have been offered through The Word? IS Christ God Himself or The Son of God? When Christ returns again AS OUR KING, will He be The Son of God; King of this Earth, or will He be GOD Himself? For these are pretty important questions in the 'scope' of things.

I am NOT here to offer 'my own' interpretation but that which has been offered. Those that accept 'man-made' doctrine will INSIST that this is NOT so, but I KNOW, in my heart, that what I offer is nothing other than what has been revealed WITHOUT the influence of 'other men' to guide me.

And j, while you offered a brief summary, (which IS quite impressive), of Romans as a 'whole', you completely ignored the question. The question is this; WHAT do the scriptures that I offered 'mean to you' concerning this issue of Christ AS God? I took NOT ONE PIECE of scripture out of context. I offered an ENTIRE CHAPTER on PURPOSE so that no one COULD accuse it of being 'out of context'. I bolded certain words and lines in order to emphasize the WHAT of it's meaning. NOT to offer it 'out of context'. I simply attempted to show that The Word itself offers the distinction between God and His Son. NOT His Son; God.

God offering HIMSELF as Sacrifice? Hardly, my friends, for to offer oneself is a trivial thing compared to offering ONE'S CHILD. And this is EXACTLY why Christ asked His Father to; 'forgive them, for they know NOT what they DO'. And this is EXACTLY why we have the crying out of Our Savior when He found Himself UTTERLY abandoned By God upon the cross; 'My Father, why hath thou forsaken ME'. God forsaking Himself. You gotta really stretch the imagination to alter this into ANYTHING other than what it IS. This IS The Son of God speaking of GOD, His Father.

And as Christ has offered, WE TOO are able to be the sons of God. We too, through Christ, are able to be God's CHILDREN. NO, not THE SON, but A son IS what it's ALL about.

MEC
Many worship Jesus but they do not know him; for if they really knew him, they would know that he is Immanuel. Those that are unfortunate and have been taught that Jesus is a created angel named Michael do not get that teaching on their own. They get that teaching from a group or from a spirit other than the body of Jesus Christ of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Saviour, and God says that he is the only Saviour, John says that Jesus is God and all things were created by him, nothing was created except that that which is created by Jesus. No angels were created except Jesus created them. Jesus created satan. Jesus was God in the beginning. I have shown you many times where Jesus is Jehovah God. You do have a bias. It seems to me that your bias is the same bias that the Jehovah Witnesses teach.
 
mutzrein said:
JG - how is it that you too believe that I am not born again? Do you also believe that righteousness is imputed because one accepts a certain doctrine?

Mutz
When we first has this conversation a few months ago, I had never met anyone who believed as both you and Mec do. Oh I had read about it and heard the explanations given. I have had run ins with Mromons, JW, and many mainstream cults. Those mainstream cults are easy to defeat in debates.
When I came across this Forum, it was not at all like many of the other forums where everything is lovey dovey for the most part... Well as I read your posts and mecs post and a few others and I could not comprehend how you can seemingly do and say the right things in regards to Christianity and yet not believe that Jesus is God. To me and I praise God I grew up knowing that Jesus is God from the age of 12. So like the evil one does even to Christians, he put a ''what if'' in head.. Well thats as far as the what if Got we me.. I started to do some Homework and research and started to go through the entire NT and asking lots of questions.

My first question was always. Is it possible to be saved when you don't believe that Jesus is GOD??
What about the person who dies when he is on his death bed and accpets the Salvation that God offers through his Son, but is never taught that Jesus is God? Is this person saved?

I came to the conclusion that the answer to my first question is NO.
The answer to second question is Yes. As I LOOKED DEEPER AND DEEPER INTO your belifs, By seeing how wrong you guys are on this , helped to strengthen my beliefs even more.
There has already been provided many verses that reveal the truth that Jesus is GOD.

When a person becomes Born Again this person receives the Holy Spirit. The third person of the trinity. The Holy Spirit then reaveals truths and among them are that Jesus is God the Son.
1 cor 2:10-16 NKJV
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


Guys, Like I have stated in the past. I do have alot of repect for you guys and agree with you most of the time. This being a Salvation issue, I can't let it go. I prayfully hope that you guys will see and recieve the truth because I/WE care and love you guys and want to see you in the kingdom of God..

Mec
I am not dodging your Romans question. Answers coming up.
I would ask that you explain Gen 1:1 and tell me what that means to you.

Upward and onward.
Javier
 
Many worship Jesus but they do not know him; for if they really knew him, they would know that he is Immanuel. Those that are unfortunate and have been taught that Jesus is a created angel named Michael do not get that teaching on their own. They get that teaching from a group or from a spirit other than the body of Jesus Christ of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Saviour, and God says that he is the only Saviour, John says that Jesus is God and all things were created by him, nothing was created except that that which is created by Jesus. No angels were created except Jesus created them. Jesus created satan. Jesus was God in the beginning. I have shown you many times where Jesus is Jehovah God. You do have a bias. It seems to me that your bias is the same bias that the Jehovah Witnesses teach.
_________________
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25


Solo,

You have NEVER heard me offer that Christ IS AN ANGEL by ANY NAME. Christ IS the Son of God. Not A son, but THE SON. So, please don't indicate that I am offering ANY SUCH NONSENSE. Thank you.

Again, I have NOT accused YOU of 'being a CATHOLIC' simply because you believe in 'trinity', so PLEASE, don't go accusing me of being the 'same' as the JW. I am NOT the 'same' as ANY 'man-made' church. Sorry, but these tactics will NOT work in defense of ANYTHING, for I UTTERLY deny these insinuations. Nada. NOT ME, my friend.

And God IS able to choose WHO represents Him and IS able to offer ANY amount of information or power to WHOMEVER He chooses. So, to say that God is the ONLY Savior so Christ MUST be God is 'weak' at best. For God IS the ONLY Savior in that He offered HIS SON as sacrifice for OUR SINS. That does NOT make Christ God by ANY stretch of the imagination. So, the act of dying WAS performed by Christ yet the Sacrifice was made BY GOD. Christ '
gave up' His life willingly, but it was God that allowed the sacrifice of HIS SON. So, you see, your reasoning is not as solid as you may have previously thought.

The King of any nation IS the ultimate rule. Yet HE IS capable of allowing that which HE CHOOSES to represent HIM. We see that in Egypt, Joseph was allowed ALL BUT The KING HIMSELF to be UNDER HIM, an Hebrew. How? IT WAS the WISH of THE LEADER OF THIS NATION.

Just as EVERYTHING IS UNDER GOD, even His Son. Yet He IS able to bestow ANY amount of authority to This SAME Son. If that be the authority to lay down His life for the sake of mankind, that is CERTAINLY within the realm of God's Power. HE chooses WHO, WHEN and WHERE, NOT us.

And this is 'where' the problem lies, the HEART of the matter at hand. Did God teach us that His Son were HE HIMSELF, or was this decided by men that had their OWN agenda in offering such teaching? I believe that turning Christ into ANYTHING 'other than' what He IS, is to create a false Christ or false God. It's really that simple. No different than carving an 'image' of Christ and bowing to it. Most KNOW that this is a 'false god' and of NO power whatsoever to alter or offer ANYTHING of God.

And Solo, please realize that I AM able to understand without JW's teaching me 'their truth', or Baptist teaching me 'their truth', or Catholics teaching me 'their truth', or Mormons,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, PERIOD. I follow NO denomination other than the doctrine offered through the Word and Spirit. I am affiliated with NO denomination. I recognize that each has it's share of the 'truth', but have found EACH lacking in an 'entire' truth. Only bits and pieces are they able to teach along with a BUNCH of 'man-made' stuff that TAKES away from the 'truth' rather than defining it.

And guys and gals, to even 'think' that there has been NO altering of the 'original writtings' in FAVOR of 'man-made' doctrine is to choose to be ignorant of the 'truth'. Yes, there is ENOUGH in The Word that HAS been preserved, but when we compare the ORIGINAL writtings to the KJV authorized version of the Bible, we DEFINITELY see that much has been altered in favor of doctrine that was NOT originally offered. That is the nature of ANYONE that wishes to interpret ANYTHING. It is interpreted or translated according to the understanding of the inrerpreter.. But, for the sake of this discussion, suffice is to say, that there is NO statement in the Bible that Christ offers that HE IS GOD. Inuendo maybe, but this certainly seems an 'underhanded way' to offer 'truth' concerning ANYTHING. My God IS a God of LOVE, NOT deception. My Savior, Jesus Christ, (the LAMB OFFERED), is His Son. Full of the SAME LOVE that the Father IS.

And let us NOT forget EXACTLY what was offered when Christ's followers asked Him HOW we should pray, 'Our FATHER, who ART in heaven...........THY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.......... FOR THINE IS THE KINGDOM, POWER, AND GLORY FOR EVER. This offered from the mouth of Christ Himself. Nothing in this offers that we are to PRAY TO HIM. Kind of FUNNY, huh? I mean funny not in a ha ha sort of way, but funny as in STRANGE.

And PLEASE note that this is CHRIST praying. He offers quite plainly, OUR FATHER. not just His Father but OUR FATHER. The Father of man and of Christ Himself.

Now, considering we KNOW WHO THE FATHER IS, we have here Christ offering that Our God IS His God as well. For His Father IS Our Father as well. And who IS God? God IS The Father of both man AND Christ.

MEC
 
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