Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

Chopper,

If someone wants to chop your head off for thinking Christ created everything, then I'll be right there with you because I believe it also.

This is precisely why I do not think that He would 'choose' some to be elected(without choice) and some to just be 'general'(with choice).

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan. Since I'm the author of the "General Call of the Gospel" you'll not find that theology anywhere but here at CF.net. For some solid information, check out my post to my friend JLB on post # 779. Thank you for "Chopperism" it's gotta be called something, right?

I hoped you would find the humor in it.

 

[JLB]

You know JLB? I don't hear anyone posting about this fact of creation by Jesus Christ. Are they scared to stick their necks out because their not sure? Well I'm not!!

I teach this truth constantly, because it's the truth.


Jesus Christ is the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:...10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10


We know from Hebrews 1, that the Son is the One who stretched out the Heavens and lays the foundation of the earth.


8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10


We also know from Peter that the Spirit of Jesus Christ, was "in" the prophets, speaking through them and predicting His suffering.


10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


So it's no surprise to us, when we read Zechariah speaking by the Spirit, saying these things.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:...10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10

Thus says the Lord [YHWH], who stretches out...


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Chopper,

If someone wants to chop your head off for thinking Christ created everything, then I'll be right there with you because I believe it also.

This is precisely why I do not think that He would 'choose' some to be elected(without choice) and some to just be 'general'(with choice).

I believe that I'll start a thread on this topic to remind our friends of how powerful Jesus really is. There are folk who have never heard about Jesus creating all matter. Perhaps you and I can partner in the thread?

 

[Nathan]

I believe that I'll start a thread on this topic to remind our friends of how powerful Jesus really is. There are folk who have never heard about Jesus creating all matter. Perhaps you and I can partner in the thread?

I'll join in for sure.

I thought it was 'known' that Christ created everything. Interesting that some believers might not understand that.

 

[atpollard]

That's where Calvin and I disagree. No one is chosen by God to be lost and spend eternity in the LOF.

Not debating here, but did Calvin ever say this or do people just say that Calvin said this?
The Heidelberg Catechism certainly teaches nothing like this, nor does the WCF.

 

[Chopper]

I teach this truth constantly, because it's the truth.


Jesus Christ is the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:...10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10


We know from Hebrews 1, that the Son is the One who stretched out the Heavens and lays the foundation of the earth.


8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10


We also know from Peter that the Spirit of Jesus Christ, was "in" the prophets, speaking through them and predicting His suffering.


10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


So it's no surprise to us, when we read Zechariah speaking by the Spirit, saying these things.


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:...10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10

Thus says the Lord [YHWH], who stretches out...


JLB

Your knowledge on this subject is impressive. I'd like to start a new thread on the activities of Jesus thru out the Old Testament (OC) I've already alerted Nathan of my desire, and if he would join in partnership for the thread. Now, I'm asking you JLB to partner with Nathan and myself to establish this exciting and knowledgeable thread.

So, the thread will be presented by JLB, Nathan, and me. How does that sound, and are you willing to join us?

 

[JLB]

Your knowledge on this subject is impressive. I'd like to start a new thread on the activities of Jesus thru out the Old Testament (OC) I've already alerted Nathan of my desire, and if he would join in partnership for the thread. Now, I'm asking you JLB to partner with Nathan and myself to establish this exciting and knowledgeable thread.

So, the thread will be presented by JLB, Nathan, and me. How does that sound, and are you willing to join us?

Sounds Great.

Count me in.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes there are other passages of Scripture that make a distinction to these two groups. And Ephesians is for the Elect, at least in verses 4 & 5.

Thank you JLB, lets make it clear. Whether a person is of the Elect, or the General Call, both groups must, at some point in their life, when they understand what Jesus has done to forgive their sins, and what they must do as a result, believe by faith in Christ's finished work of redemption on the cross, believe on Him for their Salvation. No one is exempt.

HI Chopper,
I understand what you're saying.

What I don't understand is this:

You say that a person in either group has to come, at some point in ttheir life, believe by faith in Christ's finished work. If I understand properly, you're speaking about coming to faith as to salvation.

I'm OK with the general call. In fact, I believe in the general call for ALL persons as to salvation.

But as to the ELECT (as to salvation) WHY would any one of them have to come to faith in the saving work of Christ on their own, eventually at some point in their life??

Doesn't God, when He elects them to be saved, make sure they get this saving faith??

(this is one of the reasons I cannot adhere to Calvinism: God does everything - we do nothing. I don't see this in the bible)

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Nathan. Since I'm the author of the "General Call of the Gospel" you'll not find that theology anywhere but here at CF.net. For some solid information, check out my post to my friend JLB on post # 779. Thank you for "Chopperism" it's gotta be called something, right?

I respect you Chopper, for attempting to reconcile the bible's speaking of the "elect" and the very apparent concept taught that God wishes to save EVERYONE. I really don't see how any Christian could get around this fact.

My own personal belief is that when the bible is speaking of the elect, it's speaking of someone that has a very specific purpose for which God has prepared them.

I do not believe that God elects, or chooses, anyone unto salvation because it would mean that the ones He hasn't chosen are destined, by God's will, to hell and the bible shows me that God would want that no one perishes.

 

[atpollard]

Romans 9:22-24
[NIV] What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

[NKJV] What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Nathan]

Romans 9:22-24
[NIV] What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

[NKJV] What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Define "mercy".

 

[Chopper]

HI Chopper,
I understand what you're saying.

What I don't understand is this:

You say that a person in either group has to come, at some point in ttheir life, believe by faith in Christ's finished work. If I understand properly, you're speaking about coming to faith as to salvation.

I'm OK with the general call. In fact, I believe in the general call for ALL persons as to salvation.

But as to the ELECT (as to salvation) WHY would any one of them have to come to faith in the saving work of Christ on their own, eventually at some point in their life??

Doesn't God, when He elects them to be saved, make sure they get this saving faith??

(this is one of the reasons I cannot adhere to Calvinism: God does everything - we do nothing. I don't see this in the bible)

The way that I think you'll understand the two classes of Believers is first the Elect....Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."....This is a classic call to be of the Elect of God. God, before Jeremiah was even born, chose him to be a Prophet, why? because somehow in the realm of God (Elohim) before time began for us, He personally knew Jeremiah and all those of whom He would elect to be His workers (Remnant) at different time periods in the future, and geographical locations.

Now, God does not automatically save the Elect. They do not bypass the process of becoming saved. There is nothing in Scripture that suggests this. So, they must, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, come to believe by faith in Christ Jesus, just like all men & women.

You ask....

Doesn't God, when He elects them to be saved, make sure they get this saving faith??

....I would say yes.

You say....

I do not believe that God elects, or chooses, anyone unto salvation because it would mean that the ones He hasn't chosen are destined, by God's will, to hell and the bible shows me that God would want that no one perishes.

....Apparently, you're not getting the General Call. Even though the "General Call of the Gospel" is not clearly stated in the Bible, that doesn't mean that it's not implied in Scripture, like....

1Timothy 2:3 "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I just put a name on the folk who became saved who are not the Elect doing a special work for God that no one else was equipped to do. We see, in....1Corinthians 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
12:2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led."....I would like you to understand that like Jeremiah, the Elect already have their future work already determined. The General Call Believers have their own choices to make and the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit are available for them to chose as led by the Holy Spirit.

I hope this helps you to see my theology a little clearer. The term "General Call of the Gospel" came to me by way of revelation by the Holy Spirit. You see, early in 80s when I began to study John Calvin's theology on TULIP, I was not agreeable to this statement of his...."The subject of Eternal Election, by which God has predestined some to Salvation, and others to destruction."

O Dear Wondering, that statement offends me, It must have upset our Lord Jesus, and He determined that He would correct it in the future with His bond servant Chopper.

From that point on, I determined to seek a balanced theology between the Elect of God, and this group or class of folk who are not of the Elect. In no way did I ever believe that there was no Salvation for them. I just needed revelation from my Master Jesus. The "General Call" answers the theology of "Free Will", loss of Salvation, and the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians....2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction."

So, Since God determines that the Elect cannot loose their Salvation....John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word."

John 17:9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours."

John 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

All Scripture that I've posted is from the NASB, The "New American Standard Bible".

Since verse 9 says "I do not ask on behalf of the world", I see the Elect in v.6 and the General Call Believers here in verse 9 because of the word "world".

Well, I've gone on and on. I hope this answers a bit of your wondering heart.

Love You,
Chopper

 

[Nathan]

Chopper

Do you believe that God only predestines those who He is going to save/elect?

 

[Butch5]

No, I'm not saying English translations are wrong. I'm saying it was originally written in Greek before English and they have a certain way of writing. If you base understanding from the original way of writing, then you understand the original writers intentions. This can be clearly seen through the different ways the verse is translated. Not least of which, is translated in several different ways, in the English language, to show that Paul was referring to the ones in Ephesus as saints and faithful - one group.

The distinction Paul makes in Romans is wild versus natural. Not first versus 'afterthought'. See the difference? The Jews were naturally inclined to the faith of Abraham, the Gentiles were wild in their calling - meaning not naturally inclined to the faith.

However, Paul stated quite clearly that salvation is to the Jew first and then the Gentile. Notice what he writes here. The Gospel of Christ is to the Jew first.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom. 1:16 KJV)

Jesus said basically the same thing.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. (Jn. 4:21-22 KJV)

This is why Paul told the Gentiles in Rome that they were grafted into Israel.

John baptized physically with water what is known as the baptism of repentance.

Mark 1:4
John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

This is all the disciples in Ephesus had heard about. That is why the baptism of the Spirit was so monumental to them - and why the Greek emphatic statement Paul made in verse 13 is so particular.

If these were baptized by John they knew of the Holy Spirit. John's message was the one who comes after me will baptize with the Holy Spirit

Everyone who comes to Christ is apart of Israel and are chosen. None who believe are either true Israel or chosen by God.

Romans 9:6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

This passage isn't talking about Gentiles. It's about those who are descended from Israel (Jacob). However, one interprets it, it's about the descendants of Israel, not Gentiles.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper

Do you believe that God only predestines those who He is going to save/elect?

Hmm, I believe that God only predestines those of who He will build His Remnant of true Believers who will follow His Commands and labor for Him in representing Him before the lost in every dispensation of time.

Our all knowing God knew that He needed a witness to the heathen world about His love for mankind, and judgment on those who disregard His offer of Salvation.

God chooses men and women to witness His Nature before those of whom do not know Him in every generation of people, in every time span, in every geographical location, and in every family that they grow up in. Election by Almighty God is not a haphazard selection, His selection involves an extreme method of choice on God's part.

 

[Nathan]

Hmm, I believe that God only predestines those of who He will build His Remnant of true Believers who will follow His Commands and labor for Him in representing Him before the lost in every dispensation of time.

Our all knowing God knew that He needed a witness to the heathen world about His love for mankind, and judgment on those who disregard His offer of Salvation.

God chooses men and women to witness His Nature before those of whom do not know Him in every generation of people, in every time span, in every geographical location, and in every family that they grow up in. Election by Almighty God is not a haphazard selection, His selection involves an extreme method of choice on God's part.

So will Pharaoh be in Heaven? God did predestine him for a purpose.

Judas? He was said to be predestined.

 

[Nathan]

However, Paul stated quite clearly that salvation is to the Jew first and then the Gentile. Notice what he writes here. The Gospel of Christ is to the Jew first.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom. 1:16 KJV)

Jesus said basically the same thing.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. (Jn. 4:21-22 KJV)

This is why Paul told the Gentiles in Rome that they were grafted into Israel.



If these were baptized by John they knew of the Holy Spirit. John's message was the one who comes after me will baptize with the Holy Spirit



This passage isn't talking about Gentiles. It's about those who are descended from Israel (Jacob). However, one interprets it, it's about the descendants of Israel, not Gentiles.

I find it interesting when people say, what you did, about the passage in Romans.

Romans 9:6-7
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

Your saying that it is the decedents of Israel, yet Paul says not all who are descended from Israel, belong to Israel. So are you correct or is Paul?

Are you a plant guy? I am. I like to garden. I'm not good at it, but I like to do it anyways.

Do you suppose that the branch of a tree, grafted onto another tree, gets the same things that all the other branches get from that tree? Or does that tree decided to 'limit' what it gives to the grafted branch, and treat it differently?

 

[atpollard]

Define "mercy".

Romans 9:23 καὶ ἵνα γνωρίσῃ τὸν πλοῦτον τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ σκεύη ἐλέους ἃ προητοίμασεν εἰς δόξαν

[Strong's G1656] ἔλεος éleos, el'-eh-os; of uncertain affinity; compassion (human or divine, especially active):—(+ tender) mercy.

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1. mercy: kindness or good will towards the miserable and the afflicted, joined with a desire to help them
   
   1. of men towards men: to exercise the virtue of mercy, show one's self merciful
      
      
   2. of God towards men: in general providence; the mercy and clemency of God in providing and offering to men salvation by Christ
      
      
   3. the mercy of Christ, whereby at his return to judgment he will bless true Christians with eternal life

Thayer's Greek Lexicon: σκεύη ἐλέους vessels (fitted for the reception) of mercy, i.e. men whom God has made fit to obtain salvation through Christ.

 

[Chopper]

So will Pharaoh be in Heaven? God did predestine him for a purpose.

Judas? He was said to be predestined.

True, Pharaoh and Judas were predestined to serve a particular mission. For Pharaoh....Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

For Judas....Acts 1:16 "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry."

Acts 1:20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

So, it looks like that even Judas, because of prophesy, was predestined to betray Jesus, thus fulfilling past Scripture. To answer your question, neither of the two men will be in heaven IMO.