Redirectionalism

[donald perry]

Dan you said "1. All Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. It is now God's History Book. "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)".

Daniel, which points to Matthew 24 etc and Revelation is not God's History Book. You are inferring that we are now the same as Jesus Christ, that we have been resurrected, that we do not sin anymore. Now you can deny that you do not infer that, but Jesus and the Apostles would disagree with you. The second coming is said to have to do with much more than the end of the temple. It has to do with a separation between the sheep and the goats, it has to do with being judged either by your works or by the works of Jesus Christ. This method you are using by trying to make the second coming conform strictly to a chronological historical time line is not the intention of the Bible. Many times Jesus spoke things and no one understood Him, in fact no one even knew He was going to be raised from the dead!, and when He did rise His own followers had problems believing it.

This second coming in Matthew 24 and Revelation, for it to make any sense at all has to be taken in a much grander scale then simply saying it is a historical account. God has not sent out His prophets to be news reporters, so that when the story is over it is time to move on to the next dispensation. Rather we see that where there is a prophecy it has idealistic truth in it for all time.

So when JLB says he is looking for a destruction of a third temple he is correct, idealistically we are not in the MOST HOLY today, we are still coming into the New Jerusalem, we are still in the already but not yet. We are still dealing with people who want to assume that they can get into heaven on their own righteousness, we are still dealing with people who assume that the do not need Jesus Christ of that AD 33 - AD 66 dispensation, we are still dealing with people who are in that same AD 66 mentality inside that old temple that was destroyed and will be destroyed again. Those people who have jumped outside that dispensation, who are Preterists, are now at a loss to identify Jesus Christ and may have to resort to finding their own righteousness in order to make it to heaven. If Jesus came in AD 70 a second time without sin, and has finished our atonement and sanctification and we are in the New Heavens and earth what we have done is in effect said that we will be saved just like the Jews who wanted to get to heaven without Jesus Christ. In other words, if you think you have arrived because you are ethnically a Jew, Jesus said that He could raise up stones from Abraham, and you are wrong. If you think you have arrived because your watch says 2013, you are wrong, You are making the same argument. I am assuming that Dan is a Hyper-Preterist, but Dan maybe a Partial Preterist. But it makes no difference. Once you start arguing for a chronological timeline that everything needs to fit into, without any kind of double meaning or idealistic meaning, you just bought a one way ticket to Hyper-Preterism. Preterism is like gravity. When you are in it you are always falling. You may not realize where you are, maybe you are finding that there is a cool breeze. But there is no argument that a Partial Preterist can make to stop the progression. Sure he can argue from Creeds like Gentry, he can even make valid arguments from Soteriology. But he can not make any arguments from his Preterism. This proves that his system is in grave error.

 

[JLB]

I already answered that question several times. Maybe it would be easier if I tell you what I believe in general terms.

1. All Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. It is now God's History Book. "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

2. The great tribulation occurred in 66-70 A.D., exactly as Jesus predicted, and it was as horrible as he said it would be.

3. Christ's coming and the first resurrection (the Rapture) occurred around 70 A.D., exactly as Jesus said they would. Those in the first resurrection reigned for 1000 years. Then Satan was loosed out of prison to go after the Church. We are now battling Satan's war against the Church and awaiting final judgement.

4. Once Satan is defeated the final judgement will occur where everyone else is "delivered up" to stand before the throne for judgement. Paul spoke of the three events in 1 Cor 15:23-24, which reads, " But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (2) they that are Christ's at his coming. (3) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." Those in the first resurrection are not subject to the second death or the final judgement, since they are already serving in Heaven.

5. Israel is no longer the "chosen people," and has not been since the days of Christ, as God has made abundantly clear. God is no respector of persons, and anyone who thinks otherwise has never read the New Testament where it is stated in about every possible way

6. There will not be a third earthly temple, nor is there even a hint of one in either the Old or New Testament. If there was one, at best it would be a pretty tourist attraction. It would have no spiritual significance whatsoever, except to deceive the nations, as Satan tends to do well.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the events of verse 26, and how you can think that events that cover a time span of 37 years, can fit into, and be fulfilled in a seven year prophecy.

The events of verse 26 are not part of the 70th week. PERIOD.

You have not answered this, nor have you explained it.

The events of verse 26 which include the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, are not in the 70th week.

The 69th week ended 5 days before Messiah was cut off on "Palm Sunday" when the whole city of Jerusalem declared Hosanna to the son of David.

That was the fulfillment and the end of the 69th week.

The 70th week will be when the prince who is to come, "confirms" the [preexisting] covenant for 1 week.
In the middle of the week, he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.


The events of verse 26 are not associated with the 70th week, and do not fit into the 70th week.

The 70th week starts sometime after the year 70 AD.

The Great Tribulation is worse than any tribulation that has ever been from the beginning of the world.

Jerusalem and the Temple had already been destroyed which DISQUALIFIES the events of 70 AD from being the Great Tribulation.


JLB

 

[Dan00]

Dan I would have to agree that JLB has a better perspective on Daniel. And I say better because he does not understand your point number 5. Let me add to Dan's Point as a #5b ,#5c, #5d etc. #5b. JBL, we need to understand the word Anti-Christ. What does it mean? Did you do a study on it? Do you know what it is about? If so then you have permission to read the rest of my letter to you, if not then forget it, hit the delete button because we are both wasting our time. OK, now I am going to assume you looked up the word and understand what the word means. My next point is that if we are antiChrist and we decide we are going to build a temple, would Paul call this THE TEMPLE OF GOD in 2 Thess. 2? No He would not. #5c Most of the the Jews today in Jerusalem are ethnologically converts from Turkey and the USSR, where are you going to get these Jews from with any certainty that pure ethnic Jews from Abraham are going to build this temple----------------the first Jews appear to have been back with curly hair and were sent to Africa and Black people are well aware of this. Do not start a race war to try to say that black people can not be Jews, there are black Jews today in Africa. The most oldest painting of Jesus and the Apostles show them a Negros with curly hair. The Bible says that Jesus has curly hair. See the youtube videos. The black people in NJ may be more likely to be the decedents of Levi then the Jews in Jerusalem today. But to operate the temple, to be a temple of God, I suppose you would first need to start with some kind Christian Levite. From there on it becomes impossible. Christians moving Jews from the USSR who converted to Judaism are supposing they are doing the will of God. And they may in fact be doing the will of God. But why was the temple destroyed the fist time? You really need to think about that, because it is not even on your radar, it is invisible to you in the Biblical prospective. When Jerusalem was destroyed the last time it was because the Jews were under the intense wrath of God from not accepting His Son. Now you suppose that they can continue into a new temple like nothing happened and God will put His stamp of approval on it, and reject His Son? God is not going to reject His Son so He can call that work the TEMPLE OF GOD. 2 Thess. 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Impossible. Your rebuilding idea does not work.

Donald, I had a little trouble following you, but I agree you, as per my #6, that there will NOT be another earthly temple of God. The holy temple is defined in Ephesians as heavenly, and there is no other holy temple:

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

Dan

 

[Dan00]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the events of verse 26, and how you can think that events that cover a time span of 37 years, can fit into, and be fulfilled in a seven year prophecy.

The events of verse 26 are not part of the 70th week. PERIOD.

You have not answered this, nor have you explained it.

The events of verse 26 which include the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, are not in the 70th week.

The 69th week ended 5 days before Messiah was cut off on "Palm Sunday" when the whole city of Jerusalem declared Hosanna to the son of David.

That was the fulfillment and the end of the 69th week.

The 70th week will be when the prince who is to come, "confirms" the [preexisting] covenant for 1 week.
In the middle of the week, he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.


The events of verse 26 are not associated with the 70th week, and do not fit into the 70th week.

The 70th week starts sometime after the year 70 AD.

The Great Tribulation is worse than any tribulation that has ever been from the beginning of the world.

Jerusalem and the Temple had already been destroyed which DISQUALIFIES the events of 70 AD from being the Great Tribulation.


JLB

JLB. Believe what you want to believe.

 

[donald perry]

Donald, I had a little trouble following you, but I agree you, as per my #6, that there will NOT be another earthly temple of God. The holy temple is defined in Ephesians as heavenly, and there is no other holy temple:

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

Dan

Dan you wrote in #6 "6. There will not be a third earthly temple, nor is there even a hint of one in either the Old or New Testament. If there was one, at best it would be a pretty tourist attraction. It would have no spiritual significance whatsoever, except to deceive the nations, as Satan tends to do well."

There are all kinds of people, even here right now like JLB who will resurrect that earthly temple in the minds, for whatever reasons. It is part of there thinking. Or if not, then something like that is stuck in their heads. The problem never went away, what was established was the way and the method for its destruction. Now when we go out today to preach the Gospel, who will be left behind and who will follow Christ outside the gates? Who will be watching and waiting and who will be sleeping with sinners?

JLB is not that far from the truth, however foremost he has a problem with your point number 5 because his position asserts that today there are two ways of salvation in the TEMPLE OF GOD. Because of this he is setting up another Messianic system, another Christ. Another Messianic challenge to the world. Why a Christian would want to suggest baffles the mind.

 

[JLB]

JLB. Believe what you want to believe.

I believe 37 years of time, does not fit into 7 years of time.

If we can't understand this simple thing, then how can we be expected to understand difficult things.

First let's grasp the basic, foundational, simple things, a child can grasp, then we can move on to more difficult things.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Dan you wrote in #6 "6. There will not be a third earthly temple, nor is there even a hint of one in either the Old or New Testament. If there was one, at best it would be a pretty tourist attraction. It would have no spiritual significance whatsoever, except to deceive the nations, as Satan tends to do well."

There are all kinds of people, even here right now like JLB who will resurrect that earthly temple in the minds, for whatever reasons. It is part of there thinking. Or if not, then something like that is stuck in their heads. The problem never went away, what was established was the way and the method for its destruction. Now when we go out today to preach the Gospel, who will be left behind and who will follow Christ outside the gates? Who will be watching and waiting and who will be sleeping with sinners?

JLB is not that far from the truth, however foremost he has a problem with your point number 5 because his position asserts that today there are two ways of salvation in the TEMPLE OF GOD. Because of this he is setting up another Messianic system, another Christ. Another Messianic challenge to the world. Why a Christian would want to suggest baffles the mind.

There is ONE WAY to salvation, Jesus Christ!

Just because it was prophesied that there will be another Temple, during the seven year period that is dedicated to The Jewish people, for the city of Jerusalem, doesn't mean there are two ways to salvation.

There has always been One Way, obeying The Lord, YHWH who made Covenant with Abraham, and became flesh.

He is the same yesterday, today and forever.


JLB

 

[donald perry]

You missed my point JLB.

But I will do it your way.

I guess you are talking about Daniel showing a second destruction of the temple. I think that is impossible for a lot of reasons, some I have already stated. But lets look at your reason for this being otherwise the case.

KJV "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

OK, looking at this verse again I see first of all we have 70 weeks. "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince" You clock starts in BC. So, I think that passed already, especially since your temple is missing, and how would you expect the Jews who were reading Daniel to understand this? I don't think it was supposed to be confusing for them. So, we have 70 weeks. You can't push that off much longer than 70 weeks of years can you?, into thousands and thousands of years later dealing with another race of Jews who converted to Judaism from Russia.

What SPICIFIC words in the WHOLE text do you see after 70 weeks that would indicate this destruction belongs to a second temple (that has already been destroyed once) and why?

 

[JLB]

You missed my point JLB.

But I will do it your way.

I guess you are talking about Daniel showing a second destruction of the temple. I think that is impossible for a lot of reasons, some I have already stated. But lets look at your reason for this being otherwise the case.

KJV "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

OK, looking at this verse again I see first of all we have 70 weeks. "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince" You clock starts in BC. So, I think that passed already, especially since your temple is missing, and how would you expect the Jews who were reading Daniel to understand this? I don't think it was supposed to be confusing for them. So, we have 70 weeks. You can't push that off much longer than 70 weeks of years can you?, into thousands and thousands of years later dealing with another race of Jews who converted to Judaism from Russia.

What SPICIFIC words in the WHOLE text do you see after 70 weeks that would indicate this destruction belongs to a second temple (that has already been destroyed once) and why?

The events of 70 AD are not associated with the 70 weeks.

The events of 70 AD happen after the 69 th week.

Do you agree or disagree?


JLB

 

[donald perry]

"The events of 70 AD are not associated with the 70 weeks." I think they have to be. The Paragraph starts out with "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish ..." Would you have obeyed Jesus and left Jerusalem as they did in AD 70 or not?

 

[Dan00]

Daniel, which points to Matthew 24 etc and Revelation is not God's History Book. You are inferring that we are now the same as Jesus Christ, that we have been resurrected, that we do not sin anymore.

Daniel was fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem, as was all other Old Testament Prophecy. These words by Jesus are pretty clear.

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
There was no New Testament at the time, so Jesus was speaking of the Old Testament.

Even Cyrus Scofield had to admit that the Olivet Discourse in Luke points to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem; and Cyrus usually did everything he could to spiritualize the words of Christ so we could not understand Christs' plain words, and, therefore, would believe his preconceived agenda.

In this case Scofield had no choice, since his intent was to deceive, but to create a hodgepodge of interpretations for the parallel prophecies in Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, which are, in reality, talking of the very same event: the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Revelation is not the Old Testament. We are currently in Rev 20:8 or 9. The devil is waging a world-wide war on the Church (e.g., the camp of the saints and the beloved city, which is New Jerusalem, which is the Church.) There is an all-out assault on anything Christian: prayer in school and government offices; crosses; nativity scenes; morality; . . . you name it! Certainly you see it, too!

Many have been misled, by misreading verse 9, into thinking the devil will be going after physical Jerusalem. The “breath” of the earth means the entire earth. The word "breadth" is in the dictionary.

The saints are all in heaven, and so is their camp. I doubt I have met anyone with the faith of the saints that Jude said we should strive for; therefore I am puzzled by all these modern-day Christians who claim to be saints:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints:” (Jude 1:3)

The days of Jude was the generation of Christ, and thousands received the Holy Ghost at the Day of Pentecost; and, with that God-given power, taught new converts to Christ a unique type of faith we can barely imagine. Most of the early Christians were persecuted and martyred. They were not your run-of-the-mill Christians.

Therefore, we should be careful not to read too much into the New Testament epistles, for example, when Paul refers to the early Christians as “Saint.” They were and are Saints!

Now you can deny that you do not infer that, but Jesus and the Apostles would disagree with you.

Show me. If you cannot you are merely casting aspersions. If Jesus and the Apostles don’t agree with my belief I change my belief without hesitation. So show me the book, chapter and verse where I am in disagreement with them, and I will not only change my belief, but will give you my sincere gratitude.

I rarely quote the Old Testament. I don’t need it. The New Testament will support everything I believe.

When I do quote the Old Testament, it is only to clear up misconceptions created by popular interpretations of those with agendas, like Scofield.

The second coming is said to have to do with much more than the end of the temple.

The destruction of the temple and the first resurrection occurred at the first Coming—during the destruction of Jerusalem around A.D. 70 You can read all about it in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13. Don’t read anything into it or add any words to the prophecy, such as explaining away “this generation” to mean something other than “this generation,” and you will understand it.

I don’t know of a second coming: only a first resurrection (Rev 20:4-5,) which happened in 70 A.D.; followed by a final judgement, which will happen in our future (Rev 20:11,) after the devil is defeated.

In case you have not noticed, I always support my beliefs with scripture. Otherwise, I would not be displaying much faith in my interpretation.

Donald, you wrote a fairly lengthy post, but you did not post a single line of scripture! Can you rewrite it with scriptural references, high-lighting those portions that support your interpretation? Otherwise, I don’t know if there is support in the Holy Scriptures for your interpretation. Besides, I might learn something. It would be much appreciated.

I will finish my reply when you repost with scriptural support.

Dan

 

[donald perry]

Dan, I used to be Hyper-Preterist 13 years ago. You are a Partial Preterist. That system does not work. Preterism is like gravity, do you have an argument from Preterism to stop you from being a hyper preterist?

You said we are in We are currently in Rev 20:8 or 9. "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Jesus said that he would raise the righteous on the last day over and over again. He also said that at the resurrection He would separate the wicked from the righteous over and over again. The resurrection is not seperated by 1000 years.

In the millennium we have some beheaded people doing something. This is not an age anyone is in while we are in the chapters before and after refering to other ages. Your missing the point John is trying to make, he is talking about and idea he is trying to get across, he is not a new reporter. God does not care to recount history so much as that he wants to express ideas.

So, you need a better verse (understanding) than Rev 20:8 - 9, to keep you out of full-preterism.

 

[Dan00]

Dan, I used to be Hyper-Preterist 13 years ago. You are a Partial Preterist. That system does not work. Preterism is like gravity, do you have an argument from Preterism to stop you from being a hyper preterist?

You said we are in We are currently in Rev 20:8 or 9. "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Jesus said that he would raise the righteous on the last day over and over again. He also said that at the resurrection He would separate the wicked from the righteous over and over again. The resurrection is not seperated by 1000 years.

In the millennium we have some beheaded people doing something. This is not an age anyone is in while we are in the chapters before and after refering to other ages. Your missing the point John is trying to make, he is talking about and idea he is trying to get across, he is not a new reporter. God does not care to recount history so much as that he wants to express ideas.

So, you need a better verse (understanding) than Rev 20:8 - 9, to keep you out of full-preterism.

I don't believe you read a word I said.

 

[donald perry]

no, I believe everything you said and more, you are a Partial Preterist.
if you want to read my posts on Planet Preterist .com starting with Roderick I think only then you could understand where I am coming from. I read everything you said ... well maybe not every last word.

 

[Dan00]

no, I believe everything you said and more, you are a Partial Preterist.
if you want to read my posts on Planet Preterist .com starting with Roderick I think only then you could understand where I am coming from. I read everything you said ... well maybe not every last word.

edited

Show me some scripture.

 

[Dan00]

Dan, I used to be Hyper-Preterist 13 years ago. You are a Partial Preterist. That system does not work. Preterism is like gravity, do you have an argument from Preterism to stop you from being a hyper preterist?

You said we are in We are currently in Rev 20:8 or 9. "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Jesus said that he would raise the righteous on the last day over and over again. He also said that at the resurrection He would separate the wicked from the righteous over and over again. The resurrection is not seperated by 1000 years.

In the millennium we have some beheaded people doing something. This is not an age anyone is in while we are in the chapters before and after refering to other ages. Your missing the point John is trying to make, he is talking about and idea he is trying to get across, he is not a new reporter. God does not care to recount history so much as that he wants to express ideas.

So, you need a better verse (understanding) than Rev 20:8 - 9, to keep you out of full-preterism.

Donald,

I apologize. I get so tired of seeing unsupported opinions, sometimes I get a little frustrated. And no need to worry about me and "full preterism."

====

This is the reason I believe we are in Revelation 20:8 or 9. It is not hard to follow, and well documented with scripture.

After the First Resurrection of 70 A.D., this event occurred:

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." (Revelation 20:1-3)

Babylon the Great, that is, Jerusalem was destroyed just prior to Satan being bound. And how were the sins of Jerusalem summarized?

". . . by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." (Revelation 18:23)

In order:

Jerusalem: by thy sorceries were all nations deceived
Satan: [bound so he] should deceive the nations no more

That is more than a mere coincidence. In fact, it is safe to conclude the leadership of Jerusalem were children and/or instruments of Satan, and there were many references in the Gospels to that effect, beginning with John the Baptist:

"But when he [John the Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Matthew 3:7)

This verse by Jesus explains the father-child relationship and some characteristics of Satan:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

This mentions their converts:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Matthew 23:15)

And this predicts their destiny:

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)

There are many other verses in the Gospels that describe the Pharisees as serpents; vipers; "full of dead men's bones;" and murderers and tormenters of the prophets, apostles and the righteous in general. All other groups of people get little or no mention from Christ, even the Romans. That is something worth considering.

Also recall that this group committed the greatest crime in the history of the world: the murder of our Lord and Savior. Who would do that, but Satan.

The one verse by the apostles that stands out regarding the Jewish leadership is this:

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." (1 Thessalonians 2:14-15)

Those are pretty strong words coming from a man "circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee." (Philippians 3:5)

In other translations the phrase "contrary to all men" becomes in some cases even more damning, for example:

"hostile to everyone" (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
"enemies of everyone" (New International Reader's Version)
"enemies of the whole human race" (GOD’S WORD Translation)

We as Christians understand that anyone who opposes Christ cannot possibly be a good person to lead us. But, what is "Christ?" That is, what does He teach?

"...all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

That is it, in a nutshell. Paul confirms the simplicity of Christ's law:

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Gal 5:14)

What is wrong with that? What is there to oppose?

The answer is simple. Christ offers no earthly power. Satan and his children are consumed by the thought of obtaining power. They like ordering people around. They arrogantly oppose anything that is decent and anything that will give the people under them any sort of freedom or liberty. Recall the "mission" of Christ as presented by Isaiah:

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" (Isaiah 61:1-2)

Who would object to that?

Those who despise Christ and everything He stands for.

And who would they be?

The same group that despised him from the beginning. The same group that were the recipients of his vengeance in 70 A.D. The same group that wants an earthly king. The same group that wants to rule the world. The great deceivers!

The "Thousand Year Reign" has long-since been completed, and Satan has been out of his prison for quite some time deceiving the world and planning his "final solution." But he is not coming after those in physical Israel or Jerusalem. They are his allies, or, at least, many are. Satan is coming after the Church!

"And [Satan's armies] went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city..." (Revelation 20:9)

Yes, he is coming after us! And he has been after us for quite some time. Look at the mess he has made of our once great Christian nation in only the last century?

He will not win, as is written; but we should not make it so easy for him and his wicked children in the time they have left.

Dan

 

[JLB]

Dan00 said -

After the First Resurrection of 70 A.D., this event occurred:

No resurrections from the dead have occurred, except Jesus Christ, who is the First Fruits.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

You have no scripture to support your claim.

Everything I have read from you has this pattern of unsupported claims.

When I ask you to answer a simple question, you ignore what I have said and give some persons "commentary" for me to read.

This has always been the pattern of those who follow the teachings of Preterism.


JLB

 

[Dan00]

No resurrections from the dead have occurred, except Jesus Christ, who is the First Fruits.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

You have no scripture to support your claim.

Everything I have read from you has this pattern of unsupported claims.

When I ask you to answer a simple question, you ignore what I have said and give some persons "commentary" for me to read.

This has always been the pattern of those who follow the teachings of Preterism.

JLB

I have posted my views many times, all heavily documented with scripture. All you have to do is take the time read them. You are welcome to take each one, line by line, and show me where I have misused the scriptures. I welcome it.

edited

Dan

 

[Dan00]

no, I believe everything you said and more, you are a Partial Preterist.
if you want to read my posts on Planet Preterist .com starting with Roderick I think only then you could understand where I am coming from. I read everything you said ... well maybe not every last word.

Donald,

I recently wrote a computer application that contains the KJV, my notes, my keyword concordance, references (books, articles, etc.), Scofields 1917 Notes (to make sure I am on the right track--whatever he says, I believe the opposite), commentaries (direct access and links to the most popular post-trib authors), and History/Tools (Most of the great early historians, the Talmud, Septuagint, other tools, plus direct access to some of the oddball translations (Darby, HCSB, NWT, NAB))

If you know anything about programming, I can explain the design to you.

These are a hodgepodge of posts that contain most of my research. Let me know if I made any misinterpretations (this time, please provide the supporting scripture so I don't accidentally dismiss your remarks.)


Thanks,
Dan


http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/revalation.51126/#post-878023

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/revalation.51126/#post-878192

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/revalation.51126/page-2#post-878311

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/revalation.51126/page-3#post-878588

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/redirectionalism.50783/page-6#post-878820

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...israel-will-be-saved.50931/page-3#post-878918

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...israel-will-be-saved.50931/page-4#post-878992

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...israel-will-be-saved.50931/page-4#post-879132

 

[donald perry]

No resurrections from the dead have occurred, except Jesus Christ, who is the First Fruits.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

You have no scripture to support your claim.

Everything I have read from you has this pattern of unsupported claims.

When I ask you to answer a simple question, you ignore what I have said and give some persons "commentary" for me to read.

This has always been the pattern of those who follow the teachings of Preterism.

JLB

JLB there are a lot of verses for that. Here is just one, please read it in context.

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

If you are raised as only a soul you go to Sheol not heaven, we all follow one type, which is Jesus.

Now that Jesus has overcome Hell and death we go to heaven, we do not have to wait for him to overcome it a second time. Jesus did not die to resurrect meat, it was for another reason.