Precious little written down from the MAIN figure.

[handy]

There is a lot of good stuff, truth and wisdom in the above two posts.

Bottom line, Orion, is that if there were more of Jesus' words written down for you, that would just be more for you to doubt and reject.

If you find the "red" words to be the ONLY words that you trust as of now, fine. There is enough of what Christ did say for you to find salvation. I can attest to the truth of this because it was by reading the account of Christ and what He said written in the Gospel of John that brought about my own salvation.

One more word of advice, don't seek philosophical truth, seek after the Holy Spirit. As Gabby said, millions upon millions of people have clearly found salvation through what was written down. As Free pointed out, what was written down was done so EXACTLY that we could and would find salvation.

And, what I am going to say, offensive or not, you are, purposefully or not, copping out by using what wasn't written down as an excuse to not follow what was.

 

[Devekut]

It's an interesting question Orion, and there are other answers besides those who believe in sola-scriptura.

The earliest Christians did not have a Bible. They relied, not only on the oral communciation of the message of the gospel, but they also placed strong worth in the traditions and structure of the existing Christian community at that time.

I think Catholics would approach the question you posed by mentioning the Deposit of Faith. That Christ gave the Christian Church not only inspired scripture, not only the inspired mechanism to interpret that scripture, but the inspired means to arrive at all the neccessary implications of what was recieved by the Apostles. In otherwords, it is believed by us that Christ gave the original Christian community the Holy Spirit to guide them [as a community].

In short, Catholics believe that Christ formed out of his heart an Apostolic Community that expresses Christ's gospel through many mechanisms, both oral and written.

But what we have are many various denominations that have doctrines different than the next denomination and even fighting amongst specific denominations about doctrine that both accuse the other of misinterpretting. More of Jesus's own words would have, most likely, stopped a lot of church fighting centuries before they started.

The Church recognizes that Jesus' words alone are not enough to stop mis-interpretation. No matter what is written will be naturally be twisted. Thus it is believed that there is only one community, that being the Apostolic Community, that has the authority to interpret scriptures according to God's intention. This can not be done on and individual to individual basis, rather it is believed that God hands the doctrines of the Faith, biblically derived or compatible, down to His Church. I really only know of two Christian communities that have ever made this claim.

 

[Arj]

I spent my life growing up in the roman catholic church but wasnt saved untill i heard the gospel told by a man outside of the r.c.church.God saved me,not traditions.

 

[unred typo]

The Church recognizes that Jesus' words alone are not enough to stop mis-interpretation. No matter what is written will be naturally be twisted.

Jesus words, when heeded, are enough to stop misinterpretation. What part of ‘Love one another’ and ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ and ‘Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy’, do we not understand? It is because we want him to say what he does not say and not say what he does, that we have so many differing opinions.

James had a good grasp of what Jesus taught. Here’s an excerpt from chapter 4:
1From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
You lust, and have not: you kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: you fight and war, yet you have not, because you ask not.
You ask, and receive not, because you ask amiss, that you may consume it upon your lusts.
You adulterers and adulteresses, know you not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Do ye think that the scripture says in vain, The spirit that dwells in us lusts to envy?
But he gives more grace. Wherefore he says, God resists the proud, but gives grace unto the humble.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

From my perspective, it seems as if the Christians are all in agreement that the whole book is all ab out the MAIN figure. :

 

[Orion]

First of all, I don't doubt the words of Jesus. That is the main focus of this thread. I was just saying that having more of Jesus words and less of James, Paul, John, etc. would have been better. . . . . Jesus said great things and it is enough for people to be drawn to him through them.

But look at the church. Even on this board, you have fighting about, for example, whether armenianism or calvinism is correct. That's just one example, but a good one. Why is that? They both can't be right, but both seem to have scripture to back up their claims. Same with pre, mid, or post tribulation "catching away of the saints". Even the doctrine of what happens after people die is debated . . . . . . . and many of these can be seen in topics on this board with MANY pages.

Again, the focus of this thread isn't about "finding reasons not to believe". And I am a Christian, and go to a Bible centered church. My troubles with "not seeing my relationship with Jesus as personal" is beside the point. If we can stick to the idea of the OP, that would be wonderful.

Again, we can't even agree [fully] on how a person is saved, or what it means to be a Christian [as is seen in posts on this board], so how are we supposed to REALLY tell people the truth? The truth is that Jesus died for people's sins and they need to know about it. But what did JESUS say about this? Would Jesus be Armenian, or Calvanist? [Again, just one example, and NOT to start debate on which one is correct.]

 

[Orion]

Oh, just as a quick side note, Gabby, . . . I DO pray that prayer you posted. . . a lot, actually. I am praying that God will reveal things to me that WILL get my attention about ALL of the things in my mind that I am asking for, so I hope that prayer is answered.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Orion :
First of all, I don't doubt the words of Jesus. That is the main focus of this thread. I was just saying that having more of Jesus words and less of James, Paul, John, etc. would have been better. . . . . Jesus said great things and it is enough for people to be drawn to him through them.

But look at the church. Even on this board, you have fighting about, for example, whether armenianism or calvinism is correct. That's just one example, but a good one. Why is that? They both can't be right, but both seem to have scripture to back up their claims. Same with pre, mid, or post tribulation "catching away of the saints". Even the doctrine of what happens after people die is debated . . . . . . . and many of these can be seen in topics on this board with MANY pages.

Again, the focus of this thread isn't about "finding reasons not to believe". And I am a Christian, and go to a Bible centered church. My troubles with "not seeing my relationship with Jesus as personal" is beside the point. If we can stick to the idea of the OP, that would be wonderful.

Again, we can't even agree [fully] on how a person is saved, or what it means to be a Christian [as is seen in posts on this board], so how are we supposed to REALLY tell people the truth? The truth is that Jesus died for people's sins and they need to know about it. But what did JESUS say about this? Would Jesus be Armenian, or Calvanist? [Again, just one example, and NOT to start debate on which one is correct.]

These are good points. Look at what Jesus said as he departed this earth. Last words are very important, I feel. [Matthew 28:18-20:
And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Nowhere is there an admonishment to write this stuff down and keep it. If it were important to have a perfect written record, don’t you think Jesus would have started it while he was still here teaching them in the streets and hillsides? I think he wanted them to depend on the Holy Spirit to take his words and make them real in their lives, so they would be lead by God himself and not a list of do’s and don’ts.

Romans 8:2-4
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We can obey Christ by reading his words in the Bible and following them, and there‘s nothing wrong with that, but the purpose of his coming was not to give us the KJV or even the New Testament section of the Bible. It was to lead us into the way of eternal life. We don’t even need a Bible for that. The Holy Spirit is perfectly capable to lead us if we are willing and open to his guidance. The question is, are we willing to follow and listening with our hearts? The written words are for those who are hard of hearing.

:fadein:

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

First of all, I don't doubt the words of Jesus. That is the main focus of this thread. I was just saying that having more of Jesus words and less of James, Paul, John, etc. would have been better. . . . .

This is what I keep hearing over and over Orion. I hope that if I show this to you, you will hear yourself saying it. "I was just saying ...would have been better..." What I hear you say over and over is that you believe that you have a better idea. God did not do it right, he should have done it your way. Can you see it now? You obviously have a problem with Scripture being the Word of God. Lay your Bible down, and talk to God. Tell God that you don't believe that the Bible is His Word. Tell God that if the Bible is true, then you want to believe it.

...But look at the church. Even on this board, you have fighting about, for example, whether armenianism or calvinism is correct. That's just one example, but a good one. Why is that?

Because people, (like you for example) lean on their own understanding. The more of the truth that someone wants, the more they draw close to God. The closer that they draw to God, the more that God reveals to them. The more humble and submissive someone is to God, the more truth that God gives them. The more that someone leans on their own understanding, believes that God should have done it different, or wants Gods ways to fit into their own ideas, the more they are going to hold on to their own ways. It takes a humble spirit to say to God that they want to know what the truth is, even if it means that they have to change what they believe.

You have your eyes on man. You see imperfect man being the church. You see imperfect man writing Scripture. It is entirely possible for imperfect man to do things perfectly. If God's hand is on Him, and the imperfect man is wanting to serve the perfect God, then the thing can be done right. Babies need not be thrown out with the bathwater.

They both can't be right, but both seem to have scripture to back up their claims. Same with pre, mid, or post tribulation "catching away of the saints". Even the doctrine of what happens after people die is debated . . . . . . . and many of these can be seen in topics on this board with MANY pages.

This reinforces my point. Rather than asking God what the truth is about the tribulation, the rapture, or other doctrines, they choose to believe something that someone else has taught them. It takes a heart that wants to do things God's way. A desire for righteousness. And a belief that God is right.

Again, the focus of this thread isn't about "finding reasons not to believe". And I am a Christian, and go to a Bible centered church. My troubles with "not seeing my relationship with Jesus as personal" is beside the point.
If we can stick to the idea of the OP, that would be wonderful.

Nah. Everything that you post is filtered through what you believe. Your OP says that there is precious little written down from the MAIN figure. I am standing on the belief that the entire Bible is about the MAIN figure. The stuff that is written by Peter, James, Paul, etc. is true. If it appears to contradict, then it is something that the reader does not understand, not something wrong with what is written. The thing to do when encountering an apparent contradiction, is to pray. Suggested prayer: "God I don't understand this, but it is in Your Scripture, so it must be true. Will you give me understanding of this passage, make me see that the things that seem to contradict are in harmony, and help me to let go of false beliefs."

Again, we can't even agree [fully] on how a person is saved, or what it means to be a Christian [as is seen in posts on this board], so how are we supposed to REALLY tell people the truth?

Those who are filled with knowledge of the truth will be used by God to reach those who are seeking the truth. Those who are seeking a doctrine that fits into their own understanding ~ will find someone to teach that to them as well.

Luk 11:9-12 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

God is not going to tell you to seek the truth and then not make it available to you.

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This [is] the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

He will call you to the path that you should walk, He will not force you on it. He wants people who are willing to follow him.

The truth is that Jesus died for people's sins and they need to know about it. But what did JESUS say about this? Would Jesus be Armenian, or Calvanist? [Again, just one example, and NOT to start debate on which one is correct.]

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

If you are seeking the Kingdom and his righteousness, then you won't have to worry about what labels stick to it. Search the truth, then if Calvinist line up with it, so be it. If Baptist line up with part of it and Pentecostals line up with part of it, so be it. If you are seeking His truth, then you have the power of God behind you to rebuke the father of lies.

I used to have a friend that would say "Eat the fish, and throw away the bones."

If you are in a right relationship with Jesus Christ, then you can ask questions and he will answer you. When the Holy Spirit quickens something to your heart, then you know that you know that you know. Blessed assurance. When you are in a right relationship with Jesus Christ, then you know that God is righteous, God is perfect, God knows all things, God sees all things, God has a purpose and a plan. When you are in a right relationship with Jesus Christ, you don't have ideas that contradict His, that you think are better than His. Like His choice of people and the way He wrote His Word.

 

[Orion]

Well, Gabby, I hear what you're saying, and would love to openly follow the idea that what we read in the entirety of the Bible WAS from God, but when I want to have faith to believe that, something comes along that creates the conflict, and they aren't superficial things either. When I see them, though, I don't automatically say, "See, the Bible is not true." I may say, "What we see as literal, may have been alegory." Alegorized stories have been used for as long as poeple have been writing. Their truths still are powerful regardless of whether or not they actually happened.

I'm getting side tracked from this topic. Okay, if I pray your prayer, and I do (sincerely), and yet feel as though I'm being drawn "by the Holy Spirit" to a conclusion that isn't held by church doctrine, what does that mean for me? If everything that we need to know is verbatum as our Canon has it written down, and that's all we have/need to go on, then what use do we have of the Holy Spirit? I may to concure with unread typo on this, that we DO need to rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us. If I feel that my way is how the Holy Spirit is guiding me, then surely I won't be led astray.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...Nowhere is there an admonishment to write this stuff down and keep it. ...

You better read it again. You missed it. I posted a few verses for you.

We don’t even need a Bible for that.

WOW

...The written words are for those who are hard of hearing. :fadein:

LISTEN UP!

Exd 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book...

Exd 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words....

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

Several times God warns about adding to or taking from the Written Word. Can you feel the sand shifting under your feet?

Seems to be a hook in your post, Typo. What are you fishing for?

 

[unred typo]

quote by Orion:
Sure, . . IF. . . people are actually hearing FROM the Holy Spirit, AND if they are interpretting correctly. I, for one, will not rely on the words of a man to say whether or not he HAD heard from the Holy Spirit because not even HE can be completely certain.

I'm not sure if I've heard from the Holy Spirit in all my 39 years of living. Would I know if I had? . . . . . . . . . . That is a good question. Perhaps too many outside influences plague our world that "muddy up that stream". I would place "doctrine" (and the fighting amongst churches) within those influences as well.

The things that are important to God will be apparent to you if you really want to know them.
Let me repeat Gabbylittleangel:

“God is not going to tell you to seek the truth and then not make it available to you.

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This [is] the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.â€Â

Have a little faith, Orion. It sounds like you do, so go with that. There’s precious little of that these days:

Luke 18:8
…Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?


:-?

 

[Orion]

Thanks, unred typo. I do have a little faith and I am hoping that it will pay off eventually when the Holy Spirit brings words of wisdom into my spirit. I will have to trust that I will recognize it when it happens. :

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
unred typo wrote:...Nowhere is there an admonishment to write this stuff down and keep it. …

You better read it again. You missed it. I posted a few verses for you.
unred typo wrote: We don’t even need a Bible for that.

WOW
unred typo wrote:...The written words are for those who are hard of hearing.


LISTEN UP!

Exd 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book...

Exd 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words....

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; …

Gabby, I meant that Jesus wasn’t concerned about having a new set of scriptures to refer to. I don’t think you can find him telling the disciples to take any notes. He didn’t tell them they couldn’t write letters about what he said, but his preferred primary method of telling the gospel was one on one, by word of mouth and shown to the world through the love that they had for one another. He told them the Holy Spirit would bring those things that they would need to remember to their mind. They decided to write them down, without a command to do it, unless I really did miss something. Won’t be the first time…

As for your listed verses, they, for the most part, are Old testament writings and yes, they are profitable but Jesus came to bring us a “new and living way“, the old way having not been suitable for holding the ‘new wine.’ The exception is Revelation, where Jesus does say to write these things, not the rest of the New Testament, but THESE THINGS that John heard and saw in this vision, this prophesy, into a book. That book was not the present day New Testament waiting for a last chapter, as you apparently would lead us to believe.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :

Several times God warns about adding to or taking from the Written Word. Can you feel the sand shifting under your feet?

Are you referring to the warnings in Revelation? By making those warnings refer to the entire Bible, adding 65 more books, you have violated your own caveat.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
Seems to be a hook in your post, Typo. What are you fishing for?

No hooks, Gabby, I fish with a net, like Jesus did. :

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Gabby, I meant that Jesus wasn’t concerned about having a new set of scriptures to refer to. I don’t think you can find him telling the disciples to take any notes. He didn’t tell them they couldn’t write letters about what he said, but his preferred primary method of telling the gospel was one on one, by word of mouth and shown to the world through the love that they had for one another. He told them the Holy Spirit would bring those things that they would need to remember to their mind. They decided to write them down, without a command to do it, unless I really did miss something. Won’t be the first time…

New set of Scriptures? The NT builds on the foundation of the OT. The NT is the new Covenant. The implication I am seeing is that the NT was not God's idea, but that of some folks that decided on their own to take notes, and God decided to let it slide; is that how you see it?

Are you referring to the warnings in Revelation? By making those warnings refer to the entire Bible, adding 65 more books, you have violated your own caveat.

It is in there a couple of times. Here for instance:

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Now it seems as if the New Testament itself is being questioned as to if it is from God or not. So, if the NT was just a bunch of guys writing the gospels, and letters, and somehow they ended up getting stuck into the Bible, then They would be violating that caveat also, wouldn't they?

Orion, if something is getting in the way of your believing everytime you try to get a hold of your faith, it sounds to me like your problem is with something from the dark side. Rebuke it in the name of Jesus. If you are a Christian, as you profess, then greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

It seems to be coming down to the question "How does anyone know anything about anything?" :-?
It might be a good idea to examine the foundation that you have build your beliefs on.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
unred typo wrote:
Gabby, I meant that Jesus wasn’t concerned about having a new set of scriptures to refer to. I don’t think you can find him telling the disciples to take any notes. He didn’t tell them they couldn’t write letters about what he said, but his preferred primary method of telling the gospel was one on one, by word of mouth and shown to the world through the love that they had for one another. He told them the Holy Spirit would bring those things that they would need to remember to their mind. They decided to write them down, without a command to do it, unless I really did miss something. Won’t be the first time…


New set of Scriptures? The NT builds on the foundation of the OT. The NT is the new Covenant. The implication I am seeing is that the NT was not God's idea, but that of some folks that decided on their own to take notes, and God decided to let it slide; is that how you see it?

At some point, the leaders in the church may have been inspired to write down their recollections. It’s not a bad idea, per se, but I think it was not God’s original plan, just as Israel having an earthly king was not what he had in mind for his chosen people. “Give us a book, give us a book, one we can carry with us, everywhere we go, like the Pharisees and scribes had…only bigger than their Phylacteries, but smaller than a breadbox.†That’s how I see it.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
unred typo wrote:Are you referring to the warnings in Revelation? By making those warnings refer to the entire Bible, adding 65 more books, you have violated your own caveat.


It is in there a couple of times. Here for instance:

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

This is a warning not to add to the commandments that God gave to Moses. It means not to add your own commands to them, like tacking on something like: and the Lord said “thou shalt not eat broccoli, neither cooked nor raw, in thy tents nor in thy neighbor’s tents nor cause your sons and your daughters to eat broccoli, but it shall be cast to the swine to be trampled underfoot, neither shalt thou make any image of broccoli, cartoon or real, with or without eyes, for it is an abomination.†JK. Love broccoli, love veggie tales.
It seems to me that those hundreds of minor additions that seem to be inserted by the Sanhedrin does violate that command as well, but that’s Old Testament stuff. We don’t live by those laws for the Jews anyways.

quote by Gabbylittleangel :
Now it seems as if the New Testament itself is being questioned as to if it is from God or not. So, if the NT was just a bunch of guys writing the gospels, and letters, and somehow they ended up getting stuck into the Bible, then They would be violating that caveat also, wouldn't they?

No, because they don’t say that the warning not to ‘add to Revelation’ means not to ‘add to the Bible.’ You have taken the words of Revelation ( ‘do not add to the words of the prophesy of this book’ ) and changed them to refer not just to the words of ‘this prophesy of Revelation,’ but to all the 66 books of the Bible. Merely putting them together in a book doesn’t change the warning or expand it to cover things it didn’t include. The reader is supposed to have enough sense not to apply a warning they read in Revelation to include the rest of the Bible, since the Bible wasn't even the Bible then. You should be vaaaary waaaary of doing that. :o

 

[Orion]

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Now it seems as if the New Testament itself is being questioned as to if it is from God or not. So, if the NT was just a bunch of guys writing the gospels, and letters, and somehow they ended up getting stuck into the Bible, then They would be violating that caveat also, wouldn't they?

Orion, if something is getting in the way of your believing everytime you try to get a hold of your faith, it sounds to me like your problem is with something from the dark side. Rebuke it in the name of Jesus. If you are a Christian, as you profess, then greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

It seems to be coming down to the question "How does anyone know anything about anything?" :-?
It might be a good idea to examine the foundation that you have build your beliefs on.

I don't know what you mean by "something from the dark side". But here's an example and it comes from your post about the laws of the old testiment. There were MANY laws in the OT that we [Christians] would never follow today. We would never condone stoning an unruly son to death, or a woman caught in adultery/pregnant before being wed, killing anyone who professes to be a witch, etc. . . . . There are a lot of them in there, and those are just a few. We've "picked and chosen" which of those laws we are happy to stand up and profess to, such as how God is against homosexuals, but not about stoning those who do such things. If Jesus didn't do away with the old laws, then why don't we still do these things as commanded? We don't even kill animals in sacrifice, . . . . because of the cross. But I don't see any commandment that said that it was no longer needed. . . . . . . . . . . . .well, except from God, who said [and I forget where] something along the lines of not desiring the blood of bulls and goats, but a clean heart. . . . . . . okay I forget the verse, but I'm sure you know which one that is.

The others are of scientific origin, evidences that go against what the Bible says about certain events. . . . . . . The age of the earth [though the Bible never states when, we interpret that, and probably wrongly], the world wide flood, to name a few. Let me say this straight. When there isn't evidence against it, faith works [for me]. When evidence is there and is greater against whatever story, and even evidence that is obviously contrary, yet true, then I can't retain faith, because I'm not one who embraces "blind faith" that goes against what we can see (that which as been analyzed, tested, and found to be repeatable).

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Goin in circles.
Round and round and round and round and round.
Where one circle ends, another begins.
Look how far we had to come to get back where we started from.

Maybe next time will be different. 8-)

 

[Orion]

Feel free to add to your rather cryptic post, Gabby!

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Feel free to add to your rather cryptic post, Gabby!

I am focusing on the root of your faith, while you keep producing the fruit of your faith.
The fruit of your topics may seem different to you, but I see it all coming from the same root problem.

Different threads. Different topics. Same redundant problem.