Plaguing questions on an ambitous mind...

[Drew]

Now, you must be screaming, “but that’s works! It’s not of works lest any man should boast!†What Jesus preached was good works, plain and simple. That is the way to inherit eternal life because he told us so, and either you believe him or you don’t, plain and simple.

This objection that you refer to is, I think, based on a misunderstanding of what Paul meant when he made a number of "you are saved by grace and not works" statements. For reasons that I will not go into in the present post, I think that Paul never sets grace against good works as so many seem to believe. How could he, given this statement from Romans 2:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

I suggest that by "works", Paul is referring to those acts of Torah which set the Jew apart from his pagan neighbours - things like circmcision, Sabbath, purity laws, and others. It helps to realize that a major reason why Paul wrote Romans was to get the Jewish Christians in the Roman church to get along with the Gentile Christians in the Roman church. To do this, he needed to argue that you are all one family - being Jewish does not make you any more or less of a family member. So, quite naturally, Paul reiterates that covenant membership - being in the true family of God - is not a matter of having the trappings of Torah.

I do not believe Paul ever sets grace in opposition to moral good works - he sets in opposition to "possession of Torah".

 

[unred typo]

Now, you must be screaming, “but that’s works! It’s not of works lest any man should boast!†What Jesus preached was good works, plain and simple. That is the way to inherit eternal life because he told us so, and either you believe him or you don’t, plain and simple.

This objection that you refer to is, I think, based on a misunderstanding of what Paul meant when he made a number of "you are saved by grace and not works" statements. For reasons that I will not go into in the present post, I think that Paul never sets grace against good works as so many seem to believe. How could he, given this statement from Romans 2:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

I suggest that by "works", Paul is referring to those acts of Torah which set the Jew apart from his pagan neighbours - things like circmcision, Sabbath, purity laws, and others. It helps to realize that a major reason why Paul wrote Romans was to get the Jewish Christians in the Roman church to get along with the Gentile Christians in the Roman church. To do this, he needed to argue that you are all one family - being Jewish does not make you any more or less of a family member. So, quite naturally, Paul reiterates that covenant membership - being in the true family of God - is not a matter of having the trappings of Torah.

I do not believe Paul ever sets grace in opposition to moral good works - he sets in opposition to "possession of Torah".

This makes so much sense in every aspect, it’s difficult to understand why it is so hard to get people to accept it. Historically, theologically, logically, and scripturally it answers all the enigmas that other paradigms create. Why is that, Drew? :-? :smt102 :smt017

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Typo,
What you believe is coming a lot clearer. Just one question remains at the moment.
Why do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?

 

[unred typo]

Typo,
What you believe is coming a lot clearer. Just one question remains at the moment.
Why do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?

I'm assuming that by that question you mean why is Christ's death necessary if we are supposed to follow Christ and do good works for our own salvation?

I’ve answered that several times and several ways but I really don’t want you to miss it. Just so you don’t get confused, the ones that say “the blood of Christ†are talking about his death on the cross, not the time he cut himself shaving or something.

Here are a few things I have written already:

1)We don’t have to do the dozens of rites and rituals connected with the Old Laws for the sacrificial system. That doesn’t mean that the New covenant doesn’t include blood or a sacrifice. It’s the blood of the savior, not an animal. It’s called a new and living way because the Holy Spirit takes the blood and applies it to our sins as we repent and confess them and the Lord ever lives to make intercession for us.

2) Look at the plan. First, a perfect substitute father of mankind had to be found. Since there were none perfect, God gave his ‘word’ to come to be born of a woman, live a sinless life and tell all about how to inherit eternal life. So we are saved by the gift of his son. At the end of his ministry, all of man’s sins were placed on him and he died for those sins. So we are saved by his death on the cross.

3)Do you see that God didn’t need our good deeds and he wasn’t required to make a way of salvation for us at all? He did it because of his great love for all his creation, and he desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and walk in love so that he can save them by means of the blood of Christ.

4)The blood of Christ is a gift, and salvation is a gift that is given to those who are in Christ because they follow Christ, not because God has to save them but because he loves us and made this way available to those who believe in him and obey him.

5)That’s the point I was making here. They lived without the knowledge of even the name of Jesus yet the death and blood of Christ saved them. Why won’t the same principle apply to those today who have never heard the name of Jesus, yet follow their God-given consciences as Abram and the OT saints did?

6)It didn’t remove the sin, it just covered it until the time when Christ would take it away.
Hebrews 10:3-4
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

7)The sacrificial system of the Jews was given to prepare them to understand how the sacrifice of Christ would be used to pay for the sin of the world. The blood of sheep and goats didn’t remove sin either. Only the blood of the sacrifice of Christ removes our sin. His blood only had to be offered once to pay for all confessed sins. The Spirit applies the blood of Christ to all sins that are repented of, whether it was two thousand before Christ died or two thousand years after.

8)Sure, Jesus is the only way that our sins could be removed to enable us to be saved. Lot will be saved by the blood of Christ, even though he lived before Christ.

9)Show me the prescribed way that was set by Christ, Josh. You will see that it is by love for God and fellow man, and forgiveness for others who have wronged us, faith in his blood, sacrifice for others less fortunate, humility, godliness and holiness, without which, no man shall see the Lord. IOW, we will be saved by the blood but still judged by our works, Josh, but not in “the prescribed way†that has been taught in today‘s ‘grace alone’ churches.

10)Think about it. If we walk in the light of love, the Spirit of God cleanses us from all sin in the blood of Christ.

11)The truth is that God is love and in him is no darkness at all. If we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Christ removes all this darkness. If we hold on to feelings of hate and vengeance, we are not walking in the light. If we are lusting after evil things, we are allowing evil to darken our path, we will stumble more and more. We are grieving the Spirit whenever we are holding onto the sins that he wants to erase from us.

Ok, that should be enough to get you started. These are just from this thread alone. Have you been reading my posts with your eyes closed? :-D

 

[Drew]

Typo,
What you believe is coming a lot clearer. Just one question remains at the moment.
Why do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?

I know this question was not directed at me, but I would like to take a crack at it, based on what I admit is only an assumption about where you are coming from.

One reason why Jesus died on the cross was to "condemn sin" as per Romans 8:3 and following:

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

I suspect that many come to the issue of the atonement with the belief it is an event that occurs in some "abstract judicial space" somewhere "up there in the air". I suggest that things might be a lot more "physical" and "earthy" than this. We know that when Adam fell, sin tainted all creation - I think this means that a very physical sense that we do not perhaps yet understand, the very "fabric" of all creation, including humans of course, was tainted or contaminated.

God has a plan to solve this. It is the Abrahamic covenant. God gives Israel the Law in order to "lure" sin into the nation of Israel. I know this is a controversial claim. I will not defend it in this post. Then, this "lured sin" - almost a physical quantity - is concentrated into the flesh one person - the faithful Messiah Jesus Christ. And there he condemns it - "breaks its power" in some way. The Spirit is then given.

So I tend to think of Jesus' death as having a "restoration of creation" function - a "get rid of the sin virus" function if you will - and not only a "judicial" function. The nature of the atonenment is, of course, a central item of theology. And I am literally "thinking on the fly" here, so I am not pretending to have a "complete system". I do think one cannot, repeat cannot, look at the atonement without some notion of "forgiveness of sin" over and above the "breaking the power of sin" idea I have mentioned.

But my thinking is this: When the power of sin is broken and the Spirit given, God makes it indeed possible for us to be justified as he says we will be in Romans 2:7

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

In fact, he gives us assurance that we will be so justified (this is where I may deviate from unred, with whom I otherwise share many points of agreement). I need to carefully qualify what I mean by "assurance", but that is for another post.

I do not want to "hide" from the controversial aspect of my position on this - as if that were possible. I will clearly suggest that the Scriptures do not teach that the death of Christ wipes away the consequences of all future sins that we might undertake. Paul (and Jesus) clearly teach that we will be justified at the end by the content of our lives as lived. Jesus teaches this in the sheep and goats passage in Matthew, Paul teaches it in Romans 2:7.

However, I would say that if we have "faith" (and again you all deserve a further explanation of what I mean by this, but I want to keep this post from getting out of control), then the action of the Spirit ensures that we exhibit the works we need to be justified.

So, I will claim that we are indeed "justified by faith" after all, and will prepare for the onslaught of claims that I contradicting myself.

I think that the position that at some point in time ("conversion") all sins past and future are wiped clean is neat, tidy, and appealing in its simplicity. However, I am coming to believe that the Scriptures do not teach such a simple solution. Trust me, I kind of wish that they did.

In fact, as I have stated in another post, one of the vulnerabilities of this position that I have to come to believe in is its complexity. People, including myself, can legitimately ask "How can justification be so complex?".

 

[unred typo]

Drew wrote:
In fact, as I have stated in another post, one of the vulnerabilities of this position that I have to come to believe in is its complexity. People, including myself, can legitimately ask "How can justification be so complex?".

We make it complex, Drew. All we have to do is follow the Holy Spirit in our hearts, love and forgive one another and the whole justification, sanctification, and any other ‘ations’ will be done for us. We only have to repent of our sins and continue to walk in the way Christ leads us. We don’t have to pay for our sin or figure out how to get it onto Christ and off of us. We don’t even have to figure out how the Holy Spirit does it. Toss all your theology books in the dumpster. If we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Go toward the light, Drew….:

 

[unred typo]

Typo,
What you believe is coming a lot clearer. Just one question remains at the moment.
Why do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?

You asking such a question is like a reporter running up to a winning race car driver and asking him, “How did you win the race?†and the driver gives him a detailed account of all the strategies that he employed to get him the winning advantage, and then the reporter says, “Just one question remains at the moment. Exactly why did you need a car then?â€Â

At that point the driver says, "huh?" :crazyeyes:

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Typo,
What you believe is coming a lot clearer. Just one question remains at the moment.
Why do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?

You asking such a question is like a reporter running up to a winning race car driver and asking him, “How did you win the race?†and the driver gives him a detailed account of all the strategies that he employed to get him the winning advantage, and then the reporter says, “Just one question remains at the moment. Exactly why did you need a car then?â€Â

At that point the driver says, "huh?" :crazyeyes:

Nah. It is just starting to look like you are doing driving with a chauffeur in the back seat.

 

[unred typo]

Gabbylittleangel wrote:

Unred said: You asking such a question is like a reporter running up to a winning race car driver and asking him, “How did you win the race?†and the driver gives him a detailed account of all the strategies that he employed to get him the winning advantage, and then the reporter says, “well, exactly why did you need your car then?â€Â


“Nah. It is just starting to look like you are doing driving with a chauffeur in the back seat.â€Â

Well, Gabby, It’s quite apparent from this flippant comment that you believe that Jesus Christ is your servant and not vice versa. Dying for your sins was not enough for you, was it? He has to be your chauffer, and drive you to your mansion, too? You’re in for a rude awakening, missy.


Well, since I couldn't make it easy for you, here's the long version, again:

Typo,
What you believe is coming a lot clearer. Just one question remains at the moment.
Why do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?

I'm assuming that by that question you mean why is Christ's death necessary if we are supposed to follow Christ and do good works for our own salvation?

I’ve answered that several times and several ways but I really don’t want you to miss it. Just so you don’t get confused, the ones that say “the blood of Christ†are talking about his death on the cross, not the time he cut himself shaving or something.

Here are a few things I have written already:

1)We don’t have to do the dozens of rites and rituals connected with the Old Laws for the sacrificial system. That doesn’t mean that the New covenant doesn’t include blood or a sacrifice. It’s the blood of the savior, not an animal. It’s called a new and living way because the Holy Spirit takes the blood and applies it to our sins as we repent and confess them and the Lord ever lives to make intercession for us.

2) Look at the plan. First, a perfect substitute father of mankind had to be found. Since there were none perfect, God gave his ‘word’ to come to be born of a woman, live a sinless life and tell all about how to inherit eternal life. So we are saved by the gift of his son. At the end of his ministry, all of man’s sins were placed on him and he died for those sins. So we are saved by his death on the cross.

3)Do you see that God didn’t need our good deeds and he wasn’t required to make a way of salvation for us at all? He did it because of his great love for all his creation, and he desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and walk in love so that he can save them by means of the blood of Christ.

4)The blood of Christ is a gift, and salvation is a gift that is given to those who are in Christ because they follow Christ, not because God has to save them but because he loves us and made this way available to those who believe in him and obey him.

5)That’s the point I was making here. They lived without the knowledge of even the name of Jesus yet the death and blood of Christ saved them. Why won’t the same principle apply to those today who have never heard the name of Jesus, yet follow their God-given consciences as Abram and the OT saints did?

6)It didn’t remove the sin, it just covered it until the time when Christ would take it away.
Hebrews 10:3-4
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

7)The sacrificial system of the Jews was given to prepare them to understand how the sacrifice of Christ would be used to pay for the sin of the world. The blood of sheep and goats didn’t remove sin either. Only the blood of the sacrifice of Christ removes our sin. His blood only had to be offered once to pay for all confessed sins. The Spirit applies the blood of Christ to all sins that are repented of, whether it was two thousand before Christ died or two thousand years after.

8)Sure, Jesus is the only way that our sins could be removed to enable us to be saved. Lot will be saved by the blood of Christ, even though he lived before Christ.

9)Show me the prescribed way that was set by Christ, Josh. You will see that it is by love for God and fellow man, and forgiveness for others who have wronged us, faith in his blood, sacrifice for others less fortunate, humility, godliness and holiness, without which, no man shall see the Lord. IOW, we will be saved by the blood but still judged by our works, Josh, but not in “the prescribed way†that has been taught in today‘s ‘grace alone’ churches.

10)Think about it. If we walk in the light of love, the Spirit of God cleanses us from all sin in the blood of Christ.

11)The truth is that God is love and in him is no darkness at all. If we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Christ removes all this darkness. If we hold on to feelings of hate and vengeance, we are not walking in the light. If we are lusting after evil things, we are allowing evil to darken our path, we will stumble more and more. We are grieving the Spirit whenever we are holding onto the sins that he wants to erase from us.

Ok, that should be enough to get you started. These are just from this thread alone. Have you been reading my posts with your eyes closed? :-?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Well, Gabby, It’s quite apparent from this flippant comment that you believe that Jesus Christ is your servant and not vice versa. Dying for your sins was not enough for you, was it? He has to be your chauffer, and drive you to your mansion, too? You’re in for a rude awakening, missy.

Typo, I was bouncing off of your car and driver picture. How is it that you come up swinging? That was rude, childish, way off base, and the simple fact that I ask you a question does not mean that I don't have the answer. I have the answer, I am trying to show you how you have contradicted yourself by believing that salvation is a free gift that you have to pay for. Asking you why Jesus died on the cross, was another way of asking you how much you have to pay for something if it is a free gift, or one of a dozen other ways of trying to get you to see how your doctrines just don't add up. Your doctrines are not square on the foundations of the Christian faith.


As for:

Ok, that should be enough to get you started. These are just from this thread alone. Have you been reading my posts with your eyes closed? :-?

I think I will be skimming past them from now on. By the way, I am sure that My Lord, the God of all Creation, of whom I serve, will appreciate the way that you have defended Him against me.
Blessings.

My apologies to the op. This thread has gone way off topic.

 

[cyberjosh]

Unred,

I've paid attention to your posts and I've seen your ample defense of your position and your lengthy posts, and I don't find myself disagreeing much. We have already agreed and talked about how I agree on how works work and fit in our Christian walk, so the long posts addressing that are not an issue for me. Now when I then went back further and pointed out that your line of discussion was banking on an Amazon Jungle type analogy, you seemed to agree and say it was induced by Gabby's H.P. scenario, which was fine in that context. However since your last post to me where you tried to explain your position where you disagred with Me and Handy, it seems to all go back to MEC's arguement, which was pushing the rare (as I have said in my previous posts) Amazon Jungle approach to salvation (and applying it to salvation as a whole it seems - which I then strongly objected too, and I still do) much before Gabby even introduced the H.P., therefore MEC was pushing a questionable and rare scenario and tried to apply it broadly, which I disagree with. I will try to explain below.

Will we be saved by our works? If God judges them worthy of eternal life, he will reward us with eternal life. It’s going to be according to his judgment, his mercy and by his grace that we will be saved or not, regardless of how much we say ‘Lord, Lord’ and demand that we are worthy because we followed the prescribed ‘plan of salvation’ authorized by our particular denomination or whether we did all kinds of good works or not. He is going to judge us by our heart’s motives, just as MEC said, and Jesus said and Paul said and the Bible says, and what I agreed with.

Yes all Christians will be judged on their works, whether good or bad (1 Cor. 3:10-15), but those that will be judged for salvation on their consciences alone will be the rare Amazon Jungle profile people. I object to advocating pro-conscience (that's what "moral" atheists do to justify their lifestyles BTW) over following explicit dedication to Christ - and MEC says we don't even know if doing such a thing is necessary! That is againt the Gospel of Christ! Were not told to spread the good news of following God in good conscience, but the Good News of Christ and walking with him, and we are told to set our hope in Him. I'm not talking about dogma of works versus faith, I'm talking about what the Christian life is. Will those Amazonians who by nature obey the law, when even God's people the Jews who know the law are lost, be saved if they never hear of Christ and live according to their conscience - yes indeed I believe it, as Romans says, but this is not to be a model for Christians who are less ignorant than these.

Just like you were saying that it is a sad thing for some to just be saved and then say 'hallelujah' I'm saved, I get a better mansion and salvation, I'm good - and never move past that - then living in the 'freedom of conscience' unilluminated by the revelation of the word (we are lucky to have the Bible - for it is God's inspired revelation to us - and the Spirit can enlighten our minds and change us by the hearing and reading of the Word - that we may grow in it) is equally sad if one uses conscience as a sole guide over graciously revealed revelation. It smacks of anomia to me, like a justification for another way than following Christ in the knowledge of Him (one of Paul's Chief goals, if not the very 'mark' he pressed toward [Phil. Ch. 3]), and even Paul said that with his conscience he knew nothing against himself, yet by that he was not justified (1 Corinthians 4:4).

Please, oh please, tell me you understand what I am trying to tell you. You have to understand what I am defending about the Gospel, this is important.

I look forward to your reply.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

quote by cybershark5886 :
I've paid attention to your posts and I've seen your ample defense of your position and your lengthy posts, and I don't find myself disagreeing much. We have already agreed and talked about how I agree on how works work and fit in our Christian walk, so the long posts addressing that are not an issue for me.

You have been very patient and I believe that you do read my posts and try to understand where I am coming from here. I appreciate that and I also don’t mind taking time to type out these horribly long, (sorry, I’m not a very succinct writer) detailed replies and read your responses.

quote by cybershark5886 :
Now when I then went back further and pointed out that your line of discussion was banking on an Amazon Jungle type analogy, you seemed to agree and say it was induced by Gabby's H.P. scenario, which was fine in that context. However since your last post to me where you tried to explain your position where you disagred with Me and Handy, it seems to all go back to MEC's arguement, which was pushing the rare (as I have said in my previous posts) Amazon Jungle approach to salvation (and applying it to salvation as a whole it seems - which I then strongly objected too, and I still do) much before Gabby even introduced the H.P., therefore MEC was pushing a questionable and rare scenario and tried to apply it broadly, which I disagree with. I will try to explain below.

I guess the thing is, Josh, is that I see the Spirit as a real individual entity who speaks to not just you and me and those who seek his will, but to every person in the world, not just the church goers or jungle dwellers. The Holy Spirit isn’t limited to the Bible or a preacher or a church program. What we understand may be narrow but he does work broadly. It’s not rare or questionable that the Holy Spirit works with every person to bring them to a knowledge and acceptance of the truth. There won’t be many that find it because even when the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.

But God is not unwilling or weak. He is the good shepherd who goes out to find the lost ones, and not just those who haven‘t been reached by missionaries. There are those everywhere who have heard the gospel but the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches or fame or addictions, choke out the word. When the church gives up, the Spirit meets them where they are and leads them to repentance. If they refuse to come, it is not because he has failed to speak to them, but because they are stubborn and rebellious and self-willed and love evil. Once a person has totally embraced evil, there is not much that can bring them around, I believe, short of a miracle brought about by the faith and prayers of some loved one.

quote by cybershark5886 :
Yes all Christians will be judged on their works, whether good or bad (1 Cor. 3:10-15), but those that will be judged for salvation on their consciences alone will be the rare Amazon Jungle profile people. I object to advocating pro-conscience (that's what "moral" atheists do to justify their lifestyles BTW) over following explicit dedication to Christ - and MEC says we don't even know if doing such a thing is necessary! That is againt the Gospel of Christ!

I do understand your reservations about tossing the baby out with the bathwater here. Especially when the baby is our own baby Jesus born in a manger. I don’t know exactly what MEC believes since I have only recently begun to read his posts in topics that I find compelling, and I can‘t speak for him as to what he meant. I know sometimes it is a simple omission for brevity that causes a misunderstanding in what the writer intended to say. Is MEC advocating that we don’t need Christ, or we don’t need the rituals of going to the altar, praying the sinner’s prayer, and saying the correct doctrinal words of some formula designed by a particular denomination?

quote by cybershark5886 :
Were not told to spread the good news of following God in good conscience, but the Good News of Christ and walking with him, and we are told to set our hope in Him. I'm not talking about dogma of works versus faith, I'm talking about what the Christian life is. Will those Amazonians who by nature obey the law, when even God's people the Jews who know the law are lost, be saved if they never hear of Christ and live according to their conscience - yes indeed I believe it, as Romans says, but this is not to be a model for Christians who are less ignorant than these.

Good question. I see what you are saying in that the Jews who rejected Christ, and those who even today reject him, could be lost while the ones who never heard of Christ can be saved for just following their conscience. Isn’t this what Paul was addressing in Romans chapter 11?

Romans 11:28-32
As concerning the gospel, they (Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as you in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The Gentiles who didn’t have the Jewish law, and may have rejected it because of the rituals involved with becoming a Jew, instead were following their conscience, which was a law written on their hearts by God. The ritual-minded Jew considered that they were lost heathens, having not followed the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish law. Then, Jesus came and turned the tables and showed how the law was not to be followed according to the letter but according to the spirit of the law, and to be followed, not outwardly, but inwardly, in true love and mercy toward others.

The very ceremonies that were intended to illustrate the person and mission of Christ became a stumbling block, similar to what some of the traditions in the catholic church have become to those who don’t see the spiritual meaning in the sacraments they perform, and do them as a ritual.

The protestant churches today also have made traditions that may become stumbling blocks to them. The altar call, the baptism, the Lord’s supper, the weekly worship service, the sinner’s prayer, etc., could all be turned into mere rituals.

quote by cybershark5886 :
Just like you were saying that it is a sad thing for some to just be saved and then say 'hallelujah' I'm saved, I get a better mansion and salvation, I'm good - and never move past that - then living in the 'freedom of conscience' unilluminated by the revelation of the word (we are lucky to have the Bible - for it is God's inspired revelation to us - and the Spirit can enlighten our minds and change us by the hearing and reading of the Word - that we may grow in it) is equally sad if one uses conscience as a sole guide over revealed revelation. It smacks of anomia to me, like a justification for another way than following Christ in the knowledge of Him (one of Paul's Chief goals, if not the very 'mark' he pressed toward [Phil. Ch. 3]), and even Paul said that he with his conscience he knew nothing against himself, yet by that he was not justified (1 Corinthians 4:4).

Our consciences can become dulled by our ignoring of the Spirit’s conviction, and calloused so they are not sensitive enough to be of very little use in leading us from evil, this is true. The Bible does not change and become faint from lack of use, but we have a way of just reading what we want to know and ignoring those things we don’t.

The Bible, as wonderful as it is, is no substitute for the actual Holy Spirit’s leading. As you say, the words of Christ and the Spirit of Christ work together to enlighten us. But if we never pick up the Bible, the Holy Spirit can still speak to us and we are taught of God to love one another. Even when we do immerse ourselves in the Bible, we can ignore the Lord’s words and concentrate on things that fill us with strange doctrines and elaborate theologies instead of the simplicity that is in Christ. Caught up with studies about the trinity, baptism, or history, etc, we can lose touch with the love that Christ taught us to develop between us and our brothers, our neighbors and even our enemies.

quote by cybershark5886 :
Please, oh please, tell me you understand what I am trying to tell you. You have to understand what I am defending about the Gospel, this is important.
I look forward to your reply.

I think I have a pretty good grasp of what you’re saying, but I’m not sure that what you are defending is the gospel as much as your tradition in the gospel presentation and your personal ideas on who is eligible for receiving the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can work on every heart, regardless of their knowledge of Christ, and they will be judged in the light of the knowledge that they have. To whom much is given, much will be expected.

You have to consider that sometimes, a person isn’t rejecting Christ as much as they are rejecting so-called Christians. The essential message a person must accept is that we must love one another, forgive as we have been forgiven by God, turn the other cheek, confess our sins and repent of any evil in our lives if we are going to inherit eternal life. That is briefly the word that was brought to us by Christ, that is the gospel that he preached, and the word that we are to sow.

Looking carefully at my last paragraph, did I mention Christ’s death? It was omitted for brevity. It’s actually included in my mind in the phrase, ‘forgive as we have been forgiven by God’ but if you didn‘t know my heart in this, you might think I didn‘t believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which made our forgiveness possible. So sometimes you have to read between the lines. I think maybe this is the case with MEC and not so much bad theology or even bad wording. Sometimes it is a toss-up between writing a shorter post that gets misunderstood or a longer one that gets a half-reading or doesn’t get read at all. :-? Don't you wish this one was shorter? :-D

 

[unred typo]

A quick review:
Gabbylittleangel: “Typo, What you believe is coming a lot clearer. Just one question remains at the moment. Why do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?â€Â

Unred: “You asking such a question is like a reporter running up to a winning race car driver and asking him, “How did you win the race?†and the driver gives him a detailed account of all the strategies that he employed to get him the winning advantage, and then the reporter says, “well, exactly why did you need your car then?â€Ââ€Â

Gabbylittleangel : “Nah. It is just starting to look like you are doing driving with a chauffeur in the back seat.â€Â

Unred: “It’s quite apparent from this flippant comment that you believe that Jesus Christ is your servant and not vice versa. Dying for your sins was not enough for you, was it? He has to be your chauffer, and drive you to your mansion, too? You’re in for a rude awakening, missy.â€Â

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
Typo, I was bouncing off of your car and driver picture. How is it that you come up swinging? That was rude, childish, way off base, and the simple fact that I ask you a question does not mean that I don't have the answer. I have the answer, I am trying to show you how you have contradicted yourself by believing that salvation is a free gift that you have to pay for. Asking you why Jesus died on the cross, was another way of asking you how much you have to pay for something if it is a free gift, or one of a dozen other ways of trying to get you to see how your doctrines just don't add up. Your doctrines are not square on the foundations of the Christian faith.

I don’t expect you to understand this, because it takes some careful discernment that you have admitted that you don’t intend to use. I don’t see that as a big change but let‘s try it anyways.

The simple fact is that you don’t have the answer and I haven’t contradicted myself at all. It is not that “Salvation is a free gift that you don’t have to pay for.†That is a false idea about the gospel. Not of works means that the whole plan of salvation is a plan that God designed and implemented out of his love for man, not because he wanted to employ us to do some good works for him that he needed doing for him down here on earth. Besides, he is our Lord and master and he can command us to do whatever he wants and not ever have to pay us anyways.

The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. That means we get eternal life, if we get it, through obeying our Lord Jesus Christ. When the word, ‘lord’ is used, it implies that the person is in charge and has lordship over another person who must obey them. Eternal life is still an undeserved gift even if you do good works to inherit it. Did your parents ever promise you a gift for doing your chores? The reason you can call it a gift, even though you still have to work for it, is because you didn’t really earn it, since you had to do your chores anyway and technically, your parents didn‘t have to give you anything for doing your duty.

My ‘doctrines’ are not square with what you want to believe, but they are spot on what Jesus taught.

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
As for:
unred typo wrote:
Ok, that should be enough to get you started. These are just from this thread alone. Have you been reading my posts with your eyes closed?


I think I will be skimming past them from now on.

And this is different how? I went back and pulled out almost a dozen paragraphs in answer to your question, and you have ignored the entire content of that post twice now.

quote by Gabbylittleangel: By the way, I am sure that My Lord, the God of all Creation, of whom I serve, will appreciate the way that you have defended Him against me.
Blessings.

Probably more than he appreciated your implication that he was just a chauffer and I should sit back and leave the driving to him.

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
My apologies to the op. This thread has gone way off topic.

I don’t think apologies are in order. This post was rather self-serving, but the topic of ‘how are we saved’ ties in fairly well. The OP had several questions, one of which was:

What happens to people of other faith when they die? Where do they go? Heaven or hell? And of other denominations?

That’s a pretty broad area to bounce around in and the original poster kind of left us to our own devises without any guidance here. IOW, he doesn’t seem to care what direction it went in. :-?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

A quick review:
This is what you wrote in your warped view thread. (Keep on thinking that I don't read if you want)

Some of you people think I have a warped view of works and grace. But, my view is biblical and unfortunately, yours is the warped one. (Those with closed minds may quit reading here)

Grace is how we are entitled to salvation, works is how we acquire it. God offers salvation freely to all men everywhere, not because of any merit on our part, but solely because of his great love and mercy. We work out that free salvation in order to receive it. We will be judged by the works we did in faith, because we believed in the words and work of Christ. ....

If your foundation of faith is not square on the cornerstone, and I can see that, there is little need or desire to climb up to the next level. Why would a building inspector check out the craftsmanship of a higher floor of a building when the issues of the foundation are still in question?

You said that "Grace is how we are entitled to salvation, works is how we acquire it.." "Yet, when you are backed up against the wall, you try to claim that you believe something different.

I don’t expect you to understand this, because it takes some careful discernment that you have admitted that you don’t intend to use.

Comments such as this is why you get called rude and childish. You, who want to teach this other gospel , ought you not be reaching out in that brotherly love and work your way into a few more salvation points? Do you lose your salvation when you are hateful and judgmental?

“Salvation is a free gift that you don’t have to pay for.†That is a false idea about the gospel.

So it is a free gift that you do have to pay for? That is the contradiction that you can not seem to see.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Eph 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I am saved by the grace of God, filled with His Holy Spirit to be used by Him for good works.
You seem to be saying that if you do good works, and do them good enough, then maybe God will let you into heaven someday?

That is beginning to sound like a Jehovah Witness doctrine. Unred Typo, are you a JW?

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
A quick review:
This is what you wrote in your warped view thread. (Keep on thinking that I don't read if you want)
unred typo wrote:Some of you people think I have a warped view of works and grace. But, my view is biblical and unfortunately, yours is the warped one. (Those with closed minds may quit reading here)

Grace is how we are entitled to salvation, works is how we acquire it. God offers salvation freely to all men everywhere, not because of any merit on our part, but solely because of his great love and mercy. We work out that free salvation in order to receive it. We will be judged by the works we did in faith, because we believed in the words and work of Christ. ....


If your foundation of faith is not square on the cornerstone, and I can see that, there is little need or desire to climb up to the next level. Why would a building inspector check out the craftsmanship of a higher floor of a building when the issues of the foundation are still in question?

You said that "Grace is how we are entitled to salvation, works is how we acquire it.." "Yet, when you are backed up against the wall, you try to claim that you believe something different.

I am not saying anything but works is how we acquire it. Where did I claim anything different??? Your problem is you can’t read ‘gift’ without putting ‘no work’ with it. A baby is a gift of God, is there no work expected to be done for this gift? If God gives you a baby, do you say, this is a free gift, I shouldn’t have to do anything to keep it, just receive it and let God take care of the messy details like feeding and diapers? If a company gives you a job, does that mean you don’t have to work it? This is what God gives us…. An opportunity to be called the sons of God, to inherit eternal life, to be in his kingdom, to call him Lord and master instead of Satan.

He gives us, every one of us, this opportunity by his own grace, and his only son pays for our sins with his own blood and his Holy Spirit takes the things of God and shows them unto us. All he asks of us is to follow his commands to love one another, to turn the other cheek, and forgive one another as we have been forgiven by God. What he requires of us is so little in comparison to what we receive in return, what we get is just a gift. There is no comparison to a hundred years of service in return for eternal life in heaven, is there? Isn’t that what Jesus taught about the preciousness of our eternal living soul compared to even gaining the whole world?

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
unred typo wrote:
I don’t expect you to understand this, because it takes some careful discernment that you have admitted that you don’t intend to use.


Comments such as this is why you get called rude and childish. You, who want to teach this other gospel , ought you not be reaching out in that brotherly love and work your way into a few more salvation points? Do you lose your salvation when you are hateful and judgmental?

It doesn’t take much to set me up as the evil one around here then, does it? I’m not very good about soft pedaling what I feel is crucial to your eternal soul. That’s why I seldom ever post anywhere but in Apologetics, A.K.A. the Viper’s Pit. No bedside manners here. Maybe you are more suited to forums like ‘Christian Talk and Advice’ or ‘Prayer Requests and Praises.’ I hear they need a slap up side the head and I bet you are just the one to give it to them. :

Do I lose my salvation when I’m hateful and judgmental? Well, it’s possible, if I go postal over it I guess, but generally, it just makes me feel like I ate too much chocolate cake with chocolate frosting. And it doesn’t go away until I repent and apologize. More times than not, I am accused of being hateful and judgmental when I am really just being sincere and frank and saying what needs to be said without sugar coating it. My Dad always said that some people are like mules, you have to whack them with a 2x4 to get their attention before you can get them to move. More often than not, I think he was talking about me.

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
unred typo wrote: “Salvation is a free gift that you don’t have to pay for.†That is a false idea about the gospel.


So it is a free gift that you do have to pay for? That is the contradiction that you can not seem to see.

No, it’s a concept that you can’t grasp, and not because I haven‘t explained seven ways to Sunday, or because you haven‘t read it. You don’t want to believe it. My gospel is not another gospel. The gospel you preach is the one that differs from the original. You are actually resisting the gospel that Jesus Christ himself preached. Doesn’t that bother you at all?

The blood of Christ is the “free gift†that you don’t have enough money, diamonds, good works, or even lives to pay for, even if you were to drain all the blood from every living creature that ever took a breath. No one could have paid for our sin except for the very son of God himself. The curse was too great and the only way to reverse it was with a totally perfect substitute for Adam.

When you take the free gift of the blood and add it into the entire salvation plan, our meager works are so insignificant as far as actually doing anything for God, it still means we are not paying for our salvation with our works, it is still by grace, even if we give our bodies to be burned, and give all our goods to the poor, it is nothing compared to what we will be getting from God. We don’t have enough strength or time or heart to do enough works to pay for our sin.

Does that mean that works are not required? No, they are what we will be judged by to determine whether we are children of God or of Satan. And not just the quantity of works, but the quality of them will be judged. God is going to look at our hearts and dig down deep into our thoughts and intents, and whatsoever is not done in love and faith is disqualified. That’s why Jesus warns us to look at our hearts and root out bitterness and lust before it defiles our works or becomes sin.

If you could get this all into your head, you wouldn’t have any problem understanding the verses you quote below:

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Eph 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Almost all of these are saying, you have to work out your salvation by following Christ and loving one another, not by rituals and by outside appearances, but by a change of heart where you actually love your God and fellow man and realize that if God forgave you all the debt against him, you must, in turn, forgive all those who wrong you. The works of the law in those verses are the ceremonial rituals that the early church were leaving behind and going on to the royal law of love that Christ taught. Regardless, they are also saying that there is nothing to boast about. Think about it. All you can give God is your heart and he already has millions more of those than he needs and more loving ones than yours or mine, no doubt. If it were not for his grace, you wouldn’t have got to live this long with that “it’s a gift, so I don‘t have to do anything I don‘t want to†attitude. You better be gettin’ yo fear on, sister. (And no, I’m not black.)

quote by Gabbylittleangel:
I am saved by the grace of God, filled with His Holy Spirit to be used by Him for good works.
You seem to be saying that if you do good works, and do them good enough, then maybe God will let you into heaven someday?

That is beginning to sound like a Jehovah Witness doctrine. Unred Typo, are you a JW?

You’d love that, wouldn’t you? :-D Then you could just slam the door in my face and be rid of me. Nope, I’m not Jehovah Witness and I don’t even know exactly what they believe, or care. I do politely talk to them and we do agree on some things but I am not so naïve as to believe they are going to show their most heretical views to me on a first visit. Strangely, they never come back for a second. :-?

Maybe you should talk to Drew about Romans. He is much nicer than I am and maybe he could get you to see the light. He has an excellent study here that deals exclusively with this whole issue:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30673

p.s. I do apologize if I have seemed rude to you. I didn’t realize the fearless Gabbylittleangel would have such tender feelings. I do tend to be overzealous. If your doctrine were a chicken bone in your throat, I’d probably shove my hand down there and accidentally cram it in tighter, trying to get it out. Talk to the Drewster. He’s much nicer in his delivery and we agree, but don‘t hold that against him. :

There, now my ‘too much cake’ feeling is gone. :-D

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Typo,
I used to know a guy that walked around saying stuff like: "Which would you rather be, or a fish? I would rather be a duck because a vest doesn't have sleeves."

Somehow, conversing with you, reminded me of him. :-?

 

[unred typo]

Typo,
I used to know a guy that walked around saying stuff like: "Which would you rather be, or a fish? I would rather be a duck because a vest doesn't have sleeves."

Somehow, conversing with you, reminded me of him. :-?

But a shoe does have pockets, if you count penny loafers. I understand your frustration, since I once believed as you do, believe it or not. I’m not just saying that to scare or taunt you or to get the ‘one up’ advantage. If I could remember the name I used to post under I would send you there to read my former view, that was just as you believe now. I know it sounds trite, but I’ve seen the light… :smt034

 

[cyberjosh]

You have been very patient and I believe that you do read my posts and try to understand where I am coming from here. I appreciate that and I also don’t mind taking time to type out these horribly long, (sorry, I’m not a very succinct writer) detailed replies and read your responses.

Thanks, I try to be patient. Oh, and, *whispers a secret to Unred*: I actually like long posts, they give more detail.

I guess the thing is, Josh, is that I see the Spirit as a real individual entity who speaks to not just you and me and those who seek his will, but to every person in the world, not just the church goers or jungle dwellers. The Holy Spirit isn’t limited to the Bible or a preacher or a church program. What we understand may be narrow but he does work broadly. It’s not rare or questionable that the Holy Spirit works with every person to bring them to a knowledge and acceptance of the truth. There won’t be many that find it because even when the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.

I know the Holy Spirit of God isn't limited, nor the word of God for that matter (and I've found a theme in the Bible of the Spirit working by the word to bear fruit). A person could be convicted one day by merely being outside & observing God's creation (Psalm 19) and then the Holy Spirit comes to work in them & their mind to realize God is real that he demands justice and righteousness, and such a one would then seek out God and undoubtedly come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ (the road begins and ends with Christ, as you will see me constantly assert ). Preaching is not entirely necessary either (though in no way demeaning preaching, for that is what our beloved Apostles were to many and even to us by the Holy Word of God, penned for our adavantage) because I have heard of (no joke) atheists in various situations who under some circumstance whether out of malice or true sincere curiosity picking up the Bible to read it and by the time they are done they are convicted beyond explanation, at a loss to explain their change of heart. That is God's working, pure and unadulterated.

I do understand your reservations about tossing the baby out with the bathwater here. Especially when the baby is our own baby Jesus born in a manger. I don’t know exactly what MEC believes since I have only recently begun to read his posts in topics that I find compelling, and I can‘t speak for him as to what he meant. I know sometimes it is a simple omission for brevity that causes a misunderstanding in what the writer intended to say. Is MEC advocating that we don’t need Christ, or we don’t need the rituals of going to the altar, praying the sinner’s prayer, and saying the correct doctrinal words of some formula designed by a particular denomination?

We seemed to have discussed some of the details about this in our PMs. I'm not quite sure what MEC believes, but to address it I have already written to you that I was not looking at denominational beliefs, but rather true confession. Anyway, this can be continued in our PM if there is some uncovered point (doubt it, so far).

The protestant churches today also have made traditions that may become stumbling blocks to them. The altar call, the baptism, the Lord’s supper, the weekly worship service, the sinner’s prayer, etc., could all be turned into mere rituals.

Yes, happily we have indeed agreed that deed and true obedience of the heart must accompany the claim to be a Christian, not only in word but in deed (and done from the heart - not ritually).

The Bible, as wonderful as it is, is no substitute for the actual Holy Spirit’s leading. As you say, the words of Christ and the Spirit of Christ work together to enlighten us. But if we never pick up the Bible, the Holy Spirit can still speak to us and we are taught of God to love one another. Even when we do immerse ourselves in the Bible, we can ignore the Lord’s words and concentrate on things that fill us with strange doctrines and elaborate theologies instead of the simplicity that is in Christ. Caught up with studies about the trinity, baptism, or history, etc, we can lose touch with the love that Christ taught us to develop between us and our brothers, our neighbors and even our enemies.

Yes there are always wrong ways of approaching God's word. But God willing with true conversion and transformation of the heart, being filled with the Spirit, the word will be spiritual unto life rather than the letter unto death. God works the word in our heart unto salvation (the seed & sower), and our part is to say and obey the example given us of, "Thy word I have hidden in my heart that I might not sin against thee" (Psalm 119:11).

I think I have a pretty good grasp of what you’re saying, but I’m not sure that what you are defending is the gospel as much as your tradition in the gospel presentation and your personal ideas on who is eligible for receiving the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Actually I believe all are eligible, I just don't believe (as I am sure you don't either) that all recieve the Salvation through Christ offered to them (many reject it, and walk the broad road Jesus talked about). I would not limit whom God can save, for Christ came to draw all men unto himself, and it is God's will that none should perish. I will leave the perfect and impartial plan of salvation to God and rejoice in those whom he saves.

You have to consider that sometimes, a person isn’t rejecting Christ as much as they are rejecting so-called Christians. The essential message a person must accept is that we must love one another, forgive as we have been forgiven by God, turn the other cheek, confess our sins and repent of any evil in our lives if we are going to inherit eternal life. That is briefly the word that was brought to us by Christ, that is the gospel that he preached, and the word that we are to sow.

Right, but just as we talked about in our PMs of the so-called & false "Christs" and the so-called Christians, these "so-calleds" can indeed be walked away from and to be renounced for the true Gospel, but if one denounces a false Christ then they will acknowledge the true Christ. The knowledge of Christ is the Christians goal, as we are sanctified by the power of God.

Looking carefully at my last paragraph, did I mention Christ’s death? It was omitted for brevity. It’s actually included in my mind in the phrase, ‘forgive as we have been forgiven by God’ but if you didn‘t know my heart in this, you might think I didn‘t believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which made our forgiveness possible. So sometimes you have to read between the lines.

Right, and maybe not every one immediately once they are saved will realize the full import of who Christ is or his sacrifice (hey its a life time pursuit of that knowledge), but as a result of their salvation they will come to realize who saved them, and through whom they have the forgiveness of sins, and the Lord whom they serve, and his sacrifice of love which we follow in.

-----------------------------------------------

Oh, Unred, I was browsing some other threads (on this page) and I saw something which you said which I agree with and like. You indeed showed your acknowledgement of Christ therein:

The unmerited gift is the blood/sacrifice of Christ, and that only works to save you if you repent and follow Christ. If you think you can sit back and watch what God does with and for you and you don’t get yourself behind the wheel, and start doing what Jesus taught you to do, you’re not going to be saved, period

Yes, following Jesus is a must. Right on. :smt023

The gospel is the teaching of Christ, what he said that you must do in order to be saved. If you hear the message and obey it, you will inherit eternal life, but if you don’t, you will die. That isn’t a Calvinist or a Catholic or a Protestant theology, it’s the truth, pure and simple as Jesus taught it.

Right on, this isn't about the denominational debate (like I tried to convey in our PMs) but about following Christ and doing what he commanded. :smt023

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

Two thumbs up? That’s better than most box office blockbusters. Maybe we don’t agree 100% but even I know better than to mess with success. :-D