Raptures – Tribulation

[Raelyn]

I think MR. StoveBolts needs a look at the DB, things is posting funny.

---------------------------

I have listened to lots of Chuck.

You can teach with no fear of getting it wrong. I teach, and I can tell you, that I hope I am not teaching with all the revelation about any subject that I will ever get. I hope there is lots more to learn, and hope I get corrected and have to change things. If we are not growing, then we are in trouble and nobody's doctrine is perfect.

Chuck gets pretty deep, and brings up things in a scientific way at times. We all need to lay the Word out as God has anointed us and given us. So we don't have to sound as deep as Chuck or as simple as Joel Osteen. We just have to give the Word like we give the word.

I can list a few common sense things though, that are real simple to defend a pre-trib rapture. All that means is Jesus is going to get his body out of the way, so God can deal with the rest of the unbelieving World and his Jews by which He made a promise to. It does not have to be complicated. The bible I am concerned about more than science.

I won't say if I agree or disagree with Chuck. His pre-trib is fine as no version is perfect.

Blessings.

True..What you say is true and Chucks does bring up scientific things. But he approaches the bible in a meticulous manner other than the scientific things which I think is commendable. I am more interested in the bible.
The scriptures I put on of the difference between Rapture and second coming are the ones that are distinctive.
Mk 13v27 would be the coming at the end of the tribulation. The elect from everywhere heaven and earth the elect can be the tribulation saints also.
But Thank you very Much for your kind and gracious response I find it very nice not to get yelled at lol
Blessings to yo too Brother Mike.
With the way things are going in the world today I don't think it will be long before we are all together.

Raelyn

 

[reba]

Don't thank me thank The Lord god

The Lord's directness is in His Word.
Your directness in your post.
A prophet of God is never in wrong.. time will tell

 

[Voicndwilderness]

I do believe if you read both of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians in their entirety, you will find the order..... ijs

 

[Brother Mike]

True..What you say is true and Chucks does bring up scientific things. But he approaches the bible in a meticulous manner other than the scientific things which I think is commendable. I am more interested in the bible.
The scriptures I put on of the difference between Rapture and second coming are the ones that are distinctive.
Mk 13v27 would be the coming at the end of the tribulation. The elect from everywhere heaven and earth the elect can be the tribulation saints also.
But Thank you very Much for your kind and gracious response I find it very nice not to get yelled at lol
Blessings to yo too Brother Mike.
With the way things are going in the world today I don't think it will be long before we are all together.

Raelyn

Awesome. I do like the Post trib view (Jesus only coming once for his folks AFTER tribulation) way more than some crazy stuff going around today. It mimics the Pre Trib View except for some timing issues.

As you said, you found 1st and 2nd events of Jesus coming. Once for the church, once to judge the World after the 7th seal and 7th angelic trumpet.

There are many, many, many reasons why you and I won't be here while God pours out his wrath on the rest of the World that rejected the gospel.

I'll list just one here. I don't want to get it into a long confusing mess.


Reason 1 out of many...................Creatures!!! OH MY.

During the time of the end, God uses an angel to appoint 144,000 to be sent out of Jewish folks.

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(Rev 7:3-4)

One was given the seal of God and the others were given to Hurt the sea and the Earth. The command was not to touch anything until all the 144,000 were sealed on their foreheads. After that, I guess they could go and trash the place.

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
(Rev 7:1-2)

Now, If we are still here at this time, why would God not be concerned about the angels destroying stuff until His Body (Church) Was out of the way? We are told to love our spouse as Christ loves the Church and gave himself for it. The Most important thing and mission right now of the Lord is His body, His precious Church.

One would think if we were here, we would at least be mentioned........ Some think God should have said.......

GOD: "OH, and yea, almost forgot my Son's Church.. ya... Ummm. Go mark the 144,000, then give me a moment to figure out what I am going to do with that other 3.2 billion standing in the way."

During the tribulation the seals and trumpets are sounding together. The seals don't do much but set the environment for the Trumpets and vials. The trumpets are a destructive force from God, but the vials are much worse, destroying most of mankind.

5th Angelic Trumpet:

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
(Rev 9:1-6)

The fifth angel blows His trumpet. (Notice the scripture numbers angels, not the trumpets, Hence we don't number them at all concerning what Paul said about some last trump which is not one of these angelic trumpets) God calls his church up personally to meet the Lord in the air.

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(Rev 4:1)

COMPARE:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(1Th 4:16)

Back to creatures:

The 5th Angel blows the trumpet and a pit is opened with smoke. It is just like it says, nothing modern to compare. These locust with stingers come out of this pit that smokes so much it darkens the sun. These creatures are to torment everyone "WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD ON THEIR FOREHEADS."

We have the seal of the Holy Spirit, and not on our foreheads. The 144,000 had the seal on their foreheads and the only ones protected from these creatures. Nobody else is protected unless they were sealed on the forehead with the 144,000

Unless God lied and we have to suffer His wrath, we are not here.

God don't lie though...

1 reason out of many there is a pre-Trib rapture.

Hope I kept it simple enough.

Blessings.

 

[reba]

post trib here

 

[Voicndwilderness]

me, being post trib, finishes a chapter in context before moving forward.......
.....this being after the 144000 from the twelve tribes are named.....
"Rev 7:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

You don't hear about anyone else until after the 1000 years is finished. I only read of two resurrections..... one of the righteous when the dead in Christ shall rise first, (those 'extra' folk along with the 144,000) when those who are alive will be changed, and the one after the 1000 years when those will be resurrected and be judged from the books.....

...but then again,as a personal attack, I was told that my theology was foggy....hmmm

 

[reba]

...but then again,as a personal attack, I was told that my theology was foggy....hmmm

One would think 'old' members could give a "new" guy time to settle in before jumping .....

Voicndwilderness, we do our best to keep up with personal remarks we will not catch them all ... At the same time stating a disagreement with another member by the use of the word foggy is not real bad..... some use the word confusing etc...

Members are welcome to share their beliefs as long as they are in step with the TOS and the SOF...
We also do our best to not moderate from our beliefs .. again keeping with in the TOS and SOF
The address to both TOS and SOF are here...

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?forums/terms-of-service-statement-of-faith.68/

Give us a chance. We have differences but we love the Lord...

 

[jasonc]

U think your nationality makes you a Jew? I tell u there are Jews who have no Jewish blood in them and they are Jews and sons of Abraham. And I tell u there are some born to Jewish parents that are not Jews at all but they are empty vessels

U don't know who is a Jew or who is not neither do I but by their fruit u will no then and all who hear and understands even they are Jews and there's some Jews have ears and practice Jewish tradition even they are not Jews and are deaf tho they hear but can't understand

And have not we all sinned? Don't u know the scriptures? By offending one we offend all. If u don't kill but u swear tho u may not be a murder and may not be condemn to a high degree in this world at the time of judgement u will enter into fire u and the murderer because there was no intercessor for the transgressions but by his faith we are saved through his grace.

Not for our righteousness but for his pleasure Jesus kills who he wants and god saves who he wants

Jesus and god are the same. How do u think the prophets before Jesus came was saved? Because the works was already done but jesus came in the flesh because of the scriptures that was written and words that was prophesied about him before his coming but before any of those saints in this generation and the generation before and the generation after was god knew them and Jesus saved them before the foundation of the world

All who are written in the book of life are Jews

. you don't know what god has spoken to me, my brother. he affirmed were of the seed of Abraham.

I didn't start in the bible in john but genesis. and god does tell whom is or isn't a jew. when I hear someone talk about judiasm and or post that here. I can tell if they are raised in the temple from birth or were interested in it and became one. a few messianic jews have said the same thing. I know one personally. he never knew until a few years ago that he was a jew and was doing the kosher laws and other things as much as could.

he is a jew by that fact he confirmed it by ancestry. he always felt inwardly that he was one. I can post my lineage back to the Ukraine. some of those jews are also Christians. my great uncle allen kline is one.

 

[jasonc]

now then what is the reason why ONLY a son of zadok can serve the lord and minister unto him?

 

[Voicndwilderness]

I got over it

 

[reba]

Welcome aboard Voicndwilderness this calls for some old fashion Pentecostal Shoutin

 

[Voicndwilderness]

this should be fun

 

[Brother Mike]

me, being post trib, finishes a chapter in context before moving forward.......
.....this being after the 144000 from the twelve tribes are named.....

You don't hear about anyone else until after the 1000 years is finished. I only read of two resurrections..... one of the righteous when the dead in Christ shall rise first, (those 'extra' folk along with the 144,000) when those who are alive will be changed, and the one after the 1000 years when those will be resurrected and be judged from the books.....

...but then again,as a personal attack, I was told that my theology was foggy....hmmm

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(Rev 14:3)

They were Redeemed from the Earth and end up in the throne room before the 1,000 years. They might have walked, or raptured.

they where here when the locust were let loose, we are not here.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(Rev 14:3)

They were Redeemed from the Earth and end up in the throne room before the 1,000 years. They might have walked, or raptured.

they where here when the locust were let loose, we are not here.

Blessings.

It's interesting when we think about what a swarm of locust do. They destroy by devouring everything they can eat that is in their path, leaving it desolate.

 

[Themessengeroftruth]

. you don't know what god has spoken to me, my brother. he affirmed were of the seed of Abraham.

I didn't start in the bible in john but genesis. and god does tell whom is or isn't a jew. when I hear someone talk about judiasm and or post that here. I can tell if they are raised in the temple from birth or were interested in it and became one. a few messianic jews have said the same thing. I know one personally. he never knew until a few years ago that he was a jew and was doing the kosher laws and other things as much as could.

he is a jew by that fact he confirmed it by ancestry. he always felt inwardly that he was one. I can post my lineage back to the Ukraine. some of those jews are also Christians. my great uncle allen kline is one.

If you are a jew than keep the commandments, If you are not a jew but are a jew than keep the commandments.

Jew, americans, latins, and all nations to them that were chosen before the foundation of the world even all of them are jews.

Nationality means nothing, your sex means nothing all that matters is a man keep the commandments of god

all who do are children of the highest and are jews

 

[Themessengeroftruth]

The Lord's directness is in His Word.
Your directness in your post.
A prophet of God is never in wrong.. time will tell

All things are possible with god, but it is impossible for the words of god to fail.
What ever is written, what ever was ordain and what ever was sent from his mouth

It will come to pass

 

[Brother Mike]

It's interesting when we think about what a swarm of locust do. They destroy by devouring everything they can eat that is in their path, leaving it desolate.

Well, I have heard lots of things about this from the end time guys on TV to books. Folks have said this is modern armor like copters and tanks and John was describing it the best he could these things the best he could. Wife confirms she has heard the same thing from different sources.

I have news for these folks. We don't keep tanks and modern armor inside smoking pits that when opened block part of the sun.

These locust have stingers, and they do swarm if you seen like Animal planet and just devour everything. A supernatural event as nobody can even take their own life at that time which is not further explained.

pretty crazy.

Blessings.

 

[Edward]

Well, I have heard lots of things about this from the end time guys on TV to books. Folks have said this is modern armor like copters and tanks and John was describing it the best he could these things the best he could. Wife confirms she has heard the same thing from different sources.

I have news for these folks. We don't keep tanks and modern armor inside smoking pits that when opened block part of the sun.

These locust have stingers, and they do swarm if you seen like Animal planet and just devour everything. A supernatural event as nobody can even take their own life at that time which is not further explained.

pretty crazy.

Blessings.

That's what I think too. I think this world has a lot of supernatural happenings coming to it and people are going to freak.

Speaking of supernatural happenings, think about it...on what do we base our faith? Miracles? The Word of God? If miracles, then a lot of people will be deceived because the AC and his little buddy are going to be doing a lot of them, perhaps even raising the dead. We'd better base our faith on the Word of God.

 

[jasonc]

If you are a jew than keep the commandments, If you are not a jew but are a jew than keep the commandments.

Jew, americans, latins, and all nations to them that were chosen before the foundation of the world even all of them are jews.

Nationality means nothing, your sex means nothing all that matters is a man keep the commandments of god

all who do are children of the highest and are jews

ok, then why do think that MODERN DAY ISREAL is in prophecy? to what just punish them? and what about the apostle paul and others? are they not jews? food for though if what you say is true then YOURE entire argument for the antichrist has just been negated. the temple isn't holy to god. the nation of god isn't just isreal but all that come to him.

and some wonder why im not a futurist, you and those that think like that are the reason im not anymore. if nationality doesn't matter then why do you think is going to punish isreal again? and isreal only?

 

[Brother Mike]

ok, then why do think that MODERN DAY ISREAL is in prophecy? to what just punish them? and what about the apostle paul and others? are they not jews? food for though if what you say is true then YOURE entire argument for the antichrist has just been negated. the temple isn't holy to god. the nation of god isn't just isreal but all that come to him.

and some wonder why im not a futurist, you and those that think like that are the reason im not anymore. if nationality doesn't matter then why do you think is going to punish isreal again? and isreal only?

What in the Heck is a Futurist?? I have heard of Pretreism, but not Futurist. There is a doctrine that there are no more "REAL" Jewish. One of the false Doctrines I have spoken about above. Paul was Born of Jewish descent (Free born) but He was fully a Roman citizen.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(Rom 9:24)

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
(Rom 11:1-2)

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
(Rom 11:7-8)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Rom 11:26)

All of Israel shall be saved, by election, promise, God keeping his Word to them. They are the natural branches and have safety through their promise.

And even those others [the fallen branches, Jews], if they do not persist in [clinging to] their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
(Rom 11:23)

So, there are Jewish folks that are still the Seed of Abraham through the promise and faith in God. It's why God helps them, like the war in 1967.

That's what I think too. I think this world has a lot of supernatural happenings coming to it and people are going to freak.

Speaking of supernatural happenings, think about it...on what do we base our faith? Miracles? The Word of God? If miracles, then a lot of people will be deceived because the AC and his little buddy are going to be doing a lot of them, perhaps even raising the dead. We'd better base our faith on the Word of God.

Miracles come by hearing of faith.