Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Papa Zoom]

First off, let me just say you will never convince me that Paul is saying something to the readers of the letter, but not about them. You may convince others on this forum, but there is no possible way to convince me. I just don't want you to think that I will change my mind.

Secondly, if this is a Hebrew praise then was Paul once again inserting part of it into the second letter to the Thessalonians? Halfway through the letter(end of chapter 2)? Or was he not saying this to the Gentile believers, just singling out the Jewish believers among them?

Thirdly, Paul, the messenger to the Gentiles, the one who is to bring both Jew and Gentile together in Christ - he, is driving a wedge between Jew and Gentile?

Paul does not make a distinction between two groups with the word "and" in verse 1. If you look at the Greek you will see that the sentence would actually read;

"To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus".

One singular group.

He is only further saying that this letter is not for those calling themselves saints, but those who are saints which is understood by their faithfulness in Christ.

u

You are correct. It is one singular group.

 

[Papa Zoom]

No there are not for today, since all scriptures were fulfilled in 70 AD.


JLB

Someone needs to define what they mean if they suggest the scriptures are not for us today. What exactly do you mean by that?

 

[JLB]

Someone needs to define what they mean if they suggest the scriptures are not for us today. What exactly do you mean by that?

That was an inside joke, between Reba and I, concerning Preterism.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

All you have to do is check the Greek text and you'll see that the word "kia" (and) is in the passage. However, I never said that Ephesians 1:3-12 was for Jews. I said it was speaking of Jews. There's a big difference. It seems that people don't really pay attention to what is being said. I'm not surprise that you guys are rejecting what I said, I doesn't seem to me that you're reading it. I showed from several different passages that Paul is making a distinction between two different groups. Yet neither of you have engaged my post to show how it is wrong. Proper exegesis requires that we follow the rules of language and grammar. We don't get to make it up.

For those who may be reading along. For a more in depth and verse by verse breakdown of Ephesians 1:3-12 here is a link to paper on the subject.

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf

Ephesians 1:1-12 [NIV]
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus,a d the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—6 to the praise of his glorious grace,p which he has freely given us in the One he loves.q 7 In him we have redemption through his blood,s the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the richest of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mysteryu of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.a 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,c the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal,d the promised Holy Spirit,e 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


To read this as being written to one group "the Faithful Saints" of which Paul includes himself, and to read in again as addressed to two distinct groups "us/our" and "you" creates two such radically different messages, that they are NOT the same Gospel!

To imply, as you have, that the promises of EPH 1:3-12 are for Jews in order to fulfill an OT promise to the nation of Israel and should not be applied to Gentiles as a promise for all believers is not a trivial point to make. Your claim amounts to one that Jewish Christians are
"blessed in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians were "chose in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians were "predestined for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians have "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists).

Gentile Christians were "marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" ... Jewish Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists).

This is not the tone of the message of the rest of scripture and is very different than the meaning derived from Paul addressing one group in which Greek and Jew become a trivial detail and the promises are for the True (spiritual) Israel, not those who are Jews in flesh only. This may not be your intent, but this is how your words ARE being heard and why they are encountering so much resistance.

*****

It seems that people don't really pay attention to what is being said. I'm not surprise that you guys are rejecting what I said, I doesn't seem to me that you're reading it.

Respectfully, we are reading it. Perhaps too closely, but we are reading it ...

I agree totally. But when it came to the things of Christ, the promises of God to believers in Christ, Paul made great strides to make sure Gentiles understood their inclusion in the promises of God to Israel.

Yes, but remember that Israel had hundreds of years of history with God before the Gentiles in Christ entered the picture. It is this history that Paul is writing about in Ephesians 1

That's the point. God chose people through which He would fulfill the promise to David. It doesn't say they were chosen to be saved.

I may have misunderstood, but I read you claiming Ephesians 1 is ...
1. about historic Israel (not spiritual Israel)
2. about promises to David
3. not about Gentiles being included in the the promises (you were refuting Nathan making that very point).
4. not about "chosen to be saved".

In my opinion, while Ephesians 1 is about the fulfillment of the promises to Eve and Abraham and David, it appears to me to be ALL ABOUT the Spiritual Israel, the children of Abraham by faith, those with circumcised hearts. It is about the natural branches that were not cut off and the wild branches grafted on all of which derive value and life from connection to the True Vine. The WE/US of Ephesians includes Paul (who was not a gentile but is part of the Faithful Saints, and the YOU of Ephesus excludes Paul (because the statement does not apply to him). There is no division of the body in the lesson or promise, just acknowledgement of the reality ... Paul was not a gentile from Ephesus.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper
I like how you've reconciled the two categories of saved persons in the bible.
Considering persons such as Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, Mary - has always been a problem for me because it always seemed to me that they could NOT say No. It does seem to me that it takes away their free will, which I very much believe in.

But are you speaking about persons such as these?
I'm not sure...

Hello dear one of God. To answer your question, Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, & Mary, God preselected these (new word) for a particular mission....Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen (Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, & Mary) us in him before the foundation of the world, that (Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, & Mary) we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated ( Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, & Mary) us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Now, you say, "has always been a problem for me because it always seemed to me that they could NOT say No. It does seem to me that it takes away their free will, which I very much believe in."Please look at it this way. It is true that they didn't have a choice in being selected for God's Perfect mission for their lives. I know, that if you could ask them, they would say, "Are you kidding? I'm glad that I had no choice, If I had, I might have refused this most wonderful gift and treasured life of service to my wonderful Lord."

I'm so glad that you believe in free will because that applies to those who come to Christ thru the General Call of the Gospel. They have a choice to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's call to be saved.

Thank you for your question.
Love You,
Chopper

 

[Chopper]

I would like to hear, when you have time, how you arrive at there being two categories of believers but one Gospel.

Do the elect not have to believe, but the 'general' ones do?

Thank you for your question Nathan, it's an important one, you're a good thinker.

During my early studies in John Calvin's theology, I saw a flaw in his "Limited Atonement". ("Christ's atonement is adequate to save all people but it is efficient for God's elect only") Most folk understand what Calvin's statement implies. If the atonement of Christ Jesus' finished work on the cross and shed blood for the forgiveness of sins which leads to being efficient for only the Elect, then all others are void of any offer of Salvation.

I saw Calvin's theology of limited atonement as an insult to the Nature of Almighty God, and the purpose of redemption thru His blessed Son Jesus. Because of just one verse in Scripture (there are many) that speak of God not wanting any to perish like ....John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Nathan, I just could not close my eyes as if those verses that speak of God's love for the whole world didn't exist. I was a member of the "General Association Of Regular Baptist Churches" in the late eighty's. I was asked to teach theology in their Bible Institute in Northfield, MA, and teach at their Summer Camp. I had to agree to their doctrinal statement, which included "limited atonement". I could not in good faith, so I refused. Boy o boy, being a Professor at a GARBC Bible Institute is a very big deal, but the Holy Spirit said NO!

It was that incident that pushed my studies and prayers, asking Jesus and His Holy Spirit to show me the Truth. After several months of serious study and prayer, I believe that my answer came from the Spirit to my heart and mind. I had never heard of a "General Call of the Gospel", but when I began to meditate on that position, and search the Scriptures on God's purpose for world, and His design for all men to be saved, the General Call kept making more sense.

The title Evangelist began to make more sense to me, and the spreading of the Gospel world wide. Actually, Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." These last words of the resurrected Lord Jesus seemed to burn in my heart as an answer, and it was good enough for me. So, the General Call of the Gospel was born. To this date, I've not found a like doctrine.

I want you to know Nathan, that both classes of Believers, the Elect & General Call (GC) Believers, have to, at some time in their life, heed the call of the Holy Spirit and believe by faith in Christ Jesus. No one, including the Elect, are saved automatically. The main difference between the two is, The Elect are kept by Christ Jesus and will never be lost again. The GC believers come to Christ by a free will choice, and it's possible to disown Jesus and return to their lost condition. Not so with the Elect Believers.

I hope this answers your questions. If not, I'd be honored to answer any more of your questioning heart.

Love You,
Chopper

 

[Nathan]

I want you to know Nathan, that both classes of Believers, the Elect & General Call (GC) Believers, have to, at some time in their life, heed the call of the Holy Spirit and believe by faith in Christ Jesus. No one, including the Elect, are saved automatically. The main difference between the two is, The Elect are kept by Christ Jesus and will never be lost again. The GC believers come to Christ by a free will choice, and it's possible to disown Jesus and return to their lost condition. Not so with the Elect Believers.

I hope this answers your questions. If not, I'd be honored to answer any more of your questioning heart.

Love You,
Chopper

Interesting Chopper - thanks for your explanation.

I am willing to bet there are more than you realize out there which believe the same as you. I remember a while back listening to a pastor talk about this in some way, and he really struggled with the idea.

Where do you draw this distinction between two types of believers? I would think that of this sort would be clearly defined somewhere in the NT, and not something we would have to conclude as having to be. If that makes sense.

*In order to have two different types of 'calling', there would absolutely have to be two different types of 'faith'. We know all believers are saved through faith - nothing else. But that faith is given by God, and its given to the believer so they can receive the things of God - all the things of God, which part of would be the understanding of why they were called and how they are kept in Christ.

**If God "elects" some - never to be able to fall away; then "calls" others that have the possibility of falling away; Then there would have to be two separate faiths - two different 'paths' of understanding why God calls them and how He keeps them.

You know this is not true. There is only one faith.

*Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

**Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written,“The righteous shall live by faith.”

 

[GodsGrace]

You are a saint, a child of God, who has been washed and cleansed, by His precious blood.

• You are joined to Christ, and are one with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

• A sinner is separate from Christ.

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Hebrews 7:26-27

• A sinner is someone who practices sin, as a lifestyle.

We all struggle with sin and weakness's in our life, however He gives us grace to get free from those things and overcome them, God knows I struggled for years, but got free by confessing my sin to Him, and repenting and learning to be consecrated and set apart unto Him.

Some of my deliverance came from me getting on my face and crying out to God, and some came from other's who worked with me one on one, and by the Spirit helped me get free from iniquities, [some call them generational curses] which are passed down from the father's to the children.

This is especially true with various forms of idolatry in the family line, which in my case was the masonic lodge, which has it's own set of familiar ungodly traits associated with it.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:4-6

The same way He paid the price for our sins, He also paid the price for our iniquities, and for our healing, and for our peace, for everything that pertains to life and godliness.

The same way we receive the forgiveness of sins, is the same way we are healed of sickness, is the same way we are delivered from iniquities... by faith.

An iniquity is different from a sin, in that it is an inward weakness towards a certain sin.

Like a bruise is under the skin, it is deeper than the surface.

A sin is an outward expression of an inward iniquity.

One definition is: Primarily, it denotes "not an action, but the character of an action" (Oehler), and is so distinguished from "sin" (chaTTa'th).



JLB

Hi JLB

If someone were to ask me if I'm a sinner, I'd have to say yes.
But to really understand this, I'd have to get into what it means to have the nature of a sinner. YOU call it a lifestyle.

Also, we'd have to understand what righteousness is.

For now, let's understand the difference between iniquity and sin.
I like how you explained iniquity as the CHARACTER of an action. An action can happen because it's in the nature of a person to commit it. Thus the action goes farther than just being committed, it is the character of that action, the deep rooted reason for it, that causes the action to occur.

Paul speaks of this in Romans.
Romans 3:9-18
These verses speak to the type of person who does not know God. Paul says we are all under sin, both Jew and Gentile.
No one understands.
All have turned from God and have become useless.
No one seeks God.
With their tongues they deceive and cause harm.
Their mouth shows their bitterness.
Their feet rush to sin.
They cause misery and destruction.
They have no fear of God.

This is iniquity. The Sin Nature. The nature we're born with that causes this iniquity because we're slaves to sin.

Iniquity: Very great injustice. Wickedness. A wicked or unjust act.

Sin: A breaking of the Law of God. An immoral act. Wrongdoing. An offense.

Once we have entered into the Kingdom of God and have been made righteous - right with God - and experience His love for us, we can no longer desire to have the Sin Nature.

So that when we do wrong, we are commiting a sin - but it is not from iniquity, but from a mistake, or a weakness. Our sin nature is no longer our ruler and submission to it will be called a sin - which is not part of our nature.

Romans 3:26 God is our justifier, of the one who has faith in Jesus, He does this right now for us to show His righteousness, and to make it possible for us to live in the relationship of being right with God.
Romans 4:13 we are righteous through faith.
Abraham was made righteous by trusting in God. Romans 4.22
So Jesus makes us justified, right with God, Romans 4:25

So, we are right with God but we still sin.
Perhaps, if we understand what a "sinner" is (by nature) then it would not be correct to say that we are sinners. We are children of God, but who will sin since we are not perfect and are only on the road to sanctification but are not sanctified.
Romans 8:1
Acts 20:32

 

[GodsGrace]

Most will find fault with my answer, so I will post the scripture, then point to what the scripture says, however I will view this question from the standpoint of righteous, then from the standpoint of sin and sinner.

Hopefully we can discuss this and reconcile this from the scriptures, for there is reconciling to be done.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7


Please note that this scripture does not say... He who is righteous, practices righteousness.

It says... He who practices righteousness is righteous.




JLB

We're faced with the same question!

Is it:

A. He who is righteous, practices righteousness.
B. He who practices righteousness is righteous.

The question then becomes: Does Jesus make us righteous
Or are we righteous of our own efforts?

It seems to me that the answer is the same as the answer to salvation and whether or not it can be lost.

We are declared righteous by believing in Jesus:
Romans 3:21-22 All who believe in Jesus have been made right in Him.
Philippians 3:9 Paul says that he does not have a righteousness of his own, but one that comes through Christ, from God, on the basis of faith.

Jesus calls us the righteous... Mathew 25:37

However, if we continue in studying righteousness, we find that there are responsibilities involved.
We must seek it Mathew 6:33
We must live it 1 Peter 2:24
We must do what is right 1 John 2.29
(from Zondervan study bible, NIV)

I seem to see here that righteousness is related to sanctification.
We are right with God, we are being sanctified.

If we leave this path, we lose sanctification and our right relationship with God.

Please comment.

 

[atpollard]

We're faced with the same question!

Is it:

A. He who is righteous, practices righteousness.
B. He who practices righteousness is righteous.

The question then becomes: Does Jesus make us righteous
Or are we righteous of our own efforts?

Both and neither.
If we were truly 'righteous', then we would only commit sins by accident or ignorance ... I can't speak for you, but that is not the only source of sin in my life. Yet if there was no 'righteousness' in me (clearly credited by faith and derived from the 'righteousness account' of Jesus, I would still be utterly reprobate and incapable of pleasing God ... yet I get it right once in a while. So I must be both ... and neither.

Interestingly, Jesus told me that it starts on the inside and bubbles to the outside (not the other way around):

Luke 6:45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

James 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
(Describes an ongoing cooperative work of continually being made righteous? God has it in abundance, we are in desperate and constant need of it. )

 

[th1b.taylor]

Interesting Chopper - thanks for your explanation.

I am willing to bet there are more than you realize out there which believe the same as you. I remember a while back listening to a pastor talk about this in some way, and he really struggled with the idea.

Where do you draw this distinction between two types of believers? I would think that of this sort would be clearly defined somewhere in the NT, and not something we would have to conclude as having to be. If that makes sense.

*In order to have two different types of 'calling', there would absolutely have to be two different types of 'faith'. We know all believers are saved through faith - nothing else. But that faith is given by God, and its given to the believer so they can receive the things of God - all the things of God, which part of would be the understanding of why they were called and how they are kept in Christ.

**If God "elects" some - never to be able to fall away; then "calls" others that have the possibility of falling away; Then there would have to be two separate faiths - two different 'paths' of understanding why God calls them and how He keeps them.

You know this is not true. There is only one faith.

*Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

**Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written,“The righteous shall live by faith.”

OH, OH, OH! Chopper will answer this but this is one of my favorite points in the New Testament. Matthew 22:1-14 is one of the addresses and another is in Luke 14:15-24. At the wedding there is the Bride of the Christ and there is never a Wedding Celebration without the Guests and in this parable of what Heaven is like, they are there. And we know from the teachings of our LORD that none that have not righteousness will enter Heaven and when folks end up there, they will not leave.

Chopper's answer will, likely, make more sense but I couldn't wait.

 

[atpollard]

OH, OH, OH! Chopper will answer this but this is one of my favorite points in the New Testament. Matthew 22:1-14 is one of the addresses and another is in Luke 14:15-24. At the wedding there is the Bride of the Christ and there is never a Wedding Celebration without the Guests and in this parable of what Heaven is like, they are there. And we know from the teachings of our LORD that none that have not righteousness will enter Heaven and when folks end up there, they will not leave.

Chopper's answer will, likely, make more sense but I couldn't wait.

Right or wrong on the details, that is a VERY cool point to think about. Thank you for that.

who will be the guests at the marriage feast of the lamb ... hmmm.

 

[JLB]

The question then becomes: Does Jesus make us righteous

Yes, His Life joined to us when we repent, is our righteousness.

At that moment we have been washed and cleansed of our sins, and translated into the kingdom of God, in which the kingdom of God is within us.

Now comes the process of transformation... the process of becoming.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

We are to walk according to righteous life within us, and not the sin that dwells in our flesh.

The righteousness according to faith, means we walk in obedience to God: to the Spirit within.

That's why it's called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


Your Question: Does Jesus make us righteous Or are we righteous of our own efforts?

Our own effort - No

By our obedience coupled with His grace - Yes.

Nobody can honestly say that if we live in [have a lifestyle: practice] disobedience to God, that we are somehow "right" with Him: righteous.

If we stumble, we get back up, repent and keep walking out this life of faith: the righteousness according to faith.

For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Proverbs 24:16


I hope we can discuss the different aspects of righteousness and come to a like minded conclusion.




JLB

 

[Nathan]

The question then becomes: Does Jesus make us righteous
Or are we righteous of our own efforts?

Jesus' righteousness is imputed on us. Period. There is no works of man that will ever be coupled together with God's that will "produce" righteousness. God alone is righteous - therefore there can be no righteousness outside of Him. He cannot "give away" His righteousness. He is Holy(set apart).

The faith we receive produces fruit, that fruit is what God see's in us - and imputes the righteousness of Christ on us.

We are "made" righteous before God's eyes, but we are not "made" righteous in the way that God is righteous. It has to be imputed onto us, given to us, there is nothing we can do to earn it or keep it - it is constantly poured out in us by the Holy Spirit, through faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

Both and neither.
If we were truly 'righteous', then we would only commit sins by accident or ignorance ... I can't speak for you, but that is not the only source of sin in my life. Yet if there was no 'righteousness' in me (clearly credited by faith and derived from the 'righteousness account' of Jesus, I would still be utterly reprobate and incapable of pleasing God ... yet I get it right once in a while. So I must be both ... and neither.

Interestingly, Jesus told me that it starts on the inside and bubbles to the outside (not the other way around):

Luke 6:45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

James 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
(Describes an ongoing cooperative work of continually being made righteous? God has it in abundance, we are in desperate and constant need of it. )

Atpollard, What does that wave mean???
To me it means Good Bye. You know, like you don't want to talk to me anymore. Most here use it like that.

But since you ask a question, I'll take it as a "Hi"...

So you believe that being righteous means we must never sin?
Is this a possibility?

You yourself say that righteousness is imputed to us through Jesus. We must, however, do our best to actually BE righteous. Isn't this what sanctification is all about?

So the answer is YES, it is an ongoing cooperative work of being made righteous. We are not made righteous ONCE, we are to continue in this righteousness all our lives if we are to be "right with God".

Romans 12:1-2
Right. We are to present ourselves a living sacrifice. What does this mean? Our entire life is to be offered to God. We are to be consecrated and holy - set apart for service to God.

Romans 6:12-18
We are not to be slaves to sin. We are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice as in Romans 12:1-2, not present it as in sin as unrighteousness. We are now alive and no longer dead, because we are no longer slaves to sin. We are slaves to the one we serve.

We are to perform righteously.
Mathew 5:20

We are to flee from sinful things and PURSUE righteousness. Pursuing is an action we take.
1 Timothy 6:11

We are to put on the new self which has been created in righteousness.
Ephesians 4:24
Verses 25-32 goes on to tell us HOW we are to be righteous.

God gives us the strength through the Holy Spirit, through His love to do what is necessary to take the righteousness He has provided for us by Jesus, so that we may continue in it.

 

[GodsGrace]

When understanding the call of mankind by God we have to understand that God has confined us, made us, to seek a 'higher' being than ourselves.

Here is where black and white once again are plainly seen. We either choose to obey God or satan. We have no other choice. We cannot 'abstain' from the choice. Some may think that they will 'choose themselves' but that is a choice to obey satan. Anything not of God is of the devil. There is no in-between.

That is why there can only be the "elected" and those not "elected". There cannot be some that are "partially elected". There cannot be different types of "elected". There cannot be a grey area in regards to election.

Same for predestination. The whole world, from beginning to end, is predestined. Some to eternal life, some to eternal punishment. We view different types of predestination, but the outcome is only between two things - heaven and hell.

This is the main reason why I wanted to study this. When I plant seeds, as a servant of God, I want to plant the good seed and not one that is corrupt with man's opinion. True predestination and election is apart of the Word of God. You cannot plant the seed of the Word of God without predestination and election being apart of it.

Therefore, I am seeking the truth of it. I know that I do not hold all the truths of the Word of God independently, so that's why I seek my fellow servants thoughts. Upon hearing the thoughts, I line them up with the truth of God, written in the Word of God, and when held up to the Light of God, the truths and lies are made manifest.

That's the purpose of Bible study. To hold up what is said to the Word of God and let His light shine on it. If there is any darkness or any spot in a theology and doctrine then it cannot be regarded as truth.

We must have gone to the same "bible school" !

 

[GodsGrace]

My mistake! I saw this in the "Bible Study" forum. However, since you've determined that your mind is set I won't continue.

You mean you're only here to change people's mind??
Not to discuss?

 

[GodsGrace]

All you have to do is check the Greek text and you'll see that the word "kia" (and) is in the passage. However, I never said that Ephesians 1:3-12 was for Jews. I said it was speaking of Jews. There's a big difference. It seems that people don't really pay attention to what is being said. I'm not surprise that you guys are rejecting what I said, I doesn't seem to me that you're reading it. I showed from several different passages that Paul is making a distinction between two different groups. Yet neither of you have engaged my post to show how it is wrong. Proper exegesis requires that we follow the rules of language and grammar. We don't get to make it up.

For those who may be reading along. For a more in depth and verse by verse breakdown of Ephesians 1:3-12 here is a link to paper on the subject.

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf

Wouldn't Ephesians 1:12 be very important to this conversation?
verse 12: "to the end that we who were THE FIRST to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory".
NASB

verse 13: "in Him, you ALSO, after listening to the message of truth..."
NASB

It seems to me that Paul is speaking about two groups but both are In Christ and are the faithful.
Group 1: Those who believed FIRST, the Apostles - and Paul - that brought the gospel and were chosen by God to do this.

Group 2: Everyone else that believes in Jesus for salvation.

verse 15: "...and your love for all the saints".
NASB
Perhaps Paul means the deliverers of the gospel by "the saints" ?

I don't quite understand why this is so important???

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 1:1-12 [NIV]
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus,a d the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—6 to the praise of his glorious grace,p which he has freely given us in the One he loves.q 7 In him we have redemption through his blood,s the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the richest of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mysteryu of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.a 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,c the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal,d the promised Holy Spirit,e 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


To read this as being written to one group "the Faithful Saints" of which Paul includes himself, and to read in again as addressed to two distinct groups "us/our" and "you" creates two such radically different messages, that they are NOT the same Gospel!

To imply, as you have, that the promises of EPH 1:3-12 are for Jews in order to fulfill an OT promise to the nation of Israel and should not be applied to Gentiles as a promise for all believers is not a trivial point to make. Your claim amounts to one that Jewish Christians are
"blessed in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians were "chose in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians were "predestined for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians have "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists).

Gentile Christians were "marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" ... Jewish Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists).

This is not the tone of the message of the rest of scripture and is very different than the meaning derived from Paul addressing one group in which Greek and Jew become a trivial detail and the promises are for the True (spiritual) Israel, not those who are Jews in flesh only. This may not be your intent, but this is how your words ARE being heard and why they are encountering so much resistance.

*****



Respectfully, we are reading it. Perhaps too closely, but we are reading it ...






I may have misunderstood, but I read you claiming Ephesians 1 is ...
1. about historic Israel (not spiritual Israel)
2. about promises to David
3. not about Gentiles being included in the the promises (you were refuting Nathan making that very point).
4. not about "chosen to be saved".

In my opinion, while Ephesians 1 is about the fulfillment of the promises to Eve and Abraham and David, it appears to me to be ALL ABOUT the Spiritual Israel, the children of Abraham by faith, those with circumcised hearts. It is about the natural branches that were not cut off and the wild branches grafted on all of which derive value and life from connection to the True Vine. The WE/US of Ephesians includes Paul (who was not a gentile but is part of the Faithful Saints, and the YOU of Ephesus excludes Paul (because the statement does not apply to him). There is no division of the body in the lesson or promise, just acknowledgement of the reality ... Paul was not a gentile from Ephesus.

I don't believe Butch5 is making the distinction between Jew and Gentile.
I don't believe, by reading the verses, that Paul meant this at all.

As far as BELIEVERS, Paul clearly has said that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile,,,
Galatians 3:27-29
Colossians 3:10-11

He does make a point of this, having repeated it in the books we have, and who knows how many other times that are not mentioned since he spoke to the gentiles and wanted to make an effort to make them feel welcomed to the Christian community.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello dear one of God. To answer your question, Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, & Mary, God preselected these (new word) for a particular mission....Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen (Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, & Mary) us in him before the foundation of the world, that (Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, & Mary) we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated ( Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, & Mary) us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Now, you say, "has always been a problem for me because it always seemed to me that they could NOT say No. It does seem to me that it takes away their free will, which I very much believe in."Please look at it this way. It is true that they didn't have a choice in being selected for God's Perfect mission for their lives. I know, that if you could ask them, they would say, "Are you kidding? I'm glad that I had no choice, If I had, I might have refused this most wonderful gift and treasured life of service to my wonderful Lord."

I'm so glad that you believe in free will because that applies to those who come to Christ thru the General Call of the Gospel. They have a choice to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's call to be saved.

Thank you for your question.
Love You,
Chopper

Hi Chopper,

I understand about your thoughts on "preselected" (new word!)
This would be a predestination according to something God wanted to do which was very special and so He chose who would carry out His will. This does not mean those persons were perfect --- David comes to mind, Jonah. Even Moses didn't feel he was qualified.

(God does not call the qualified ---
God qualifies the called)

But as to salvation, could you clarify this please:

If salvation were predestined, why would Paul be so concerned about the salvation of his countrymen after the flesh?

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
Romans 9:1-3

Paul was very sorrowful and felt pain within himself for the Israelites. He would have been willing to be cursed by the Messiah if they could be blessed by Him (saved?). So how could they be predestined if Paul could say this?

Comment?
Thanks.