Niblo
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Yes.
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Question About Mary
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I don't have "my" own definition of a cult. Oxford dictionary: a system of religious beliefs and practices. The cult of Mary is a religion, complete with its own set of practices, centered around Mary - and thus, not around God, who demands exclusive worship.
Mungo
Member
cult
n noun
1 a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. Øa relatively small religious group regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
2 [often as modifier] a thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group: a cult film.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)
"a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure" Devotion to Mary is not a religion.
Let's look at cult a bit deeper.
The Online Etymology Dictionary gives us this:
cult (n.)
1610s, "worship," also "a particular form of worship," from French culte (17c.), from Latin cultus "care, labor; cultivation, culture; worship, reverence," originally "tended, cultivated," past participle of colere "to till" (see colony). Rare after 17c.; revived mid-19c. with reference to ancient or primitive rituals. Meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829.
Cult in its original meaning is about devotion, reverence or worship. This is the sense of the first definition of the word given by the Concise Oxford English Dictionary:
a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
Peter Kreeft (Catholic apologist) wrote a book “Fundamentals of the Faith” in which he talks about “Creed, Code and Cult” or “Words, Works and Worship” (he likes alliteration!) by which he means:
What we believe
How we act
How we worship
In this sense the term cult has respectable usage.
In recent times it has been used in secular terms to express something that is fashionable. The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives this definition of that sense:
[often as modifier] a thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group: a cult film.
However it has also come to used (in very recent times) by some people as a pejorative word to label some groups, particularly religious groups, that we disagree with.
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives this definition of that sense:
a relatively small religious group regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
However such a usage of the word is no better than the second definition given by the Online Etymology Dictionary:
Cult. An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree.
According to this article http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c09a02.html Sociologists originally applied the word to some religious groups in particular way.
They used the word ‘church’ or ‘denomination’ for large identifiable groups in mainstream religion.
They then used the word ‘sect’ for small groups that broke away from these large groupings but still keep many of the beliefs and practices of the larger group.
However this left groups that did not fit into either of these categories. Any group that wasn’t a church or a sect was labelled a cult. It was a ‘left-over’ category.
From the article linked to:
Social scientists have since set out to refine their definition of "cult" into something more descriptive and precise. Yet no matter what they came up with, they invariably saw cults as religious groups that stood over against the prevailing belief systems of the culture -- which, of course, were reflected and identified with the Judeo-Christian religious institutions.
Sects were recognized as offshoots that, for the most part, still held to the religious and cultural traditions from which they emerged. Cults, meanwhile, had a religious structure wholly alien to the prevalent religious communities. In a 1978 article written for the Annual Review of the Social Sciences of Religion, sociologist James T. Richardson explained that
"a cult is usually defined as a small informal group lacking a definite authority structure, somewhat spontaneous in its development (although often possessing a somewhat charismatic leader or group of leaders), transitory, somewhat mystical and individualistically oriented, and deriving its inspiration and ideology from outside the predominant religious culture."
This definition is still neutral. However (and this is my suggestion) because many of these groups appeared to have strange and destructive tendencies (think David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple), the word cult as applied to these small groups took on a negative association. The term cult, with its negative association then came to be applied by individuals and groups to other groups that they disagreed with. The word was detached from its sociological meaning and used to express negativity about another group. Cult in this type of usage could be defined as “An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree”
In other words it’s just used as a pejorative term to insult groups you disagree with.
Personally, I think that since this usage of the term has become degraded and abused, cult should not be used except in its centuries old meaning.
Note: The article referred to does not restrict itself to Christianity although the extracts I have given may give that impression.
Sounds like how Catholics treat Mary.
Mungo
Member
As Niblo wrote:
That is not a religion. Those are devotional practices.
You say God demands exclusive worship. But that is using your definition of worship.
See my post #20 about the meaning of worship.
No it is not my definition. Oxford definition: the practice of showing respect for God or a god, by saying prayers, singing with others, etc.; a ceremony for this. I don't know of any hymns that sing to Mary, but I'm sure there are some. However, it certainly involves the saying of prayers. Is Mary a god? Well, that's I guess the point of this thread.
Mungo
Member
It is your definition of worship because there are many definitions, but that is the particular one you have chosen to use.
Just as there are many definitions of cult, but you chose to use a particular one.
Worship.
According to the Online Etymology Dictionary the English word worship has a general meaning of being worthy, honour:
O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) "condition of being worthy, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200.
In that sense it can be applied to humans as well as God.
The Protestant Archbishop Thomas Cranmer wrote the Anglican book of common prayer. The marriage ceremony in use until quite recently included the line from the groom to the bride “with my body I thee worship”
In England we still use the term in that sense for addressing Mayors or one level of the judiciary.
His or Her Worship is an honorific prefix for mayors, Justices of the Peace and magistrates in present or former Commonwealth realms. In spoken address, these officials are addressed as Your Worship or referred to as His or Her Worship. (Wikipedia).
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that 'worship' in that sense is an 'umbrella' word that covers a range of actions.
As I pointed out earlier
Niblo
2024 Supporter
If Mary is a god, from whom did Yeshua derive his human nature?
re: "There is also here the issue of the meaning of worship.
The Catholic Church uses worship in the older, wider sense of giving honour.
So from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary definition of worship. Acknowledgment of another's worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God's infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)."
Just so it's understood that - with the possible exception of Elizabeth during the introduction of Mary in Luke - scripture is silent with regard to anyone doing any of that with regard to her.
The Catholic Church uses worship in the older, wider sense of giving honour.
So from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary definition of worship. Acknowledgment of another's worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God's infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)."
Just so it's understood that - with the possible exception of Elizabeth during the introduction of Mary in Luke - scripture is silent with regard to anyone doing any of that with regard to her.
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This is just a side note so if it's too far off topic, ignore me. In the US we address mayors or judges as Your Honor rather than Your Worship. I don't understand these two terms to be interchangeable. I understand honor as a term of high respect and worship as a term of reverence and adoration. Is this just a difference between English terms between our two countries or do you use the term worship intentionally as one would use it with regard to reverence or adoration of a deity?
Mungo
Member
As I suggested earlier, (post #27) the word worship originally mean giving honour. We give honour to God as well as to humans. Also see post #20.
But worship in the sense of adoration is only given to God.
The Church has three different Greek/Latin terms:
Latria - the adoration given to God.
Dulia - the veneration given to Saints in heaven.
Hyper-Dulia a higher form of veneration given to Mary.
Corn Pop
Member
Jesus himself didn't even exalt Mary as greater or more important than anyone else.
According to Jesus whoever does the will of his Father is his mother and brothers. They were trying to exalt her to Jesus, hey man your mother and brothers are here want to talk with you. He point to his disciples and humbled Mary and his brothers. He didn't lay out the red carpet for them.
Mary was chosen and is loved yet is still the same as everyone else.
Goes out his way to get baptised by John yet when his mother wants to speak to him its
not important. It can wait he's busy taking to his disciples.
According to Jesus whoever does the will of his Father is his mother and brothers. They were trying to exalt her to Jesus, hey man your mother and brothers are here want to talk with you. He point to his disciples and humbled Mary and his brothers. He didn't lay out the red carpet for them.
Mary was chosen and is loved yet is still the same as everyone else.
Goes out his way to get baptised by John yet when his mother wants to speak to him its
not important. It can wait he's busy taking to his disciples.
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Corn Pop
Member
Must be another Mary because the Mary who gave birth to Yeshua was just a human being born from human beings and is not exalted or a god. Just like there is alot of different Yeshuas that many claim to follow, not the biblical one in scripture.
"Hail Mary you highly favoured" just means "be glad Mary the Lord's grace is upon you".
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I could be forgetting but I also do not recall in Scripture where it is recorded when He ever referred to her as mother or mom. What I do recall is He referring to her as woman at the wedding feast.
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”
John 2:1-4 NKJV
The term woman at that time was probably similar to how we us ma'am today. It certainly isn't a term of endearment but rather puts some distance between Jesus and His mother.
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The term woman could also be a term of respect. For example, a child may refer to his/her father as "sir" and mother as "ma'am" when being disciplined or taught a lesson. But, in the context of John 2, this is not the case but rather much the opposite. Jesus is doing the teaching, not His mother. Essentially, He is talking to her with a respect as He might with an acquaintance or a stranger rather than His mother.
Mungo
Member
Protestant Bibles translate the Greek Chaire Ketcharitome as Hail, highly favored because they want to downplay Mary. But it more accurately means "Hail, full of grace". Indeed it means more even than that.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.
"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178))
Here is another breakdown of the two words
“chaire kecharitomene”
“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”
"charis" – Means “grace”
"charitoo" – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being "charis" or “grace,” "charitoo" means “to put into a state of "grace.”
"ke" – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of past action.
"mene" – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the "other" is God.
Therefore, "chaire kecharitomene" means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.” The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short!
Mungo
Member
St. John’s gospel is very deep and mystical. John is supposed to have written this near the end of his very old age and so had many years to reflect and meditate on what he had seen and heard. He does not give lists of miracles but seven of what he calls “signs”. It is to the first of these – the miracle at Cana that we must examine carefully; we need to look below the surface.
There is an interchange between Mary and Jesus
When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come." (Jn 2:3-4)
Protestant commentators see Jesus addressing Mary as “Woman” as a rebuke. But this is not. Jesus would never be so rude to his mother as to rebuke her, particularly in public. It would be breaking the 4th commandment. And Mary does not act as rebuked. He means something special by the term “Woman”. In fact one commentator says there is not one occasion in ancient literature of a son addressing his mother as “Woman”
It is how Eve is described in the Garden of Eden. She is always called “woman” until after the fall. In this Jesus is indicating that Mary is the new Eve.
You may think this is just co-incidence but the beginning of John’s gospel has several parallel with the beginning of Genesis.
Firstly it begins with the same phrase “In the beginning….” John seems to be deliberately drawing out attention back to the book of Genesis. Next in Genesis 1:3-5 God created light to shine in darkness. In John 1:4-5 we are told …and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness….
Then he counts off seven days, just as at the beginning of Genesis:
The next day (Jn 1:29)
The next day (Jn 1:35)
The next day (Jn 1:43) – so now we are on the fourth day
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana (Jn 2:1) so the wedding feast was on the seventh day. John then stops counting days.
The seventh day in Genesis is the perfect day, the Sabbath, the sign of the Covenant (See Ex31:16-17). Therefore this wedding feast is going to be very significant. And indeed it is. I won’t go into it all now. In the OT the wedding feast is the sign of God’s redemption his people. John is indicating that the new covenant, which will be enacted at the Last Supper, is being inaugurated.
The wedding feast is the first sign. Calvary is the seventh great sign, when Jesus is crucified and blood and water pour from his side. This is Jesus hour, the one that at Cana he said had not yet come. Again Mary is present and again Jesus addresses her as “Woman”.
When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (Jn 19:26-27)
This is not Jesus making domestic arrangements from the cross. Here Jesus is giving Mary as mother of all believers since “beloved disciple” represents all Jesus’ disciples (we are all beloved disciples). And we are to take Mary into our home - that is into our hearts.
Revelation
Let us move forward to the book of Revelation and chapter 12 when we again come across a Woman:
“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Rev 12:1)
This woman is Mary. We know this is Jesus because verse 5 tells us “she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” referencing psalm 2:9 (also see Rev 19:15).
Now this woman, Mary, is the mother of “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (verse 17).
So at the cross and in Revelation Mary is referred to as the mother of all believers, just as Eve was referred to as “the mother of all living” (Gen 3:20)
Mungo
Member
That is not what the text says.
You wrote: This is not Jesus making domestic arrangements from the cross. Here Jesus is giving Mary as mother of all believers since “beloved disciple” represents all Jesus’ disciples (we are all beloved disciples). And we are to take Mary into our home - that is into our hearts."
Mary is not "the mother of all believers". That is unScriptural fantasy. She was Jesus' mother only. And in Matthew 12:46-49 it says this...
"While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Someone told him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside wanting] to speak to you.” To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” And pointing] toward his disciples he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Clearly, Jesus declared that Mary was not "the mother of all believers" but only the woman who gave birth to Him.
And when Jesus asked John to take care of His mother, he did not mean "we are to take Mary into our home - that is into our hearts". That is a clear distortion of God's word. He was making sure that His closest disciple would care for His mother after He was killed.
Revelation 12 is John's vision, not a literal description. Was Mary "clothed with the sun, and with the moon under her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars" when she was pregnant? Funny how Luke forgot to mention that!
In verse 4 it says, "the dragon’s tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth." Not only is that not mentioned by Luke or anyone else, it would have ended all life on Earth!
And none of the gospels said that "she fled into the wilderness where a place had been prepared for her by God, so she could be taken care of for 1,260 days." Verse 6 Instead, she and Joseph and Jesus (who had not yet ascended to heaven) went to Egypt. Matthew 2:13-14, "After they [the three visitors] had gone, an angel of the Lord[c] appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother and flee to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to look for the child to kill him.” Then he got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and went to Egypt."
It is absurd to interpret John's vision, as expressed in Revelation 12, as a literal description of Jesus' birth and his earliest days, in order to claim that the woman is actually Mary. She wasn't "clothed with the sun", the stars weren't hurled to earth, and Mary didn't go alone into the wilderness.
Either you believe the Bible or Catholic mythology. Personally, I believe God's word over invented doctrine. Sola scriptura!
Mungo
Member
In Rev 12:
Is the dragon - Satan -real or not? I believe he is real.
Is the "male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron" - Jesus real or not? I believe he is real.
Is the woman who gave birth to the child real or not? I believe she is real.
Moreover she is the mother of the child, who is Jesus. Therefore she must be Mary.
Rev 12 says about this woman (Mary) that her offspring are "those those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus."
Yes, there is a lot of imagery. The woman can be seen to represent Israel and the Church. It's called fusion imagery and is common in the Bible. But the woman is real, gave birth to a real child.
There is no Catholic mythology but sound interpretation of the Bible.
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