Question about Daniel 9

[MithrandirOlorin]

Hippolytus believed that the little horn (antichrist) was to be a government; but he also believed that this government would possibly be Jewish, or controlled by Jews. Irenaeus believed the same thing.

Hippolytus and Irenaeus believed he's be from the Tribe of Dan, Dan is not longer part of current Ashkenazim and Shepheratic Jewish Populations. European Royalty traces it's ancestry back to Dannus (Through Herakles) and Dardanus (Through Troy).

 

[jasoncran]

Hippolytus and Irenaeus believed he's be from the Tribe of Dan, Dan is not longer part of current Ashkenazim and Shepheratic Jewish Populations. European Royalty traces it's ancestry back to Dannus (Through Herakles) and Dardanus (Through Troy).

the kingdom of troi predates isreal's exile at least.

 

[Eugene]

Consider Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Let's give this horn a time frame. Daniel 7:9. "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit. Who will be given such power? This is that man of sin, or the antichrist as everyone but reba refers to him. (Sorry, I just could not contain myself.) I hope everyone realizes that this is not the same as the horn of Daniel Chapter Eight. That little horn speaks of yet another power to come.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

I don't believe in British Irsaelism/Lost Tribes crap, this is unique to Dan. Moses foretold Dan would "Leap form Bashan" and since Dan is missing form the Chronicles Genealogies, I believe this happened for the most part (Though some remnant might have remained) before the Kingdom period.

Judges is not entirely chronological, everything recorded after Judges 16 is actually now back to before the first oppression, but sitll after Joshua's death, explaining how all this started. Dan begins his migration there, and become very linked with the Sidonian (Phnoceans).

I date the Exodus to around 1605 B.C.,, Joshua's Death to about 1557 B.C. and the first oppression of Judges about a decade latter.

Dannus's founding of Argos is dated to about 1486-1470 B.C. And Dardanus founding what would become Troy to 1477 B.C. And the Danoi genealogy is linked to the foudners of Tyre in Greek Mythology, thus Sidonians.

Ezekiel 27 also linked Dan and Javan (Greece) via Tyre. Josephus and 1 Maccabees both record that the Spartan king could trace their ancestry to Abraham, the Spartan Royal Houses shared the Macedonian house's descent from Herakles, who descended form Perseus of the Danoi. Perseus also married Andromeda who came form Joppa/Jaffa, a city that was part of Dan's original settlment.

 

[reba]

:toofunny cute... But reba agrees wth scripture.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

Consider Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Let's give this horn a time frame. Daniel 7:9. "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit. Who will be given such power? This is that man of sin, or the antichrist as everyone but reba refers to him. (Sorry, I just could not contain myself.) I hope everyone realizes that this is not the same as the horn of Daniel Chapter Eight. That little horn speaks of yet another power to come.

Daniel 7:9 is referring to the "Son of Man" being given the Kingdom for the Millennial reign.

 

[jasoncran]

that is hard to take as dan was around before the exile. ie the first diaspora. that occured when? approx before 612 bc. dan was part of the northern kingdom.

 

[Eugene]

Daniel 7:9 is referring to the "Son of Man" being given the Kingdom for the Millennial reign.

This reference to the Ancient of Days is indeed none other than the Lord Jesus Christ when He sits on his own throne, and to me His rule begins on the Lord's Day at Revelation 4:2 when a throne is set and continues until 1 Corinthians 15:28. "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Daniel 7:10 makes that manifest. "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."

 

[Eugene]

Since Dan is missing form the Chronicles Genealogies, I believe this happened for the most part (Though some remnant might have remained) before the Kingdom period.

We don't see the tribe of Dan in those tribes of the 144,000 shown in Revelation 7:4-8 for instance and as my friend Gene Hawkins says the reason he is not there is more than likely the prophesy in Genesis 49:17, "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward."

Now exactly what that means we are not specifically told, but we can only speculate just a little bit. The prophesy says Dan shall be a serpent by the way, and it indicates that undoubtedly Dan has already, or he will lend himself to Satan and so thus he is not numbered among the one hundred and forty-four thousand. I have wondered if the false prophet could perhaps come out of the tribe of Dan, or in some other way does the tribe of Dan assist the antichrist? Whatever it is, he lent himself to the serpent at sometime before, or even perhaps even during this particular time then present and he is not included with the rest of the children of Israel.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

The Ancient of Days is God The Father I believe, the Son of Man is Yeshua.

Dan was one of the largest tribes in popular, no matter how little remained, I clearly demonstrated many migrated to Greece.

 

[JLB]

This reference to the Ancient of Days is indeed none other than the Lord Jesus Christ when He sits on his own throne, and to me His rule begins on the Lord's Day at Revelation 4:2 when a throne is set and continues until 1 Corinthians 15:28. "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Daniel 7:10 makes that manifest. "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."

Daniel 7:10 was a vision of a future event.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Daniel 7:10 was a vision of a future event.


JLB

Future to Daniel, but history to us.:2cents

 

[JLB]

Future to Daniel, but history to us.:2cents

Please show in scripture where this was fulfilled.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Please show in scripture where this was fulfilled.


JLB

It is not in scripture that Dan 7:10 was fulfilled, because all scripture was completed prior to the fall of Jerusalem to Vespasian's Romans in 70AD. However, that particular verse was fulfilled at Yom Kippur circa either 70AD or 73AD. The rest of Dan 7 deals with Christianity conquering the Roman Empire before it's fall, while then Christianity grows to dominate and eventually fill the world. We are still in that last phase.

 

[JLB]

It is not in scripture that Dan 7:10 was fulfilled, because all scripture was completed prior to the fall of Jerusalem to Vespasian's Romans in 70AD. However, that particular verse was fulfilled at Yom Kippur circa either 70AD or 73AD. The rest of Dan 7 deals with Christianity conquering the Roman Empire before it's fall, while then Christianity grows to dominate and eventually fill the world. We are still in that last phase.

because all scripture was completed prior to the fall of Jerusalem

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31

This refers to the resurrection as Paul writes -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.


And again -

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

We have not received our immortal bodies, therefore this scripture has not been fulfilled.


The scripture is the Truth!!!


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31

This refers to the resurrection as Paul writes -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.


And again -

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

We have not received our immortal bodies, therefore this scripture has not been fulfilled.


The scripture is the Truth!!!


JLB

When I say that 'scripture was completed prior to the fall of Jersalem' I'm talking about the written word, but not the necessarily the prophecies contained in it.

For example, Matt 24:30-31 is about the time right after the defeat of the Jews at the hands of the Romans. Think about how it would feel to Jews when they saw Christians taking their previous spot as the apple of God's eye, even while what had previously been a Jewish sect called Christianity coalesced into something distinctly separated from Judaism. With the destruction of the Temple, the works based theology of Temple Judaism was supplanted by Faith based Christianity, gathered together as the Church to continue Christ's work on earth to redeem creation. This change from works to faith, what is being described as turning corruptible to incorruptible, is actually about finalizing the change in the acceptable theology of God's People.

Setting aside the dead Law for the Living Spirit has already occurred, as Paul prophesied, at the corporate level. At the individual level, which is all that futurists seem to be concerned with, we are not aware of any overt change in our physical bodies when we accept Christ because that is not what is important. Our physical bodies will die, but what we do under the guidance of the Holy Spirit while still in our physical bodies is what is important and the evidence we are changed. In this sense we as Christians are immortal right now. Changed but not yet raised because we don't get a new individual glorified body while the old one is still alive.

 

[JLB]

When I say that 'scripture was completed prior to the fall of Jersalem' I'm talking about the written word, but not the necessarily the prophecies contained in it.

For example, Matt 24:30-31 is about the time right after the defeat of the Jews at the hands of the Romans. Think about how it would feel to Jews when they saw Christians taking their previous spot as the apple of God's eye, even while what had previously been a Jewish sect called Christianity coalesced into something distinctly separated from Judaism. With the destruction of the Temple, the works based theology of Temple Judaism was supplanted by Faith based Christianity, gathered together as the Church to continue Christ's work on earth to redeem creation. This change from works to faith, what is being described as turning corruptible to incorruptible, is actually about finalizing the change in the acceptable theology of God's People.

Setting aside the dead Law for the Living Spirit has already occurred, as Paul prophesied, at the corporate level. At the individual level, which is all that futurists seem to be concerned with, we are not aware of any overt change in our physical bodies when we accept Christ because that is not what is important. Our physical bodies will die, but what we do under the guidance of the Holy Spirit while still in our physical bodies is what is important and the evidence we are changed. In this sense we as Christians are immortal right now. Changed but not yet raised because we don't get a new individual glorified body while the old one is still alive.

The New Covenant began at the cross, not 70 AD.

The only thing that was fulfilled in 70 Ad was Daniel 9:26 b -

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

After 70 AD we see another temple in operation -

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Which Paul describes -


3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


The soon to be rebuilt temple that Paul spoke of -

http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

The New Covenant began at the cross, not 70 AD.

I never said it didn't. The question is when did the old covenant cease?

The only thing that was fulfilled in 70 Ad was Daniel 9:26 b -

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Well it was still being fulfilled in 70AD, but it had started decades earlier. You just can't see it because of your flawed understanding of the verse. Notice that Daniel doesn't use the word 'temple'. That is because Judaism doesn't depend on a physical temple. A point made obvious in this very chapter, when you consider that when this prophecy was given there was no temple, yet Daniel was still giving oblations to God.

After 70 AD we see another temple in operation -

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Again, Daniel doesn't use the word 'temple', much less the phrase 'another temple'. The verse is just another view of the previous verse, as a means of emphasis.

Which Paul describes -


3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


The soon to be rebuilt temple that Paul spoke of -

http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm


JLB

Again, Paul says nothing of a 'rebuilt' physical temple. Yet I understand your believed need for such a construct, because it seems the only people more carnal when it comes to a rebuilt physical temple than over zealous Jews, are Christian Futurists. Ironic!

 

[JLB]

I never said it didn't. The question is when did the old covenant cease?

At the cross, with these words IT IS FINISHED!

very simple.

JLB

 

[jasoncran]

no judiasm doesnt. they have the signets on their foreheads and right hand for that reason.