Preterism & Biblical Prophecy

[Lloyd]

*Mod Note: Six threads have been combined into one. Please keep all Preterism discussion in this thread instead of flooding the board with multiple threads. Thank you.*

Hi there,

Firstly, apologies if I have just labelled you with a title you are not. It's not my intention at all. Grace and peace to you, through our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I've been reading a number of threads over the past few weeks and some of the information has been great in regards to this, and it has made me re-read scripture and continually look to understand the truth. Some things seem very accurate, some things don't (IMHO).

I guess what I find hard to understand is, looking at the world as it is, how you believe so much prophecy has already been fullfilled. I'm certainly not some doom merchant or someone who looks for negative things in the world, but when I look at the state of the world, it seems to me that it's spiralling more out of control and becoming less God fearing by the minute. The greed of the world, the self-centredness, people who are obsessed with themselves (reality TV programmes as an example), crime rates, disobediant youth/children, drugs, blasphemors, materialism, same-sex marriages, church corruption - to name a few things. It seems the world is in need of judgement more than ever (Not that I would like anyone to suffer or wish anyone any trouble at all. In fact, I don't understand most of Revelation, and certainly want to stress the fact that I ask for no judgement, whether saved or not, but only that God may be glorified)

It seems atleast to me, that the world is moving further away from God, so if you believe that all/partial prophecy has been fulfilled, then why aren't we getting closer to God? Is it lack of education/understanding on scripture that is holding the world back? If prophecy is fullfilled and the world is, and will be, and will not be again reknewed, then how do we change the world to bring it closer to God? Or is it only in death we reign with Christ?

I would appreciate your discussion here and once again, enter the conversation with you with a humble heart and as someone striving for the truth.

Thanks,
Lloyd.

 

[Lehigh3]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Hi Lloyd!
Just wondering why you don't think there ISN'T much JUDGMENT in the world today?
God is judging every day between good & evil.
I think the "world" is in need of SALVATION. Those who are saved know who they are. "We'' are in this world, but we are not "of this world."

It's what God told Israel in Deuteronomy 30:15 and will always be, ""See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil." And "today" is always the day of & for salvation.
I'm not so sure fulfilled "prophecy" means the whole world would be saved.
God created both good & evil. No where do we read or understand that all are righteous in Christ. Even outside the gates of the New Jerusalem kingdom- there still are the unsaved - even now, who cannot enter without "washed robes"

God created evil. Isa.45:7; Lam.3:38 etc. The clearest picture in Scripture of this fact is that God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before the failure of Adam and Eve. Therefore, evil was before God created man. Evil was known by the mind of God in its entirety from eternity. Gen.6:5 tells us that man’s mind is “on evil all the time.†The distinction between these men and Noah is that “Noah found grace†(Gen.6:8). This grace enabled Noah to obey God. Jeremiah concurs: “the heart of man is evil, who can know it?†Man is born with the knowledge of good and evil, and the Second Coming of Christ did not alter this fact in the slightest. In order for man to be transformed into the image of Christ, he must also have eternal life. Having the knowledge of good and evil in our minds is the agency for evil to be.

 

[taromina2003]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Hi there,

Firstly, apologies if I have just labelled you with a title you are not. It's not my intention at all. Grace and peace to you, through our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I've been reading a number of threads over the past few weeks and some of the information has been great in regards to this, and it has made me re-read scripture and continually look to understand the truth. Some things seem very accurate, some things don't (IMHO).

I guess what I find hard to understand is, looking at the world as it is, how you believe so much prophecy has already been fullfilled. I'm certainly not some doom merchant or someone who looks for negative things in the world, but when I look at the state of the world, it seems to me that it's spiralling more out of control and becoming less God fearing by the minute. The greed of the world, the self-centredness, people who are obsessed with themselves (reality TV programmes as an example), crime rates, disobediant youth/children, drugs, blasphemors, materialism, same-sex marriages, church corruption - to name a few things. It seems the world is in need of judgement more than ever (Not that I would like anyone to suffer or wish anyone any trouble at all. In fact, I don't understand most of Revelation, and certainly want to stress the fact that I ask for no judgement, whether saved or not, but only that God may be glorified)

It seems atleast to me, that the world is moving further away from God, so if you believe that all/partial prophecy has been fulfilled, then why aren't we getting closer to God? Is it lack of education/understanding on scripture that is holding the world back? If prophecy is fullfilled and the world is, and will be, and will not be again reknewed, then how do we change the world to bring it closer to God? Or is it only in death we reign with Christ?

I would appreciate your discussion here and once again, enter the conversation with you with a humble heart and as someone striving for the truth.

Thanks,
Lloyd.

Hello Lloyd, I totally relate to your post, I myself just last night on this board had come to a conclusion about the preterist theory, as you have done I also read the Bible did some research and asked people questions.

I have had moments of clarity where with the guidance of the Holy Spirit have seen just how insidious evil is and how for example it targets our youth through various media outlets, movies, etc,. it is like weeds choking to death whatever it gets hold of and it is out of control and like you I feel judgement is coming.

Not to start any arguments or insult anyone with the preterist belief but I notice they use the same few scriptures to make their point, if one loves and reads the Bible front to back there are so many stories that repeat hundreds of years later I don't have any examples at the moment, prophecy in the Bible is meant not just for the current but also for the future.

Lastly my conclusion is Preterist and rapture theorists have one thing in common and that is they don't think they are going to have to deal with the devil, as I posted last night the Preterist I guess think Nero was the worst of it and the rapture theorists think they are to good to have to deal with him LOL! Sorry but I guess I am just ready to be a part of the Heavenly Father's army when that day comes if I am here or up there.

Thanks Lloyd for letting me vent on your thread.:waving

 

[n2thelight]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Hello Lloyd, I totally relate to your post, I myself just last night on this board had come to a conclusion about the preterist theory, as you have done I also read the Bible did some research and asked people questions.

I have had moments of clarity where with the guidance of the Holy Spirit have seen just how insidious evil is and how for example it targets our youth through various media outlets, movies, etc,. it is like weeds choking to death whatever it gets hold of and it is out of control and like you I feel judgement is coming.

Not to start any arguments or insult anyone with the preterist belief but I notice they use the same few scriptures to make their point, if one loves and reads the Bible front to back there are so many stories that repeat hundreds of years later I don't have any examples at the moment, prophecy in the Bible is meant not just for the current but also for the future.

Lastly my conclusion is Preterist and rapture theorists have one thing in common and that is they don't think they are going to have to deal with the devil, as I posted last night the Preterist I guess think Nero was the worst of it and the rapture theorists think they are to good to have to deal with him LOL! Sorry but I guess I am just ready to be a part of the Heavenly Father's army when that day comes if I am here or up there.

Thanks Lloyd for letting me vent on your thread.:waving

Many prophecies in the Bible are dual. In such cases a prophet speaks under inspiration of God and a first fulfillment of the prophecy comes to pass. Then, later, often at the end of the age before the return of Christ, comes a final, ultimate fulfillment.

An excellent example of duality is found in a prediction Joel made about the Holy Spirit: "And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.

And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord ... I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there..." (Joel:2:28-3:2).

God inspired the apostle Peter to quote from this passage to describe events on the Day of Pentecost, when God founded the Church after Jesus' resurrection (Acts:2:14-21[14]But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:[15]For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

[16]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;[17]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

[18]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:[19]And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

[20]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

[21]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.). Miraculous manifestations of God's power through the Holy Spirit did indeed occur then (verses 1-13). But these were only the first fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. The ultimate fulfillment will come at the time of the end and will involve, among other things, the gathering of the nations to God's judgment in the Valley of Jehoshaphat. This did not occur on the Day of Pentecost. So we see that prophecies can be dual.

In a similar fashion, God inspired many other prophecies with dual meanings. They applied as warnings to the Israelites at that time and as warnings to the modern descendants of those same people. The people of Britain, the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand and the nations of northwest Europe who represent these people today would do well to heed these warnings.


This prophecy will be fullfilled again in the below verse,yet future

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

 

[taromina2003]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Thank you n2thelight,

those are perfect examples. From your post it is this particular scripture that I find personally most important:


Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

 

[n2thelight]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Part 1

Preterists say that we are now living in the "new earth" foretold in Scripture, because God is "with us" through His Holy Spirit. They also claim that the frequent references and implications in the Bible that Christ's coming was near or soon, and that the "last days" had already begun in the days of the apostles, do not allow or permit a 2000-year lapse of time before His return.

Preterism teaches that Jesus' statement, in Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30, that "this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place", necessitates that Jesus had to return within a few decades of 30 AD when He spoke these words. Likewise, preterists claim that Jesus' statement recorded in Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1, where Jesus declared that some who were standing with Jesus at that time would not "taste death" until they had seen the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom with power; preterists insist that this statement by Jesus also required Him to physically return to earth within a few decades, so that His return would have occurred before those disciples had all died.

I'm sure that avid proponents of preterism would attempt to add a few more things in defense of their doctrine, but the general theme of their preterist philosophy is basically as I've stated. And, their two "best scriptures" in defense of their doctrine are the ones that I mentioned above.

Before I respond to the preterist arguments, you need to know the origin of preterism. The first thoroughly documented doctrine of preterism was presented by a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest named Luis De Alcazar in the sixteenth century.

He wrote a 900-page commentary on the book of Revelation titled "Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse". This new doctrine was concocted and promoted during the heart of the Protestant Reformation when many Protestant reformers were proclaiming that the pope was the "antichrist-beast" of Revelation. Luis De Alcazar's book basically tried to refute this accusation of the Protestants, by maintaining that the papacy could not be the antichrist revealed in the book of Revelation, because everything in Revelation had already been fulfilled; moreover, with the Roman emperor Nero being the antichrist.

As you can see, the inception of preterism was not the result of a thorough study of Scripture in order to come to an honest and sincere conclusion of what the weight of biblical evidence revealed, but rather was the result of searching the Bible with an agenda to find a few texts that could be used to "create" a new doctrine that would protect the pope from the Protestants' charge that he was the antichrist.

Before discussing the massive number of scriptures that clearly and totally refute preterism, I want to address the "writing date" of the book of Revelation. As I mentioned, preterists claim that it was written before 70 AD. They have to make this claim in order for their doctrine to even be possible. The vast majority of reputable church historians down through the centuries, and especially those in the early centuries, have taught that Revelation was written somewhere between 90 and 100 AD. However, if this commonly accepted writing date is correct, then, preterism is immediately proved to be false, because the events foretold in the book of Revelation could not have happened before Revelation was even written, and remember that preterism claims that everything in Revelation had taken place by 70 AD. Therefore, preterists have to insist on an earlier writing date. The historical evidence, however, contradicts their claim of a writing date before 70 AD.

Nearly all early historians say that Revelation was written during the Roman emperor Domitian's reign, which was in the 80's and 90's AD. Irenaeus spoke of the "Apocalypse" (Revelation) as being near the end of the reign of Domitian (Contra Haeres, v. 20). Eusebius, when speaking of Domitian's persecution, said that John was banished to Patmos during this time (Ecc. Hist. Lib. 3, cap. 18), and, remember that John states that he received his revelations while he was on Patmos (Revelation 1:9). Hippolytus stated that John was "exiled to Patmos under Domitian", where he saw the Apocalypse (Works, p. 90).

Jerome said, in his "Book of Illustrious Men", that during the 14th year of Domitian's reign he raised the next persecution after Nero, and that John was banished to Patmos at this time, where he wrote the Revelation. Jerome also said that the prophet John saw the Revelation on Patmos where he was banished "by Domitian" (Works, vol. vi. p. 446).

Sulpicius Severus also stated that John was banished to Patmos by Domitian, where he had visions and "wrote the Revelation" (Works, vol. iv. Chap. 120). These are specific statements from a variety of respected, early church historians that all attest that these things happened under Domitian, not under Nero. Once again, Domitian reigned in the 80's and 90's AD.

It is highly unlikely that modern, preterist theologians would know what happened and when it happened in the first century, better than these historians who lived and wrote so much closer to the time of John. Would Jerome, Eusebius, Irenaeus, Severus and Hippolytus all be wrong, while some preterist preachers, who came along many centuries later, somehow had better knowledge of what happened nearly 2000 years ago? I'm sure that most honest and unbiased people would agree that the early church historians who lived much closer to the time of John, and who had no bias to favor a specific writing date in order to support a theological agenda, are much more likely to be accurate and credible than a group of preterist theologians 1900 years later who must date John's writing at a specific time in order for their preterist doctrine to survive.

It is also significant that, according to Smith's Bible Dictionary, there is no credible specific mention of a "pre-70-AD" writing date for Revelation during the first three centuries. In other words, once again, no one living close to the time of John suggests that Revelation was written that early. The earliest historians agree on the 90 to 100 AD date.

Now we'll examine the two "favorite texts" of preterists. First, I'll discuss the statement by Jesus recorded in Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30, that "this generation will not pass away till all these things take place". Nearly all theologians agree that Jesus' prophesies, of the events in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, can apply to the coming destruction of Jerusalem and/or His second coming at the end of the world.

In fact, the prophetic signs that Jesus gives are in response to His disciples' "two-fold" question in Matthew 24:3. They basically asked two questions: "When will these things be" (concerning the destruction of the temple mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24:1-2)? And, "What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world or age?" Jesus then responds by giving signs that pertain to these two events. Some signs refer primarily to Jerusalem's destruction, some apply primarily to His second coming at the end of this world or age, and some have a "dual" application to both events. When you keep this "dual nature" of the disciples' question, and Jesus' response, in mind, there is no need to insist that Jesus had to return during the disciples' lifetime in order to fulfill this prophecy.

 

[n2thelight]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Part 2

There are, in fact, two different generations being referred to in this passage. There is the generation that's alive when Jerusalem is destroyed, and that generation did indeed see all of the signs fulfilled that applied to the destruction of Jerusalem. And, there is the generation that will be alive when Jesus returns at the end of this world or age, and that generation will see all of the signs fulfilled that apply to Jesus' second coming. Preterists have tried to invent a problem within this passage that does not exist.

Regarding the other "favorite" preterist text found in Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1, where Jesus stated that some of those standing with Him at that time would not "taste death" until they had seen the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom with power; the verses that immediately follow Jesus' statement provide the fulfillment of that statement. Is it just a coincidence that, immediately after Jesus made this remark, the next thing discussed by both Matthew and Mark is when Jesus took Peter, James and John up on a mountain where He was "transfigured" before their eyes? Jesus took on a "glorified appearance" similar to the description John gave of Him when Jesus appeared to him in His glorified body on Patmos, where John wrote the book of Revelation (Revelation 1:16).

John said that Jesus' countenance was "like the sun" in His post-resurrection, glorified body; likewise, Matthew also states that Jesus' face "shone like the sun", and that His clothes became as "white as light" (Matthew 17:2). Similarly, Mark says that Jesus' clothes became "shining" and exceedingly white like snow (Mark 9:2-3). In other words, Jesus was transfigured into His glorified body; the same body that He appeared to John in sixty years later, and in which He will appear when He returns to earth at His second coming. These disciples did see Jesus as He will be seen when He returns.

It is also significant that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus at this same time (Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4). It is important to remember that Elijah was translated directly to heaven in a chariot of fire, and thus he never experienced death (2nd Kings 2:11). Moses, however, did experience death. According to Scripture, Moses died on Mount Nebo in the land of Moab, and was buried by God Himself (Deuteronomy 34:1-6). However, it is obvious that he was resurrected and taken to heaven at some point, because he is with Elijah when Jesus is transfigured. In fact, Moses' resurrection may very well be what is being discussed in Jude verse nine, where it mentions that the devil was arguing with Michael the archangel over the body of Moses. Apparently the devil was questioning Michael's right to take Moses to heaven. How does all of this relate to the transfiguration experience of Jesus in front of Peter, James and John? When Christ returns there will be "two types" of saved people; those who are translated directly to heaven without ever having experienced death, as Elijah was, and there'll be those who had experienced death and are resurrected, as Moses was. In other words, Moses and Elijah's presence at the transfiguration of Jesus was a sample or "mini-representation" of all the saved saints at Christ's second coming. Therefore, these disciples did get an "advance view" of Jesus' second coming, by seeing Him in His glorified body, and by seeing Moses and Elijah, who represented all the saved saints who will be present at Jesus' return. Once again, preterists have tried to invent a problem within a passage of Scripture where no problem exists.

Regarding preterists' argument that Christ's coming was to be "near" or "soon", and that the apostles were already living in the "last days"; to begin with, God is infinite and we're finite. We judge the passage of time based on an average 75-year lifespan. God judges the passage of time based on the unending, multiplied trillions of years of eternity. Peter expresses this time concept in 2nd Peter 3:8, where he states that a "thousand years" is like one day to the Lord. Therefore, I want to tell preterists to relax, because it's only been a "couple of divine days" since these things were written, according to God's timetable. However, I also want to tell preterists to be careful, because they are acting out the part of the "scoffers" that Peter speaks of in 2nd Peter 3:3-4. He stated that scoffers would arise in the last days, and that they would be saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For, since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were." Preterism is an obvious fulfillment of Peter's prophecy. I ask preterists, do you want to be one of the scoffers foretold in Scripture?

 

[n2thelight]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Part 3

In the process of answering preterists' "soon" contention, we've also obviously answered their "last days" argument. If a "day" of divine timing equals a thousand human years, then, the last days could very well have started 2000 human years ago, and it would only be a couple of "divine days" since they began. Once again, my preterist friends, you can relax.

Now it's time to deal with some of the scriptural contradictions of preterism. As previously stated, preterism teaches that Jerusalem was the "whore" or "harlot" of Revelation chapter 17. This is not only biblically false, but it is an absurd claim when you consider the detailed description of this "harlot" given in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 17:5-6 says that the harlot's name is "Babylon", and that she is drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. Revelation 17:15 says that she "sits on" peoples, multitudes, languages and nations. Revelation 17:18 states that she "reigns" over the kings of the earth. Revelation 18:2-13 says that this "harlot", Babylon, made the merchants and kings of all the nations "rich" from dealing with her, and these riches are specifically described as being physical riches of material wealth. This passage also states that, when this "harlot" is destroyed, the kings and merchants of the earth will weep and mourn. Furthermore, Revelation 18:21-23 says that, when this "harlot's" judgment comes and she is destroyed, nothing will ever happen in her again; no music, no craftsmen doing their crafts, no lights shining, and no voices of brides and bridegrooms being heard.

Any honest, unbiased and "unbrainwashed" reader of these descriptive details of this "harlot" would have to admit that Jerusalem, and its destruction in 70 AD, did not fulfill this description in the book of Revelation. While it is true that the Jews in the first century did martyr some Christians; perhaps hundreds or at most thousands; the famous Protestant reformers testify that Papal Rome martyred millions during the Middle Ages.

The papal church also does indeed "sit on" multitudes, nations and languages, as her one-billion global members span most languages and nations throughout the world. However, any credible person must admit that Jerusalem, or even the entire nation of Israel, does not now have, and never has had that kind of worldwide population, power or influence, and especially not in 70 AD when preterists claim that all of these things in Revelation were being fulfilled. And, remember that Revelation 17:18 states that this "harlot" also reigns over the kings of the earth; once again, depicting a global and powerful influence over nations throughout the world. However, in 70 AD, Jerusalem was not even fully reigning over itself, much less the nations of the world, for Israel was subject to the Roman Empire. In fact, at this point in history, it had been about 1000 years since Israel had reigned over anyone else. You have to go all the way back to the several decades of prominence enjoyed during the reigns of Solomon and David. And, the power that David and Solomon enjoyed 1000 years earlier does not apply to this passage in Revelation, because Scripture states that the "harlot" is being carried by the antichrist-beast in Revelation 17:7. Therefore, being that preterism claims that Nero is that antichrist-beast, and also being that preterists say that the time of this "harlot's" destruction is in 70 AD; consequently, we are talking about the "status" of Jerusalem in 70 AD, not its status a millennium earlier. And, as already mentioned, Jerusalem had no power and influence over anyone in 70 AD.

Furthermore, Revelation 18:2-13 said that this "harlot" was making all of the kings and merchants of the earth rich from dealing with her; moreover, it says that all of earth's merchants would mourn at her destruction. Was Jerusalem in 70 AD making all of the kings and merchants of the earth wealthy from dealing with her? And, were all of those worldwide kings and merchants mourning when Jerusalem was destroyed, because the source of their wealth had been destroyed? Any reasonable, rational and honest person knows the answer to these questions. It is a resounding NO! It was indeed a sad day for those dwelling in Jerusalem, but it had little or no economic impact upon the other nations of the world.

Finally, regarding Revelation 18:21-23, where it stated that, when this "harlot", Babylon, is judged and destroyed by God, nothing will ever happen in her again, including no music ever being played in her anymore, no craftsmen ever doing crafts in her anymore, no lights ever shining in her anymore, and no voices of brides and bridegrooms ever being heard in wedding ceremonies anymore; if the city of Jerusalem was this "harlot"/Babylon, as preterists contend, then why, after her judgment and destruction in 70 AD, are things happening in Jerusalem again, including music being played, craftsmen doing their crafts, lights shining, and the voices of brides and bridegrooms in wedding ceremonies being heard? Once again, the answer is obvious. The preterist claim, that Jerusalem is the "harlot" of the book of Revelation, is totally false and absurd.

Preterism also teaches that Nero was the antichrist/beast of Revelation. This, however, is biblically impossible. Revelation 16:18-21 reveals that, before antichrist's demise, there will be a great earthquake in which all of the mountains and islands disappear, and there will be hailstones weighing nearly 100 pounds each that will fall upon the wicked, but there are no historical records of such catastrophic events happening around 70 AD, or any time in history for that matter.

Revelation 13 states that, during the reign of the antichrist-beast, there will be a worldwide monitoring of the population via some kind of "mark" that people will need to have in order to buy and sell anything, and it says that a worldwide "death decree" will be instituted against those who don't have this "mark". However, these things did not happen during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero. And, in fact, it would have been impossible for these things to have happened in the days of Nero, because technology did not exist to enforce such a worldwide decree or to monitor the worldwide population.

2nd Thessalonians 2:9 states that the antichrist will perform signs and wonders, and the Greek words that are used here for "signs" and "wonders" are the same Greek words used to describe the miraculous signs and wonders done by the apostles, as recorded in the book of Acts; yet, there are no historical records of Nero having done miracles.

Revelation 16 speaks of incredible plagues being poured out upon the antichrist/beast's kingdom. It says that all of the unsaved people will receive painful, ugly boils; that the waters of the seas, springs and rivers will be turned into blood; that the sun will become so hot that it scorches men with fire; that this will be followed by the sun being completely darkened; and that the water in the Euphrates River will be dried up. However, there are no historical records of such cataclysmic events occurring during the reign of Nero.

Revelation 19:11-21 says that, when Christ comes with His armies of angels, the antichrist/beast will unite with all the kings of the earth and their armies to try to fight against Jesus. However, once again, there are no historical records of all of the world's armies uniting with Nero outside of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Based on the biblical and historical record, it is obvious that preterism's claim, that Nero was the antichrist, can only be accepted if you totally ignore both Scripture and history.

 

[n2thelight]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Part 4

As mentioned earlier, preterism also teaches that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD represented Christ's second coming to earth and the "end of time" and the "end of the age". This claim is even more absurd than the previous claims of preterism. The prophet Daniel said that in the "time of the end" knowledge would be increased and people would be "running to and fro" or "rushing here and there". This, of course, is a perfect description of our contemporary times with high-speed travel, high-speed communication, high-speed knowledge and general fast-paced "rat race living". However, this does not apply at all to 70 AD, when the only means of travel was still by walking or riding an animal, and the only means of communication was by speaking face to face or by having a written message hand-delivered.

And, regarding the preterist claim that Christ returned in 70 AD, the Bible states that, immediately prior to Jesus' return, there will be spectacular, supernatural signs occurring in the heavens, such as the sun being darkened, the moon becoming like "blood" and not giving its light, and the stars falling from heaven, thus causing the seas and waves on earth to roar (Revelation 6:12-13; Matthew 24:29-30; Luke 21:25-28). There are no historical records of such colossal and catastrophic events taking place around 70 AD.

Scripture also states that when Christ comes the sky will be rolled up like a scroll, every eye will see Him, all of the unsaved people on earth will mourn, the wicked will hide in caves and rocks to try to not look at Him, there will be a shout, a trumpet blast, all of the dead bodies of the saints down through the ages will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible, and all of the saved saints will ascend together in the air to meet Jesus (Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:30; 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1st Corinthians 15:50-54). Once again, there are no historical records of any of these phenomenal events happening around 70 AD.

Preterists also teach that this sinful world is not destroyed when Christ comes, but that the continual cycle of sin and rebellion goes on forever on earth. This, of course, is also unbiblical. In the parable of the "tares of the field", Jesus said that the final harvest, when He separates the wicked from the just, constitutes being the "end of the age" or the "end of the world". He also said that all things that offend are removed and punished at this time, not just the Jews in Jerusalem, but "all of the wicked" (Matthew 13:24-30; Matthew 13:36-42). This contradicts preterism's teaching that only the Jews were punished in 70 A.D., which they say represented the "end of the age". Moreover, preterism's claim that Christ's return did not cause the world to come to an end, is another contradiction of Scripture. 1st Corinthians 15:23-28 states that the "end" comes when Christ returns, and it also says that the last enemy to be destroyed at this time is "death"; furthermore, it states that all things will have become "subject to Jesus" at this time. Of course, this text creates great problems for preterists, who say that Christ came in 70 AD. Why? Because the world did not end in 70 AD; death did not stop in 70 AD; and "all things" certainly did not become subject to Christ in 70 AD, for Jesus has continued to be cursed and blasphemed on a daily basis by millions on this wicked planet. When Jesus truly returns as foretold by Scripture, He will do a much better job of subjecting all things to Himself than what preterists give Him credit for.

Finally, preterism teaches that we are currently living on the "new earth", which Scripture says that God will create after the return of Christ and the end of this world. However, as usual, preterists run into all kinds of problems with their claim as soon as you examine the texts that describe this "new earth". Revelation 21:1-4 says that there is no death, pain, sorrow or crying in the new earth, and that there is no more sea/ocean. However, the last time that I checked, we still had the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, as well as others, and we still are experiencing pain, sorrow, crying and death. Evidently, preterists must not get out much or read any newspapers.

Revelation 21:10-25 describes the "capital city" of the new earth, the New Jerusalem, and states that it is 1500 miles wide, 1500 miles long, and 1500 miles high; moreover, that its foundation stones are precious jewels, its doors are pearls, its walls are jasper, and its streets are gold. If there was such a city on this so-called "new earth", which preterists claim that we are now living on, I'm sure that someone would have spotted it. Also, Peter states that the coming new earth will be a place where righteousness dwells (2nd Peter 3:13). Is this earth that we're currently living on, filled with wars, murders, rapes, child abductions, abortions, adulteries, fornications, thefts, lies, blasphemies and abominations; is this earth a place where righteousness dwells? Such an assertion is ludicrous. In fact, all of the tenets of preterism are ludicrous and wildly unbiblical.

How do preterists respond to all of the specific and clear biblical facts and details that contradict their doctrine? They simply say that all of these things have a "spiritual" and "symbolic" meaning, and they don't actually mean what the literal language states in these scriptures. In other words, preterists have developed their own private type of "Bible Code" to justify their doctrine. That "Bible Code" is the theological paradigm or model called preterism, where things mean what preterists say that they mean, not what the specific language in the texts literally state. I, however, feel much safer sticking with the meaning that is conveyed by what is specifically stated within the exact wording of the divinely inspired scriptural texts themselves. God wrote the Bible so that common people can understand it without the assistance of theological paradigms or models created by mere human beings with religious agendas.

I must say that I'm amazed at the double standard employed by preterists in biblical interpretation. They can spiritualize, symbolize and "explain away" multitudes of specific, literal events foretold in Scripture, such as the sun being darkened, the stars falling, a great earthquake causing the mountains and islands to vanish, 100-pound hailstones, painful boils, a worldwide death decree, the seas and rivers being turned into blood, antichrist doing miracles, all the armies of the world joining antichrist to fight Jesus as He returns, every eye seeing Jesus at His coming, all of the unsaved people throughout the world mourning and trying to hide from Him as He returns, all of the dead saints being resurrected and ascending together with all of the saints who are alive when Jesus comes, the new earth's capital city having jasper walls and foundation stones made of jewels, the city also having streets of gold and pearl doors, and the new earth not having any pain, sorrow, crying or death etc.; preterists can spiritualize and symbolize all of these things away, with none of them meaning what they actually and literally say; yet, they insist that the words "soon" and "near" must literally mean exactly what preterists think they should mean, according to their own human perspective of time! Preterism's double standard is truly incredible.

One of the main themes of the New Testament is the hope and joy of the eagerly anticipated return of Jesus. Preterism removes this hope from 99% of all the people who have lived during the New Testament era, because there were probably only several million people alive on this entire planet in 70 AD. And, at least 99% of earth's total population since the creation of Adam and Eve, was born after 70 AD. I ask you, who would want to remove the importance, relevance, beauty, hope and joy of this central and prominent New Testament doctrine from 99% of all people who have lived in the New Testament era? There is only one logical answer, and that is the enemy himself, Satan. I must speak bluntly and boldly at the close of this article. Preterism is a deceptive and dangerous doctrine that blatantly distorts and manipulates Scripture. I pray that those who have been deceived by this doctrine will come to their senses and determine to read and understand the Scriptures the way they were written. Simply put, God says what He means, and He means what He says. And, preterism repeatedly and blatantly contradicts the clear and authoritative statements that God has made in the Bible.

Preterism: Is It Biblical? Free Reprint Article

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

It seems atleast to me, that the world is moving further away from God, so if you believe that all/partial prophecy has been fulfilled, then why aren't we getting closer to God? Is it lack of education/understanding on scripture that is holding the world back? If prophecy is fullfilled and the world is, and will be, and will not be again reknewed, then how do we change the world to bring it closer to God? Or is it only in death we reign with Christ?

I disagree that the world is moving further away from God, but I know it can seem that way given the way we perceive the world. So let me challenge this assertion. When do you believe the world was closest to God?

 

[Stormcrow]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

First of all, I'm not a preterist. I simply take Jesus's words at face value; words like these:

{29} Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; {30} as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. {31} "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. {32} "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. {33} "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. {34} "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; {35} for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. {36} "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:29-36 (NASB)

You don't have to be a preterist to understand what Christ was saying.

Second, you notice how certain other folks here - when presented with the clarity of Christ's words - always seem to want to hijack threads and change the subject? In this case, someone copying and pasting another whole blog in several parts to knock down the strawman of preterism. 2

Finally, let me address this:

I'm certainly not some doom merchant or someone who looks for negative things in the world, but when I look at the state of the world, it seems to me that it's spiralling more out of control and becoming less God fearing by the minute.

I heard a unique sermon once about the time Jesus walked on water. We all fault Peter for not keeping His eyes on Jesus, but imagine the kind of faith it took to get out of the boat in the first place! But what most people miss in that story is the faith Jesus put in Peter to allow him to get out of the boat at all!

The lesson that needs to be taken from Peter's example is not just how badly he failed in keeping His eyes on Christ through the storm, but that Christ - the author and finisher of our faith - believed in us enough to call us to His side in the first place. See? Christ knows that through the power of His Holy Spirit we can change the world, one heart at a time, if need be.

Where sin abounds, grace abounds more. That's the power of the gospel. It just needs to be preached.

For what it's worth.

 

[Stormcrow]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Simply put, God says what He means, and He means what He says. And, preterism repeatedly and blatantly contradicts the clear and authoritative statements that God has made in the Bible.

I can't speak for preterists, but from what I've read, this is patently absurd.2

 

[n2thelight]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Second, you notice how certain other folks here - when presented with the clarity of Christ's words - always seem to want to hijack threads and change the subject? In this case, someone copying and pasting another whole blog in several parts to knock down the strawman of preterism.

Okay,lets keep it simple,if Christ came already,why are people still dying?

 

[Sam21]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Okay,lets keep it simple,if Christ came already,why are people still dying?

Brother,you said it all in your posts,any Spirit indwelt believer will recognize the truth from God that you have presented,those who do not hear the voice of the Lord will not accept your posts or any amount of honest reason, so my advise is not to try to add to your previous posts or to present reason and truth because it is like casting a pearl before swine,they have no respect for truth so it us useless to attempt to use truth to convince them of anything. You said in all correctly brother and all of God"s people know it.

 

[Lehigh3]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

by n2thelight,

preterists insist that this statement by Jesus also required Him to physically return to earth within a few decades, so that His return would have occurred before those disciples had all died.

False statement. Preterists never say that "Jesus'" returned in the flesh. You need to get your facts straight. "As lightning is seen from east to west" is hardly what Jesus telling the apostles of a "physical return."

Before I respond to the preterist arguments, you need to know the origin of preterism. The first thoroughly documented doctrine of preterism was presented by a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest named Luis De Alcazar in the sixteenth century.

I will not waste my time responding to the "book" you posted. You weren't even asked to respond to the O.P. now were you?
It's too bad that you still need Jesus to return to destroy your enemies! it means your religion & theology is absolutely powerless now!

And don't add the "revived Rome" doctrine to eschatology. The road back to preterism is bc Jesus & the apostles were preterists. It did not begin with Alcazar. Only revisited. But the futurists fictional "rapture" nonsense did begin with a little Catholic girl who called herself a "prophetess" in the 19th century.
The so called church "fathers" were former pagans - defending the Trinity against the gnostics. They had little time to interpret the highly Jewish eschatology which is in Revelation. So the "imminence" of was is written about His return was left unchecked. They didn't understand the nature of Christ's return in the Scriptures, mostly bc they didn't base it on the O.T. "types & shadow" fulfillments of antitypes in the N.T.
The rest was their ecclesiastical agenda, twisting God's words of "imminence" to mean something vague & useless - but knowingly & shamefully- mostly to profit from the masses!

It took 1500 years for Protestantism? And how many denominations with different doctrines? The original church warned against such division.

Well, Preterism is the new Reformation. Learn the truth instead of waiting for the future to live in Spirit & Truth. And preach the good news instead of the false prophesies- which are added imaginations to the Scripture!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

I guess what I find hard to understand is, looking at the world as it is, how you believe so much prophecy has already been fullfilled.............

It seems atleast to me, that the world is moving further away from God, so if you believe that all/partial prophecy has been fulfilled, then why aren't we getting closer to God? Is it lack of education/understanding on scripture that is holding the world back? If prophecy is fullfilled and the world is, and will be, and will not be again reknewed, then how do we change the world to bring it closer to God? Or is it only in death we reign with Christ?

I would appreciate your discussion here and once again, enter the conversation with you with a humble heart and as someone striving for the truth.

Thanks,
Lloyd.

The first issue I wish to address is the assumption that this place wherein we live is the "new" earth under new skies (heaven). That full preterist stance is in error. It is obvious that this world is not a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" nor have all things been made new. To argue against this being true is to o so with blinders on ignoring the reality of this world.

As far as the relationship between what has been fulfilled and the state of evil that is rampant in the world, let me issue a news flash: THE TWO ARE NOT REALLY RELATED.
Jesus returning some 1900 plus years ago in Judgment of Jerusalem AND to gather his elect saints had NOTHING to do with future generations! That idea is the concept that both preterists and especially fururists struggle with. Most on both sides want things to be about them and their situation (especially futurists) when in actuality Jesus' parousia had everything to do with then covenant Israel and his holy ones and nothing to do with anyone else.

Preterists and dispensationalists both typically deny that there was an actual resurrection when Jesus came as he said he would in the 1st century. Preterists spiritualize it by saying it was not a physical one but instead a "spiritual" one that made it possible for saints to go to Heaven upon death rather than to Sheol. Dispensationalist deny altogether that Jesus' came back at all, according to them there was no resurrection whatsoever at that time.

As you look to scripture, consider that we are told that Jesus would return in Judgment AND to gather his elect fro the 4 winds. We are told of a "1st fruits harvest", Jesus spoke of a "little flock", we have numbers like 144,000 listed, and finally we have in Revelation 20:5 the actual phrase FIRST RESURRECTION. The scripture specifies that those party to this resurrection were saints, specifically martyred saints and NOT all believers of all times.
In addition, we have passaged like John 5:28-29 and Acts 24 that speak of a resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust. We have Jesus speaking of being the resurrection and the life and him saying that he will do some raising up on THE LAST DAY. It seems fairly clear to one who will drop preconceptions and biased and look at the scriptures for what they say that there was to be a real physical resurrection of Jesus' holy ones at Jesus' coming, that coming was expected in the generation of his contemporaries, and that there will also come a time when all the dead, both just and unjust will hear the voice of the lifegiver and be raised. Some to life, age lasting and others to judgment and damnation.

 

[taromina2003]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

by n2thelight,
False statement. Preterists never say that "Jesus'" returned in the flesh. You need to get your facts straight. "As lightning is seen from east to west" is hardly what Jesus telling the apostles of a "physical return."
I will not waste my time responding to the "book" you posted. You weren't even asked to respond to the O.P. now were you?
It's too bad that you still need Jesus to return to destroy your enemies! it means your religion & theology is absolutely powerless now!

And don't add the "revived Rome" doctrine to eschatology. The road back to preterism is bc Jesus & the apostles were preterists. It did not begin with Alcazar. Only revisited. But the futurists fictional "rapture" nonsense did begin with a little Catholic girl who called herself a "prophetess" in the 19th century.
The so called church "fathers" were former pagans - defending the Trinity against the gnostics. They had little time to interpret the highly Jewish eschatology which is in Revelation. So the "imminence" of was is written about His return was left unchecked. They didn't understand the nature of Christ's return in the Scriptures, mostly bc they didn't base it on the O.T. "types & shadow" fulfillments of antitypes in the N.T.
The rest was their ecclesiastical agenda, twisting God's words of "imminence" to mean something vague & useless - but knowingly & shamefully- mostly to profit from the masses!

It took 1500 years for Protestantism? And how many denominations with different doctrines? The original church warned against such division.

Well, Preterism is the new Reformation. Learn the truth instead of waiting for the future to live in Spirit & Truth. And preach the good news instead of the false prophesies- which are added imaginations to the Scripture!

Hello Lehigh3 May I suggest reading your rantings before you post, you really come across in an angry manner and there is no need for that kind of attitude don't you agree?:waving

I for one truly appreciate N2thelights posts and those of the preterist belief I have learned from them.

 

[Lehigh3]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

Hello Lehigh3 May I suggest reading your rantings before you post, you really come across in an angry manner and there is no need for that kind of attitude don't you agree?:waving

I for one truly appreciate N2thelights posts and those of the preterist belief I have learned from them.

I'm carrying a sugar packet or 2 to sprinkle on all my posts from now on!

Emotions can be good btw, I'm not allowed to call anyone IGNORANT you know- no matter even if it is so obvious just to break their necks trying to see Christ come & destroy their enemies instead of live in reality- so it is hard to keep my peace!

Here's the sugar :muchlove

 

[taromina2003]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

I'm carrying a sugar packet or 2 to sprinkle on all my posts from now on!

Emotions can be good btw, I'm not allowed to call anyone IGNORANT you know- no matter even if it is so obvious just to break their necks trying to see Christ come & destroy their enemies instead of live in reality- so it is hard to keep my peace!

Here's the sugar :muchlove

:biglol, Well I am very emotional myself Lehigh and I have to continually watch my p's and q's when I get to typing like a wild woman when making a point, my husband calls me the "mad typist" LOL! Thank you for your understanding.

 

[taromina2003]

Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et

I'm carrying a sugar packet or 2 to sprinkle on all my posts from now on!

Emotions can be good btw, I'm not allowed to call anyone IGNORANT you know- no matter even if it is so obvious just to break their necks trying to see Christ come & destroy their enemies instead of live in reality- so it is hard to keep my peace!

Here's the sugar :muchlove

Oh and I would like to add (because I am a smartazz) that I am surprised at your choice of beverage I would have taken you for a Kool-aide drinker, Just kidding