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Other Books?

Pard,

Once again you ask a question that relates to principles of canonicity. These so called lost books are not in the Bible because they do not meet the test of canonicity. The Reformation came about for many reasons, but one of them was an interest in Hebrew and Greek manuscripts and a noting of how they were not actually consistent with the Latin Vulgate. Then, an interest grew in just what is the Bible, and Protestants started comparing Catholic tradition on the canon to principles actually found in Scripture.

In debates with Catholics on his theology, in what was essentially a trail, Luther questioned the canonicity of the Apocrapha. This led to a debate on whether these books should be in the Bible, and by the mid 17th century, just about all Protestant churches rejected them. The Anglican Church kept them, as they do other Catholic traditions – but this church seems to be more of a blend of Calvinism and Catholicism, than pure Protestantism -– (a lot could be said about distinguishing Anglicanism, according to its historical origin under Henry the VIII, who wanted actually to be Catholic but also a divorce, and who found combining Catholic rituals which enhance the concept of monarchy with Sola Scripture very convenient -- but yes, I know there are various ways of explaining how the outcome was very good anyway).

Keep in mind, although the Protestants during the Reformation endorsed the concept of Sola Scriptura, it was still difficult to give up a number things, which had been practiced throughout Europe for more than a thousand years and upheld as being part of the foundation of the church. Thus, initially some Protestants, such as Calvinists, put people to death for their religious beliefs, and used Deuteronomy 13 for support, but as debate continued, eventually the theory of denominationalism was developed, with freedom of conscience, assembly, speech, and press – advocated by people and groups such as the independents, dissenters, free willers, the rump Parliament, Quakers, Baptists, Oliver Cromwell, John Milton, Roger Williams..... and many more. Advocating freedom of conscience found its support at first in the NT passages on excommunication.

Two popular books often referenced now on how Protestants establish the canon are, The Canon of Scripture by F. F. Bruce, and A General Introduction to the Bible, Part Two, by Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix. If you go to my web site, I have a link to an article on the subject that attempts to set out the essence of how the canon is established in a very short and understandable format – at least I hope so.
 
dadof10 said:
Mysteryman said:
Hi dadof10

Books were never inspired by God. Scripture was inspired - II Timothy 3:16

And there is no such thing as an inspired Canon.

The so called Canon was allowed by God, but never inspired. The same holds true with the corruptions that have taken place over time. God allows these as well, but never inspires them !

How many times have you ignored these questions? I've lost count. If you can't tell us which parts are corrupt and why, if you can't PROVE YOUR CONTENTION, stop posting the same drivel over and over.

Which parts are corrupt and why? Please give us chapter and verse and the reason for your conclusion.

If you are not qualified to give us the corrections, please just point to someone who is. Thanks.

Hi dad

I have, but you keep ignoring them. So it seems like a problem that you need to deal with.
 
dadof10 said:
Mike said:
PR, I'm not calling you a relativist, please understand that. But this sounds like relativism. While this isn't in the same category as Truth being relative, it still begs the question: Are we to decide on our own what the Inspired Word of God is and what isn't? We can focus on worthy readings to compliment the Bible, but I do believe that we need to be careful in determining this by how we feel personally. I believe there is a stark difference between words that are Inspired and words that aren't.

I guess I'll put this out there if anyone cares to comment. Would you agree that some works are definitely Inspired and some aren't? Do you see a danger in treating books as Inspired when they are not? I do, inasmuch as I rely on the Bible for inerrant Truth and will not place my complete faith in books that aren't.

How are we to know which Books are inspired and which aren't?

I know there is going to be disagreement on which books are Inspired and which aren't, just as different denominations have differences in interpreting scripture. My point was, there are Words that are Inspired, and there are words that aren't. It's not up to us, on our own, to decide which are Inspired for me and for you, and for Tom or Lisa... just as Truth is Truth and isn't determined individually.

dadof10 said:
Books lost. I'm quite certain God would not allow any of His Word to be lost. If it's important to our faith, we have them.

We have them, but do we recognize them as part of the Inspired Canon?

[quote:2u6o1i5q]And I'll further say that the Bible is the complete Word of God to His people. Any teachings that are not in the Bible can not be on the level with It.[/b]

If the Bible is the "complete Word of God", then shouldn't that teaching and the teaching that "any teachings that are not in the Bible can not be on the level with It" be in there, at least explicitly?[/quote:2u6o1i5q]

I realize my wording would lead people to believe I was talking about Catholic Tradition, but I wasn't, and I hope I'm not responsible for this going steep in that direction. I would include ANYTHING that proposes extra-biblical theology or practices. For you or anyone to claim support for something because the Bible is silent on it is not support at all. By the way, I don't take pot-shots at Catholics, and this was not my intention. Rather my :twocents Sorry if it was taken as such.
 
M-Paul said:
Pard,

Once again you ask a question that relates to principles of canonicity. These so called lost books are not in the Bible because they do not meet the test of canonicity.

M-Paul,

1. "Apocrypha" is an incorrect definition of the OT Deuterocanonicals, as they always existed within the LXX, the Bible of Greek Jews and the Apostles while writing NT Scriptures. Sadly, those books got mixed up with other more properly called Apocrypha, such as Enoch.

2. What is "the test of canonicity"???

Are there a set of "rules" that indisputably and "without bias" can provide us with knowledge of the Canon without input from a Church, a community of like-minded religious folk?
 
HisSheep said:
I am thankful to the Roman Catholic Church for preserving/delivering the scriptures to us across the centuries.

That's interesting. But in general, Protestants are thankful to the Jews for the Old Testament, and the Waldensians for the New Testament.
 
M-Paul said:
HisSheep said:
I am thankful to the Roman Catholic Church for preserving/delivering the scriptures to us across the centuries.

That's interesting. But in general, Protestants are thankful to the Jews for the Old Testament, and the Waldensians for the New Testament.

The Apostles were thankful for the LXX, they cite it three times more than the Masoretic text, which was not put to paper for some 800 years after Christ.

The Waldensians??? :biglol

No credible historian traces them to before 1000, their sad attempts to trace themselves to the Apostolic age depends upon forged and altered documents...
 
francisdesales said:
M-Paul said:
Pard,

Once again you ask a question that relates to principles of canonicity. These so called lost books are not in the Bible because they do not meet the test of canonicity.

M-Paul,

1. "Apocrypha" is an incorrect definition of the OT Deuterocanonicals, as they always existed within the LXX, the Bible of Greek Jews and the Apostles while writing NT Scriptures. Sadly, those books got mixed up with other more properly called Apocrypha, such as Enoch.

2. What is "the test of canonicity"???

Are there a set of "rules" that indisputably and "without bias" can provide us with knowledge of the Canon without input from a Church, a community of like-minded religious folk?

Testing, testing. Will this post in the thread.

I'm only going to continue posting, if the software will work. However, the response I lost responded to an incorrect reading of the first post. Hmm... that's good.

So if I use the term everyone uses to references these books, I am not being clear?

The Protestant study of the canon is most extensive. I noted books and an article to try to make it short. The debate has gone on for centuries, and it is the best examination of an issue I know of. I would say its quality is as good as it gets.

The article I referenced sets out the test in short. Of course, trying to make a very long subject short, for the sake of brevity and understanding, has an effect on how its overall quality appears -- but how much time does everyone have? It can be found on the left side of my web site, in a brown box with a white font.
 
francisdesales said:
M-Paul said:
HisSheep said:
I am thankful to the Roman Catholic Church for preserving/delivering the scriptures to us across the centuries.

That's interesting. But in general, Protestants are thankful to the Jews for the Old Testament, and the Waldensians for the New Testament.

The Apostles were thankful for the LXX, they cite it three times more than the Masoretic text, which was not put to paper for some 800 years after Christ.

The Waldensians??? :biglol

No credible historian traces them to before 1000, their sad attempts to trace themselves to the Apostolic age depends upon forged and altered documents...

Thank you for laughing at me. Perhaps, I'll return the favor some time.

Quoting a work is not a principle of canonicity. Many, many secular works are quoted in the Bible. The LXX was quoted because the readers did not know Hebrew but they did know Greek. (Hmm... is this a place to return the favor?)

OK -- no credible historian. Let's start with Waldenses or Voudais: Inhabitants of the Valleys of Peidmont, by Jean Rudolf Peyran. Please set out why he is not credible.
 
Francis,

Since my last post, I've been looking at some books on the Waldensians. The one I cited does not use a manuscript argument but one based on origin of words. Facts and Documents by Maitland, reviews all forged documents, but still finds other documentary evidence by Catholic historians of a very early origin for this group -- it strikes me as the highest level of scholarship. What do you think of Bompiani's work, A Short History, which is stated in the preface as not based on documents?

I'll try to look at some other sources, as I get some more time.
 
M-Paul said:
Quoting a work is not a principle of canonicity. Many, many secular works are quoted in the Bible. The LXX was quoted because the readers did not know Hebrew but they did know Greek. (Hmm... is this a place to return the favor?)

The Apostles wrote Greek letters to people with a Greek set of Scriptures, the LXX, to include what we call the Deuterocanonicals. Later (second century) writers would cite these same works AS Scriptures in the same manner that they cited Isaiah or Jeremiah when making a point. Thus, for the first Christians, there was no problem with seeing Wisdom or Sirach or Tobit as an inspired writing.

Now, as I asked before, maybe if you tell me what IS a "principle of Canonicty", in your opinion, we could proceed.

M-Paul said:
OK -- no credible historian. Let's start with Waldenses or Voudais: Inhabitants of the Valleys of Peidmont, by Jean Rudolf Peyran. Please set out why he is not credible.

He bases his work on the false Protestant assumption...

The claim of its Constantinian origin was for a long time credulously accepted as valid by Protestant historians. In the nineteenth century, however, it became evident to critics that the Waldensian documents had been tampered with. As a result the pretentious claims of the Waldenses to high antiquity were relegated to the realm of fable. The real founder of the sect was a wealthy merchant of Lyons who in the early documents is called Waldes (Waldo).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15527b.htm

Much the same thing is found on WIkipedia, if the above is too Catholic for you...

The Alexandrine La Nòbla Leiçon written in Provençal ("The Noble Lesson"), was thought at one time to have been composed in 1100, but all scholars now date it between 1190 and 1240.[11] Other scholars claimed Claudius, Bishop of Turin (died 840), Berengarius of Tours (died 1088), or other such men preceded Peter Waldo as the founder of the group.[7] In the nineteenth century, however, critics came to the conclusion that the poem and other Waldensian documents offered as proof had been altered.[7] For example, the respected Waldensian scholar Dr. Emilio Comba dismissed the theories related to the ancient origin of the Waldensians in the middle of the 19th century.[7]

Origins in the Middle Ages

According to the Waldense Church and the Waldense Scholarship, the Waldensians started with Peter Waldo, who began to preach on the streets of Lyon in 1177.[1] He was a wealthy merchant and decided to give up all his worldly possessions; he was sick of his own affluence: that he had so much more than those around him.[5] He went through the streets giving his money away and decided to become a wandering preacher who would beg for a living. He began to attract a following. Waldo had a philosophy very similar to Francis of Assisi.[5]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldenses#Ancient_origins_asserted_and_disputed

Primary sources listed within both articles.

Just like the fabled Baptist claim (that even the Baptist website now admits is false) that is now pretty much accepted as false, the idea that a primitive Protestant group existed during the time of Constantine, while no Church historian bothers to mention them, is pretty odd and seen as false. Coupled with the doctoring of historical evidence, we can figure out the motive of these people who are trying to re-write history.

By the way, origin of a word of a place proves nothing about the religious belief that stemmed from there hundreds of years later.

Regards
 
Francis,

Have you demonstrated why the first work I cited is not credible, or why you do not agree with it? Have you demonstrated in refuting this work why you have a basis to laugh at me?

Now, AS I HAVE ASKED YOU BEFORE, please visit the link on my web site. You have a problem with that? I wrote the article myself -- so it probably has to be considered very average.

PS -- acceptance of a work by the early fathers is only one principle of canonicity, and it has to be compared to what all known fathers accepted.

PSS -- so you find Wikipedia the proper example of credible historians??? Is that a basis to laugh at me??

My gosh -- PSS, word origins is evidence. Proof one way or another is another thing. However, if you can establish there are forged manuscripts, that does not mean the case is over. Or do you hold there is no evidence of the RCC being a true church because the Donation of Constantine was forged?
 
Mysteryman said:
dadof10 said:
Mysteryman said:
Hi dadof10

Books were never inspired by God. Scripture was inspired - II Timothy 3:16

And there is no such thing as an inspired Canon.

The so called Canon was allowed by God, but never inspired. The same holds true with the corruptions that have taken place over time. God allows these as well, but never inspires them !

How many times have you ignored these questions? I've lost count. If you can't tell us which parts are corrupt and why, if you can't PROVE YOUR CONTENTION, stop posting the same drivel over and over.

Which parts are corrupt and why? Please give us chapter and verse and the reason for your conclusion.

If you are not qualified to give us the corrections, please just point to someone who is. Thanks.

Hi dad

I have, but you keep ignoring them. So it seems like a problem that you need to deal with.

I don't think you are being forthcoming. Please point me to either the post where my questions are answered or simply cite chapter and verse along with the reasons why you think they are corrupt. If you do, I'll be more than happy to apologize for the "forthcoming" remark. Thanks.
 
M-Paul said:
francisdesales said:
Are there a set of "rules" that indisputably and "without bias" can provide us with knowledge of the Canon without input from a Church, a community of like-minded religious folk?

The article I referenced sets out the test in short. Of course, trying to make a very long subject short, for the sake of brevity and understanding, has an effect on how its overall quality appears -- but how much time does everyone have? It can be found on the left side of my web site, in a brown box with a white font.

OK, I read the site's article, and I find some tired old arguments without much in the way of “rules†to test canonicity. For future reference..., EDIT: Cite address removed at request of site owner.

You point out “thus says the Lord and Jesus recognizing a general division of the OT as your “rules for determining canonâ€. However, “thus says the Lord†does not prove that the Lord said it… Nor does every book of the Hebrew OT have this statement! Hebrew Esther doesn’t even mention God in it! Jesus does not mention the individual books of the “Prophets†and the “Writingsâ€, He only states in general terms the attributes of Scriptures, without providing a list. Perhaps this list included other writings not found in the Hebrew OT, we do not know, and we should not jump to conclusions based upon your anachronistic and circular reasoning.

The NT canon is fraught with danger in following your rules, since most is left out, to include the Gospels… Certainly, mentioning miracles done in Jesus’ name was not enough, since many Gnostic gospels have them, as well… The New Testament utterly relies on a Church’s determination to regard it as Scriptures, since none (except Revelation) are self-authenticating, and only one man verifies Paul’s.

Thus, we do not have a very good groundwork for ‘rules’ that will tell us what the canon is. It appears they are more circular reasoning then axioms used by men on the ground at the time. You begin with “the Hebrew Bible is inspired, nothing elseâ€, and then invent rules to fit that criteria. Obviously, the Apostles did not heed those rules.

Let’s look at some other issues in that article.

We know lexicographically, or in a dictionary sense, what body of writings Jesus upheld as the Word of God, which constitute today the Old Testament (or Hebrew Bible), as the Council of Jamnia (if it was a council, rather than just a review session by Rabbis), around 90 A. D., confirmed as authoritative the books already upheld by tradition.

This is a false statement, not just because of the idea of a “Council†is incorrect, but in that it was confirming books already upheld by tradition. WHOSE TRADITION? The Essenes? The Saduccees? The Ebionites? Jewish Gnostics? The Jews in the Diaspora, who FAR outweighed the Pharisee Jews left after Rome destroyed Jerusalem??? If only Judaism was so monolithic to believe this. In addition, Josephus’ account is hardly believable, stating “as if†there was such a “tradition†from well before 70 AD. Studies of Hebrew writings lead us to believe that the canon was very free flowing until Jerusalem was destroyed. Josephus, writing after the fall, artificially selects the number of books to equal to the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet and STRETCHES to make it fit! No, there was no “solid†tradition on the contents of “The Writings†until Jerusalem was destroyed and the Pharisee school (who would become the rabbis of post Temple Judaism) desired to maintain their own traditions apart from other sects, esp. the Christians, who had already largely separated by then.

What reason should we select the Pharisee group’s OT determination of the canon, as they are condemning Christians in the first century??? Of course, the entire argument is even made sillier when we discover that these same Jews DENIED the holiness of the Christian writings (remember Peter speaking about Paul’s writings?) Thus, it is begging the question to take SOME of the Jewish thinking on SOME of the Bible, and ignore them on the rest. Their opinion on what is from God is null and void, since they did not see the coming of the Christ within their midst.

The Apocrypha, (meaning hidden things, a group of books from about 200 B.C. to 100 A.D., sanctioned as canon by the Roman Catholic Church), does not uphold itself as the Word of God. In fact, at I Maccabees 9:27, written around 120-100 B.C., the prior cessation of the prophets is noted. The Apocrypha was never recognized as canon by Jews in control of the temple. There is no evidence of authorship by a prophet either internally, through confirmation by other Scripture, or by the witness of the Jewish community at the time of authorship.

This is, of course, a circular argument, unsupported by the fact that the Deuterocanonicals (not apocrypha…) were part of the LXX and as part of that work, were considered inspired, even by men such as Philo. Whether the Jews recognized it as canonical is a non-sequitar, as there was no determination of “The Writings†until AFTER the Jews LOST the Temple. No Jew “controlled the Temple†after this determination! The “no evidence of authorship by a prophetâ€, again, is a non-sequitar, since this is not a requirement to be a canonical work, according to you – ESTHER? LAMENTATIONS? Both were still questioned by JEWS a hundred years later. But they now break the rule. Shall we toss them out, as well?

Thus, from the earliest times, Greek speaking Jews regarded the LXX as having the same status as the original Hebrew, but without using scriptural criteria for its authority.

HUGE understatement. As early as the second century, we have men vouching for the inspiration of the works of the Deuterocanonicals, placing them on the same level as the Protocanonicals. To say that “some†were not sure overlooks the fact that the books are called “Deutero†for a reason – it was not unanimously and immediately accepted. But neither was much of the “Writings†of the Hebrew OT. The whole point of developing a canon is that the community comes to a gradual reognition of the contents of Scriptures, and eventually, makes an authoritative determination, whether at “Jamnia†or at Hippo or Trent.

Regards
 
M-Paul said:
Francis,

Have you demonstrated why the first work I cited is not credible, or why you do not agree with it? Have you demonstrated in refuting this work why you have a basis to laugh at me?

I cite two sources, the first, I find reliable, the second, Wikipedia, contains further primary sources. While not an acceptable historical source in of itself, it gives common history made available on the internet where one could continue working. I trust my first source and find the primary sources at Wikipedia sufficient for me, coupled with the fact that I have heard such things before and I don't feel like wasting my time proving them wrong again. I do not feel the need to second-guess modern scholars who detect doctoring of historical records, thanks, and I CERTAINLY am not about to read the entire work you cite!

M-Paul said:
Now, AS I HAVE ASKED YOU BEFORE, please visit the link on my web site. You have a problem with that? I wrote the article myself -- so it probably has to be considered very average.

Done, see last post. I rarely go offsite and expect people to make their arguments here, but for this subject, I made an exception.

M-Paul said:
PS -- acceptance of a work by the early fathers is only one principle of canonicity, and it has to be compared to what all known fathers accepted.

ALL Protestant "fathers" did not accept James or Revelation. Your "principle of canonicity" should not require UNANIMITY. Otherwise, you are being hypocritical. The term "deutero" has a meaning, and it exists for the NEW TESTAMENT, as well...! Remember, the same rule should apply to both Testaments, and some of the NT was not unanimously accepted, either. Thus, I see a double standard in your rules.

M-Paul said:
My gosh -- PSS, word origins is evidence.

If I call myself "American", does that mean I am a native American Indian who lives in a teepee and hunts coyotes for dinner? No, this is not proof.

M-Paul said:
Proof one way or another is another thing. However, if you can establish there are forged manuscripts, that does not mean the case is over. Or do you hold there is no evidence of the RCC being a true church because the Donation of Constantine was forged?

There is plentiful evidence beyond that silly attempt...

Regards
 
Mike said:
dadof10 said:
How are we to know which Books are inspired and which aren't?

I know there is going to be disagreement on which books are Inspired and which aren't, just as different denominations have differences in interpreting scripture.

Within Protestantism, there isn't disagreement on the inspired Books, which has always struck me as sort of inconsistent. On the one hand, the Catholic Church was wrong on many (if not most) doctrinal issues, yet the Canon of Scripture has not been questioned, once Luther accepted the Hebrew Canon over the Septuagint, that is. The idea of a "Closed Canon" has been accepted by all of Protestantism, but that idea is not Scriptural. Funny, peculiar...

My point was, there are Words that are Inspired, and there are words that aren't. It's not up to us, on our own, to decide which are Inspired for me and for you, and for Tom or Lisa... just as Truth is Truth and isn't determined individually.

i agree. Thanks for clarifying.

I realize my wording would lead people to believe I was talking about Catholic Tradition, but I wasn't, and I hope I'm not responsible for this going steep in that direction. I would include ANYTHING that proposes extra-biblical theology or practices. For you or anyone to claim support for something because the Bible is silent on it is not support at all.

OK. I will let it alone. I'll stay away from the entire Sola-Scriptura part of this.

By the way, I don't take pot-shots at Catholics, and this was not my intention. Rather my :twocents Sorry if it was taken as such.

I didn't take your words as Catholic bashing, Mike. No harm done. :wave
 
Francis,

I did not want the link posted. I think you knew that.

Did you read the article fast. Maybe, you did not want to waste your time.

I did not set out "Thus says the Lord," as a rule, but after I set out three elements to the test of inspiration, I noted Scripture referring to itself as the Word of God as "evidence." So you start right off with a stawman argument, making evidence a rule. Not every book has to say, "Thus says the Lord," but when it does, that is evidence.

But that is how lexicographical distinctions are important. For the New Testament refers to the entire OT as Scripture. But how do we know lexicographically what is meant... from the council of Jamnia, and I noted it may not have been a council, and it had no counciliar significance, only significance for determining a dictionary definition. However, you respond as if I set it out as having conciliar significance. The only significance it has is lexicographical -- that is lexicographical tradition. So you twisted the meaning of what I wrote completely for another strawman arugment, even though I went to additional effort in what I set out to make clear I was referencing lexicography and not conciliar authority. The fact that the Pharisees crucified Christ does not change the meaning of words according to lexicography.

However, according to Scripture, those Jews in control of the tabernacle/temple were the ones in control of what was determined by the Jews as Scripture. It is not circular or a non-sequitar to note that Jews in control of the temple did not recognize the Apocrapha, just because at one time the temple no longer existed, or because there was a time between temples. However, with Lamentations and Esther, Jesus confirmed these as Scripture, which we know lexicographically by how the Jews referred to their writings. And Jews in control of the temple also confirmed these books as Scripture.

Men vouching for the inspiration of Scripture does not constitute a principle of canonicity as established by Scripture. And God did not have prophets speak, so that eventually they would be known as having said the Word of God. Their message was to their generation as well.

Really, Francis, you did not respond to my article at all, but just to something you imagined it said.
 
Francis,

Now the software is really fighting me.

One piece of evidence does not have to be proof. However, it may be, or if it is combined with other pieces, then it may become part of proof, or it may just be something worth considering.

Reliance on Scripture by every single identifiable church father is not a principle of canonicity. However, the testimony of the early Christian community on whether an apostle performed miracles and predicted the future as an indication of being inspired is. Thus, first we look to what fathers did rely on James and Revelation and we consider that as part of the evidence on whether these books should be canon. We also have to consider the complete context of the reliance and the nature of the message as being consistent with prior Scripture and any other available evidence.

In like manner, just because there is evidence of forged manuscripts on the Waldensians, it does not mean that any and all other evidence must be excluded from consideration.

PS -- with Revelation, it is really important to note the reasons used by the early fathers for not relying on it. Or were they actually valid?
 
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