religion in school

[platos_cave]

Gabriel, this is all done in the name of Political Correctness. Right now it is Politically correct to promote Islamic cultures because they are seen as lesser than western societies. Since they are lesser, we need to promote them so they feel equal. Islam has become the charity case of many people for some reason or another.

I don't see anything wrong with allowing children to observe their individual worship practices as long as it doesn't conflict with the school schedule or disrupt class-time. If any person of any religion doesn't think that a public school jives with their personal religious values, then private schools exist which can accomodate them, don't they?

Just wait until that little guy decides to strab on a bomb and come to school...

I'm pretty sure being as accommodating and loving as you can with another person will make them less likely to kill you, not more likely. It's also this kind of stereotyping and bigotry that portrays all Muslims as hateful terrorists that progresses issues and makes them volatile situations.

I don't agree with the Muslim religion and probably 90% of its teachings, but I'm certainly not goin to cover everyone with the same blanket and judge them based on the actions of the lunatic-fringe.

The Muslim is the New Communist.

 

[Blazin Bones]

What school says that a christian student can not pray?

First, I don't recall specifying just Christian Students. However, I know from my time of leading the Christian Fellowship club in my high school that pray groups and the faith club itself recieved a great deal of opposition from the Student Activities Director. This particular person also attempt to censor things like Agnus Die, Requiem's and Handle's Hallelujah chorus because they contained Christian references, when the elementary school was more than welcome to sing a song about Ramadan.

When I wanted to quote a passage from Colosians as my Senior quote, I had to write my principal citing my legal write to do so and suuggest I was not afraid of taking legal actions before the quote was admitted.

Our faith club was not permitted to announce meeting over the loud speaker for a while either, until I brought up the fact that schools are REQUIRED to allow and give equal right and standing to all clubs religious or not.

As for prayer, teachers were not permitted to join us in prayer because they "were not permitted to influence a student faith." That is unless the teacher is promoting an atheistic idea. Look at history books, many of the events of history were interpreted through the eyes of Christianity, and yet often times, any Christian elemnt of history is removed.

I know first hand that Christian students get bullied if they do not know and defend their rights.

 

[Blazin Bones]

I don't see anything wrong with allowing children to observe their individual worship practices as long as it doesn't conflict with the school schedule or disrupt class-time. If any person of any religion doesn't think that a public school jives with their personal religious values, then private schools exist which can accomodate them, don't they?

That's just it Cave, there are schools which make special allowances for ONLY Muslim students. This is all but direct government promotion of a religion. There is no reason Christian students should be forced into private schools because Public schools treat them as second class.

I'm pretty sure being as accommodating and loving as you can with another person will make them less likely to kill you, not more likely. It's also this kind of stereotyping and bigotry that portrays all Muslims as hateful terrorists that progresses issues and makes them volatile situations.

I don't agree with the Muslim religion and probably 90% of its teachings, but I'm certainly not goin to cover everyone with the same blanket and judge them based on the actions of the lunatic-fringe.

The Muslim is the New Communist.

I do not recall calling out all muslim children. However, just one child of ONE muslim extremist blowing themself up would be too many. You can dismiss the idea as being soley motivated by anti-muslim propoganda, but I'm just saying, do not be at all surprised when it happens.

I know several muslims, a few of which are good friends. The truth is, however, that if a Muslim does not hate infidels, they are not a good Muslim. I'm pretty sure Gabriel would back up that claim.

 

[Gabe]

if what you say is happening in other schools then it sounds to me like some teachers are picking on the Christian faith within US schools, regardless of the law because they think that they can get away with it without being labeled as prejudice or without the chance of violent reprisals and the general population are turning a blind eye to their illigal actions.

The same sort of thing is happening in the music industry. Many Metal bands claim that their anti-Christian lyrics and imagery are only for shock value and not due to any personal prejudices but ignore the fact that many nowerdays consider Metal and anti-Christianity to go hand-in-hand and fail to find it very 'shocking'. A more effective way to attract attention would be to have anti-Jewish or anti-islamic lyrics and imagery, after all, they do worship the 'same' God. But we cant have that because it would be anti-Semetic and islamaphobic, which of course is very 'different' to being anti-Christian and would get them thrown off the label and be condemned by the general public as bigoted losers.

 

[Gabe]

I know several muslims, a few of which are good friends. The truth is, however, that if a Muslim does not hate infidels, they are not a good Muslim. I'm pretty sure Gabriel would back up that claim.

Yes I would and I don't do this lightly. My mother (who I love more than any women) is a Muslim, so are most of my brothers, my uncles, aunts, cousins etc and so was I for 21 years.

If you follow Mohammed and the teachings in the Quran then you must hate the infidels, kafirs are worthless and inferior, Jihad is compulsory and nothing must be allowed to stand in the way of the dominance of Islam. Muslims will claim that the teachings are being taken out of context, it was meant as spiritual blah blah blah. But no amount of word twisting would convince an unbiased individual who actually takes time-out to read the Quran and hadiths that this is the case. Before labelling people as Islamaphobes, people should read the Islamic scriptures for themselves and realise not all people who criticize or are fearful of Islam are anti-Muslim, they are anti-evil. I've heard people say 'then what about the Bible? It says to stone adulteresses and kill disobedient sons etc' what these individuals choose to ignore is the fact that those laws were given to the ancient Jews (but don't mention that because it may be considered anti-Semitic) and Christian morals and views are based on the teachings of Christ. Muslims however, still follow the commands in the Quran because that is what their scriptures require of them and if they do not follow it then they are bad examples of Islam and I would consider them nominal Muslims and not moderate Muslims.

 

[Vic C.]

I know first hand that Christian students get bullied if they do not know and defend their rights.

if what you say is happening in other schools then it sounds to me like some teachers are picking on the Christian faith within US schools, regardless of the law because they think that they can get away with it without being labeled as prejudice or without the chance of violent reprisals and the general population are turning a blind eye to their illegal actions....

Bingo! That is why we need to be well informed. The adversary will prey on that weakness.

God says His people may perish for lack of knowledge. (yes, out of context, but the moral teaching of Hosea 4:6 still is applicable)

 

[platos_cave]

That's just it Cave, there are schools which make special allowances for ONLY Muslim students. This is all but direct government promotion of a religion. There is no reason Christian students should be forced into private schools because Public schools treat them as second class.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if Muslims want to have their prayer twice a day without inconveniencing the public school system, they should go to a private Muslim school which accounts for those religious practices, as well as allowing ceremonial daggers and segregating women and men, etc.

I'm also saying that if Christians want to have nativities and overtly Christian displays, then they can go to a private school.

It's either that or disrupt the whole school system by having to accomodate every religion. It's just better if we have a secularized school in which nobody is inconvenienced or promoted. Wouldn't you agree?

I do not recall calling out all muslim children. However, just one child of ONE muslim extremist blowing themself up would be too many. You can dismiss the idea as being soley motivated by anti-muslim propoganda, but I'm just saying, do not be at all surprised when it happens.

I wont be, but I also wont be condemning Islam for the actions of a person who abuses his religion for his own selfish gain.

I know several muslims, a few of which are good friends. The truth is, however, that if a Muslim does not hate infidels, they are not a good Muslim. I'm pretty sure Gabriel would back up that claim.

Pretty sure that just as non-Christians are accused of misrepresenting verses of the Bible and taking them out of context, Christians can be guilty of the same thing in regards to Islam.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

What school says that a christian student can not pray?

First, I don't recall specifying just Christian Students. However, I know from my time of leading the Christian Fellowship club in my high school that pray groups and the faith club itself recieved a great deal of opposition from the Student Activities Director. This particular person also attempt to censor things like Agnus Die, Requiem's and Handle's Hallelujah chorus because they contained Christian references, when the elementary school was more than welcome to sing a song about Ramadan.

When I wanted to quote a passage from Colosians as my Senior quote, I had to write my principal citing my legal write to do so and suuggest I was not afraid of taking legal actions before the quote was admitted.

Our faith club was not permitted to announce meeting over the loud speaker for a while either, until I brought up the fact that schools are REQUIRED to allow and give equal right and standing to all clubs religious or not.

As for prayer, teachers were not permitted to join us in prayer because they "were not permitted to influence a student faith." That is unless the teacher is promoting an atheistic idea. Look at history books, many of the events of history were interpreted through the eyes of Christianity, and yet often times, any Christian elemnt of history is removed.

I know first hand that Christian students get bullied if they do not know and defend their rights.

Wow I did not know realize that some schools were like that. In my area, Christianity is a very large part of the community and those things would not happen.

I guess it mainly is due in part to the community the school is based in.

That is great you took a stand for your personal right to express your faith.

 

[Gabe]

[quote="Blazin Bones":3tdlgqct]
I know several muslims, a few of which are good friends. The truth is, however, that if a Muslim does not hate infidels, they are not a good Muslim. I'm pretty sure Gabriel would back up that claim.

Pretty sure that just as non-Christians are accused of misrepresenting verses of the Bible and taking them out of context, Christians can be guilty of the same thing in regards to Islam.[/quote:3tdlgqct][/quote]

I addressed this issue in my previous post but without repeating it entirely i'll just say that before people accuse ANYONE of misrepresenting verses or taking them out of context, they should read the entire scripture themselves and make up their own minds or they are unequiped to comment either way. My entire family is almost solely made up of practicing muslims (which would explain why most of them have disowned me) and when reading the quran and hadiths (until recently) I HAVE BEEN READING THEM THROUGH MUSLIM EYES.

 

[platos_cave]

My entire family is almost solely made up of practicing muslims (which would explain why most of them have disowned me) and when reading the quran and hadiths (until recently) I HAVE BEEN READING THEM THROUGH MUSLIM EYES.

Ok, but I know plenty of deconverted Christians who's parents have disowned them as well...so it's not necessarily the religions themselves.

 

[Gabe]

[quote="Gabriel Ali":1xxmqfkb]My entire family is almost solely made up of practicing muslims (which would explain why most of them have disowned me) and when reading the Quran and hadiths (until recently) I HAVE BEEN READING THEM THROUGH MUSLIM EYES.

Ok, but I know plenty of deconverted Christians who's parents have disowned them as well...so it's not necessarily the religions themselves.[/quote:1xxmqfkb]

The difference being that in Islamic countries (and sometime even here in the west) deconverted Muslims are often put to death. This would not be the case if Islamic scripture did not advocate this.

I have in the past had several death threats from Muslims I have grown up with, i have also been kicked, punched, slapped, been spat on and have been called many things which i am not allowed to post in this forum. I no longer live in that area which has a Muslim majority. Where i live now is largely secular and Christian. The odd bit of racism aimed towards me is nothing when compared to how my own race treated me.

 

[platos_cave]

The difference being that in Islamic countries (and sometime even here in the west) deconverted Muslims are often put to death. This would not be the case if Islamic scripture did not advocate this.

Well I have studied the Quran and I have discussed with practicing Muslims and I have not seen any commands to put to death infidels, Gabriel. I'm not discounting your experiences, only pointing out that it's not representative of all Muslim behaviour and thought.

We can surely point out verses in the Bible which advocate death and hatred, but I can 100% guarantee that there will be a lot of people who don't agree that my interpretation of Scripture is a proper one. I'm also sure to find people who DO agree that the interpretation of Scripture is a proper one. Even though you can claim that those people are misguided, it doesn't change the fact that there ARE different interpretations of commandments from both religions.

I have in the past had several death threats from Muslims I have grown up with, i have also been kicked, punched, slapped, been spat on and have been called many things which i am not allowed to post in this forum. I no longer live in that area which has a Muslim majority. Where i live now is largely secular and Christian. The odd bit of racism aimed towards me is nothing when compared to how my own race treated me.

I can also point out atheists and former Christians who have received the same treatment. The only thing worse than someone who's different would be someone who used to think the same as you and then changes.

 

[Gabe]

I have never denied that there are Muslims out there who think and behave differently or that someone can interpret any given text differently to the next person,I think this is one of the reasons why people should read the text for themselves but to state that nowhere in the Quran does it give the command to kill infidels is wrong and I think you would have some difficulty in finding any Muslim who would agree with this. They may interpret the words differently but the words are most definitely there, whether you like it or not.

In the UK there is very little stigma attached to someone leaving Christianity, its a non-event but I realise it may be different in America. What happened to me happened to me in the UK and is very different to what could or would have happened to me if I was in my country of origin.

If anyone is going to compare the actions of Christians and Muslims then they should do it as a whole and not just compare isolated incidents.

Look at pre-dominantly Christian countries like America and Britain and the lives of non-Christians living there, then take a look at pre-dominantly Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Algeria and Bangladesh and do the same. If you still find the actions of Christians and Muslims to be one in the same then you are insane. In most of these Islamic countries it is illegal to carry Bibles or practice Christianity. If you are found out to be anything other than Muslim then you can face many years in jail and in some cases face the death penalty for leaving. Can you honestly give me a Christian equivalent? Or how about the Islamic countries that do not allow the building of churches or any buildings used for worship other than Islamic mosques. In many of these countries the laws differentiate between Muslims and non-Muslims and treat their civilians accordingly while here in the UK and in the US it is the total opposite: they have laws in place which specificity prevent people from treating minorities differently. The same goes for laws regarding the treatment of women, I could go on for hours but you would be hard-pressed to find any comparable with the laws of a Christian majority country.

 

[platos_cave]

i have never denied that there are muslims out there who think and behave differently or that someone can interprate any given text differently to the next person,i think this is one of the reasons why people should read the text for themselves but to state that nowhere in the quran does it give the command to kill infidels is wrong and i think you would have some difficulty in finding any muslim who would agree with this. They may interpit the words differently but the words are most definitely there, wether you like it or not.

Well then by all means present those words in the context in which they are given.

If anyone is going to compare the actions of Christians and Muslims then they should do it as a whole and not just compare isolated incidents.

Yes, let's look at it as a whole. So let's start by looking at the supposed history displayed in the Old Testament and how people of other religions were treated (give you a big guess, it wasn't loving ones neighbour). Then let's look at Christian history through it's early inception and the Middle Ages, including all the Inquisitions and Crusades. All the forced conversions and abuse that people suffered at the hands of Christians, all the oppression and imperialistic mindsets, air of superiority and disdain of progress and advancement. Right up to today. In which intolerance and bigotry are the norms for a number of Christians (not saying all).

Certainly we can compare through the ages and through modern times Islam and Christianity, but that's not really the point, now is it?

We can look at the actions of countries in which the separation of church and state are not in effect such as in Saudi Arabia, etc. In which they have a state religion in which religious values are imposed upon other people.

But you could look in the history of pretty much any country which did not have a separation of church and state clause in which Christianity was the predominant religion and find the same kind of tyranny!

 

[Gabe]

I would rather not go down that road. I am willing to provide you with quotes used by modern-day 'extremist' as instructions on how to deal with infidels and on how to deal with apostates if I must. I have neither the patience nor the will to do an in-depth Quran study, and would prefer to leave it up to anyone who is interested in this matter or who may think me a liar to purchase a Quran (or download a copy of the net) and read.

Regardless of what your personal feelings or opinions of Christians and Christianity in general may or may not be, I consider honesty to be one of the most important Christian morals there is and whenever discussing Islam I discuss it with honesty through my knowledge of the Quran and my first-hand experiences within an Islamic family and community and my knowledge of Muslim attitudes and opinions expressed by me and other Muslims whether it be in attendance at a mosque or at a social gathering.

I will and have defended many faiths if and when I feel they have been attacked unjustly, including Satanism and Atheism (which I realise is an unbelief) the difference being that I personally do not see this happening to Islam, I see that it is politically correct to do the complete opposite and anyone who thinks the teachings in the Quran are a threat, are automatically labelled as bigots.

As for this debate, we have taken it way off-topic, starting with religion in school, then Islam in schools, then Islam and its treatment of infidels, then comparing present-day Islam with present-day Christianity and now comparing Christian history.

I feel we have both made our points and opinions very clear and people can read further into the topic of the Crusades and the Islamic Jihad if they so please.

 

[Free]

Well I have studied the Quran

And if it wasn't in Arabic the argument can be made that you didn't, and can't, fully understand what was written.

Yes, let's look at it as a whole.

Then look at it as a whole. Your post shows only a part of the whole and also shows your very own bigotry and intolerance towards Christianity.


Anyway, it is off topic. I just wanted to point out these problems.

 

[Blazin Bones]

I do not recall calling out all muslim children. However, just one child of ONE muslim extremist blowing themself up would be too many. You can dismiss the idea as being soley motivated by anti-muslim propoganda, but I'm just saying, do not be at all surprised when it happens.

I wont be, but I also wont be condemning Islam for the actions of a person who abuses his religion for his own selfish gain.

That's pretty funny, because I hear all the time for Non-Believers online that Christian are hypocrits because of the attrocities of the Crusades, or because we have some "Christians" who decide it's okay to blow up abortion clinics. If the actions of over 500 years ago is enough to call Christians hypocrits, then the suicide bombings and pictures of children with bombs from the last year should be good enough to label Islam as a Violent religion.

I would also like to remind you, Plato that Gabriel has LIVED as a muslim, where as you and I have only Studied their holy texts. I'm pretty sure any jury would take him for their Islamic expert over you and I.

 

[platos_cave]

And if it wasn't in Arabic the argument can be made that you didn't, and can't, fully understand what was written.

Can you or even 99% of Christians read Hebrew or even Greek?

Then look at it as a whole. Your post shows only a part of the whole and also shows your very own bigotry and intolerance towards Christianity.

No it doesn't, it's pointing out the inconsistent viewpoint from Gabriel.

 

[platos_cave]

That's pretty funny, because I hear all the time for Non-Believers online that Christian are hypocrits because of the attrocities of the Crusades, or because we have some "Christians" who decide it's okay to blow up abortion clinics. If the actions of over 500 years ago is enough to call Christians hypocrits, then the suicide bombings and pictures of children with bombs from the last year should be good enough to label Islam as a Violent religion.

That's nice, they're just as wrong. Would YOU appreciate having the label of adhering to a violent religion when clearly you and most of the Christians on here would not agree with the actions of the violent actions of some Christians in the past or even now? I doubt it. You would probably resent it because it's not true.

I would also like to remind you, Plato that Gabriel has LIVED as a muslim, where as you and I have only Studied their holy texts. I'm pretty sure any jury would take him for their Islamic expert over you and I.

Maybe, but I doubt you wouldn't be hard pressed to find practicing Muslims who disagree with the actions of Gabriel's family or with Gabriel's opinions regarding Islam.

 

[Blazin Bones]

That's nice, they're just as wrong. Would YOU appreciate having the label of adhering to a violent religion when clearly you and most of the Christians on here would not agree with the actions of the violent actions of some Christians in the past or even now? I doubt it. You would probably resent it because it's not true.

Your right. However, for the very fact that it is not true of the majority of Christians, it is true for the majority of Muslims. Look at the Middle East and all the times Christians are attacked without cause? Did you know that Christian owned business are regularly burned in some Muslim Countries? When was the last time anyone saw a Christian burn down a Muslim business in the USA?

Maybe, but I doubt you wouldn't be hard pressed to find practicing Muslims who disagree with the actions of Gabriel's family or with Gabriel's opinions regarding Islam.

Just maybe? What do you and I know about the Haaj or what do we know about praying five times daily? What do you and I know about how to raise a muslim Child? Gabriel is a far more trust worthy source than you or I and you know it.

Look at it this way. Suppose someone had been a fire fighter in the North Eastern USA for 20 years. This person then decides to move to California and switches fire companies. Now suppose one of the wild fires California is known for is threatening a town. Who would most people choose to take advice from, a fire fighter of 20 years who may be new to California but not fires, or someone who's only read a manual on how to contain a fire?

Sure, they'd go to a native Californian fire fighter if they could, but until that option becomes available, do you really think they'd not look towards the experienced fire fighter?