"Our Rights don't come from God"

[ReginaForbes]

...Oh really? Then where do they come from???
Recently CNN Anchor Chris Cuomo interviewed Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore and one of the topics up for debate were- Where do our rights come from? Justice Moore rightly said "Our rights come from God". However according to Cuomo, our rights come from "collective agreement and compromise".
Now men may all agree that God has given us certain unalienable rights (such as life, liberty, and property) however, it does not mean these men have decided ex nihilo our rights, instead, they are recognizing an absolute truth. Reality cannot be negotiated upon- for example, stealing someone else's child is WRONG across cultures- this wasn't negotiated upon in some sort of council meeting, it is instinctual! So for Cuomo to make the absurd assumption that some body of people are just sitting around negotiating right and wrong is blatantly ignorant!

 

[reba]

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

 

[reba]

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

 

[reba]

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

 

[JLB]

For the Lord is good; His mercy is everlasting, And His truth endures to all generations. Psalm 100:5

His truth endures to all generations.

 

[Obadiah]

I agree that it seems in our human understanding that the rights given us in the Bill of Rights seem to be from God. Probably God wouldn't disagree with most of them either. But if God Himself gave them to us, how do we know this? It's not in scripture. Don't we agree that the Bible is the only word of God to us? If not, that leaves us open to everyone's opinion suddenly becoming "the word of God" simply because they say it is. So if the Bible is God's only word to us where does it say, for example, that God gave us all a right to own property, or to be happy, or to own guns, or to... on and on?

If I tell you that you can't wear orange colored clothing because God said it's a sin, most of you would rightly challenge me to show you in scripture where God said this is a sin. When I couldn't show you that in the Bible, you would disregard what I say. So why does that same standard not hold true for our constitutional rights when we say they were given to us by God? Where does God's word say He has given us these rights? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the constitution or with any of the rights it gives us. I don't believe that God necessarily has to have told us to do something in the Bible before it's OK to do it. But I question how anyone can say God actually gave us those specific rights if God has never told us this.

 

[reba]

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Does life its self come from God?
Are we not free in Him?
the beatitudes
strongs number for blessed G3107
A prolonged form of the poetical μάκαρ makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension fortunate, well off: - blessed, happy (X -ier).

 

[ReginaForbes]

I agree that it seems in our human understanding that the rights given us in the Bill of Rights seem to be from God. Probably God wouldn't disagree with most of them either. But if God Himself gave them to us, how do we know this? It's not in scripture. Don't we agree that the Bible is the only word of God to us? If not, that leaves us open to everyone's opinion suddenly becoming "the word of God" simply because they say it is. So if the Bible is God's only word to us where does it say, for example, that God gave us all a right to own property, or to be happy, or to own guns, or to... on and on?

If I tell you that you can't wear orange colored clothing because God said it's a sin, most of you would rightly challenge me to show you in scripture where God said this is a sin. When I couldn't show you that in the Bible, you would disregard what I say. So why does that same standard not hold true for our constitutional rights when we say they were given to us by God? Where does God's word say He has given us these rights? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the constitution or with any of the rights it gives us. I don't believe that God necessarily has to have told us to do something in the Bible before it's OK to do it. But I question how anyone can say God actually gave us those specific rights if God has never told us this.

Romans 2:15 "They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." This passage tells us that God has given us absolute truth instinctually- that's why you find similarities to the 10 commandments cutting across all cultures and nationalities.

 

[Obadiah]

Romans 2:15 "They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." This passage tells us that God has given us absolute truth instinctually- that's why you find similarities to the 10 commandments cutting across all cultures and nationalities.

If we know the truth instinctualy, why do we sin? Why do most people not believe in and accept Christ as their savior without being told first? This kind of sounds like you are claiming that what you think in your mind beyond what scripture says is equal to the word of God, even though in reality it's just your thoughts. They may be right thoughts, but still your thoughts. This is what I was getting at by saying it's a sin to wear orange clothing. If "in my heart" I think God is telling me that it's a sin for people to wear orange clothing, I don't think that makes it true, much less makes it the word of God.

 

[Edward]

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Does life its self come from God?
Are we not free in Him?
the beatitudes
strongs number for blessed G3107
A prolonged form of the poetical μάκαρ makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension fortunate, well off: - blessed, happy (X -ier).

Yep. In actuality, that Constitution isn't really ours (the people). Our laws and precepts are written in scripture. The Constitution was written for the Government, a reminder sheet for their wall of what they can not do. Our rights and life do come from God. If everyone behaved in the manner that scripture instructs us to, there would be no crime or need for government by man.

Maybe in the beginning, the church was supposed to be the Government?

 

[ReginaForbes]

If we know the truth instinctualy, why do we sin? Why do most people not believe in and accept Christ as their savior without being told first? This kind of sounds like you are claiming that what you think in your mind beyond what scripture says is equal to the word of God, even though in reality it's just your thoughts. They may be right thoughts, but still your thoughts. This is what I was getting at by saying it's a sin to wear orange clothing. If "in my heart" I think God is telling me that it's a sin for people to wear orange clothing, I don't think that makes it true, much less makes it the word of God.

If you read Romans, Paul is trying to speak to non-Jews about the salvation that is Jesus Christ. He's saying "you know right from wrong so you are without excuse!" Sort of like how you scold a child who knows better but does something bad anyway. That's what I meant when I posted that verse. God etched it into us that we KNOW better, so we have no excuse when we come before Him. We can never make the excuse: "I didn't know I was sinning".

 

[reba]

Yep. In actuality, that Constitution isn't really ours (the people). Our laws and precepts are written in scripture. The Constitution was written for the Government, a reminder sheet for their wall of what they can not do. Our rights and life do come from God. If everyone behaved in the manner that scripture instructs us to, there would be no crime or need for government by man.

Maybe in the beginning, the church was supposed to be the Government?

We can take a quick look at the world ... it shows clearly the evilness of man... Man seems to , from the beginning, put himself in front of God..

 

[jasonc]

uhm the idea of freedom of worship isn't in the bible. while I agree to it but uhm god gave us the right to worship satan? he allows it but uhm that is like well its impossible for the government to stop murders. so a man does it, god judges him, did god give him the right to kill? no , he didn't. he punished the man for taking another life. a right means one has the ability to do something without any recourse. ie a criminal doesn't loose his fifth amendment rights, fourth admenment and first upon conviction.

 

[Milk-Drops]

...Oh really? Then where do they come from???

The brave men and women who fight to protect them and those that question the very aspects of society and ask why to the powers of other men.

Recently CNN Anchor Chris Cuomo interviewed Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore and one of the topics up for debate were- Where do our rights come from? Justice Moore rightly said "Our rights come from God". However according to Cuomo, our rights come from "collective agreement and compromise".

When we are talking about rights when it comes to US politics, Cuomo is correct. Our rights have come from a long line human trial and error. The US specifically got its base rights from opposing British Monarchy and appealed to Greek philosophers such as Aerostotle and Plato for their influence. Sure many were religious, but if you actually read the arguments from "The Federalist Papers", the arguments are over human affairs and defending the concept of a constitutional republic.

Now men may all agree that God has given us certain unalienable rights (such as life, liberty, and property)

No, actually there are several billion that disagree with this concept right there. Especially in Asian countries and Northern Europe.

however, it does not mean these men have decided ex nihilo our rights, instead, they are recognizing an absolute truth.

Actually I pointed out above the biggest influence on US politics above, so its not ex nihilo, also, if you don't know history you are going to have a very bad time.

Reality cannot be negotiated upon-

I should point out that there is an atheistic philosophy called Objectivism that would agree with you, but not in the way you want them to.

for example, stealing someone else's child is WRONG across cultures- this wasn't negotiated upon in some sort of council meeting, it is instinctual!

Actually there are several cultures that don't see the problems with stealing children for various reasons. Heck, he in the US and most Western countries the Government can seize children and make them wards of the State if parents endanger them. We cheer this on generally as well.

So for Cuomo to make the absurd assumption that some body of people are just sitting around negotiating right and wrong is blatantly ignorant!

I think its more ignorant for you to straw man Cuomo's position and use your absurd example to try and convince others is quite blatantly more offensive.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Romans 2:15 "They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." This passage tells us that God has given us absolute truth instinctually-

It actually tells us that Paul is making a statement that can't be proven and would be impossible to show either way because its vaugley worded and can mean anything. If you take children and isolate them lord of the flies style, all the things we claim are written on our hearts seems to not hold together to well when we isolate people away from society and resources become scarce. Its almost like we are instinctual and willing to compromise and act civilized as long as our needs are met on a basic level.

that's why you find similarities to the 10 commandments cutting across all cultures and nationalities.

Actually we don't, most of the time these similarities tend to end outside of murder and thievery. Heck, the first 3 commandments only apply to Judaism, Christainity, and Islam.

So we have 5 other commandments that are either not present in other non christian cultures or have different basis for why they are upheld as right of wrong, or just don't exist period outside of Judaic based religions. Also the popular 10 commandments that we see in pop culture are actually short handed or not exactly the same as the actual 10 commandments. Most people forget or don't know that there we 2 sets of commandments and the 10 we see are a combination from both sets of 10. The ones that make absolutely no sense in a modern context aren't referenced. For instance the commandment about the first crops and children belonging to God and not boiling a lamb in its mother's milk.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Gina,
Great thread. OB, you've stepped into the Lion's den! Oh, BTW, ladies, I concur! I love that word, concur, sounds intelligent, LOL! But it's true!

 

[Edward]

uhm the idea of freedom of worship isn't in the bible. while I agree to it but uhm god gave us the right to worship satan? he allows it but uhm that is like well its impossible for the government to stop murders. so a man does it, god judges him, did god give him the right to kill? no , he didn't. he punished the man for taking another life. a right means one has the ability to do something without any recourse. ie a criminal doesn't loose his fifth amendment rights, fourth admenment and first upon conviction.

Yeah buddy, God's court is very different even at a first glance! While He may seem very strict, He's also very merciful, loving, and just. He never wanted to force Himself on anyone so He did give us free will. So your freedom of worship actually is in the bible but it's written as free will. Without any recourse? Uhh, no. God is just. Suppose it was a member of your family that the BG killed? You would rightly want justice. So either the BG will pay for it by going to hell...or, Jesus already spilled His blood to pay for it. So you'd get your eye for an eye either way, plus, be reunited with your loved one in heaven!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yeah buddy, God's court is very different even at a first glance! While He may seem very strict, He's also very merciful, loving, and just. He never wanted to force Himself on anyone so He did give us free will. So your freedom of worship actually is in the bible but it's written as free will. Without any recourse? Uhh, no. God is just. Suppose it was a member of your family that the BG killed? You would rightly want justice. So either the BG will pay for it by going to hell...or, Jesus already spilled His blood to pay for it. So you'd get your eye for an eye either way, plus, be reunited with your loved one in heaven!

The BG may get saved and spend all eternity right next to you.
That may not sound like justice but it is.

And when people talk about fighting for this country so we can enjoy our rights.
I think about abortion.
Yes, one of our rights is to abort our children all we want.
I don't see that worth fighting for.
I don't see how these rights tie in with our rights from God.

 

[jasonc]

The BG may get saved and spend all eternity right next to you.
That may not sound like justice but it is.

And when people talk about fighting for this country so we can enjoy our rights.
I think about abortion.
Yes, one of our rights is to abort our children all we want.
I don't see that worth fighting for.
I don't see how these rights tie in with our rights from God.

I can say that we are not much better then isis with our abortion practice.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I can say that we are not much better then isis with our abortion practice.

Ahhhh but! The Lost "christian" believes it is not human and is not alive until it cries where they can hear it. They, like the rest of the Lost, have never read Jeremiah and believed the truth. They have their religion and they do not want Christ to interfere with the other ninety something percent of their lives. They will enter the Pit crying "But LORD!"