Open Discussion on Courtship/Dating...

[Sparkey]

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My youngest (I was a single dad since before he was 3) is now 24 years old with a family of his own (a wife and two sons). He was very sweet, loved to cuddle and was very loving. He never went through that, "Awwww... dad! Not in front of my friends," stage when we would hug. Still, there was one perverse quality that was remarkable. He had a gift for being annoying.

Somehow if he caught on to the fact that something he was doing bothered you, he'd find a way to drive it home. If I tried, "stop it!" he'd modify the behavior in just the right proportion so that he could say, "I stopped," but would continue to pursue the desired result.

Sometimes even today when we're talking about stuff either he or I will occasionally stop and say, "We're doing it again, aren't we?" His two sons though are precious. They really get along well with each other, you can tell they really love each other as brothers. They're respectful of their parents wishes too, and easy to care for when I babysit. Once, I remarked, "What's up with your kids? How did you get the good kids? You didn't deserve them!" He just smiled, agreed, and beamed like the proud father he is.

 

[reba]

Sparrow that was a good read..

 

[Mike]

If it affects me directly, such as what we're talking about here, then yes.


Seriously, why not? And no lame answers

Sparrow had a terrific response to this. Of course, you know I'm not comparing myself or any other parent to God, but we are supposed to be raising our children to depend on Him. When you receive an answer from God, do you require a reason for it, or do you always accept what His answer is and know it's in your best interest?

Often, God says "No" to our petitions, and we don't understand why. We stew on it and grumble. We mope through our lives (sometimes for years) until the day something occurs which puts the whole thing in perspective, showing us that we were better off without it.

Sometimes I don't give a reason, because I know, regardless of what my reason is, it won't be a satisfactory one unless it results in them getting their way. There will always be follow-up questions. They'll want reasons for my reasons. It becomes an argument with me saying, "That's it. I gave you my reason, but it wasn't good enough. It doesn't matter. We're done here, and the answer is no."

"Well this is just stupid! Whatever!!!" (mope, mope, mope)

 

[Nick]

Why should children respect the authority that God gave to their parents over them? Why should they obey God and respect their father and their mother? Seriously? Is that what you're asking here?

If you're saying that you'd like to have a say in your life, well, that's a different matter. But if you believe that children have the right to demand a satisfactory answer to their every question and lacking it, get to do what ever they want? Actually, I don't believe that of you, Nick.

But try arguing with any kid. Don't wait until you get one of your own, just find a niece or nephew and tell them they can't do something they want to do. Then reason with them but stand firm on your decision. Oh, and no "lame" responses either. Make sure that everything you say is perfectly logical and reasonable but let them know the condition that your "the boss of them" only if they agree with you and your reasons are to their complete satisfaction. Let me know how it goes, okay?

My mom once (well, more than once) said, "I hope that when you get older you have a child just like you!" I thought I understood her, but I didn't. Not until much later when I had a child like me.

Sparrow (and Mike),

I'm in no way questioning childrens' need to respect their parents. Nor am I advocating spoilling a child by giving them everything they want.

What I am saying is that, particularly for teenagers, whith whom you can engage in adult conversation, simply not giving reasons, or giving a 'lame' reason for not allowing them to do something really does seem insufficient and almost an insult to their intelligence.

Believe me, I know more than you think. I'm almost 20 and I have helped to raise my 5 year-old brother. So I do know what it's like (to a point) tp parent and deal with a young child. When I tell hijm he can't do this or that, I always try to give age apppropiate non-lame reasons because it helps them understand why and therefore try and see your point of view. I simply cannot fathom why a parent would not give a 'proper' answer to a 15 or 16 year-old . Yes they should respect their parents' wishes, but - I ask this again - whj not give them a proper reason for something that directly affects them? Age and situation-appropriate of course.



More specifically to Mike's post, I think you answered your own question. God is a perfect holy God. Parents are not. Nor are children, I might add.

 

[Nick]

I've always tried to maintain the principle that any child's question deserves an honest, age-appropriate answer.

"Because I said so" is certainly honest (for all children are to obey their parents)....but, I'm willing to concede that it's not age appropriate for teens and young adults.

And that's my point.

 

[Sparkey]

I was in a company that had a downgraded D&B (Dunn and Bradstreet) credit rating. They wanted to achieve an A+ standing but due to poor business practices were downgraded to a B rating. This had a serious effect on their credibility and future business.

It would have been a long haul to have achieved the targeted A+ because that is only given based on performance and it isn't a one day or one month kind of thing.

Children who demand A+ kinds of confidence levels without earning it fail to understand that it takes time and hard work to achieve what they want, not simply the demand. If a kid came to me and wanted to talk about their plan to gradually increase their credibility I'd be all ears! But if, on the other hand, it was just another attempt to put me on the defensive when I knew in my heart that I would be held accountable for the decisions, well... that is indicative of something less than an A+ rating, to me.

 

[Hanna]

Sparrow (and Mike),


What I am saying is that, particularly for teenagers, whith whom you can engage in adult conversation, simply not giving reasons, or giving a 'lame' reason for not allowing them to do something really does seem insufficient and almost an insult to their intelligence.

I simply cannot fathom why a parent would not give a 'proper' answer to a 15 or 16 year-old . Yes they should respect their parents' wishes, but - I ask this again - whj not give them a proper reason for something that directly affects them? Age and situation-appropriate of course.

THIS is what I have been trying to get across to my dad for months now! Ummm...I can not tell you how frustrating it is to hear "I'm sorry but you have to trust me and accept my answer...one day when you are older, you will understand." I'm sorry too but that is a super lame answer! I might be young but my goodness I am not stupid and yah, maybe I can be emotional well because I am a girl and it comes with the program, but I am still capable to understand good logical reasons. I would like to think I am mature enough to accept my parents decisions if they just EXPLAIN logically why they believe what they believe.

WIth regards to courtship and dating...well my dad says we haev brought you up since you were very little to know that "WE" don't date...(we meaning our family believes that courtship is the "proper biblical way")...Oh really...well they WHY...Trust me, you will understand when you are older...15 years olds can't get married so you don't need to date...enough said. UMMM...nooooo..THAT is not enough said...sigh...yes I'm just a little bit frustrated. :

 

[farouk]

You know Hanna, you might try asking your mom and dad if they would be open to chaperoning dates with you and your bf...

This might well be a very good idea, especially when the person is old enough, of course.

 

[Sparkey]

I think you may already understand some of the reasons behind their thinking, for instance, maybe they are afraid. Fear is the more likely cause for concern, not trust or lack of trust. Have you considered going to your parents and asking them how you could demonstrate and prove your integrity by going on excursions with groups of others (both guys and gals)?

If such outings are strictly prohibited (because courtship is the only form of dating that your family allows) I would suggest that you try a different tact completely. Ask if you could go on strictly non-romantic outings of their design (for starters). Basically, you're trying to convince them that all parties are in agreement about the need for you to continue to grow while in the safety of their embrace and while you have the benefit of their wisdom. Sometime between now and the magical age of 18, where you, by act of law, no longer need to conform to their wishes regarding this, is the time to work it out, right?

Point to the fact that you understand their concerns and that you have the same concerns. Young women (young men too) of today have more than enough reason to use care when trying to expand their social options. Give them time to consider what you've said, for instance, don't demand an answer right away but let them know you expect them to take their time to consider what you have said. When you talk to your parents about it, break old habits and don't just say things that have been said before. Maybe count to 10 silently when they don't react like adults (because they might not) and keep your calm. Try to avoid being seen as asking for them to justify their decision and instead let them in on the fact that you're trying to look at things from their perspective.

I am still capable to understand good logical reasons. I would like to think I am mature enough to accept my parents decisions if they just EXPLAIN logically why they believe what they believe.

With regards to courtship and dating...well my dad says we have brought you up since you were very little to know that "WE" don't date...(we meaning our family believes that courtship is the "proper biblical way")...Oh really...well they WHY...Trust me, you will understand when you are older...15 years olds can't get married so you don't need to date...enough said. UMMM...nooooo..THAT is not enough said...sigh...yes I'm just a little bit frustrated. :

Avoid emotional and unprepared responses (although that might be difficult, it really will be seen as your effort to put your best foot forward). Try putting it down in writing and subjecting what you want to say to scrutiny like you were them, for instance, could a "promise to accept decisions," be considered a veiled promise to reject them if there were no satisfactory explanation? How could it be worded to better convey what you really mean, from your heart? Maybe some of what you have said could sound more like a problem than a solution, especially to a parent that struggles with the idea that she won't be here with us for much longer? That's another unstated fear, and it is unreasonable, but parents don't like the idea that their job will be done soon and it won't be long from the time these types of discussions start to the time they end because... well, because you're all too soon gone and on your own. Parents can have conflicting emotions too, and they are not any better prepared (typically) to handle them than you are.

I do believe there is a solution to what you've described here, but that it won't come easy and will take work on both sides to achieve. The tactic that I am suggesting is called 'Negotiation from the Needs of Others," and it requires you to think about their desire to continue to raise in in a manner that will prepare you for the world and not raise you like a "hot-house tomato" and be ill-prepared (overprotected) for what you face. It goes beyond dating issues to money management, social pressures that kids face vs. high parental expectations, teenage health and wellness (including diet), relaxation and rest, managing commitment to school and learning and balancing other wants and needs. Keeping lines of communication open (which is what it sounds to me like you want) is a parent's responsiblity because they do want you to be able to come to them with problems that you face. Clueing them in to the fact that you're aware of such things will only help the situation.

 

[modernnihilst]

THIS is what I have been trying to get across to my dad for months now! Ummm...I can not tell you how frustrating it is to hear "I'm sorry but you have to trust me and accept my answer...one day when you are older, you will understand." I'm sorry too but that is a super lame answer! I might be young but my goodness I am not stupid and yah, maybe I can be emotional well because I am a girl and it comes with the program, but I am still capable to understand good logical reasons. I would like to think I am mature enough to accept my parents decisions if they just EXPLAIN logically why they believe what they believe.

WIth regards to courtship and dating...well my dad says we haev brought you up since you were very little to know that "WE" don't date...(we meaning our family believes that courtship is the "proper biblical way")...Oh really...well they WHY...Trust me, you will understand when you are older...15 years olds can't get married so you don't need to date...enough said. UMMM...nooooo..THAT is not enough said...sigh...yes I'm just a little bit frustrated. :

Like Sparrow suggests try a less than "romantic" outing, say a group of friends going out. If said guy/young lady that you are intrested in is there in said group, it gives you a chance to get to know them in a more safe(Yes I know "they wont try anything".... but hey I watch the news it happens from time to time) enviroment.

As a seasoned geezer I can say without a doubt that the older you get the wiser your parents decisions become. Of course its most likely that they messed up and want you to avoid the same hardships.

 

[Sparkey]

Oh, I thought of something else. I got a lot of experience from my work as a victim's advocate while helping families in trouble. Most of the participants were court ordered but there might be similar settings in your church or community that you and your parents could consider. My work there was merely as a facilitator, meaning that I did my best work when I kept my opinion out of things and just helped each person express their ideas.

The meetings we held were at a Lutheran Church (they were good enough to donate the use of their buildings) but that didn't matter because everybody has an interest in raising healthy kids. Maybe look around and ask your friends for their input, going to your parents with that kind of plan would be impressive, right? It would also really help to avoid the traps that have not worked in the past.

 

[Hanna]

Thanks so much...I'm going to pray on some of that advice and get up the courage to chat with my dad...he's a pastor so sometimes its even harder cuz it feels like everyone is looking at our family to be perfect...:eeeekkk

 

[WIP]

As I read the responses in this thread I seem to be noticing a couple underlying themes that seem to be age specific.

From the older responders I hear, "I've been around the block and I know what's best for you. I don't feel you are quite ready yet to fully understand so I am asking you to trust me that my experience gives me the wisdom to have your best interest in mind."

From the younger responders I hear, "I'm old enough to at least be afforded the dignity to at least hear the explanation behind your experience so I can learn to understand. After all, in just a couple years you will be expecting me to be on my own and make wise choices so please teach me what you know so I am better equipped to make those wise choices."

Perhaps a compromise would be a good place to start?

 

[farouk]

As I read the responses in this thread I seem to be noticing a couple underlying themes that seem to be age specific.

From the older responders I hear, "I've been around the block and I know what's best for you. I don't feel you are quite ready yet to fully understand so I am asking you to trust me that my experience gives me the wisdom to have your best interest in mind."

From the younger responders I hear, "I'm old enough to at least be afforded the dignity to at least hear the explanation behind your experience so I can learn to understand. After all, in just a couple years you will be expecting me to be on my own and make wise choices so please teach me what you know so I am better equipped to make those wise choices."

Perhaps a compromise would be a good place to start?

WIP:

Sounds a good suggestion; what I would add also would be that it's also a question of defining 'older' and 'younger'.

An 18 year old may be deemed to be an adult (more or less!); under-18s living at home with their parents aren't fully adult.

There is also a case for saying that sons and daughters living over their parents' roof, even if over 18, need to respect their wishes, but, yes, coming to some kind of mutual agreement can also be a good idea.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

Often we visit this subject in Parents/Marriage and I know the teens discuss it... I'd like to have an opportunity to discuss the subject here where everyone can weigh in on it.

My husband and I believe in chaperoning our kids when they are with a person of the opposite sex. So far, the issue hasn't come up with our son...he's set to turn 12 in a few... But, our daughter has had one non-dating-but-serious relationship and one boyfriend... not to mention several boys who have come over to spend time with her.

We don't leave her alone with these guys. We do allow for "alone" time... in the sense that if they want to go to a movie or out to eat, we go, but we sit in a different area so that they can talk privately. Also, when at home, if they want to spend time just talking to each other, they can go out on our patio where we can't hear what they are saying, but we can see them. Out of earshot, but not out of sight.

We do indeed plan on keeping this up until they turn 18. There are several reasons for this.

One, we don't plan on allowing either of our kids to be married prior to 18 years of age. Since no relationship prior to that will be of the nature of an engagement, I cannot fathom why they should need to be completely alone with a person of the opposite sex. Now, should either become engaged prior to 18...and there is one young man that we would allow this to happen with our daughter...we would renegotiate this rule with them. However, unless she is engaged (and I can't fathom us allowing her to be engaged with anyone other than the one guy)...I don't see a reason to allow her to be alone with a guy.

We know our daughter, and quite frankly, I think she is now, and will continue to be a very trustworthy person. One evening, she spent all of five minutes on the front porch with a young man, waiting for his mom to pick him up...and in that 5 minutes he propositioned her. She sent him packing and we have never seen him again.

This isn't about not trusting her. It is, to a large extent about not knowing any guy well enough to know if we can trust him. We do trust the one guy, but other than him, we just don't know anyone in her orbit that we know...beyond any shadow of a doubt, that his commitment to stay pure until marriage is stronger than his attraction to her. Both Steve and I...old codgers that we are, know all too well how easily one can get caught up in passion when there is nothing but one's own convictions to put on the breaks. We know how hard this is at 26 and even 36, much less 16. This isn't evil...it's just natural. Sex is what it is, God's beautiful way to create intimacy within marriage and create new human beings. And also...one of the most powerful urges any human has...especially during adolescence.

Our commitment to chaperone her is also about just keeping away from every appearance of evil. Our daughter is quite pretty, looks WAAAYYYY older than 14, and is of the bubbly/vivacious type. She has already been the target of some vicious gossip, but the gossip dried up fairly quickly once several of her friends pointed out that she is never allowed to be alone with a guy. The gossiper was outed as a liar and is now no longer Viola's friend.

It has also been to her benefit... as she learned quickly ...with the 5 minute wonder, as well with a couple of other guys who tried to ditch her chaperone ... that yes, as a matter of fact, some guys (even those claiming to be Christian) really are only wanting her for one thing... and once they find out they can't get it, they move on rapidly. But, on the other hand, she has also had three relationships with three different guys who aren't out to get in her pants. She has learned that if they are willing to put up with the chaperoning, they truly are interested in her.

I don't think she'll be interested in us chaperoning her after she's 18, although we are certainly willing to do so. I do know that by 18, she'll be more mature and more able to handle herself and guys. Naturally, once she is engaged, it would be expected that she and her soon to be husband are together alone. I wouldn't have a problem with it.

But, until then, she is limited to being out of hearing, but never out of sight. She is never allowed PDA's when out in public and she is limited to just hand-holding, sitting together and hugs when at home.

Meanwhile, she is learning to base her relationships on communication rather than just get caught up in the always exciting and always good feeling physical stuff.

She doesn't like it, of course. Admittedly, I wouldn't have myself... But, it's what we're doing, and I think it will benefit her far more than hurt her in the long run. And, once our son gets a lot more interested in girls than he currently is (as of now he's interested, but terrified...) the same rules will be enforced with him. No double standards.

Thoughts?

Seriously, if you need to stalk your children, at 16 you have not done your job. How little trust you show. The bible says to instruct your children in righteousness. Not to dictate rules to them, the follow them on a date. Its very unlikely for two 14 year olds out on a date to the cinema to do anything more than kiss. Its equally unlikely at 16.

Its not for me to tell you how to raise your kids, frankly I dont know why you are asking, this is obvious, they are adults, old enough to move out. Accept their age. If they do go a boy crazy..be there to pick them up when they fall. If you have done your job right then all should turn out well.

 

[Elijah674]

Seriously, if you need to stalk your children, at 16 you have not done your job. How little trust you show. The bible says to instruct your children in righteousness. Not to dictate rules to them, the follow them on a date. Its very unlikely for two 14 year olds out on a date to the cinema to do anything more than kiss. Its equally unlikely at 16.

Its not for me to tell you how to raise your kids, frankly I dont know why you are asking, this is obvious, they are adults, old enough to move out. Accept their age. If they do go a boy crazy..be there to pick them up when they fall. If you have done your job right then all should turn out well.

?????????