Bible Study Question

[Jim Parker]

And I cannot call to memory the address but God said not to have pictures or statues of him in the Church.

I am convinced that belief is incorrect. The teaching about not having any pictures or statues in a church is the resurrection of the teaching called Iconoclasm which was declared heresy by the 7th Great Counsel held in Nicea in 787 AD. That teaching was resurrected as a means by which one might teach the reviling of the Roman church and as an imaginary justification for separating from and even waging open warfare against that branch of Christianity. ( Millions of deaths resulted from the wars of the Reformation)

• Conflicts immediately connected with the Reformation of the 1520s to 1540s: (From Wikipedia)
  • The German Peasants' War (1524–1525)
  • The battle of Kappel in Switzerland (1531)
  • The Schmalkaldic War (1546–1547) in the Holy Roman Empire
• The Eighty Years' War (1568–1648) in the Low Countries
• The French Wars of Religion (1562–1598)
• The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), affecting the Holy Roman Empire including Habsburg Austria and Bohemia, France, Denmark and Sweden
• The Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639–1651), affecting England, Scotland and Ireland
  • Scottish Reformation and Civil Wars
  • English Reformation and Civil War
  • Irish Confederate Wars and the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland

What God said is: (Exo 20:3-5a)
(1) You shall have no other gods before Me.
(2) You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

(1) refers to the false pagan gods of the gentiles
(2) refers to making an image of any creature (animal, vegetable, or mineral) and then worshiping it as if the image were a god.

Jesus is not an "other" God. so it is totally appropriate to make a picture or statue of Him and to bow down in worship of Him. (But not the image.)

No one is supposed to worship a picture or statue of Jesus. We are to worship Jesus of whom we are reminded by the picture or statue.

No one is to worship a picture or a statue of any saint. Their purpose is to remind us of the commitment to God exhibited by the pious acts of those saints and martyrs and to emulate them. This is exactly what Hebrews chapter 11 does. That is why "Veneration" of the saints is appropriate while worship is forbidden by God.

God commanded that there be images of Angels, Oxen and other created beings in His tabernacle. (ie: His church) (Ex 25-26)

If we can't have any pictures of God or the saints in the church then we better get rid of those pictures that the kids color in Sunday school.

iakov the fool

 

[th1b.taylor]

(1) You shall have no other gods before Me.
(2) You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

That is the address and I bow only to the Spirits that have always been and always will be. You are free to practice as you wish but that will never influence me.

 

[Jim Parker]

Mans creation was Solomon's Temple

Gods creation was the Garden

Actually, God's creation was the heavens and the earth and all things visible and invisible. Interestingly, we have only recently discovered the existence of invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" which apparently makes up80% of the universe!

Now, THAT is creation!


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

That is the address and I bow only to the Spirits that have always been and always will be.

me too.

 

[Obadiah]

Those original images and the similar looking images of christ we see today were pagan gods anyhow, they just changed the names to Jesus and Mary once the church was established.

I've never heard of this before and tend to disagree with it, so I guess you would have to prove this to me through a reliable and rational source. But even if it is true I don't really care. It's not what some combination of paint on a canvas (or whatever the media of choice) meant to some person in the distant past that matters. What matters is what it means to me and my relationship with the Lord.

And just to be clear I'm not trying to defend something despite what scripture says just because I happen to like it. (I have seen many here make this kind of accusation, so I'm sure someone will make it of me as well, even if not stated). While I don't see this irrational prohibition against any form of an image that represents Jesus as Biblical at all, I myself don't have any of those things. It's not that I avoid them, it's just that they aren't important enough to me to go out of my way to get them.

 

[Jim Parker]

I've never heard of this before and tend to disagree with it, so I guess you would have to prove this to me through a reliable and rational source.

The history of the iconoclast heresy is available on the internet. A book which does a decent job of presenting the historical, political, and cultural context of the theological disputes of the early church is The first Seven Ecumenical Councils by Leo Donald Davis, Liturgical Press. The 7th council dealt with the iconoclasm heresy.

You may also consider Vol. 1 of Leonid Ouspensky's Theology of the Icon, St. Vladimir Seminary Press. (2 vols.) In it, Ouspensky explains the basis for the use of icons.

But even if it is true I don't really care. It's not what some combination of paint on a canvas (or whatever the media of choice) meant to some person in the distant past that matters. What matters is what it means to me and my relationship with the Lord.

And just to be clear I'm not trying to defend something despite what scripture says just because I happen to like it. (I have seen many here make this kind of accusation, so I'm sure someone will make it of me as well, even if not stated). While I don't see this irrational prohibition against any form of an image that represents Jesus as Biblical at all, I myself don't have any of those things. It's not that I avoid them, it's just that they aren't important enough to me to go out of my way to get them.

In the Orthodox church, Icons are called "windows to heaven."

The interior of Orthodox churches are decorated with icons of saints to remind the worshipers that they are "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses."

Orthodox believers traditionally have an "icon corner" in their house where daily prayers are said.

I wear a crucifix. One day, at a store, a total stranger walked up to me and said, "You know, Jesus is not on that cross." To which I responded, "But I preach Christ and Him crucified." The fact of the matter is that the empty cross would be meaningless if Jesus had not been nailed to one. It would be an artifact of interest only to archaeologists and historians but of little interest to the rest of us.

iakov the fool

 

[th1b.taylor]

The history of the iconoclast heresy is available on the internet. A book which does a decent job of presenting the historical, political, and cultural context of the theological disputes of the early church is The first Seven Ecumenical Councils by Leo Donald Davis, Liturgical Press. The 7th council dealt with the iconoclasm heresy.

You may also consider Vol. 1 of Leonid Ouspensky's Theology of the Icon, St. Vladimir Seminary Press. (2 vols.) In it, Ouspensky explains the basis for the use of icons.



In the Orthodox church, Icons are called "windows to heaven."

The interior of Orthodox churches are decorated with icons of saints to remind the worshipers that they are "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses."

Orthodox believers traditionally have an "icon corner" in their house where daily prayers are said.

I wear a crucifix. One day, at a store, a total stranger walked up to me and said, "You know, Jesus is not on that cross." To which I responded, "But I preach Christ and Him crucified." The fact of the matter is that the empty cross would be meaningless if Jesus had not been nailed to one. It would be an artifact of interest only to archaeologists and historians but of little interest to the rest of us.

iakov the fool

All of this would have interested the living hell out of me before Jesus saved my soul... now, who cares? The Holy Spirit lives in my heart and I worship God where ever I amand when ever I am awake. It is not the God Follower's mission to condemn... not even people from the past that failed in their display of Ornate Stained Glass and Lead Windows and/or gold overlaid statues and ceilings. My mission... the Chrstian's is explained in the last three verses of the Gospel of Matthew.

 

[Jim Parker]

t is not the God Follower's mission to condemn... not even people from the past that failed in their display of Ornate Stained Glass and Lead Windows and/or gold overlaid statues and ceilings.

Why would you consider that a failure? They are the works of man done to glorify God as was done according to God's specific instructions in the building of the tabernacle. (Although stained glass had not yet been invented and was not appropriate for a mobile place of worship.) In that tabernacle there were gold overlaid statues of cherubim over the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant. The ark itself was overlaid with pure gold. The sockets into which the side supports of the tent were made of pure silver. The candle sticks were of pure gold. The veil was embroidered with images of angels. All of the work of the temple was done by skilled artisans using the best materials available. (See Exodus chapters 25 & 26)

The temple of Solomon was even more elaborately adorned. The entire insides were overlaid with pure gold. (See 1Kings 6 & 7:13-51) And when it was dedicated, the glory of God filled the temple so that the priests could not stand in the manifest presence of God. God showed His approval of that elaborately adorned temple by personally showing up for it's dedication and filling the temple with His presence. (1 Kings 8:10-11) That event would seem to put the stamp of God's approval on ornately decorated places of worship.

When did God say not to glorify Him with the works of our hands? When did He command that our places of worship be drab and unadorned? He never did.

Is there anything in the scripture that says the elaborate and ornate adornment of Solomon's temple was not a model to be emulated? No, there is not.

It is from the Puritans that we have received the misguided notion that a place of worship should be drab and boring. That is the clear departure from God's word, not the building of beautiful churches and cathedrals.

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

Just wondering if anyone can show me scripture where the biblical tithe suddenly went from the firstfruits of crops and flocks and fruits and vegetables, and suddenly turned into dolla bills?.

And, when the gentile church pastor, priest, whoever, become a levite?

There is no biblical doctrine of a Gentile church apart from the body of Christ. The Church was founded through the Jew first and then the Gentile. And of the two, God was making one new man after the image of Christ. (Eph. 2: 13-22) That itself is the Church, The one new man,
There was no law of tithing applied to the Church. Tithing is a law. The responsibility of the NT Church was to give out of a willing heart. (1 Cor. 16: 1-24). The preaching of the Gospel support changed at the calling out of the Church (Luke 22: 35-38)

 

[th1b.taylor]

They are the works of man

Right there is the reason.

 

[Jim Parker]

Just wondering if anyone can show me scripture where the biblical tithe suddenly went from the firstfruits of crops and flocks and fruits and vegetables, and suddenly turned into dolla bills?.

That would be at Deut 14:24 - 26 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

And, when the gentile church pastor, priest, whoever, become a levite?

No one can show you that. It never happened.

HOWEVER: Paul, in his instructions to timothy as to who should receive support from the church, did say, "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,' and, 'The laborer is worthy of his wages.' ” (1Ti 5:17-18 nkjv) So we are to pay our pastors, priests, and whoevers so they can devote their time to prayer, the word, and shepherding God's flock without worrying about feeding their families.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Right there is the reason.

I don't understand.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't understand.

I gave you a quote from your own post, what's not to understand, the works of man is the problem, that all it takes to make a mess of anything to do with God.

 

[Jim Parker]

I gave you a quote from your own post,
what's not to understand, the works of man is the problem,
that all it takes to make a mess of anything to do with God.

You gave me a couple of words from a much larger post.

The one sentence out of that post from which you picked a few words was: "They are the works of man done to glorify God as was done according to God's specific instructions in the building of the tabernacle." (emphasis added)

The tabernacle was the work of man done to the exact specifications given by God and God met with Moses there.
The Temple of Solomon was a work of man of which God demonstrated his approval by filling it with his glory.
In the judgment, those who did works of man by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. will inherit the kingdom.

God created men to do good works

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
.
Those works are not a problem; they're what we were created to do.

iakov the fool