Parent Check "grade my Parenting please.

[Danus]

OK, I need my parent bothers and sisters to check this out and let me know if I;m thinking OK.

My oldest Daughter, 10.9 years old, has a best'est friend ever who spends summers at her grandmothers home, skiing, riding horses and such; Not the whole summer, but she and her younger brother are only home three weekends a summer. The rest of the time they spend at their grandparents place which is about 235 miles away.

Needless to say my daughter and her friend are just sick for lack of each others company. In the past we've talked about them hanging out together at her grandparents place, but up until now it's been just talk peppered with the occasional phase; "some day maybe you can do that."

Well, it's now some day. Her friend has begged her mother to ask us and she has and we are less than reluctant, but we still have reservations....concerns.

On the plus side we know and respect her parents. Good people. Under this plan they will both take our daughter up there and stay for the time (one weekend). They accept responsibility and have told us so. We know and trust them.

On the down side we don't know the grand parents, nor do we know anyone they know, or live around. However they have a nice place with land and it's in the country so to speak.

There are a lot of "what if's" but not any based on anything negative we know, just our imaginative fears. things like...They have dobermans. what if those dogs attack our little girl? !! You know that type of thing.

We have decided to allow this in the coming week just before school starts. Her friend will come back with her. We are going to tell her about it tonight.

HOWEVER, we are going to put it this way...'How would you like to do this?" she'll scream for joy...."well, here is the deal. We have had a few issue with you in regards to respectful boundaries. How you treat our sister, and the way you have been treating us (rolling eyes, not doing what your told and mistaking direct instructions for what you think are conversations, when in fact they are just ...direct instructions given to you for your well being, growth and positive development.) ....so, in order for you to go on this little excursion we need to see an improvement in the area of attitude, respect and general pleasantness. What ever classes you have taken to present the drama we've seen, we'd like to see you adjust your acting skills to portray a more positive character acceptable to a more general audience and worthy of an academy award." .......yes that colorful facetiousness is exactly how I put things in my house with a smile, It's just understood.

If she goes, and we're sure she will live up to it, she is to check in with us twice a day every day. We will have all phone numbers and such. We think this might be a good thing for us to do as parents in regards to the loosening up, letting go a little and providing space factor, but we are still worried in a healthy way.

Comments, suggestions?

 

[Mike]

Danus, I wouldn't have a problem with this. You can't know everyone or control all the factors while she's away, but if you know and trust the parents... I get your worries and concerns, but we've sent our kids up north with friends and family. I would imagine they would pay extra attention to what she's doing. Our friends did. But the first time for this is rough. It sounds like an awesome time for her!

 

[Rhea]

My personal opinion is that for something this big - and with an invitation and other people involved - one should not say, "you can go if you're good". Because what are the repercussions to the friend, her parents and the grandparents if you have to pull out at the last minute? My preference is to talk about the behaviour, how it would be viewed by the hosts, etc., and what is expected of her there. But I think a parent should say yes or no. Yes you are ready for such a trip, or no you are not.

For a couple of reasons:

1. If you think she is not ready but she pulls it together briefly so you'll say yes, how prepared is she really for the trip? Are you setting her up for something she can't really handle, and has shown you she doesn't understand the need for?
2. Putting "rewards" on good behaviour takes the reason for good behavior away from "for goodness' sake" and into bribery. I think the lesson is more useful, and more deeply felt, if the reason they are doing it is that it is what's proper and it's who they want to be.
3. It teaches her to think that one person's lack of preparation is a good reason to make other people change plans at the last minute. Iprefer to teach that when you make a promise to friends, you keep that promise. And, related to #1, you don't make promises you can't keep.
4. And finally, it lets her know that she can't just turn on the charm when she wants something badly. She has to *BE* that person to get the rewards of being that person.

So for me, if you think she can handle it; say yes, and give her plenty of talk about what the other family will expect of her, and what your family's honor is expecting of her representation of it.

Afterward, if it goes well, tell her the reason you let her go was because of what areas she had already shown she was ready. "But let this be a lesson, if we thought your eyerolling and disrespect and lack of cooperation and helpfulness were not on the way out, the answer would have been no. And if it is not NOW on the way out, the answer the next time will have to be, 'we're sorry, she's not ready.' Because we will not put you in a situation that you can't handle." And if it doesn't go well, then it's "we thought you were ready. But we see now that the eyerolling, etc were stronger symptoms of your youth than we thought. We will make sure we see the permanent changes before we can let that happen again." And at the inevitable eyerolling from that (or if you decide she's not actually ready to go); "did you really think that disrespect to your parents would demonstrate a readiness to represent our family in public? Seriously?"

My 2¢

 

[Danus]

Thanks. That eases my worries. I know she'll have a good time and we approve of her friend and their family. It's just our first time to let venture out a little.

I feel like I want to tie a rope on her so I can jerk it back when I feel I need to.

 

[handy]

Sounds like all is good.

I remember the first time we gave Viola the go ahead to spend the night with a girl whose family we didn't know all that well....:o Naturally I had grilled...I mean, talked with the mom quite extensively...Steve and I dropped Viola off together...talked with the folks...made sure she had a cell phone...I stayed in town, just a mile or so away so if I had to go get her I could.

And she was fine. The girls are best friends and we've become pretty good friends with her folks too.

But, yep...I understand the whole "rope tied around the waist" thing.

 

[Mike]

My personal opinion is that for something this big - and with an invitation and other people involved - one should not say, "you can go if you're good". Because what are the repercussions to the friend, her parents and the grandparents if you have to pull out at the last minute?

Rhea, I know this will SHOCK you, but I disagree entirely. If my son does something wrong, the most effective form of punishment is to restrict his baseball. The team pays when this happens, but he's got to learn that his decisions/his behavior sometime impacts other people. If a girl cannot be well behaved enough to earn this trip, that will be on her, IMO. Yes, some people will be inconvenienced if this happens, but sometimes there are tough lessons learned.

1. Putting "rewards" on good behaviour takes the reason for good behavior away from "for goodness' sake" and into bribery. I think the lesson is more useful, and more deeply felt, if the reason they are doing it is that it is what's proper and it's who they want to be.

I don't know too many adults who will be willing to work for free. We're motivated by our own set of rewards, and sometimes I think we need to understand that children are too. We actually heard this at a secular workshop at our kid's school. At first I was a little put off by the notion of financially rewarding children for schoolwork, but it settled in later.

This is more a general parenting philosophical approach, rather than a response to Danus' OP, so this is all I'll say about that.

Danus, I'm sure you've considered this, but I'd think there had better be some teeth to this ultimatum, or that could backfire on you as a parent!

 

[Danus]

Danus, I'm sure you've considered this, but I'd think there had better be some teeth to this ultimatum, or that could backfire on you as a parent!

Yes I have. Reha brings up a point that my wife brought up sort of, but my response was; "If she did something between now and then that caused us to punish her by not letter her go then it'd be the same."

So, my approach was to put the limits out first and use the opportunity of the trip to work on a few attitude adjustments that we've been needing to see anyway.

Yes, I know it's a little slimy, but really when you think about it sometimes behavior can be adjusted on the front end with insensitive expected. I think this works best with well behaved kids anyway and my daughter are well behaved. Which is another reason I put the stipulations on the front end.

I don't get too many opportunities to really punish her because I don't have much to punish her for. She ultimately minds and follows direction, just put's out a little speed bump before she does. ;) She's starting to push her will, as all kids do I guess, and I chalk her little "Me-ness" up to that. What I don't want is it to get any more obvious on her end.

I just got done laying the whole plan out to her. My wife and I where on the same page. We called her in for the formal meeting. Shrills of Joy from her about the trip and then we got yes sir and yes mam, thank you and eye contact. So far so good, but I reminded her that she's not just going yet. I expect positive results on attitude and respectfulness. I think this will also be a good opportunity for her to keep these things in mind. Otherwise when I tell her these things the moment fads, but this time she will have a longer reason to work on a few things. We'll see.

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and thoughts on this. We will still be a little nervous just about her being gone from us, but I think it will be a good exercise for us as parents also.

 

[handy]

I don't know how I missed Rhea's post...getting blind again in my old age.

At any rate, even though I didn't read Rhea's post...I was thinking the same thing...that her ability to go shouldn't be tied to discipline. That's why I revisited this thread as a matter of fact, then I saw Rhea's post...(great minds thinking alike! ;))

Maybe it's the difference between men and women here.

But, to me it's always best to fit the punishment with the crime. And, having a drama queen as a daughter, I know that her eye-rolling and disrespect is a sign of her "teen rebellion" towards us, her parents, not that she is a disrespectful person. As a matter of fact, we are told constantly by teachers, pastors and other adults what a well-behaved, sweet and intelligent young woman she is...often leaving me wonder who she becomes when she steps out of our sight, 'cause she ain't like that at home!

I wouldn't prevent her from going on a trip with others for rolling her eyes or yelling...(Viola is a yeller, I don't know where she gets it from : ).

There is a lot of good that comes from allowing our kids time away from home with others, away from parents. This is their time to start acting upon all they've been taught and learning what it's like to not have mom or dad around...vital lessons. The last thing you want is having your child's first time of ever being away from parents be when they go off to college. They really need the short, controlled, forays to the big outdoors before leaving the nest for good. Sending them off with trusted people for a short period of time is a good way for them to gain the experience they need.

There is also a dynamic that comes with kids getting older and they are struggling to go from being a dependent child to becoming an independent adult...and the power struggle that crops up between parent and kid during that time is perfectly normal...aggravating, but normal.

So, Viola's punishment for being disrespectful to us is to be ordered about like a slave-child. We just went through this the other night. She was getting pretty disrespectful so we made her clean up the living room, empty and refill the dishwasher, dust the china cabinet...all designed to point out that until July 29th, 2015 at 11:59 pm...Daddy and I do indeed get to make her do what we want because she's a kid. At 12:00am July 30th, 2015...we'll sit down and renegotiate life as an adult living at home with her parents.

But, she does have plans to go with one of her friends to a water-park...we wouldn't tell her she can't go to that, because the trip with friends really has absolutely nothing to do with her relationship with us. When she is away from home, she is well-behaved and trustworthy...

So, Danus, if your daughter is a fairly disrespectful person "out there" to teachers, pastors, other adults...then yes, punishing her for disrespect by making her miss out on a trip is making the "punishment fit the crime". "If you can't show that you can be respectful, then you cannot go."

But, if...as I suspect is the case...she's an angel when she's away from home and saves all her eye-rolling, sibling poking, back-talking for just when she's home safe among those she knows love her the best...then that's a different story.

Not that I'm suggesting that you change what you've already established for this trip...but she's only 10 yet. You might want to consider these points as she grows even older.

 

[Danus]

I hear you Handy.

She is an angle according to the rest of the world, and honestly she's a pretty good kid, but she has a natural political talent for molding herself to fit the expectation of others for the points she knows it will gain her.

This worries me and impresses me.

My oldest is not your typical kid. She's extremely intelligent, and I'm not saying that to brag. She's not normal in this area. She attends special classes twice a week in school for this talent. Nothing new, there a good handful of kids that do, but she has an IQ off the charts for her age. She excels in math and atilitical thinking skills and parlays this into her social, and relationship skills. She builds groups around her, teachers, other kids, parents.

Give you an example: She entered this art contest at school. She can copy a picture to the "T" and fancy's herself an artist for this skill, but actually she is not really an artist as much as she is skilled in the art of forgery of art. (I don't tell her that, but you know what I mean) An artist is creative as well as skilled.

She was sure sh'd win 1st place and was furious when she did not. She came in 4th and that's last of the winnings. However, when they had the "showing" at the school, she smiled and went around congratulating those who won 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and even went around to a few that did not win anything and told them how great their entries where. She made sure to do this in front of parents and teachers. She did it with a straight face, a twinkle in her eye and the up most sincerity. Then in the car on the way home started bad-mouthing a few of them. (we did get on to her)

She will consider the best possible response, or interaction with a person or group to manipulate the relationship to her advantage. This can be good or bad, but I've been assured she's not a sociopath . She does express empathy and proper feelings for others, but she's crafty.

So get this, I just got back with her from her gymnastics class. I picked her up and took her there and back with little sister in tow. Little sister is 8 and looks for any button she can push with her older sister...you know.

As we got in the car I said to my daughter; "have you been thinking about your trip and how fun it might be?".... response; "Yes sir I can't wait. I'm really looking forward to going." "great." I said; "I'm hoping you can go as well. I think you'd have a good time." ........ That has set the stage for this evening. I've told her to straighten her room and get ready for bed. Not one rolled eye, no huffs, no puffs, a perfect angle, and she even freaked out her little sister by not responding to some of her subtle button pushing.

Basically I am using this opportunity by manipulating her into practicing good behavior, and exploiting her own nature. Maybe she did not fall far from the tree, but I was never as smart as she is. When the week is up, I expect to have a talk with her and tell her how proud I am of her and her improved behavior this past week. Then I will tell her to have a nice time in the country with her friend.

Could it back fire? I don't know, but I don't think so. So far the plan is working. So far I'm getting results using something clever as a sneaky weapon, where as before I'd have gotten a debate being unarmed. She would have nothing to loose and think she had nothing to gain, but this week it's different. So, she is doing what she does thinking she is manipulating me, but the jokes on her.

She may be able to beat me at chess, but I taught her how to play. With my youngest it's different. She's wired differently. I have to calm her down and get her to think over her emotions. That seems normal to me for a child, and even some adults. I can offer insight and see that she is using that to bring thought over emotion and handle how she feels. Again, that seems normal, but my oldest? I have to get to her emotion because they are held back by her thinking skills. again. could be good, could be bad.

 

[handy]

Why do I get the impression that I'll be voting for your eldest daughter for President someday!

Really, those are not bad traits...can be great if you can help her get a handle on things like hypocrisy.

But, after reading about her...yes, I can see exactly why you are playing this the way you are.

Grade: A

 

[reba]

Sounds like a great plan to this Grandma!

You know your child!

 

[Danus]

Why do I get the impression that I'll be voting for your eldest daughter for President someday!

That worries me as well. .... I hope to steer her into medicine or something in the sciences, but she may have a head for business. I hope not politics, but I'll be happy if she just uses her God given talents in the way God directs her. She's an over achiever.

Her mom and I are not really like that, but we do push our girls to do their best and sometimes I wonder if they, or we, mistake whats' expected for what must be? It's a delicate balance I guess.

So far so good on the behavior. I've been running this whole thing by many of our friends and I've noticed the women and men are evenly split on the thoughts and how they think about it. Interesting.

 

[Rhea]

Handy, you're not crazy, my posts are moderated so they show up hours later sometimes.

So far so good on the behavior. I've been running this whole thing by many of our friends and I've noticed the women and men are evenly split on the thoughts and how they think about it. Interesting.

It might be something to think about if the women are thinking one way and the men another way - that the subject of the discussion is of the woman-variety. Just something to think about, yanno?

I don't know too many adults who will be willing to work for free.

Heh. You don't know many stay-at-home-parents, then?
But even on the working side, many polls have shown that most people are NOT motivated by money, but rather job satisfaction.

I understand that you see things differently in the parenting styles, that's natural to have diversity of thought. I'm just saying what works for us is for them to have an intrinsic understanding of why being good/cooperative/helpful is valuable and getting them on board with valuing it for themselves rather than trying to get them to support things that someone else values.

For our family it's lecture #376; "are you being good because I'm watching, or because you know being good is who you want to be?" I don't want them to think that their behavior only matters if someone is watching or if they think they will be caught.

I'm of a similar vein in chores. I don't give them a reward for doing chores, they do them because the chores need doing. Sometimes they complain and request an audience because they feel they have more chores than any of their friends, or because they don't understand WHY the toilet has to be clean, but in the end then do the chores - and without pay. The pay is in having a house that is well enough kept that I allow visitors over.

She is an angle according to the rest of the world, and honestly she's a pretty good kid, but she has a natural political talent for molding herself to fit the expectation of others for the points she knows it will gain her.

This worries me and impresses me.

See for me this is why I would not go for an effort to be good leading up the the trip. You just said you see she can turn on the charm when needed, and the charm (to you and your wife) will no longer be needed after the trip, and if she is as smart as you say, I might expect a calculation that the next time she wants something it'll get ttrurned on just in time for that one.

This may not be true of your daughter, but that's what I'd worry about in my life. If the good behavior is for this trip, then I would worry about it being just as fleeting, and having to go through the same routine the next time.

So I would be more inclined to make the statement that NO you may not go, because you are not ALREADY acting responsibly. You need to be a person who habitually acts responsibly to get such a trip without our supervision, not someone who just puts forth a show to get something she wants. Or in Mike's case, NO you may not join baseball this season, because your general behavior is not responsible, and it only makes sense to limit such a commitment to team to a kid who is habitually responsible.

That's just my 2 cents. And we all, I'm sure, aren't hard-and-fast, so we all make changes depending on the kid and the situation. I'm just commenting that in general, I focus my child-rearing on trying to teach them to motivate themselves and not need motivation meted out and monitored by me.

 

[Danus]

See for me this is why I would not go for an effort to be good leading up the the trip. You just said you see she can turn on the charm when needed, and the charm (to you and your wife) will no longer be needed after the trip, and if she is as smart as you say, I might expect a calculation that the next time she wants something it'll get ttrurned on just in time for that one.

This may not be true of your daughter, but that's what I'd worry about in my life. If the good behavior is for this trip, then I would worry about it being just as fleeting, and having to go through the same routine the next time.

So I would be more inclined to make the statement that NO you may not go, because you are not ALREADY acting responsibly. You need to be a person who habitually acts responsibly to get such a trip without our supervision, not someone who just puts forth a show to get something she wants. Or in Mike's case, NO you may not join baseball this season, because your general behavior is not responsible, and it only makes sense to limit such a commitment to team to a kid who is habitually responsible.

That's just my 2 cents. And we all, I'm sure, aren't hard-and-fast, so we all make changes depending on the kid and the situation. I'm just commenting that in general, I focus my child-rearing on trying to teach them to motivate themselves and not need motivation meted out and monitored by me.

You have a good point, and that's the crux of all this. For the record I meant angel not angle .

By all accounts she deserves this trip, and I'm just using it to get her to practice a display of respect because she does not do it constantly around the house. I'm manipulating her into behaving and holding something she wants out there to do it. I am teaching her something like one might train a dog. I get it and that's why I posted this and asked my physical friends the same thing.

We man, Fathers, think differently than you ladies (Moms). It's interesting. So I'll just draw the line between fathers and moms on this one, because I have enough evidence to do it. So here is the second half. Every time I bring this up to our couple friends, the mom speaks, then the father, the father backs up my plan and explains it to the mom and then it's all settled because it makes sense also to the mom, but I can tell we leave the mom's thinking about it. They all cut their eyes to the sky as if to further ponder this question.

What you, and the moms are saying is that I may be enabling her manipulative behavior by manipulating her. teaching her these things I speak against sort of, and I think your right. But is it a bad thing?

I have an otherwise well behaved child who I'd like to see a little better of in a particular area and I can not get her to practice it with us on a consistent basis quite like she has these past few days.

We've all heard this in the past; "Mind your P's and Q's!" Parents would say this to children often not knowing what it means, but it's about details, and they would apply this to our behavior. It's thought to have come from the old days of printing when they would set the letters in the plates. they had to do this backwards and if one was not careful they could place a q where a p should be.

Details. But think about this, as adults we don't often behave the way our hearts tell us to. Do we? If we did people would say what they really think. No, instead we manipulate our behavior around others to be social and to be friendly; to not hurt others feelings.....and to get what we want to some extent. ;)

 

[reba]

Danus you would have to put this Grandma on the male side.

The more often she practices pleasant good behavior the more natural it will become.

 

[Rhea]

By all accounts she deserves this trip, and I'm just using it to get her to practice a display of respect because she does not do it constantly around the house. I'm manipulating her into behaving and holding something she wants out there to do it. I am teaching her something like one might train a dog. I get it and that's why I posted this and asked my physical friends the same thing.

[...]

What you, and the moms are saying is that I may be enabling her manipulative behavior by manipulating her. teaching her these things I speak against sort of, and I think your right. But is it a bad thing?

Only if you think teaching her that manipulation is the way to get what you want. To me, personally, yeah, that's a bad thing. I abhor the negotiations, Mama, if you want me to clean/smile/behave then you have to take me to the pool, or buy me YY toy, or whatever.

No. I take you to the pool because it fits in the home schedule and I have time because we've all helped out. I take you to the pool because I'm relaxed and content with easygoing atmosphere in the house and I feel "sure, that seems easily done!". I do not take you to the pool when I feel harried or behind in chores or unhappy. I do not run out an distract when I see that we need to talk seriously. It's not that I'm "punishing" you - I'm not. It's a natural reaction that you will feel your whole life long that when you are a valued and welcome team member, you will create contentment that makes people more able to give more.

So that's why, for me, it would matter. Because I am not able to tolerate constant negotiation and battle for good behavior, and I know that their bosses and spouses later in life won't either. So for me, behavior for goodness' sake is the only good reason to behave. To do what makes me the person I want to be. And that's what I want my kids to do, too.

It takes longer, sometimes to make the lesson, but so far I'm quite pleased with how they conduct themselves and when they roll their eyes or some such I ask if that's who they want to be and they are contrite and apologize and say, "no, It's really not. I'm sorry".

Are they perfect? No. But they do know that disrespectful behavior says something about them as a person, not just something about their relationship with me. The old, "judge a person not by how they treat their superiors, but how they treat their help." We as parents, are "their help" in many ways, we are familiar and leaned on.

I have an otherwise well behaved child who I'd like to see a little better of in a particular area and I can not get her to practice it with us on a consistent basis quite like she has these past few days.
[...]

Details. But think about this, as adults we don't often behave the way our hearts tell us to. Do we? If we did people would say what they really think. No, instead we manipulate our behavior around others to be social and to be friendly; to not hurt others feelings.....and to get what we want to some extent. ;)

I have family members who manipulate and it drives me crazy. Just say what you want and if I can do it I will, assuming that you'll always give what you can, and not just to get something out of me, either. Don't try to trick me into doing it, or make it so that I have to help you in order to get help. I just give unconditionally, I seek others who do the same.

That's just my personality. Others are very different. But again, I think my kids are very happy to know that they aren't doing chores for me they are doing them for the team. They aren't being respectful for me they are being respectful because it's worthwhile. Sometimes in conversation if they are being disrepectful I talk about their disrespect to the conversation not to me, so that they can see that whoever they do this to will feel the same.


Just my 2¢ and I realize it's a personal thing.

 

[Danus]

I have family members who manipulate and it drives me crazy. Just say what you want and if I can do it I will, assuming that you'll always give what you can, and not just to get something out of me, either. Don't try to trick me into doing it, or make it so that I have to help you in order to get help. I just give unconditionally, I seek others who do the same.

That's just my personality. Others are very different. But again, I think my kids are very happy to know that they aren't doing chores for me they are doing them for the team. They aren't being respectful for me they are being respectful because it's worthwhile. Sometimes in conversation if they are being disrepectful I talk about their disrespect to the conversation not to me, so that they can see that whoever they do this to will feel the same.


Just my 2¢ and I realize it's a personal thing.

I appreciate your 2$? ( Just noticed there is no "cent" key)....Hum. been typing on a key board for years and just noticed that.

I guess there is manipulation and then their is manipulation that really involves lying.

In my job I make deals every day. I am involved in a type of sales between companies and my image is important. A big part of my image is my trustworthiness and integrity, but to communicate that I have to put my best foot forward. That's a product of my behavior. Now I could get a lot more done if I took short cuts and lied here and there, but that would speak to my character more so than just my behavior.

There is a difference. Behavior is how we present ourselves and Character runs a little deeper, it's part of who we really are. But manipulating a situation or other people is done every day naturally with our behavior, whether we like it or not, and it is also a part of our character. But, specifically why we do this is the difference between something positive or negative.

If I am tricking someone into buying something that I know is no good for them, but I make a sale anyway for my own benefit than that's negative. If I present something in the best way possible that is good for them and I get paid for it, then that's positive. Either way I'm still manipulating someone else.

I draw a distinction between character qualities and behavior when it comes to my kids. My daughters character is high to the standard I would expect, but her behavior (sometimes) is less than my expectations. In this case, It is that behavior that I want to work on.

Put another way; Character is found in one's motives (good or bad) behavior is the vehicle that delivers that motive to others.

So if someone has bad motives then they can behave good or bad to deliver their bad motives. Are they any more or less bad based on how they behave?

 

[l'Chante]

Hi, Danus. It's good to have you back. I hope you spent some quality time with the little ladies, but we really missed you.

 

[Danus]

Hi, Danus. It's good to have you back. I hope you spent some quality time with the little ladies, but we really missed you.

Thanks. Enjoying being back.

 

[Rhea]

I appreciate your 2$? ( Just noticed there is no "cent" key)....Hum. been typing on a key board for years and just noticed that.

By the way, the ¢ key disappeared in the early 1990s, replaced as the capital 2 by the @ key.

You can get it back by using ASCII code: hold the alt key while typing 0162 and you will get ¢.