Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Paul and Soul / Body Dualism

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
drew, you preach and teach exactly what the jehovah's witness teach. i hope you know that. word for word!!!!!!!on souls and hell.

i know your argument.the problem with that is first the idea of the ressurection to be judged, the jw assert that theres no ressurection for the sinner, only the righteous. which is clearly contra-biblical given what is plainly stated in revalation 20.
 
Ouite the semantic conundrum you have shown here. Are these new contexts not actually new definitions?
I am not sure the word "new" is appropriate here.

I would suggest that the original sense of the word "flesh", as used in the relevant contexts, is one where "flesh" denotes fallen human-ness, not "physicality". If this is so, it is not me who is "changing the meaning of terms", it is those who read "flesh" as physicality who do are doing this.

Are you saying then that redeemed fallen humaness is spiritual as in spirit being regenerated? Is humanity and humaness in this new context refering to mankind or rather a disposition in mankind?
I do not understand this question.

I am saying that when Paul talks about the "flesh" in certain contexts, he is not referring to the "physicality" of human beings to the exclusion of some "soul" thing - he is instead referring to what it basically a human being who is fundamentally not divisible into "body" and "soul" and characterizing that person as fallen.

Similarly, when Paul refers to the "spiritual", he is not necessarily talking about something non-physical. For example, in 1 Cor 15, Paul writes about a "spiritual body", meaning a body with legs, arms, etc.
 
drew, you preach and teach exactly what the jehovah's witness teach. i hope you know that. word for word!!!!!!!on souls and hell.
It may or may not be the case that some of the things I am saying match what Jehovah's witnesses believe.

But anyone who properly reads my posts will know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that I am decidedly not a Jehovah's Witness.
 
Stimulated by an observation made by theologian NT Wright, I propose a radical change in perspective in respect to addressing the body / soul issue. Here is Wright’s remark:

I believe therefore that a Christian anthropology must necessarily ask, not, what are human beings in themselves, but, what are human beings called to do and be as part of the creator’s design? Not to ask the question that way round, and to think simply about ourselves and what we are, risks embodying, at a methodological level, Luther’s definition of sin: homo incurvatus in se.

For your information, Luther’s latin phrase means “man turned in on himself”.

Wright is making a foundational point, challenging the very way this “soul-body” question gets framed, and therefore addressed. In the 21st century west, we very naturally carve up reality into discrete “objects” – trees, clouds, rocks, etc. Of course, we also concern ourselves with relations between such objects, but our perspective is primarily “object-centric”. Consequently, the question of “what is a human person” becomes, more or less, what “parts” might make up the “object” that we call a human. And so, following the Greek tradition, we come up with categories such as “soul” and “body”.

That’s fine, perhaps, but it is not the only way to proceed. We can also examine the human person not so much as a “thing” seen in relative isolation, but instead as a dynamic relational agent, embedded in the real world, and tightly connected to various aspects of that real world. From the Christian perspective we can safely assert that, notwithstanding the error of believing God will destroy the world, we are called to be involved in the redemption of the created order in its physical dimension, along with other “dimensions” as appropriate. In this respect, we should pay attention to the statement in Revelation 21 about heaven and earth merging (not earth being destroyed and heaven continuing on). This statement is highly instructive – history is on a trajectory to a state where the “spiritual” (as we might say) dimension of heaven will be merged with the “physical” dimension of this present world, presumably eliminating any discontinuity between these two realms in the process.

I suggest that this means that, perhaps, we human beings are on this same trajectory. I have not thought this through at all, but it could actually turn out to be the case that our very “internal architecture is evolving, with any “distinction” between “soul” and “body” dissolving in the process. On this view, there may indeed be a sense in which humans beings come into this world “split up” into parts such as body and soul, but, as we mature in Christ, perhaps these distinctions, which I suggest are negative artefacts of the fall, are gradually erased.

We all too easily opt for the simplicity of static models – it complicates things to imagine that the fundamental structure of our world may actually be changing over time. And yet such a view is eminently Biblical – God is, even now, at work transforming the very fabric of our world. Who is to say that this does not include “putting human beings back together”.

This is all off-the-cuff speculation, written down in 15 minutes as stimulated by the one sentence from NT Wright (I did not read the rest of the article in which this statement appeared, so he may take things in an entirely different direction). However, the position I am trying to articulate, notwithstanding my previous posts, actually concedes that there may indeed be a “true” dualism in the human person. However, I am also suggesting that this is a “problem that is being fixed”, and not a fundamental eternal truth.
 
Stimulated by an observation made by theologian NT Wright, I propose a radical change in perspective in respect to addressing the body / soul issue. Here is Wright’s remark:

I believe therefore that a Christian anthropology must necessarily ask, not, what are human beings in themselves, but, what are human beings called to do and be as part of the creator’s design? Not to ask the question that way round, and to think simply about ourselves and what we are, risks embodying, at a methodological level, Luther’s definition of sin: homo incurvatus in se.

For your information, Luther’s latin phrase means “man turned in on himselfâ€.

Wright is making a foundational point, challenging the very way this “soul-body†question gets framed, and therefore addressed. In the 21st century west, we very naturally carve up reality into discrete “objects†– trees, clouds, rocks, etc. Of course, we also concern ourselves with relations between such objects, but our perspective is primarily “object-centricâ€. Consequently, the question of “what is a human person†becomes, more or less, what “parts†might make up the “object†that we call a human. And so, following the Greek tradition, we come up with categories such as “soul†and “bodyâ€.

That’s fine, perhaps, but it is not the only way to proceed. We can also examine the human person not so much as a “thing†seen in relative isolation, but instead as a dynamic relational agent, embedded in the real world, and tightly connected to various aspects of that real world. From the Christian perspective we can safely assert that, notwithstanding the error of believing God will destroy the world, we are called to be involved in the redemption of the created order in its physical dimension, along with other “dimensions†as appropriate. In this respect, we should pay attention to the statement in Revelation 21 about heaven and earth merging (not earth being destroyed and heaven continuing on). This statement is highly instructive – history is on a trajectory to a state where the “spiritual†(as we might say) dimension of heaven will be merged with the “physical†dimension of this present world, presumably eliminating any discontinuity between these two realms in the process.

I suggest that this means that, perhaps, we human beings are on this same trajectory. I have not thought this through at all, but it could actually turn out to be the case that our very “internal architecture is evolving, with any “distinction†between “soul†and “body†dissolving in the process. On this view, there may indeed be a sense in which humans beings come into this world “split up†into parts such as body and soul, but, as we mature in Christ, perhaps these distinctions, which I suggest are negative artefacts of the fall, are gradually erased.

We all too easily opt for the simplicity of static models – it complicates things to imagine that the fundamental structure of our world may actually be changing over time. And yet such a view is eminently Biblical – God is, even now, at work transforming the very fabric of our world. Who is to say that this does not include “putting human beings back togetherâ€.

This is all off-the-cuff speculation, written down in 15 minutes as stimulated by the one sentence from NT Wright (I did not read the rest of the article in which this statement appeared, so he may take things in an entirely different direction). However, the position I am trying to articulate, notwithstanding my previous posts, actually concedes that there may indeed be a “true†dualism in the human person. However, I am also suggesting that this is a “problem that is being fixedâ€, and not a fundamental eternal truth.

NT Wright suggests a concept he calls "differentiated unity", which appears just a bit easier than The Trinity to understand. Nevertheless, I don't have a real problem with it.

Here's the article:
Mind, Spirit, Soul and Body: All for One and One for All Reflections on Paul's Anthropology in his Complex Contexts by the Rt Revd Prof N. T. Wright
 
Perhaps you could give us a definition of the above?
Here is my first attempt:

1. The "monistic" model asserts that the human person is not divisible into "parts" in any theologically relevant sense. Now obviously, one could believe in the "hand" or "eye", or "liver" as parts of the human person. But these particular distinctions are entirely irrelevant to "theological" matters. On the other hand, if one asserted that there is "thing" called a "soul" that lives on after the death of the body, that would indeed be a theologically relevant distinction. But the monistic model does not embrace that concept of "soul".

2. Elaborating from point (1), the monistic model denies that there is a "thing" called the "soul" which is immaterial, is the seat of consciousness, and survives the death of the body. On the monistic model, when you're dead, you lose consciousness. A Christian (or even a Jew) could ascribe to the monistic model and still assert that, in the future, God will raise the person from the dead (i.e. into a body) and then consciousness would be restored.

3. On the monistic view, terms like "soul" are descriptive terms, not ontological terms (terms that specify something that "exists as a thing" within a taxonomy of things). A perfect analogy is the term "personality". Atheists would say "Mary has a nice personality" without intending to suggest that if her body were destroyed, the personality would live on. The term "personality", then, is simply a "window" word which captures certains features of Mary - it is not a "thing".

Now some qualifications: As I believe I have already conceded, I have read that Jews had a monistic model for the human person. I cannot tell you how much of the "above" definition represents what I have read about what Jews believed and how much is my own "working" out of the proposal that the human person cannot be "split up" into parts.
 
NT Wright suggests a concept he calls "differentiated unity", which appears just a bit easier than The Trinity to understand. Nevertheless, I don't have a real problem with it.

Here's the article:
Mind, Spirit, Soul and Body: All for One and One for All Reflections on Paul's Anthropology in his Complex Contexts by the Rt Revd Prof N. T. Wright
:)

This is precisely the article where I read the statement that I then elaborated on. I stopped reading as soon as I read the statement I quoted precisely because I wanted to "do my own thinking" without being influenced by Wright. I plan to read the rest of the article.
 
It may or may not be the case that some of the things I am saying match what Jehovah's witnesses believe.

But anyone who properly reads my posts will know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that I am decidedly not a Jehovah's Witness.
i know that but its just considering when i was a kid, they very idea of what you say wouldnt be accepted.i know i was on the other end of this debate and used your arguments.
 
sheesh. drew is saying that for one to be human one must have both soul and body. we are both in person.

ok. i assumed that others think that.
 
sheesh. drew is saying that for one to be human one must have both soul and body. we are both in person.

ok. i assumed that others think that.
I think Drew is saying what the OT says: God breathed into the body of man and man then became a soul.
 
I think Drew is saying what the OT says: God breathed into the body of man and man then became a soul.
That is indeed what I am saying. However, as per a recent post, my position on all this is not "firm" - I would not be surprised if the true Biblical position, if there is one, is that there there is indeed some "differentiation" to the human person - some sense in which one can coherently speak about there being different "parts" to the person (in a theologically relevant sense of course, I do not deny the obvious: that we have a "hand" part, an "ear" part, a "liver" part, etc.).
 
It seems that the concept of the soul is not looked at broadly enough for the soul is actually more than just the "inner person." In scripture it is spoken of as the entirety of a person from the seat of the mind to the physical body. My body is a part of my soul just as my thoughts, emotions, and other energies are. When we die, these "energies" (aka personality components) are no longer given off as they can only be given off through a living vessel. That is why Solomon could say that a man's very thoughts perish. In the resurrection who knows, maybe the resurrected bodies will be given these components back. But regardless, those component are not the soul, just a part of the living soul.
 
It seems that the concept of the soul is not looked at broadly enough for the soul is actually more than just the "inner person." In scripture it is spoken of as the entirety of a person from the seat of the mind to the physical body. My body is a part of my soul just as my thoughts, emotions, and other energies are. When we die, these "energies" (aka personality components) are no longer given off as they can only be given off through a living vessel. That is why Solomon could say that a man's very thoughts perish. In the resurrection who knows, maybe the resurrected bodies will be given these components back. But regardless, those component are not the soul, just a part of the living soul.
I generally agree with you but I do have some reservations on grounding that belief in Solomon's observation. As I am sure you and all readers are aware, some Bible author's say things that we know are their own "opinion" and are not true. Examples:

1. Job asserts that "once you die, you are gone forever" - we know this is false.
2. Solomon opines that "all is vanity" - we know that this, too, if false.

No doubt some readers will be very uncomfortable with the broader implications of what I am saying since, if I am right, this makes discerning Biblical truth even more difficult than it otherwise is.
 
I think Drew is saying what the OT says: God breathed into the body of man and man then became a soul.
thats one WORD of five for soul in hebrew. as animals have souls see revalation

for the third of living souls in the sea(not in ships) died. hmm

give me a sec.

from chabad.org. and yes ruach is still used(the holy spirit is called ruach kodoesh)

But it is the human soul that is both the most complex and the most lofty of souls. Our sages have said: "She is called by five names: Nefesh (soul), Ruach (spirit), Neshamah (breath), Chayah (life) and Yechidah (singularity)."2 The Chassidic masters explain that the soul's five "names" actually describe five levels or dimensions of the soul. Nefesh is the soul as the engine of physical life. Ruach is the emotional self and "personality." Neshamah is the intellectual self. Chayah is the supra-rational self--the seat of will, desire, commitment and faith. Yechidah connotes the essence of the soul--its unity with its source, the singular essence of G-d. For the essence of the soul of man is "literally a part of G-d above"3--a piece of G-d in us, so to speak.

sound familiar to us? its should much of this has been taught to me and you all.
 
I would suggest that 'dualism' is not biblical as Drew implies, because Paul speaks of us in a triune way..

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
I would suggest that 'dualism' is not biblical as Drew implies, because Paul speaks of us in a triune way..

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
There is probably a misunderstanding between us. From your post (brief though it is),and from the prevailing Christian opinion on this matter, I get the impression that you believe that either or the "soul" or the "spirit" can survive the death of the body and still retain consciousness. It is this view that I am actually challenging.
 
There is probably a misunderstanding between us. From your post (brief though it is),and from the prevailing Christian opinion on this matter, I get the impression that you believe that either or the "soul" or the "spirit" can survive the death of the body and still retain consciousness. It is this view that I am actually challenging.

The scriptures do speak of our spirit returning to God who gave it.. right ?

We also know that God will bring with Him those who have died in Christ.. and we also read that their bodies rise first, and then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the LORD in the air..

To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.. right ?
 

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Back
Top