Polygamy in the Old testament - How could God allow it

[katsa]

Hi Folks,

I must confess there are times when I read the Old testament like a story book unable to apply the principles to current life ... also theres stuff that I dont understand ... e.g Polygamy (favoritism for men?) and Drunkeness by God's men yet today that is the ultimate sin. I dont get this part of the Bible maybe I dont understand it . Is there anything in the Old testament that can be applied to life today?

 

[handy]

Since when did drunkeness become the 'ultimate sin'? I've wondered about this alot, especially after joining the church of the Nazarene. I think the church in America has placed emphasis on some things that the bible really doesn't emphasize. Drukeness is sin, yes, but not unforgivable and no worse than say, the sin of, dare I say it....gluttony. ed!:

I find the Old Testament to be a rich source of seeing just how God interacts with men, with all our spots and blemishes. We truly find the answer to the question, "How many times will God forgive me?" by reading the Old Testament. We see the fatal mistakes made by men, and yet also God's faithfulness.

Take for example the story of David and Bathsheba. Not only does it include adultery, but also murder, for David deliberatly put Uriah into harms way, just to cover his own sin. God didn't condone any of this, and sent the prophet Nathan to rebuke David. David also faced the horrible consequense of his sin, by watching his little innocent son, the product of that sin, die. But, nonetheless, David cried out to God, "Create in me a new heart, O my God and renew a right spirit within me!" and God readily answered his heartfelt confession of his sin and forgave David. David, this man who did this terrible thing, then becomes known to all of history as "the man after God's own heart."

Then there are things which are cultural in nature. We are held to the standards of our culture somewhat, in that we are to walk blamelessly before both God and man. Polygamy was the norm in Old Testament times, God didn't institute it, nor does He seem to condemn it, but His Spirit recorded all the inherent problems with polygamy. I mean, truly, after reading about the family strife between Leah and Rachel and all the kids, or Solomon's downfall, does anyone really think that polygamy is a good thing?

Polygamy also was NOT the norm in New Testament times, and Paul directed Timothy to choose elders based upon the fact that they were the husband of ONE wife. Polygamy in those days would have been an affront to the culture, rather than the norm. Which is one of the reasons why the fundamental Mormons have it all wrong in our culture of today. (Of course, fundamental Mormons have bigger problems than even polygamy.)

I find reading the Old Testament stories to really give me clarity on how God interacts with us, both within our selves as well as within our culture. I don't think one should read it as though everything that it records has God's stamp of approval and one definately should not assume that all of it shows God's will for us today.

Hope this helps.

BTW katsa, I really like your questions and your posts. You seem to be so eager to search out how one should walk before God. I know that maybe at times the forum seems to give conflicting answers, but I'm sure that God is working in you to show you the way. Your questions are good ones for Christians to consider.

 

[Rick W]

The Father doesn't support divorce either but made provision to tolerate man's nature. Just because God "tolerates" something doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Vic C.]

The Father doesn't support divorce either but made provision to tolerate man's nature. Just because God "tolerates" something doesn't mean it's right.

Agreed. God does have a permissive will and we see so many examples of it throughout Scripture. He also gives us His moral Law so we will know what is and isn't within His will. He may allow us the "freedom" to do certain things, but we can never say we weren't warned of the consequences, whether they be on this side of life in the form of missing out on His many blessings, or on the "other" side of life, where our eternal future hangs in the balance.

I too enjoy participating in your questions, katsa... and Handy, you really surprise me at times.

Polygamy also was NOT the norm in New Testament times, and Paul directed Timothy to choose elders based upon the fact that they were the husband of ONE wife. Polygamy in those days would have been an affront to the culture, rather than the norm. Which is one of the reasons why the fundamental Mormons have it all wrong in our culture of today. (Of course, fundamental Mormons have bigger problems than even polygamy.)

So many Christians would say Paul was speaking of men, who for whatever reason, had remarried. I do think most here, including me, would agree to what you said.

 

[antitox]

As I understand it, it also hold that it was an area of permissive will due to the hardness of man's heart. Deut 17 tells that in the requirements of a king that he is not to multiply wives for himself. Obviously, a higher standard was given here for the purpose of keeping the king's heart on an even keel since his decisions affected the whole country. Nevertheless, Solomon and David were among the many kings who violated that, yet we heard of no direct judgment from God regarding it. However, we do see sad circumstances that could have been prevented within it.

God tolerated alot in those days even though those things weren't right. We see God's statement where a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife. Wife being singular in that statement. The scenario was the the same with divorce and Jesus later made it clear what was intended.

 

[katsa]

Thanks, kinda get the picture but not the answer :crazyeyes: about drunkeness yup I must admit that drinking is not a sin but drunkeness is, although some Churches take it upon themselves to ban any beer and alcohol which is not biblical since Jesus himself ordained this drink and infact made the best wine.

 

[Lewis]

Well God said he wanted His earth populated, he commanded this twice.

 

[Guest]

Well God said he wanted His earth populated, he commanded this twice.

How populated? Is there a limit to how many people can live on Earth? It is surely evident that Earth has a limited amount of resources, but if we keep being "fruitful" then we will end up in a lot of trouble. Christians are against imposing limitations on the number of children in a family, and some Christians are against birth control (condoms, pills, etc.).

I think that we're in a conflicting situation.

 

[handy]

I don't want to get too far off topic, but I think we underestimate just how immense the world is and how abundant the resouces are. The issues of overpopulation are not because the world is too small to support us, it's because we are so messed up as a species that we, through political reasons, keep a large portion of our population from enjoying the resources.

 

[handy]

And, BTW, Welcome to the forum! :smt006 I hope you come often and share lots!

 

[carolinasteve]

Well God said he wanted His earth populated, he commanded this twice.

How populated? Is there a limit to how many people can live on Earth? It is surely evident that Earth has a limited amount of resources, but if we keep being "fruitful" then we will end up in a lot of trouble. Christians are against imposing limitations on the number of children in a family, and some Christians are against birth control (condoms, pills, etc.).

Earth's "limited" resources are only limited to the point that God chooses to limit them. The natural order that God has created is a regenerative one. It is only by our disobedience by being poor stewards of these natural resources found in God's creation(pollution, gluttonous consumption,etc) that we have come to SEEM to be running out of resources. We are not running out. We are running out of enough to support our extravegant lifestyles which we have impossed on ourselves.
The reason that SOME Christians(as well as some non believers) are against imposing limitations on the number of children in a family, is because children are, or should be, considered a blessing from God, not a hinderance. Never in the Bible will you read of someone being cursed with a large family,only blessed. It is also a testament of faith to be wiling to accept God's blessing of a large family. Is there any reason to believe,for a Christian, that if God blesses a family with children, that He will not provide the means to care for those children? The epidemic occurs when those who do not believe continue to concieve with no hope or intent of calling on God to provide for them, and those children end up being percieved as a burden on the Godless family, or couple, who were destitute to begin with.
The bottom line is, God does not tell us to do anything, unless He fully intends on providing the means by which to do so successfully. If the opposite were true, He would be guilty of setting us up for failure. If that were His interest, why even bother with the act of sacrifice for atonement?

 

[handy]

Welcome to you too, carolinasteve. :smt039

 

[Guest]

And, BTW, Welcome to the forum! I hope you come often and share lots!

First of all: Thank You!

Secondly: my point still stands, people are destroying the environment which, according to the Bible, God created. We are destroying God's work and we take pride in it! Our cities are expanding into the wilderness, we are destroying species of animals, we are saturating the world with pollution, etc.

But the fact is that the Earth CAN be over-populated by people for the simple reason that the Earth (as big as it is) still has a finite size which does not grow. Given the fact that the Earth's size does not increase, we can safely conclude that if the human population continues to grow then it will reach a limit (which will be destructive).

 

[Guest]

Earth's "limited" resources are only limited to the point that God chooses to limit them. The natural order that God has created is a regenerative one. It is only by our disobedience by being poor stewards of these natural resources found in God's creation(pollution, gluttonous consumption,etc) that we have come to SEEM to be running out of resources. We are not running out. We are running out of enough to support our extravegant lifestyles which we have impossed on ourselves.

Thus wealth is "evil" and Christians should not encourage the insufficient ways of Capitalism (which is a different post). Yes, Earth's resources are regenerative, but that only works as long as they're allowed to regenerate, and over-population will not allow enough resources to be regenerated. Think about it this way, what happens to locusts when they find a field full of grass: they multiply and they eat it, then most of them die because they run out of grass. The same thing will happen with humans, but the potential impacts are worse- Earth may regenerate, but we may die off before that can happen.

The reason that SOME Christians(as well as some non believers) are against imposing limitations on the number of children in a family, is because children are, or should be, considered a blessing from God, not a hinderance. Never in the Bible will you read of someone being cursed with a large family,only blessed. It is also a testament of faith to be wiling to accept God's blessing of a large family. Is there any reason to believe,for a Christian, that if God blesses a family with children, that He will not provide the means to care for those children?

The bible is written when the advances in medicine were little to none, so of course children are a blessing, but the mortality rate at the time was MUCH higher! Nobody says that there should be no children, nor that they are a burden, but the fact that the global population keeps increasing IS an issue. God never says that we should have a minimum of 2 children per family, so if we have 1 child per family, then there is no sin.

The epidemic occurs when those who do not believe continue to concieve with no hope or intent of calling on God to provide for them, and those children end up being percieved as a burden on the Godless family, or couple, who were destitute to begin with.

I think that you're wrong here. As I mentioned previously extra children are not a burden, they're just not necessary! I think you're not understanding this: suppose the whole world was full of Christians (and they were all "good Christians"). Now they follow God's suggestion and they populate the earth. The question now is "How many people can fit on the Earth?" The fact is that if the population keeps growing without a limit, the most basic of supply needs will not be met (not even mentioning the extras), I'm talking about food and water! We know that food won't magically appear out of nowhere when we reach the natural limit, we live in the real world and we know it does not happen and it will not happen! To test this limit will be absolutely foolish!

The bottom line is, God does not tell us to do anything, unless He fully intends on providing the means by which to do so successfully. If the opposite were true, He would be guilty of setting us up for failure. If that were His interest, why even bother with the act of sacrifice for atonement?

Good point! Why would God ask us to do something that seems impossible to do? Well, that may be God's Will, we can't question him/her! Which definition of "sacrifice for atonement" are you concerned with: "ransom to Satan", "penal substitution" or "God's love for humans"? In any case, God may still uphold his "promise", and once we have all died a miserable death from destroying the Earth, we may be worthy enough to go into Heaven... I suppose that is a perverse view of the end of the world, but one can only speculate!

 

[Guest]

I don't want to get too far off topic

Sorry, this is partly my fault! I suppose we should move this conversation of over-population to a separate topic.

 

[handy]

You've brought up a lot of issues, for sure!

One thing that I do believe though is that God created man to live eternally here on earth, and His commandment that Adam and Eve be 'fruitful' came before the fall. Had Adam and Eve not sinned, nor any of their progeny, then we all would be right here, not just you and I and the rest of the 6 billion alive now, but everyone who has ever been born. And, the way I see it, when God is ready, He will create a new heaven and a new earth, and all the redeemed will live together, along with the animals. It seem incredible, well it is incredible, but nonetheless it is what God inspired His Spirit to tell us.

Again, I go back to how immense the world is. Think about this:

Texas has 171,904,640 acres. Each acre has 43,560 square feet. That equals a whopping 748,998,518,400 square feet in Texas. Now, there are 6,000,000,000, give or take, people who live on this planet. If my research data was correct and I did the math correctly, we can stand every man, woman and child currently living on this planet in the state of Texas, and still have room to spare.

It's a big, big world. We don't utilize our resources correctly no. But that doesn't mean that the resources aren't there. However, I do agree with you that we are horrible stewards for God's creation. We can and should do better.

 

[Guest]

Again, I go back to how immense the world is. Think about this:

Texas has 171,904,640 acres. Each acre has 43,560 square feet. That equals a whopping 748,998,518,400 square feet in Texas. Now, there are 6,000,000,000, give or take, people who live on this planet. If my research data was correct and I did the math correctly, we can stand every man, woman and child currently living on this planet in the state of Texas, and still have room to spare.

It's a big, big world. We don't utilize our resources correctly no. But that doesn't mean that the resources aren't there. However, I do agree with you that we are horrible stewards for God's creation. We can and should do better.

Yes, the density of the population will be about the same as NY city if you do that. Of course this is a figurative description of how populated the earth is, but I propose that we move this argument into a separate topic, since we're getting so far of track: http://christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=30183

 

[Vic C.]

I don't want to get too far off topic, but I think we underestimate just how immense the world is and how abundant the resources are. The issues of overpopulation are not because the world is too small to support us, it's because we are so messed up as a species that we, through political reasons, keep a large portion of our population from enjoying the resources.

OH, can I get a big Amen for that? The problems are greed and poor distribution. :-?

 

[Guest]

OH, can I get a big Amen for that? The problems are greed and poor distribution. :-?

Check out the new discussion I started: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=30183
It addresses a lot of the issues we mentioned here and it keeps this posting on topic.

 

[Christian Commando]

People-

Let us consider this first and foremost-

In the beginning, God created one man and one woman to start humankind. Yet, you'll not find where God prohibits man at first, when first propgating the earth, against poligamy. Yet, after man had populated enough of the earth, God then did so as demonstrated in Kings, Deut. etc.

But, realize too, if poligamy is so offensive for how man propogated back in the beginning, what about who Abel had married or Cain? They married thier own sisters. Question that? God declares all men are of one blood".

In other words, all of you and I. if were possible, we could trace our blood lines clear back to Adam and Eve.

Not only that, but God in those days of Leviticus, Deut. and more, then set a "Law" against seeing close relatives naked, or marrying them, etc. But, remember, mankind had to poulate the earth somehow, and with only one man and one woman to start the process, what can you expect to happen at first?

God Bless!!