Rob said:
When I was a child and I started going to Church I was taught the trinity, there was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost but they were all God just in different forms. I can only remember asking once as a child about this teaching and I can remember being told that the father was God, the Holy Spirit was the breath of God (something about the hebrew word for spirit also meant breath), and that Jesus was God come down in the form of man. I've never given the issue much thought until recently when I've seen discussions on the forums because this isn't the type of issue they discuss in Church. Recently I decided to read through some of the new testament to see what conclusions I could come to myself and I'm still unsure as to how to interpret certain things.
1 Corinthians 8:6 is the first verse I had that made question how I was taught.
John 8:28 is the second verse I started looking at and this one has me really confused. The second part of the verse has me questioning how I was raised but he also says that you will see that I am he which almost seems that Jesus is saying he is God.
John 5:19-23 again makes me question the way I was taught.
Matthew 24:36 is the only verse that really makes me start to have doubts about how I was taught though because it raises one question. If the way I was taught is the truth then how could Jesus not know something that God knows?
I'm starting this thread because I have throughly confused myself trying to figure this out now. I've been raised to believe one way my entire life and now I'm trying to make my own decisions based on scripture and I just might not be able to do it so I ask for discussion of this with the intent of becoming less confused. Thanks in advance.
Rob
I pray you will take the time to read my comments on the verses you had questions on. Please PM me or ask on this thread what ever questions you may have. I believe you were taught right, but now its time to give you meat and water you so that you may become like the fourth soil
Excuse the type'os as I am learning to speed type.
1 COR 8:4-6
Rob In order to understand the scriptures its important to realize a few things.
This is a letter. Paul wrote this to a very corrupt church. Lets go down verse by verse and lets take a look at what the Apostle paul is saying.
8:4 As far as things offered to idols are concerned, believers understand that an idol is not a real god with power, knowledge, and love. Paul was not denying the existence of idols themselves; he knew that there were such things as images carved out of wood or stone. Later on he acknowledges that behind these idols there are demon-powers. But what he emphasizes here is that the gods which these idols purport to represent do not exist. There is no other God but one, that is, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
8:5 Paul admits that there were many so-called gods in heathen mythology, such as Jupiter, Juno, and Mercury. Some of these gods were supposed to live in heaven, and others, such as Ceres and Neptune, here on earth. In this sense there are many gods and many lords, that is, mythological beings which people worshiped and were in bondage to.
8:6 Believers know that there is one true God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him. This means that God, our Father, is the Source or Creator of all things and that we were created for Him. In other words, He is the purpose or goal of our existence. We also know that there is one Lord, namely Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. The expression through whom are all things describes the Lord Jesus as the Mediator or Agent of God, whereas the expression through whom we live indicates that it is through Him that we have been created and redeemed.
When Paul says that there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ, he does not mean that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God. Rather he simply indicates the respective roles which these two Persons of the Godhead fulfilled in creation and in redemption.
Rob. If you need further explanation, let me know. Lets move on to the next verse.
John 8:21-30
Rob.. This is a very famous section of Scripture. When I was teaching the adult Sunday school class at church, it took nearly 1 year to get through the book of John.
It was a huge blessing for me and its good to be able to use some of my notes again.
That was 4 years ago. I thought I was taking a year off of teaching the bible but here I am and enjoying it. Now lets take a look at what John says in this section of scripture.
8:21 Again Jesus showed perfect knowledge of the future. He told His critics He was going awayâ€â€referring not only to His death and burial, but to His resurrection and ascension back into heaven. The Jewish people would continue to seek for the Messiah, not realizing that He had already visited them and that they had rejected Him. Because of their rejection, they would die in their sin (“sin†is singular in Greek and in NKJV). This would mean that they would be forever prevented from entering heaven, where the Lord was going. It is a solemn truth! Those who refuse to accept the Lord Jesus as God have no hope of heaven. How dreadful to die in one’s sins, without God, without Christ, without hope forever!
8:22 The Jews did not understand that the Lord spoke of going back to heaven. What did He mean by “going away� Did He mean that He would escape from their plot to kill Him by committing suicide? It was strange that they should think this. If He were to kill Himself, there would be nothing to prevent them from doing the same and following Him in death. But it was just another example of the darkness of unbelief. It seems amazing that they could be so dull and ignorant of what the Savior was saying!
8:23 Doubtless thinking of their foolish reference to suicide, the Lord told them that they were from beneath. This meant that they had a very low outlook on things. They could not rise above the literal things of time and sense. They had no spiritual understanding. In contrast, Christ was from above. His thoughts, words, and deeds were heavenly. All that they did savored of this world, whereas His whole life told that He came from a purer land than this world.
8:24 Jesus often used repetition for emphasis. Here He solemnly warned them again that they would die in their sins. If they steadfastly refused to believe on Him, there was no alternative. Apart from the Lord Jesus, there is no way to obtain forgiveness of sins, and those who die with sins unforgiven cannot possibly enter heaven at last. The word He is not found in this verse in the original, though it may be implied. It reads literally: “If you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins.†We see in the words I am another claim to deity by the Lord Jesus.
8:25 The Jews were completely perplexed by the teachings of the Lord Jesus. They asked Him pointedly who He was. Perhaps they meant this in sarcasm, as if to say, “Who do You think You are, that You should speak to us in this way?†Or perhaps they were really anxious to hear what He would say concerning Himself. His answer is worthy of note: “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.†He was the promised Messiah. The Jews had heard Him say so frequently, but their stubborn hearts refused to bow to the truth. But His answer can have another meaningâ€â€the Lord Jesus was exactly what He preached. He did not say one thing and do another. He was the living embodiment of all that He taught. His life agreed with His teaching.
8:26 The meaning of verse 26 is not clear. It seems the Lord was saying that there were many additional things He could say and judge concerning these unbelieving Jews. He could expose the wicked thoughts and motives of their hearts. However, He was obediently speaking only those things which the Father had given Him to speak. And since the Father is true, He is worthy to be believed and listened to.
8:27 The Jews did not understand at this point that He was speaking to them of God the Father. It seems that their minds were becoming more clouded all the time. Previously when the Lord Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, they had realized He was claiming equality with God the Father. But not so anymore.
8:28 Again Jesus prophesied what was going to happen. First of all, the Jews would lift up the Son of Man. This refers to His death by crucifixion. After they had done that, they would know that He was the Messiah. They would know it by the earthquake and by the darkness, but, most of all, by His bodily resurrection from the dead. Notice carefully the words of the Lord, “Then you will know that I am.†Here, again, the word He is not in the original. The deeper meaning is, “Then you will know that I am God.†Then they would understand He did nothing from Himself, that is, by His own authority. Rather, He came into the world as the dependent One, speaking only those things which the Father had taught Him to say.
8:29, 30 The Lord’s relationship with God the Father was very intimate. Each of these expressions was a claim to equality with God. Throughout all of His earthly ministry, the Father was with Him. At no time was Jesus left alone. At all times He did the things that were pleasing to God. These words could only be spoken by a sinless Being. No one born of human parents could ever truthfully utter those words, “I always do those things that please Him.†Too often we do the things that please ourselves. Sometimes we are prompted to please our fellow men. Only the Lord Jesus was completely taken up with the desire to do the things that were well-pleasing to God.
As He spoke these wonderful words, Jesus found that many professed to believe on Him. Doubtless some were genuine in their faith. Others might only have been prompted to give lip service to the Lord.
John 5:19-23
Rob
Lets move on to your next few verses
5:19 The Savior was so vitally linked with God the Father that He could not act independently. He does not mean that He did not have the power to do anything by Himself, but that He was so closely united with God that He could only do the very things which He saw His Father doing. For while the Lord claimed equality with the Father, He did not claim independency too. He is not independent of although He is fully equal with Him.
The Lord Jesus clearly intended the Jews to think of Him as equal with God. It would be absurd for a mere man to claim to do the very things which God Himself does. Jesus claims to see what the Father is doing. In order to make such a claim, He must have continual access to the Father and complete knowledge of what is going on in heaven. Not only so, but Jesus claims to do the very things which He sees the Father do. This is certainly an assertion of His equality with God. He is omnipotent.
5:20 It is a special mark of the Father’s love for His Son that He shows Him all things that He Himself does. These things Jesus not only saw; He had the power to perform them as well. Then the Savior went on to say that God would show Him greater works than these, so that the people might marvel. Already they had seen the Lord Jesus performing miracles. They had just seen Him heal a man who had been crippled for thirty-eight years. But they would see greater marvels than this. The first such marvel would be the raising of the dead (v. 21). The second was the work of judging mankind (v. 22).
5:21 Here is another clear statement as to the equality of the Son with the Father. The Jews accused Jesus of making Himself equal with God. He did not deny the charge, but rather set forth these tremendous proofs of the fact that He and the Father are one. Just as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. Could this ever be said of Him if He were a mere man? To ask the question is to answer it.
5:22 The NT teaches that God the Father ... has committed all the work of judgment to the Son. In order for the Lord Jesus to do this work, He must, of course, have absolute knowledge and perfect righteousness. He must be able to discern the thoughts and motives of men’s hearts. How strange it was that the Judge of all the earth should stand before these Jews, asserting His authority, and yet they did not recognize Him!
5:23 Here we have the reason God has given authority to His Son to raise the dead and to judge the world. The reason is so that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. This is a most important statement, and one of the clearest proofs in the Bible of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. Throughout the Bible we are taught that God alone is to be worshiped. In the Ten Commandments, the people were forbidden to have any god but the one true God. Now we are taught that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The only conclusion we can come to from this verse is that Jesus Christ is God.
Many people claim to worship God, but deny that Jesus Christ is God. They say that He was a good man or more godlike than any other man who ever lived. But this verse puts Him on an absolute equality with God, and requires that men should give Him the same honor which they give to God the Father. If a person does not honor the Son, then he does not honor the Father. It is useless to claim a love for God if one does not have the same love for the Lord Jesus Christ. If you have never realized before who Jesus Christ is, then ponder this verse carefully. Remember that it is the Word of God, and accept the glorious truth that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.
Matt 24:36
Rob Perhaps the question that really has you thinking is perhaps the easy one to answer. Christ, in His humiliation (incarnation), was not aware of the time is not a denial of His deity, but an evidence of His functional subordination and temporary surrender of the use of certain attributes while living a life of faith and dependence upon the Father.
Mark 13:32 indicates that even Jesus Himself did not know the day and hour of His return. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He voluntarily limited His use of His divine attributes (see John 17:4, 5; Phil. 2:5–8). Therefore He became hungry, thirsty, and tired. Luke records that Jesus grew in knowledge and wisdom (see Luke 2:52). In this instance, Jesus surrendered the use of His divine omniscience. You bet now that Jesus is with the father at the right hand he knows the day and the hour.
Well rob 3 hours later he we are. I pray this study will be a blessing to you and all who read it.
May the Lord bless you and Keep you.
Jg
:
:
: