Butch5
Member
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Paul's Eschatological Model of Justification
- Thread starter Drew
- Start date
Butch5
Member
Hey Drew,
There are also Jame's words,
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (Jas. 2:14-22 KJV)
This passage is translated to fit a Reformed position, however, What James actually said is, 'I will show you my faith out of me works'. He uses the Greek word "ek" which means "out of." It's also used in the sense of "source". John says believers are 'born of God' or born "ek" God. God is the source of their life. James says that his faith comes "ek" his works, they come out of his works or his works are the source of his faith. Either way he agrees with Paul in the Romans 2 passage that you quoted.
I submit that the modern, "not of works" doctrine is a complete misunderstanding of what Paul writes on works. The sad part is that many buy into that argument and some may live a life that is not holy thinking that the way they live doesn't really matter.
There are also Jame's words,
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (Jas. 2:14-22 KJV)
This passage is translated to fit a Reformed position, however, What James actually said is, 'I will show you my faith out of me works'. He uses the Greek word "ek" which means "out of." It's also used in the sense of "source". John says believers are 'born of God' or born "ek" God. God is the source of their life. James says that his faith comes "ek" his works, they come out of his works or his works are the source of his faith. Either way he agrees with Paul in the Romans 2 passage that you quoted.
I submit that the modern, "not of works" doctrine is a complete misunderstanding of what Paul writes on works. The sad part is that many buy into that argument and some may live a life that is not holy thinking that the way they live doesn't really matter.
Drew
Member
I will have to take your word for this and will add that translation from the original does indeed allow for the possibility of distorting the meaning. I suspect that most here would only go so far as to claim the original text is inspired and inerrant. I can think of a number of examples where meaning gets muddied in the act of translation. Consider this text from Romans:
But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ[d] for all who believe [Romans 3:21-22 NRSV]
See the little superscript [d]? Well the associated note says (I add emphasis)
"Or through the faith of Jesus Christ"
Huge, huge difference.
Butch5
Member
Hi Drew,
I've discussed this passage with a people in the past. I have had some claim that it is saying Jesus had faith. I should submit that the "faith of Jesus Christ" is the Gospel message. We often here of the "Christian faith" as one of other belief systems. I believe that the "faith of Jesus Christ" is being used in this same way.
smaller
Member
Did. Are we saved by works? Uh, no. Scriptures already provided.
smaller
Member
No believer does any work (good or bad) apart from Christ, in them. So where ya wanna go with that angle?
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Drew
Member
From the overall context of Romans, I believe the correct translation would be the "faithfulness of Jesus Christ", with the implied meaning, again drawn from the broader context of the whole letter, that what Jesus has been faithful to is Israel's covenantal obligation to be a blessing to the nations. Now you may wonder what I am talking about, and getting into all this would be a tangent, but I am happy to deal with it, perhaps in some other thread.
Butch5
Member
(This portion of this post removed. You partially quoted the other member, leaving out the scriptural support he gave because you disagree with his interpretation of this scripture. Then you accused him of violating the A&T guidelines by not providing scripture. This is a violation of ToS 2.4: "It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member." Obadiah.)
I'm not sure why you posted these passages as they address justification by faith. We are discussing justification via works, these passages have nothing to do with that.
However, given this post, should I assume that you only believe part of the Scriptures? After all, I posted the passage where James says that Abraham was justified by works.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (Jas. 2:24 KJV)
Notice that James refutes the argument that one is justified by faith alone. It was a Reformation teaching that taught faith alone, not the Scriptures.
I'm not sure why you posted these passages as they address justification by faith. We are discussing justification via works, these passages have nothing to do with that.
However, given this post, should I assume that you only believe part of the Scriptures? After all, I posted the passage where James says that Abraham was justified by works.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (Jas. 2:24 KJV)
Notice that James refutes the argument that one is justified by faith alone. It was a Reformation teaching that taught faith alone, not the Scriptures.
Last edited by a moderator:
Butch5
Member
I'm not sure what you mean by covenant obligation.
smaller
Member
(Edited, this portion was a response to a portion of a post that has been removed. Obadiah)
There is no "believer" alone, that does any work. Christ is in their heart.
I have every reason to believe that the Spirit of Christ was within the heart of Abraham as well.
The intent seems to be to see only the believer. What I'm observing is that isn't the case. And that both good and evil transpire in every believer. I've cited scripture at some length on the adverse sides of the ledgers in this thread as well.
There is no "believer" alone, that does any work. Christ is in their heart.
I have every reason to believe that the Spirit of Christ was within the heart of Abraham as well.
The intent seems to be to see only the believer. What I'm observing is that isn't the case. And that both good and evil transpire in every believer. I've cited scripture at some length on the adverse sides of the ledgers in this thread as well.
Last edited by a moderator:
Obadiah
Member
This thread is beginning to take on the tone of a personal argument and I have removed some of that. If this direction continues I will permanently close the entire thread. A word to the wise is sufficient.
Each statement must be based on scripture that is referenced. A vague reference to some previous post where the scripture is referenced doesn't satisfy this requirement because it is not fair to other members to make them search the entire thread and then have to guess at which scripture you are referring to. You don't have to paste the entire scripture in each post, but you must at least give the chapter and verse reference. Each post must stand on it's own in this regard.
Each statement must be based on scripture that is referenced. A vague reference to some previous post where the scripture is referenced doesn't satisfy this requirement because it is not fair to other members to make them search the entire thread and then have to guess at which scripture you are referring to. You don't have to paste the entire scripture in each post, but you must at least give the chapter and verse reference. Each post must stand on it's own in this regard.
Drew
Member
This particular text, seen in its larger context, supports the notion of final salvation based on good works:
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:29-30, NASB]
To write that we are predestined to become "conformed to the image of the Son" can be very legitimately taken as implying that we are essentially set on a path that leads us to become progressively more Christ-like, and therefore certainly transformed into the kind of person who will "persist in doing good", per the following:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
I suspect your argument is that "justification" in the above is in the past tense. Well, indeed it is, but you still have to deal with what Paul writes in Romans 2 about a future awarding of eternal life based on works (the Romans 2 passage, immediately above). So I think it is entirely reasonable to say that here in Romans 8, Paul speaks of justification having already been achieved not because there will not be a future good works judgment - forcing us to come up with awkward explanations for why he wrote Romans 2:6-7 - but precisely because the Spirit will most assuredly bring about the transformation to Christ-likeness that is needed to perform the good works, provided, of course, that we do not choose to fall away. Paul is anticipating the outcome of that future works judgment when he writes of us having already been justified. I believe this anticipatory mode of speaking is a pattern that is there throughout the Scriptures, and I may address this in later posts.
smaller
Member
I would love to think that believers only do good works. But in all honesty, can we trot out only good works, and ignore the fact that we remain factual sinners, which sin being bad works? There is no scale here where one offsets the other. I need only observe the truth of scriptures that Paul conveys about himself, proving outright that he is a sinner, ruling over same, but a sinner, nevertheless. There is no scale here, where one will offset the other. I've cited, and will cite again, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, and 1 Tim. 1:15 to point to Paul's factual condition as a sinner. There doesn't seem to be any illusions put forth by Paul that any amounts of good works offsets the facts that he was a sinner, and us, likewise. Therefore his Gospel landed directly on unmerited Grace, and the need for Divine Mercy, ever needful, I might see, at least for me, when I follow in the scriptural footsteps he laid out above.
I don't doubt one bit that Grace leads us directly away from external sin works. No believer in their right mind will step, knowingly, into the trap of evil and sin. Grace does lead in that way, and for our own good I might add. But the heart of sin is a much deeper matter, whereby not only Paul, but Jesus, examines sin and evil on an internal basis, because it is within, factually, always. This exists in the form of an evil or adverse conscience, that we are constantly engaging. The battle has always been an internal battle. I cited earlier, and will cite again, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23 where Jesus shows us that it is evil thoughts that defile us. I would not be reluctant to say that every believer deals with this internal problem regardless of what happens on the outside. Paul says no differently in Romans 7:7-13, where he shows his mind working adversely, internally with lust. And yes, this is the basis of his determining, what Jesus already told us, that evil does come from within in the form of evil thoughts, just as it did with Paul in that scripture set, proving that "evil was in fact present with him" in Romans 7:21.
You and I have danced around this subject at length in the past, but I think Paul was just entirely brutally honest, and not a hypocrite, in his own internal examinations. And in that sight did assuredly not try to justify this "evil present" within him, and moved on to understanding unmerited Grace and faith in Christ from this basis, as I have proven Paul's positional statements to myself, internally, in trying to probe the depths of my own internal evil thoughts which I assuredly for many years, tried to rid myself of, in my prideful quest as a sin hunter, wanting to stamp out every evil, outside first, then within, which is where it lead to. I have come to know and understand His Grace based on my own personal failures. And it was then, that Paul's scriptural wisdom unfolded for me to understand. When I stood, vainly and repeatedly trying to justify myself, I never heard Paul. My own hypocrisy was blocking my hearing. No, my "evil present" in the form of "evil thoughts" is not going away, nor will I any longer try to hide or justify that working before God in Christ. I stand therefore always in dire dire need of God in Christ's Grace and Mercy. My own evil makes me appreciate Jesus and His Grace and Mercy even more, and more, and more. This is the Grace that Leads. It is not some abstract mumbo jumbo educational matter, but a very real problem of sin and my very real need of Him. I would never try to justify myself, as it is impossible in the light shed on sin indwelling the flesh.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Yes! If we could just stop right there, there would be nothing between us to even have friction about. I just can't fall headlong into trying to justify a vile body, because I HOPE to be rid of it permanently, in His Resurrection. Paul tells us all the conditions of our present planting in 1 Cor. 15:43-49. I accept His Conditions of planting as very real present matters. If we examine them, even in brief, we'll easily find these truths, that we are in fact planted in "weakness" "dishonor" "corruption" and a natural body. I have no hope for these conditions, nor do I expect these conditions to change and be anything other than what they really are. Trying to prove them otherwise is vanity and futility.
I detailed exactly how Paul sees this matter, and used Paul's depiction of himself in 2 Cor. 12:7. Paul deploys this identical depiction, again in Gal. 4:14 showing temptations in his flesh, in Gal. 4:9, and again, most succinctly imho, here:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
There is no remedy or making peace, between these two as they are meant to be against each others.
If anything, as The Spirit grows and prospers, the flesh will get even weaker. And Paul shows this exact end game on himself, in 1 Tim. 1:15, showing, after salvation, that he "is" the chief of sinners. I see this as Paul's flesh struggling with "lusts" as the tempter never ceased his adverse manners upon the flesh of Paul, yet Paul, through Grace and Mercy, REIGNED over his enemy, to the end.
Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Paul didn't say he didn't have this sin indwelling his mortal body to contend with, because he did contend.
There will be no justification of the flesh, because of the presence of sin therein, which I have no issues linking with the devil, the tempter, in the flesh. Romans 3:20, Gal. 3:16. No amount of works is able or capable of justifying or eradicating sin in the flesh. There is a factual adverse tension there that can't be resolved, either scripturally, or in reality.
It is this very contention that pushes us headlong into Christ.
Drew
Member
No one, least of all me is claiming that we do not continue to sin, but Paul wrote what he wrote:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
Let's be clear: You have been repeatedly asked to explain what Paul meant by these words, but you have not answered.
You seem to think that we need to be sinless to get eternal life. Well, that's not what Paul wrote - he writes of a "persistence", a "seeking".
Again, the fundamental issue is that here in Romans 2, and elsewhere as well, Paul writes of eternal life being granted according to good works. Those who, like you, do not believe this need to explain precisely why Paul wrote these particular words.
So I give you the opportunity once more to do so.
Drew
Member
Let's look at these two texts:
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. [Romans 3:20, NASB]
Is Paul contradicting what he wrote in the previous chapter?:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
No, he is not. Here in 3:20, he is writing to challenge the Jewish belief that performing the practices of the Law of Moses - a code that was given to Jews only - justifies the Jew. Paul is not challenging what he has just affirmed in Romans 2:6-7 - that good deeds matter unto eternal life - he is telling the Jew he (the Jew) cannot expect to be justified just because he (the Jew) does the things the Law of Moses prescribes.
Now to Galatians 3:16:
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ [Galatians 3:16, NASB]
Can you explain how you see this as challenging what Paul writes in Romans 2 about a future good works-based judgment with eternal life at stake?
smaller
Member
I'm going into this exercise one more time. I detailed this, clearly, prior.
Here is Paul, on earth, in flesh:
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
There are two parties present in the above. Paul, and the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul.
Paul was saved. The messenger of Satan, not. Paul was awarded eternal life, based on the merits of Grace through faith in Christ, which he could not lose. And the messenger of Satan will answer for every adverse evil that messenger made in the flesh of Paul and WILL land permanently IN HELL forever.
This is the Judgment of the TWO parties. It is the identical depiction that Paul provided in Romans 9:18-24 and again, in 2 Tim. 2:20-21, showing that it is 'we' who must divide and purge ourselves of the "other vessel" in order to not be ruled and reigned over, while we are here, in the flesh.
Pretty hilarious. I've never made such a claim here, ever. Only the opposite. Nice try though. If you can show me one post where I ever said that a believer in the flesh made themselves sinless in the 12 years I've posted here, you're welcome to trot it out.
I have no issues with Romans 2. One, the believer will be saved on the Sole Merits of faith in Christ's sufficiency to save them, and the messenger of Satan, the tempter, operating in the flesh of all believers via temptations and lusts, will provide an answer in the judgment for such actions, and fail at the end, for every sin in every believer, and will land in hell forever for it.
There are the two measures of Divine Judgments. These measures are fixed. One for the believer, and one for the works of the tempter in the flesh. There is no way to condemn the believer. There will be no justification for the tempter (or any of his own) who operate in the flesh.
And I give you the opportunity, once more, to read what's been said, at length. Every thought will be examined in the final judgment of every believer. Evil thoughts will be found. Even evil actions. There will be no mixing of the two parties. The tempter operates in the flesh, and those who are led and deceived by same are his pawns. But in the end, they will go free, and their captor, uh, no, not so much. The messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul, will pay the price of adverse permanent judgment. Paul however did not, and will not.
Drew
Member
OK let's get into this. Here is the text at issue again:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
[Romans 2;6-7, NIV]
You say "the believer will be saved on the Sole Merits of faith in Christ's sufficiency to save them".
Paul writes:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life"
Now: please tell us how you reconcile these two assertions about salvation.