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Refuting Preterism

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Sometimes what is typed can be cinstrued in a different attitude than intended. What I typed was objective and intended ti be encouraging and constructive of his due diligence. Its wasn't intended as a persona, acusatory 'you' but observatory. I really din't feel there was any ill attitude from my part, but perhaps it was presented that way. But with the removal of the encoragement to be a berean, and as the topic seems well duscussed and presented, perhaps a break is in order ti allow reflectiin on the perspectives presented.

anks mod, though there is/was no animosity felt or intended.
 
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No, the babylonian captivity and the conquest of the medes were foretypes of the desolation of jerusalem by the Romans at the end of the mosaic covt age (ti which the temple and all the administration applued).



Neither have you acknowledged other informatiin privided such as about babylon or the confurming comments of Paul in 2 cor 3 or Heb 8.

But thanjs again for the exposure of the topic for others to see.


1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

11 The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 12:1-5, 11-12


All the people who came against Jerusalem.

Did this happen to the Romans? No.

The Romans went home as conquering heros and general Titus went on to become Emperor of Rome.

This event is in the Future!


JLB
 
Sometimes what is typed can be cinstrued in a different attitude than intended. What I typed was objective and intended ti be encouraging and constructive of his due diligence. Its wasn't intended as a persona, acusatory 'you' but observatory. I really din't feel there was any ill attitude from my part, but perhaps it was presented that way. But with the removal of the encoragement to be a berean, and as the topic seems well duscussed and presented, perhaps a break is in order ti allow reflectiin on the perspectives presented.

anks mod, though there is/was no animosity felt or intended.

We often, sadly, have to paint with a broad brush.... thank you for your reply
 
No, the babylonian captivity and the conquest of the medes were foretypes of the desolation of jerusalem by the Romans at the end of the mosaic covt age (ti which the temple and all the administration applued).

Neither have you acknowledged other informatiin privided such as about babylon or the confurming comments of Paul in 2 cor 3 or Heb 8.

But thanjs again for the exposure of the topic for others to see.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

11 The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 12:1-5, 11-12
All the people who came against Jerusalem.
Did this hppen to the Romans? No.
The Romans went home as conquering heros and general Titus went on to become Emperor of Rome.

This event is in the Future!
JLB
What does the response have to do with what is written in 2Cor 3 or Heb 8?

RE: Jerusalem; Jerusalem in prophecies reguarding the time of the coming of God can refer to NEW JERUSALEM of the new covanent which is the believing heart of the new earth as well as the continuos awareness of the work and favor of God revealed to Jesus and his "saints" (Jerusalem) during those events and in that city. See Gal 4 and Heb 12:18ff. They, in @ 60ad were recieving the favor of the new Jerusalem, the kingdom which cannt be shaken.

Is 61 Is another example were the beauty and peace of the christians lives (though having been surrounded and oppressed by all nations) would be a replacement and joy for the ashes of the city/temple.

Thanks for the exposure and discussion.
 
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Jerusalem in prophecies reguarding the time of the coming of God can refer to NEW JERUSALEM of the new covanent which is the believing heart of the new covanent as well as the continuos awareness of the favor of God revealed to Jesus and his "saints" (Jerusalem) during those events and in that city.

This is a typical response from those who hold to the doctrines of Preterism.

This Scripture has not been fulfilled, plain and simple.

Why would anyone want to deny that this scripture is yet to be fulfilled?

This scripture has nothing to do with a Spiritual Jerusalem.

It is a future prophecy about Jerusalem and the nations that have come against her.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 12:12


The Lord Jesus returns with all His saints and fights against those nations.

3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

This is seen in the New Testament as well -

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/revelation/19.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-e sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

and again -

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8


JLB
 
And we remain in disagreement due to the different perspectives of being able or not able to 'see' the spirit and intent of the prophecies to their original people groups or to insist on the ' letter' of the prophecies ti whiever is reading it.

To continue arguing over specific passages becomes futile and without resolution without addressing foundational differences such as this and others already mentioned; such as the limited subject, parameters, topic and focus of 'end time', 'latter day' etc prophecies as noted in post 412.

Have a good day.
 
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And we remain in disagreement due to the different perspectives of being able or not able to 'see' the spirit and intent of the prophecies to their original people groups or to insist on the ' letter' of the prophecies ti whiever is reading it.

To continue arguing over specific passages becomes futile and without resolution without addressing foundational differences such as this and others already mentioned; such as the limited subject, parameters, topic and focus of 'end time', 'latter day' etc prophecies as noted in post 412.

Have a good day.

No argument. The scripture is clear.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 12:12

When the scripture clearly says -

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet.
Are we to believe that this is a "spiritual reference to spirit beings" who are attacking the New Jerusalem?

They have flesh and eyeballs and tongues. These are flesh and blood humans who are attacking the city of Jerusalem.
This scripture has not been fulfilled.


The main thing is, you have shown those who read these post why Preterism has been declared Heresy by this Forum and others.


JLB


 
Jerusalem in prophecies reguarding the time of the coming of God can refer to NEW JERUSALEM of the new covanent which is the believing heart of the new covanent as well as the continuos awareness of the favor of God revealed to Jesus and his "saints" (Jerusalem) during those events and in that city.

This is a typical response from those who hold to the doctrines of Preterism.

This Scripture has not been fulfilled, plain and simple.

Why would anyone want to deny that this scripture is yet to be fulfilled?

This scripture has nothing to do with a Spiritual Jerusalem.

It is a future prophecy about Jerusalem and the nations that have come against her.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 12:12


The Lord Jesus returns with all His saints and fights against those nations.

3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

This is seen in the New Testament as well -

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

and again -

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8


JLB

Try this for size

"While it is true that Rome is west of Jerusalemthe motif being imputed into Revelation 16 is parallel to when Babylon was destroyed by the Persians. ThePersian king Cyrus cyphoned water from the Euphrates and was able to seize Babylon (Isaiah44:27-28). Interestingly, Babylon is acircumlocution for Jerusalemthroughout the book of Revelation. Revelation 17 begins to define Babylon calling it "mystery Babylon"thereby alerting us to the non-literal use of the name Babylon. Chapter 18 then centers in on this"mystery Babylon"and closes with the statement that "in her was found the blood of prophetsand of saints" (18:24). This closing statement closely parallels ourMaster's own words in Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets and stonesthose sent to her!" Paul also makes a similar statement in 1 Thessalonians2:15 stating that the Jews in Judea had"both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out."Clearly John has Jerusalem as the "mystery Babylon" and the Romans posing as a sort ofcontemporary Persian Empire. By extension, inking Cyrus' conquerring of Babylon Isaiah titles him as the Lord's Messiah(45:1). Likewise, it was Jesus who would ultimately conquer this Neo-BabylonianJerusalem as stated in the Septuagint of Daniel 9:26 "And after thesixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgmentin him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that iscoming.

Finally, if the direction ofEast is to be taken literally then we must notice that Titus with the 10th and5th legions had gained Eastern access to Jerusalemby overtaking Jerichoin the year 68. There they camped for the winters. In the end it was the 10thlegion that came to the Mount of Olives (East of Jerusalem) and began tocatapult stones weighing 1 talent just as mentioned regarding the Babylon in Revelation16:19-21. I really hope this was clear and helped in this thread. Joseph Eidsvik
E
 
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Jerusalem in prophecies reguarding the time of the coming of God can refer to NEW JERUSALEM of the new covanent which is the believing heart of the new covanent as well as the continuos awareness of the favor of God revealed to Jesus and his "saints" (Jerusalem) during those events and in that city.

This is a typical response from those who hold to the doctrines of Preterism.

This Scripture has not been fulfilled, plain and simple.

Why would anyone want to deny that this scripture is yet to be fulfilled?

This scripture has nothing to do with a Spiritual Jerusalem.

It is a future prophecy about Jerusalem and the nations that have come against her.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 12:12


The Lord Jesus returns with all His saints and fights against those nations.

3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

This is seen in the New Testament as well -

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15

and again -

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8


JLB

Try this for size

"While it is true that Rome is west of Jerusalemthe motif being imputed into Revelation 16 is parallel to when Babylon was destroyed by the Persians. ThePersian king Cyrus cyphoned water from the Euphrates and was able to seize Babylon (Isaiah44:27-28). Interestingly, Babylon is acircumlocution for Jerusalemthroughout the book of Revelation. Revelation 17 begins to define Babylon calling it "mystery Babylon"thereby alerting us to the non-literal use of the name Babylon. Chapter 18 then centers in on this"mystery Babylon"and closes with the statement that "in her was found the blood of prophetsand of saints" (18:24). This closing statement closely parallels ourMaster's own words in Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets and stonesthose sent to her!" Paul also makes a similar statement in 1 Thessalonians2:15 stating that the Jews in Judea had"both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out."Clearly John has Jerusalem as the "mystery Babylon" and the Romans posing as a sort ofcontemporary Persian Empire. By extension, inking Cyrus' conquerring of Babylon Isaiah titles him as the Lord's Messiah(45:1). Likewise, it was Jesus who would ultimately conquer this Neo-BabylonianJerusalem as stated in the Septuagint of Daniel 9:26 "And after thesixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgmentin him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that iscoming.

Finally, if the direction ofEast is to be taken literally then we must notice that Titus with the 10th and5th legions had gained Eastern access to Jerusalemby overtaking Jerichoin the year 68. There they camped for the winters. In the end it was the 10thlegion that came to the Mount of Olives (East of Jerusalem) and began tocatapult stones weighing 1 talent just as mentioned regarding the Babylon in Revelation16:19-21. I really hope this was clear and helped in this thread.

Are you trying to convince us that Zechariah 12 is an account of the events of 70 AD?

1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

4 In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem.

These scriptures from Zechariah 12 refer to the future when the Lord Returns.


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


JLB
 
In the book of Ephesians we are told to put on the Gosple Armoure,would it be accurate to say that preterist do not need this?I ask because of the below verses,and you alls contention that satan and his angels have already been thrown into the lake of fire,and therefore have no influence over us humans........

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Also,I asked this awhile back,and don't believe I got an answer...Question is, do you all take communion,if so why?

I Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He come.""



 
Another reason,why preterisim can't be true......

The below are quotes from those who believe as I do,centering around the 7000 year plan of God

TESTIMONY OF THE EARLY SAINTS

Epistle of Barnabas 15:3-5 He speaks of the Sabbath at the beginning of
the Creation, "And God made in six days the works of His hands and on the
seventh day He made an end, and He rested on the seventh day, and He
sanctified it. Consider, my children what this signifies: That He made an
end in six days. The meaning of it is this: that in six thousand years the
Creator will bring all things to an end, for with Him one day is a thousand
years. He Himself testifies, saying, Behold the day of the Lord shall be as
a thousand years. Therefore children, in six days, that is in six thousand
years, all things shall be accomplished. And He rested on the seventh day:
He means this, that when His Son shall come He will destroy the season of
the wicked one, and will judge the godless, and will change the sun and the
moon and the stars, and then He will truly rest on the seventh day.

Secrets of Enoch 33:1 And I appointed the eighth day also, that the eighth
day should be the first created after My work, and that the first seven
revolve in the form of the seven thousand, and that at the beginning of the
eighth thousand there should be a time of not counting, endless, with
neither years nor months nor weeks nor days nor hours.

Elias (Eliyahu) 200 B.C. The world endures six thousand years; two
thousand before the Torah, two thousand under the Torah, and two thousand
under the Messiah.

Irenaeus 150 A.D. (was trained by Polycarp who was trained by John who
wrote the Book of Revelation. Quote is from "Against Heresies" Book 5, 28,
3: For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years
shall it be concluded...This is an account of the things formerly created, as
also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a
thousand years; and in six days created things were completed; it is
evident therefore, that they will come to an end at the six thousandth
year.

Cyprian 250 A.D. (archchampion of orthodox Christianity against heresies)
"The Treatises Of Cyprian" Chapter 11: The first seven days in the Divine
arrangement contain seven thousand years.

Lactantius 300 A.D. (Tutor to the son of the Roman Emperor Constantine, was
a highly respected scholar. He wrote sometime before his death in 330 A.D.
the following in "The Divine Institutes" Book 7, Chapter 25: I have
already shown above that when 6000 years shall be completed this change
must take place. Chapter 26: But he (Satan) also, when the thousand years
of the Kingdom, that is, 7000 of the world, shall begin to be ended, will
be loosed afresh, and being sent forth from prison, will go forth and
assemble all the nations, which shall then be under the dominion of the
Righteous, that they may make war against the Holy City.

Methodius 300 A.D. (Banquet Of The Ten Virgins, Discourse 9, Chapter 1):
For in six days God made the heaven and earth, and finished the whole world
. . and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, so by a figure in the
seventh month (Tishri ) when the fruits of the earth have been gathered in,
we are commanded to keep the Feast to the Lord, which signifies that, when
this world shall be terminated at the seven thousand years, when God shall
have completed the world, He shall rejoice in us. . . . Then, when the
appointed times shall have been accomplished, and God shall have ceased to
form this creation, in the seventh month, the Great Resurrection Day, it is
commanded that the Feast of our Tabernacles shall be celebrated to the
Lord.

Latimer 1552 A.D. The world was ordained to endure, as all learned men
affirm, 6000 years. Now of that number there be passed 5,552 years, so that
there is no more left but 448 years.

Rabbi Ketina: The world endures six thousand years and one thousand it
shall be laid waste, whereof it is said 'The Lord alone shall be exalted in
that day'. As out of seven years every seventh is a year of remission, that
God alone may be exalted in that day

We are approaching the 7000 year,ie 7th Day,now,and that Day could not have happened in AD 70

If interested please read the article from the link below

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9807/980715_d.html


For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and
as a watch in the night.
Ps 90:4

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the
Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet 3:8

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in
them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath
day, and hallowed it. Exod 20:11
 
Try this for size

"While it is true that Rome is west of Jerusalemthe motif being imputed into Revelation 16 is parallel to when Babylon was destroyed by the Persians. ThePersian king Cyrus cyphoned water from the Euphrates and was able to seize Babylon (Isaiah44:27-28). Interestingly, Babylon is acircumlocution for Jerusalemthroughout the book of Revelation. Revelation 17 begins to define Babylon calling it "mystery Babylon"thereby alerting us to the non-literal use of the name Babylon. Chapter 18 then centers in on this"mystery Babylon"and closes with the statement that "in her was found the blood of prophetsand of saints" (18:24). This closing statement closely parallels ourMaster's own words in Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets and stonesthose sent to her!" Paul also makes a similar statement in 1 Thessalonians2:15 stating that the Jews in Judea had"both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out."Clearly John has Jerusalem as the "mystery Babylon" and the Romans posing as a sort ofcontemporary Persian Empire. By extension, inking Cyrus' conquerring of Babylon Isaiah titles him as the Lord's Messiah(45:1). Likewise, it was Jesus who would ultimately conquer this Neo-BabylonianJerusalem as stated in the Septuagint of Daniel 9:26 "And after thesixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgmentin him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that iscoming.

Finally, if the direction ofEast is to be taken literally then we must notice that Titus with the 10th and5th legions had gained Eastern access to Jerusalemby overtaking Jerichoin the year 68. There they camped for the winters. In the end it was the 10thlegion that came to the Mount of Olives (East of Jerusalem) and began tocatapult stones weighing 1 talent just as mentioned regarding the Babylon in Revelation16:19-21. I really hope this was clear and helped in this thread. Joseph Eidsvik
E

Was Titus destroyed by the Coming of The Lord Jesus?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Did this happen in 70 AD?

JLB
 
Wondering JLB if you would ever take the time .. a borning day when ya got no nothen to do... and read the scripture ( for lack of better words) from my time table... Thinking on a couple points... How long was the earthly ministery of the Prince of Peace ... What is the time in years from The Crucifixion/Resurrection to the destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD.....Why did Jesus say or what did He mean when He said
Mat_16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Did God ever destroy Jerusalem with a warning? the ol hey guys this is coming ...

The Gospel has gone out around the globe... Does this passage only apply to those physically living in the area?
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Why when the Scripture clearly says point blank
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Why do we put so much of what is says to antichrist which is never mentioned in The Revelation....

I am not being a smart allick asking i am asking because these are some of the question i asked of myself and others15-20 years ago...
I am not asking you to post any answers just give it some thought... just in your own head...

Having had my head about where yours is i fully get why you think what you do... I am not looking for posted answers nor the return of the flash of questions ... Like it or not i am yoru sister in the Lord even if i am 999,000 years old :)
 
@ Reba

Not JLB,but I would simply call it Dual Prophecy

Many people find the subject of prophecy to be the most fascinating aspect of Bible study, and they show an intense interest in it. Some scour the newspapers, books, magazines and television and radio news for the latest tidbit that fulfills their favorite prophecies. Unfortunately, few understand the vital keys to understanding the prophecies of the Bible, and thus, many of them are wildly misunderstood.

One of these keys to understanding prophecy is the fact that most prophecy is dual in nature. Throughout the Bible, we see duality in many things. God made a material creation and a spiritual creation (Genesis 2:1-4). The first Adam was physical, and the second Adam, Christ, is spiritual (I Corinthians 15:45-47). The Old Covenant was based on physical descent and physical blessings and cursings. It was followed by the New Covenant, which is spiritual (Hebrews 8). At the first coming of Christ, He came in the weakness of flesh; when He comes again, He will be a powerful spirit Being.

A list of everything in the Bible that demonstrates duality would be a very long list, indeed. So it is with the prophecies, most of which consist of two predictions: a type and an antitype. The type, usually a relatively minor event in history, symbolizes a major, often end-time event that will occur later. The major event is the antitype.

A Source of Confusion
One of the best examples of a dual prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Many years ago, while studying this prophecy with the help of a commentary, I became very confused. At the time, neither I nor the author of the commentary understood the principle of duality. Thinking that this prophecy referred only to the destruction of Jerusalem, the commentator frankly admitted that he did not understand why Christ said that His coming would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29).

Today, we understand that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the second coming of Christ. We can see that He actually prophesied two events. Jerusalem's destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype.
This particular prophecy highlights how vital it is to understand the duality principle. Many early Christians did not understand that the Olivet Prophecy was dual and fully expected Christ to return after the destruction of Jerusalem. When He failed to appear, some were very disappointed and disillusioned. Some lost faith and stopped believing. This disappointment was a major factor in causing the church to fall into apostasy in the closing decades of the first century.

Failure to understand the duality of prophecy also played a role in the Jews' rejection of Christ. The Jews thought (and still think) the Messiah would come as a conquering, human king to restore Israel to its former wealth and power. This idea was based on the many prophecies in the Old Testament which are actually describing the second coming of Christ and His millennial reign. An understanding of this principle of duality, along with careful study of the many prophecies showing the suffering and death of the Messiah, may have prevented this tragic error.
The type often stops short of fulfilling the whole prophecy. Jesus pointed out a very clear example of this in Luke 4:16-21. On a Sabbath day in Nazareth shortly after He began His ministry, He publicly read from Isaiah 61:1-2, stopping abruptly after the first line in verse 2. He told the amazed audience, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." This portion of the prophecy was fulfilled, in type, during His earthly ministry. It will be completely fulfilled, as the antitype, throughout the whole world during His millennial reign. Had Jesus read any further, He would have spoken of events belonging exclusively to His second coming, so He did not claim to be fulfilling them. An astute Jew, upon hearing Christ's words, could have avoided the error that led them to reject and condemn Him to crucifixion.

Not All Prophecies
Not all prophecies are dual, however. God's predictions regarding the fate of ancient city-states such as Tyre, Sidon, Ashkelon and others do not appear to have an antitype. In general, it seems that God has chosen to use the duality principle in those prophecies which deal directly with His people Israel or with the church (spiritual Israel).
For example, ancient Babylon is one of the ancient city-states that does have an antitype. Under its greatest king, Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon conquered Judah and took the Jews into captivity between 604-585 BC (II Kings 24-25). In the New Testament, Babylon becomes a type of this world's society which persecutes God's church (Revelation 18:21-24), and its fate will be the same as that of ancient Babylon: a heap of ruins, never to be raised again (Isaiah 13:19-22).

The principle of duality in prophecy is especially important to God's church today. Many prophecies in the New Testament predicted the great apostasy which took place in the church toward the end of the first century (Acts 20:29; II Thessalonians 2:3-12; II Timothy 3:1-8; 4:3-4; Jude 3-4). All of these prophecies are dual. The falling away from the revealed truth of God that occurred in the first century is a type of what is happening today in the church. We are witnessing some of these prophecies being fulfilled! Duality in prophecy is being demonstrated in our lifetimes before our very eyes!

For this reason, we must be keenly aware of this important principle of understanding God's Word. We must be constantly on our guard, watching prophesied world events, as well as those unfolding in the church, lest we be caught unawares. Listen to the urgent warning that Jesus Christ gave to all of us who are living in the end time:

Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning—lest, coming suddenly, He find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch! (Mark 13:35-37)
 
Wondering JLB if you would ever take the time .. a borning day when ya got no nothen to do... and read the scripture ( for lack of better words) from my time table... Thinking on a couple points... How long was the earthly ministery of the Prince of Peace ... What is the time in years from The Crucifixion/Resurrection to the destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD.....Why did Jesus say or what did He mean when He said
Mat_16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Did God ever destroy Jerusalem with a warning? the ol hey guys this is coming ...

The Gospel has gone out around the globe... Does this passage only apply to those physically living in the area?
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Why when the Scripture clearly says point blank
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Why do we put so much of what is says to antichrist which is never mentioned in The Revelation....

I am not being a smart allick asking i am asking because these are some of the question i asked of myself and others15-20 years ago...
I am not asking you to post any answers just give it some thought... just in your own head...

Having had my head about where yours is i fully get why you think what you do... I am not looking for posted answers nor the return of the flash of questions ... Like it or not i am yoru sister in the Lord even if i am 999,000 years old :)


You can ask yourself a lot of questions, like the ones above, or have your considered just allowing this irrefutable foundational scripture to be a foundation in which to build a doctrine of truth upon.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Jesus will return once, at the end of the age to Gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.

The last day to be exact.

When he does, here are a few of the things that will take place:

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

or this one -

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:1-7

And this one -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


You see Reba, the word of God teaches us He has come once and he will appear a second time.


Now if you believe He came a second time in 70 AD, and the Resurrection has already taken place, then you don't believe what the bible teaches.

You believe something else.

He will appear a second time.

On the last Day.


JLB
 
Ecclesiastes 1:8 "All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing."


"Labor" in the text is "weariness. The labors, or weariness of the societies that flesh man hears and sees, man never quite understands. Anytime you get to the point that you know everything in this flesh body, you are just kidding yourself.


Ecclesiastes 1:9

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."


Solomon, with the guidance of the Spirit of God, is telling you that those things that have happened before, will happen again. It is important that you understand this. There is no new idea or thing that can happen to man that has not already happened to man. Remember that "under the sun" in in reference to "this flesh body of man".

This point helps us understand the Word of God, and the types that the prophets of old give us in their writings. Paul told us in I Corinthians 10:11; "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

"Ends of the world", means the ends of this earth age, or dispensation where man lives in his flesh body. Paul told us that all those things that were written by the prophets of man's actions, and what happened to them when they either violated God's law, or kept God's law were examples to us, for there is no new thing that will happen to flesh man, that has not already happened to others in the past. We are to study God's Word, and by our understanding of His Word, we can have the peace of mind that comes with God's faithfulness to His Word.

There is nothing new under the sun, even to the point of what happens at the end of this earth age, is a copy of what happened at the end of the first earth age. God has detailed out for us in His Word all events that will take place, right up to His second coming at the sounding of the seventh and final trumpet. He has name the signs, and given us examples even of the one world system that is coming upon us now, and will rule the minds of all mankind very shortly, all that is, except God's elect who know the truths, and will not be deceived.
 
I was hopping JLB but i see you will not ... I spent 40 some years in your line of thinking... it is not new to me. I wont bug you again for a long time.... :)
 

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