Plaguing questions on an ambitous mind...

[Gabbylittleangel]

Unred, you are confusing us. You advocate a grace plus works-based salvation, accuse Gabby of putting God in a box... then you say this???

You see, Gabby, God does not live in your little box nor does he play by your rules for him. He's God, and he's sovereign.

:crazyeyes:

Thanks Vic!

Notice that I quoted (1.)God's Word, (2.) was accused of putting Him in a box and then (3.)called stupid for doing so. :infinity:

Do you suppose if I keep that up that me and God are gonna be on the same page?

 

[unred typo]

quote by vic C. :

Unred, you are confusing us. You advocate a grace plus works-based salvation, accuse Gabby of putting God in a box... then you say this???
[quote:1407b]You see, Gabby, God does not live in your little box nor does he play by your rules for him. He's God, and he's sovereign.

[/quote:1407b]

It’s not confusing when you realize that it is God who sovereignly chooses to give us a ‘works-based’ salvation that he commands us to work out with fear and trembling. Maybe I over reacted to Gabby’s statement but it is your “spiritual giants of the faith†who are the inventors of a man-made, workless, unconditional salvation for the elected few. They have built the box for God. They just haven’t noticed that he isn’t in it. Maybe they’re afraid to look…

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
Thanks Vic!

Notice that I quoted (1.)God's Word, (2.) was accused of putting Him in a box and then (3.)called stupid for doing so.

Do you suppose if I keep that up that me and God are gonna be on the same page?

Sorry, Gabby. I thought you were trying to say that only those who name the actual name of Jesus Christ will be saved, when you used Romans 10:9 in answer to my post. Maybe you could explain exactly what you were implying.

I also did not call you ‘stupid.’ This is what I said:

“Do you believe that the only, absolute ONLY way that God can speak to his world is through believers and things they have written about him? How stupid would that be?â€Â

Now either that is what you think, or it is not, and if it is what you think, I am still asking you to evaluate the stupidity of such a thought, and not calling you ‘stupid’, even if you hold such a thing to be true.

 

[Drew]

Unred, you are confusing us. You advocate a grace plus works-based salvation,..."

Unred is in good company. Paul, through an admittedly complex theology, clearly teaches that grace is salvific and that "good works" are salvific (following are from Romans 2):

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

How we can be true to these verse and true to the "salvation is a gift" teaching is not trivial. But we cannot ignore these texts from Romans 2. Arguments that this is "about the Jews only" or that "Paul didn't really mean us to believe that any would actually be justified in this way" can be easily be shown to be exceedingly shaky.

So while I cannot speak for the specific way unred has argued his position, he is only being true to Paul when he asserts that works are salvific. I happen to think we can work this truth into what is, in essence, a grace-based salvation.

I think a key, key problem is this: People are either unable or unwilling to see how grace and works can both be salvific. They come to the text seeing these as mutually exclusive. I believe Paul teaches otherwise, although not in a manner that is obvious.

 

[mondar]

Prolific85 wrote:
If God exists, why did he leave us such a little evidence in favor of his existence?

What would you accept as evidence?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Sorry, Gabby. I thought you were trying to say that only those who name the actual name of Jesus Christ will be saved, when you used Romans 10:9 in answer to my post. Maybe you could explain exactly what you were implying.

This is what I was implying:
How could you call someone Lord, if you don't even know His name?

To call someone Lord, is to humble yourself and exalt them. To give them control. To submit to them. How could you do those things, ask them to be your Lord, if you don't know them well enough to know what their name is?

This is what I said:

And therein lies the key. This is what you said, then attempted to put the words in my mouth and analyze them. Apparently you do not know me very well. I am one who is often criticized for saying that God speaks, God has shown me, etc, etc.

“Do you believe that the only, absolute ONLY way that God can speak to his world is through believers and things they have written about him? How stupid would that be?â€Â

Now either that is what you think, or it is not, and if it is what you think, I am still asking you to evaluate the stupidity of such a thought, and not calling you ‘stupid’, even if you hold such a thing to be true.

Typo,
I posted a verse, out of the word of God. A verse that is one of the keys to salvation. You criticize me for it, attempt to put words in my mouth, and judged me for them. :-?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Prolific85 wrote:
If God exists, why did he leave us such a little evidence in favor of his existence?

What would you accept as evidence?

:-D

 

[unred typo]

quote by cybershark5886
Unred wrote:“You’re reading these verses wrong. If there were only one bridge to an island named the JC Bridge, you might say that no one can drive to the island except through JC bridge. This is true but anyone can drive over the bridge and not even know the name of the bridge. “

Such an ignorant person wouldn't be "wandering" on this bridge. No one walks with Jesus without acknowledging Him and knowing Him, it's impossible. This is also the purpose of confession: confessing Jesus before men that Jesus will confess us before the Father. Also walking with Jesus can be likened unto walking on the Highway of Holiness in Isaiah, "The unclean will not travel on it, But it will be for him who walks that way, And fools will not wander on it" (Isaiah 35:8). Fools blind to Jesus and who He is & those who refuse to renounce the unclean, hidden things of darkness to follow Jesus will not get to the Father, nor wander on the way to the Father - they will have no part with The Way.

God spoke to Abram, and all of the OT saints, and they will be saved, and none of them knew the name of Jesus. The same is true of those yoday who never heard his name, yet follow the Spirit of God in their hearts, just as Abram did. Abram’s father was an idolater and yet, he sought the one true God who created heaven and earth. He was a righteous man whose ways pleased God. He listened to his God-given conscience, and knew right from wrong. It’s not impossible, Josh.

First of all, God doesn’t expect perfection. He weighs us in the balance and if there is more good than bad, he throws away the bad and keeps the good in us. We will be better when we follow the leading of the Spirit of God, if we know there is a reward for being unselfish and forgiving, even persecuted, in this life. It will be much easier for us to follow Christ, when we have heard this good news of the kingdom of God.

quote by cybershark5886

Unred wrote:“Think about it. If we walk in the light of love, the Spirit of God cleanses us from all sin in the blood of Christ. You’re trying to shut down the bridge to all traffic and not letting anyone cross unless they can say the secret password. That’s wrong. The way is open and no man can shut it. Our job is to tell everyone the name of the bridge so they will know who has built it and paved it, and know that by following the way over the JC bridge they will arrive in heaven. This is the good news of the gospel that we need to tell to those haven‘t ‘heard without a preacher.’â€Â


What this idea/approach does is push Jesus out of the way to attempt to "simplify" salvation according to man's standards (or bypass the established path), which in fact makes a more complicated mess than you would think.

You have a complicated mess alright, but it’s not my fault. I’m advocating the path established by Christ, not by man. You’re trying to complicate the gospel with this set of guidelines that Jesus never taught or even intimated.

quote by cybershark5886
We could not even walk with God in love if it were not for Jesus, as a consequence in order for God to redeem us he had to create a stumbling block to the flesh (the chief stone which the builders rejected) by becoming manifest as a man (a major stumbling block) on earth, and ordaining salvation through that manifestation.

Jesus came to die for our sins, and tell us how to be saved. By following his plan for living, we will be saved. If we choose to obey, he will help us. He can be trusted, end of story.

quote by cybershark5886
Now Jesus is the only way to salvation, and first only through the fleshly manifestation (Jesus & His sacrifice - which a recognition of then calls for repentance) to even get to the spiritual relationship with God through Christ, as you walk with Christ.

Sure, Jesus is the only way that our sins could be removed to enable us to be saved. Lot will be saved by the blood of Christ, even though he lived before Christ. The blood is available for all sins that are repented of.
2 Peter 2: 7-9 (God ) delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.

quote by cybershark5886
You can't take the fleshly redemption (the manner in which it was brought, that is) which Christ brought us, and try to bypass it to jump straight to the spiritual, for it is trying to use the pretense of Christ's salvation and using it to open another door to God, other than the prescribed way set by Christ- who was given all authority in Heaven and Earth. And Jesus with this authority said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

~Josh

Show me the prescribed way that was set by Christ, Josh. You will see that it is by love for God and fellow man, and forgiveness for others who have wronged us, faith in his blood, sacrifice for others less fortunate, humility, godliness and holiness, without which, no man shall see the Lord. IOW, we will be saved by the blood but still judged by our works, Josh, bt not in “the prescribed way†that has been taught in today‘s ‘grace alone’ churches.

 

[cyberjosh]

God spoke to Abram, and all of the OT saints, and they will be saved, and none of them knew the name of Jesus. The same is true of those today who never heard his name, yet follow the Spirit of God in their hearts, just as Abram did. Abram’s father was an idolater and yet, he sought the one true God who created heaven and earth. He was a righteous man whose ways pleased God. He listened to his God-given conscience, and knew right from wrong. It’s not impossible, Josh.

Abraham didn't go to be with the Father when he died. Were it not for Jesus he would have never left Paradise. But based on the promise of The Way (Jesus) coming to restore our relationship with God Abraham could say in anticipation like David, "Thou will not leave my soul in Sheol" because of, and only because of Jesus.

Show me the prescribed way that was set by Christ, Josh. You will see that it is by love for God and fellow man, and forgiveness for others who have wronged us, faith in his blood, sacrifice for others less fortunate, humility, godliness and holiness, without which, no man shall see the Lord.

Versus (as opposed to) what viewpoint? I don't understand.

 

[RadicalReformer]

God spoke to Abram, and all of the OT saints, and they will be saved, and none of them knew the name of Jesus. The same is true of those yoday who never heard his name, yet follow the Spirit of God in their hearts, just as Abram did. Abram’s father was an idolater and yet, he sought the one true God who created heaven and earth. He was a righteous man whose ways pleased God. He listened to his God-given conscience, and knew right from wrong. It’s not impossible, Josh.

Only one problem - what was the need of the sacrifical system then?

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
This is what I was implying:
How could you call someone Lord, if you don't even know His name?

To call someone Lord, is to humble yourself and exalt them. To give them control. To submit to them. How could you do those things, ask them to be your Lord, if you don't know them well enough to know what their name is?

You can exalt the Lord as Lord through the title of ‘creator’, because everyone can realize that there is a creator to be addressed and worshipped, unless they are a fool. When you change your behavior according to a ‘nagging conscience’, you are submitting to the control of the Spirit. Don’t you believe that? You claim to.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
unred typo wrote: “This is what I said:â€Â
And therein lies the key. This is what you said, then attempted to put the words in my mouth and analyze them. Apparently you do not know me very well. I am one who is often criticized for saying that God speaks, God has shown me, etc, etc.

Why is it so strange then, when I say that the Holy Spirit can speak to those who never heard the name of Jesus? What words did I put in your mouth?

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
unred typo wrote:“Do you believe that the only, absolute ONLY way that God can speak to his world is through believers and things they have written about him? How stupid would that be?â€Â
Now either that is what you think, or it is not, and if it is what you think, I am still asking you to evaluate the stupidity of such a thought, and not calling you ‘stupid’, even if you hold such a thing to be true.â€Â


Typo,
I posted a verse, out of the word of God. A verse that is one of the keys to salvation. You criticize me for it, attempt to put words in my mouth, and judged me for them.

What are you talking about? Please read what we wrote again. You obviously are not reading something right. The verse doesn’t say that unless you name the name, “Jesus Christ†and call him ‘Lord’ you cannot be saved. It says that you must follow him, obey him, and do what he says to be saved. That is what ’calling him Lord’ means. You can’t just call him ‘Lord’ and not do what he says to do and still be saved just for saying a few well chosen words. You are going to be judged by your works, not your profession of faith.

 

[Vic C.]

... I think a key, key problem is this: People are either unable or unwilling to see how grace and works can both be salvific. They come to the text seeing these as mutually exclusive. I believe Paul teaches otherwise, although not in a manner that is obvious.

Is this obvious enough for you and unred? If not, you may as well tear out Galatians and Ephesians, because you are falling into the same line of misunderstanding as they.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You guys really need to brush up on your Justification doctrines.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: Plaguing questions on an ambitious mind...

Hey Typo,
I want to try a different approach, and then perhaps the rest of us could understand what it is that you are trying to teach us.
I would like to introduce you to H.P. (Hypothetical person) H.P. just came to town. He is from the jungle, and has never heard the gospel. H.P. speaks and understands English. I would like you to tell H.P what he must to to be saved.

 

[unred typo]

God spoke to Abram, and all of the OT saints, and they will be saved, and none of them knew the name of Jesus. The same is true of those yoday who never heard his name, yet follow the Spirit of God in their hearts, just as Abram did. Abram’s father was an idolater and yet, he sought the one true God who created heaven and earth. He was a righteous man whose ways pleased God. He listened to his God-given conscience, and knew right from wrong. It’s not impossible, Josh.

Only one problem - what was the need of the sacrifical system then?

The sacrificial system was used by those who were sorry for their sin to show repentance and to offer a payment to God or to give the fruit of their labors to show appreciation for his gifts to them. God showed them he had accepted the gift when he sent fire down and consumed it. It didn’t pay for sin. The sacrificial system of the Jews was given to prepare them to understand how the sacrifice of Christ would be used to pay for the sin of the world. The blood of sheep and goats didn’t remove sin either. Only the blood of the sacrifice of Christ removes our sin. His blood only had to be offered once to pay for all confessed sins. The Spirit applies the blood of Christ to all sins that are repented of, whether it was two thousand before Christ died or two thousand years after.

 

[RadicalReformer]

unred - "huh"?

I might be wrong, but doesn't it say somewhere in Leviticus about the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[Drew]

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You guys really need to brush up on your Justification doctrines.

I think that it is you who needs to brush up on what Paul means when he refers to "law". He is not referring to "good works" even though this is the view that most people hold. He is referring to the Torah as an ethnic badge that the Jew believed would be sufficient for justification. That this is so is, I think, quite clear from an analysis of the entire book of Romans.

To quote NT Wright on the very text you have provided:

I think, the point of vindication is not ‘how someone becomes a Christian’ but the question of table-fellowship: with whom may I, indeed must I, share table-fellowship? Peter’s action in separating himself from Christian Gentiles was not implying that they needed to perform moral good works; it was implying that they needed to become physically Jewish. Paul’s argument against him was not to do with the mechanism of how people come from being sinful idolaters to forgiven members of Christ’s people, but with the equality within the people of God of all who believe the gospel, Jew and Gentile alike. That controversy, indeed, dominates the entire letter in a way that, alas, I think Martin Luther never saw

In 2:21, Paul is not saying "If justification came by "good works", then Christ died in vain."

He is saying: "If justification came by the demarcating badge of Torah, then Christ died in vain"

There is a huge difference, as I think you will agree, even if you do not share my view on what Paul means in this text.

Remember the central issue of Galatians 2. It was a dispute about Jews eating with Gentiles, not a discussion of abstract theologies of justification:

When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs

When we remember that these verses precede the ones you quoted, we see how natural the reading I propose is, and how awkward it is to think that Paul changes horses in mid-stream from the dispute about Jewish-Gentile relations to an argument about we are justified by "faith" as set against "good works". This makes Paul into a very incoherent writer. And there is oodles of evidence that he is nothing of the kind.

Why do Jews and Gentiles in fact belong at the same table? Not because we are justified by "faith as set against 'good works'" but rather that we are justified in a way that does not recognize the ethnic specificity of Torah - the very misunderstanding that would enable one to justify having the Jews eat at a different table from the Gentiles.

 

[unred typo]

Re: Plaguing questions on an ambitious mind...

Hey Typo,
I want to try a different approach, and then perhaps the rest of us could understand what it is that you are trying to teach us.
I would like to introduce you to H.P. (Hypothetical person) H.P. just came to town. He is from the jungle, and has never heard the gospel. H.P. speaks and understands English. I would like you to tell H.P what he must to to be saved.

Ok, that might work. I would tell him that because of Adam‘s sin, he and all mankind after him were banished from the presence of God and cut off from the tree of life, so they would all eventually die. Then I would explain that God had promised to make a way to bring us back to live forever with him. In order to do that, he sent his word to earth, born as a baby to live as a man and completely obey God and never sin like Adam did. When this perfect child grew to manhood, God caused him to be put to death. Because he had never sinned, he was not condemned to die for any sin of his own, and the spirit of God raised him to life again. Now whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

If he is anything close to normal, H.P. will immediately ask what it means to believe in him. Then I will explain that before he died, God’s son taught us what we must do to be saved from death. He told us to love one another, your neighbor and your enemy, turn the other cheek instead of repaying evil with more evil, to give to those in need, be humble, not proud and greedy or selfish, not to do anything that you would not want others to do to you, (i.e. commit robbery, adultery, murder, lying, etc.) and love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and soul. Whenever you break any of these things that he said to do, you must repent, confess it as sin and turn back to doing his word, and you will be forgiven by God, if you also forgive others as you have been forgiven, and if he doesn‘t forgive everyone neither will his heavenly father forgive him.

I will tell him of heaven and hell and explain that we will all be judged by our works to determine whether we will inherit eternal life and to determine where we will spend eternity. That should get him through the basics. When he asks me of the name of this wonderful son of God, I will tell him the name of Jesus Christ. I will also tell him about the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us live right, and explain how he convicts of sin and teaches us to love one another. At this point, he will probably tell me about his conscience, or whatever he calls it where something inside tells him how to do good and makes him hurt inside when he does bad things. There are lots more things I could say but this is the basics.

 

[unred typo]

unred - "huh"?

I might be wrong, but doesn't it say somewhere in Leviticus about the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins?

It didn’t remove the sin, it just covered it until the time when Christ would take it away.
Hebrews 10:3-4
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Re: Plaguing questions on an ambitious mind...

I will tell him of heaven and hell and explain that we will all be judged by our works to determine whether we will inherit eternal life and to determine where we will spend eternity.

This is where you and I differ.

The determination as to if we inherit eternal life and where we will spend eternity is based on if one has become born again. That is where the line is.

It is possible to hear and understand the gospel, and ponder it before asking Jesus Christ to be your Lord and Saviour. Or to believe that He paid for your sin and accept His forgiveness immediately. It is possible to hear and understand the gospel message and decide that you don't want to accept the offer.

For a Christian to be judged by works means that we will receive responsibility and rewards based on what they did for the Lord. Our salvation is assured already. The works we do or don't do after that point do not impact salvation, but rewards.

When the non-Christian faces judgement, works will determine the severity of judgment that they enter. The works that they do or don't do will not determine where they spend eternity, but how hot it will be.

I also hold the belief that God deals with what Scripture refers to as 'wicked servants'. Those who hear the gospel, believe it, but simply offer up the sinners prayer in order to stay out of hell, never intending to serve the Lord, and caring nothing about works of any sort.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
This is where you and I differ.

The determination as to if we inherit eternal life and where we will spend eternity is based on if one has become born again. That is where the line is.

If that is where the line is, you must have good solid scripture stating that. Where is it?

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
It is possible to hear and understand the gospel, and ponder it before asking Jesus Christ to be your Lord and Saviour. Or to believe that He paid for your sin and accept His forgiveness immediately. It is possible to hear and understand the gospel message and decide that you don't want to accept the offer.

So many possibilities. I’m still a little fuzzy about what you believe though. I thought he was the savior of all men, especially of those that believe. Is it possible to believe in him and not believe what he taught is true? Is it possible to accept his forgiveness and not forgive others the wrongs they have done to us? Is it possible to accept his forgiveness for sins that we refuse to stop doing, knowing full well that they are sins? Is it possible to call Jesus Christ to be your Lord and not even intend to obey him, except when one feels so inclined?

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
For a Christian to be judged by works means that we will receive responsibility and rewards based on what they did for the Lord. Our salvation is assured already. The works we do or don't do after that point do not impact salvation, but rewards.

Our salvation is assured as long as we continue in love and good works. There is no guarantee we will not be cast away if we return to following Satan. You become the slave of the one you follow, whether of Christ unto eternal life or of Satan, unto death.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
When the non-Christian faces judgement, works will determine the severity of judgment that they enter. The works that they do or don't do will not determine where they spend eternity, but how hot it will be.

I also hold the belief that God deals with what Scripture refers to as 'wicked servants'. Those who hear the gospel, believe it, but simply offer up the sinners prayer in order to stay out of hell, never intending to serve the Lord, and caring nothing about works of any sort.

Have you even dared to read any of Drew’s posts on Romans 2?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
This is where you and I differ.

The determination as to if we inherit eternal life and where we will spend eternity is based on if one has become born again. That is where the line is.

If that is where the line is, you must have good solid scripture stating that. Where is it?

Hmmm. I would have figured that you would have heard it by now, but sure, it can never be posted too much.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Read the whole chapter. It has stuff like this in it.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This is pretty basic too.
Act 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

These verses sound real simple:
Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But I am right back where I started. You gotta know enough about him to have the ability to surrender to His Lordship.