Restoration Theology

[RBDERRICK]

Many times the Lord put away His own people for transgression, and called upon them to repent and return unto Him with a whole heart.

Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

If God's people transgress against Him, they are put way with the sinners of the world, and dealt with the same for their iniquities.

I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

However, it is not a full end with His rebellious children, but the Lord will wholly restore the children of disobedience to Himself, if they repent to repent:

But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.

With the resurrection of Jesus Christ, God calls upon all men everywhere to repent and come unto Him with a whole heart. And it remains the same for His people today, if we transgress against Him:

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

All men are created in the image of God as children from the womb and lightened by Christ. All men have sinned and gone astray from their Creator after the god of this world.

And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Now, any man repenting of sinning to become newborn of Christ, is a soul created in His image returning to the Lord and God that made us.

With a whole new heart of Christ we are commanded now to sin not, as an obedient child from the womb. But if we do transgress, as with God's longsuffering mercy to His people of old, so today we can repent and return again to be restored unto Himself.

But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

The gospel of reconciliation is now for all men everywhere, and His deliverance remains one of restoration, to them that repent and return unto Him again.

God's longsuffering mercy is ready to reconcile and restore the repented soul unto Himself; however, the Lord is not mocked with wilfull temptation to restore forever.

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 

[Terraphim]

Peace be upon your house. NKJV

if they repent to repent

Repentance is a gift of God.
Act_5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Repentance requires our participation.
Rom_2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Repentance is a return to God.
Heb_11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Deu 30:1 "Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you,
Deu 30:2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deu 30:3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you.
2Ch_30:9 For if you return to the LORD, your brethren and your children will be treated with compassion by those who lead them captive, so that they may come back to this land; for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn His face from you if you return to Him."
Psa 90:3 You turn man to destruction, And say, "Return, O children of men."

The return is by faith in God, by the Rock of Gilgal, that's the stone of (re)turning; whether He is unknown or known, in persona or personal, hidden or manifest.
Jos 5:7 Then Joshua circumcised their sons whom He raised up in their place; for they were uncircumcised, because they had not been circumcised on the way.
Jos 5:8 So it was, when they had finished circumcising all the people, that they stayed in their places in the camp till they were healed.
Jos 5:9 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "This day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you." Therefore the name of the place is called Gilgal to this day.
Mat_28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.

And so, by repentance, and returning, and spiritual regeneration, we are restored, as members of the Two Witnesses.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
YouTube prayer
Keith Green song, nice rendition.

Isa 58:5 Is it a fast that I have chosen, A day for a man to afflict his soul? Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush, And to spread out sackcloth and ashes? Would you call this a fast, And an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 "Is this not the fast that I have chosen: To loose the bonds of wickedness, To undo the heavy burdens, To let the oppressed go free, And that you break every yoke? ...
Isa 58:12 Those from among you Shall build the old waste places; You shall raise up the foundations of many generations; And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach, The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.
The restoration is of one's relationship with God, first. God then restores the believer. Restored believers desire to help the laborers in the field. True hearts offering true doctrine build the true Church.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Peace be upon your house. NKJV

Repentance is a gift of God.
Act_5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Repentance requires our participation.
Rom_2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Repentance is a return to God.
Heb_11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Deu 30:1 "Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you,
Deu 30:2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deu 30:3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you.
2Ch_30:9 For if you return to the LORD, your brethren and your children will be treated with compassion by those who lead them captive, so that they may come back to this land; for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn His face from you if you return to Him."
Psa 90:3 You turn man to destruction, And say, "Return, O children of men."

The return is by faith in God, by the Rock of Gilgal, that's the stone of (re)turning; whether He is unknown or known, in persona or personal, hidden or manifest.
Jos 5:7 Then Joshua circumcised their sons whom He raised up in their place; for they were uncircumcised, because they had not been circumcised on the way.
Jos 5:8 So it was, when they had finished circumcising all the people, that they stayed in their places in the camp till they were healed.
Jos 5:9 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "This day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you." Therefore the name of the place is called Gilgal to this day.
Mat_28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.

And so, by repentance, and returning, and spiritual regeneration, we are restored, as members of the Two Witnesses.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
YouTube prayer
Keith Green song, nice rendition.

Isa 58:5 Is it a fast that I have chosen, A day for a man to afflict his soul? Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush, And to spread out sackcloth and ashes? Would you call this a fast, And an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 "Is this not the fast that I have chosen: To loose the bonds of wickedness, To undo the heavy burdens, To let the oppressed go free, And that you break every yoke? ...
Isa 58:12 Those from among you Shall build the old waste places; You shall raise up the foundations of many generations; And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach, The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.
The restoration is of one's relationship with God, first. God then restores the believer. Restored believers desire to help the laborers in the field. True hearts offering true doctrine build the true Church.

Be blessed, be well.

Amen. I do love it when people just teach what the Bible plainly says, rather than play games with it. Bless you too.

 

[RBDERRICK]

All those transgressing against the Lord, must repent to come to Him for forgivness and reconciliation to God.

That especially includes His own children that depart from Him.

And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the LORD, and serve him only.
Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.

But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
Only those of His own household that depart from the Father, can return to Him.

And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

And he arose, and came to his father.

Disobedient unbelieversivers can repent and come to the lord, but only the rebellious believers can repent and return to Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Repentance requires our participation.
Rom_2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

This is good proof, that it is up to us to repent, not God who have never sinned.

Thanks.

Repentance is a return to God.

Once again, it's the same command God has ever made to people who sin against Him, and separate themselves from Him. We must repent to return to Him, and be reconciled by the blood of His Son.

Just believing Jesus' died for us, does not mean He has reconciled us to God.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Thanks again.

Heb_11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Deu 30:1 "Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you,
Deu 30:2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deu 30:3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you.
2Ch_30:9 For if you return to the LORD, your brethren and your children will be treated with compassion by those who lead them captive, so that they may come back to this land; for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn His face from you if you return to Him."
Psa 90:3 You turn man to destruction, And say, "Return, O children of men."

The return is by faith in God, by the Rock of Gilgal, that's the stone of (re)turning; whether He is unknown or known, in persona or personal, hidden or manifest.
Jos 5:7 Then Joshua circumcised their sons whom He raised up in their place; for they were uncircumcised, because they had not been circumcised on the way.
Jos 5:8 So it was, when they had finished circumcising all the people, that they stayed in their places in the camp till they were healed.
Jos 5:9 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "This day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you." Therefore the name of the place is called Gilgal to this day.
Mat_28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.

And so, by repentance, and returning, and spiritual regeneration, we are restored, as members of the Two Witnesses.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
YouTube prayer
Keith Green song, nice rendition.

Isa 58:5 Is it a fast that I have chosen, A day for a man to afflict his soul? Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush, And to spread out sackcloth and ashes? Would you call this a fast, And an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 "Is this not the fast that I have chosen: To loose the bonds of wickedness, To undo the heavy burdens, To let the oppressed go free, And that you break every yoke? ...
Isa 58:12 Those from among you Shall build the old waste places; You shall raise up the foundations of many generations; And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach, The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.
The restoration is of one's relationship with God, first. God then restores the believer. Restored believers desire to help the laborers in the field. True hearts offering true doctrine build the true Church.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings RBDERRICK,

All men are created in the image of God as children from the womb and lightened by Christ.

Your concepts of repentance are valid, but I am very uncertain concerning your statement above. Also some of your restoration passages apply to believers who have fallen away from a previous position of faithfulness and fellowship with God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RBDERRICK]

Greetings RBDERRICK,

Your concepts of repentance are valid, but I am very uncertain concerning your statement above.

I apologize. Sometimes I forget to include verses for saying such things.

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Niether God nor Paul are taking a cue from a pagan poet, but rather God is having Paul quote a truism, and confirming it is truth of God.

All people are the children of God from birth by creation in His image. However, since all have sinned against God after the womb, then all have made themselves children of the devil on earth.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Jesus Christ is the Maker of all things, including babes in the woman, and specifically lightens all people born into the world with His true light of desire to know and please God.

It is only by sinning, that people choose the darkness rather than the light.

The truth is that no babe in the womb is made by Christ with sin, and no child of God coming into the world is darkened by Christ to disobey God. The devil has no say in the making, conceiving, and birth of any person on earth. Only if we submit to the devil, can he help us to make ourselves his children, rather than God's.

And so: All men are created in the image of God as children from the womb and lightened by Christ.

This is why being born again children of God is being reconciled to God. By the lie of being born sinners and children of the devil, it would not be reconciliation to God, but first time 'conciliation'.

Also, being born again is as newborn babes, which confirms the purity of every babe's spirit and body coming into the world.

Jesus Christ came as a babe into the world, with the same exact flesh and blood of all men and women. The seed of Adam by Abraham and David, was in the flesh of Jesus by the womb of Mary, who was born of the household of David.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Also some of your restoration passages apply to believers who have fallen away from a previous position of faithfulness and fellowship with God.

True. Whether by an act of transgression and rebellion against God, or by someone returning to sins and trespasses without repentance.

Reprobation from God is only when God gives up on a bastardized son. He did not give up on the prodigal, but He has given up on others that go into deep idolatry of their own worship, by forsaking the worship of the only true God and Christ Jesus.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks. If you see want to add anything, or see any error in this, then I'd be glad to hear it.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RBDERRICK,

All people are the children of God from birth by creation in His image.

You seem to suggest that each baby born is almost perfect, as if they were perfect children from Adam and Eve BEFORE they sinned. Yes, man is made in the image of God in general, but as each generation corrupts itself, then many children are born limited in health and mental capacity. Like produces like in most instances.

Jesus was made of our nature, flesh and blood, mortal, and inheriting the lusts of the flesh from fallen Adam and Eve, but he was a specially prepared vessel, with greater capacity to fulfill the great work of salvation and he never sinned, but overcame the flesh. His mother was Mary and the child conceived by God His Father through the power of the Holy Spirit. His forbears were Abraham and David, and this could also be a factor in his character.

Jesus Christ is the Maker of all things, including babes in the woman, and specifically lightens all people born into the world with His true light of desire to know and please God.

This is part of your rhetoric, but most children do not seek God from an early age, but need to be gradually taught.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Iconoclast]

All people are the children of God from birth by creation in His image.

No. They are conceived in sin, children of wrath eph2:3

However, since all have sinned against God after the womb,

All sinned in Adam at conception psa51:3

then all have made themselves children of the devil on earth.

They are born in rebellion to God.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Jesus Christ is the Maker of all things, including babes in the woman, and specifically lightens all people born into the world with His true light of desire to know and please God.

Not true

It is only by sinning, that people choose the darkness rather than the light.

wrong

The truth is that no babe in the womb is made by Christ with sin,

You are directly contradicting scripture.,

and no child of God coming into the world is darkened by Christ to disobey God.

They died in Adam already. God does not make them sinners,

The devil has no say in the making, conceiving, and birth of any person on earth. Only if we submit to the devil, can he help us to make ourselves his children, rather than God's.

You are making things up. This is not in the bible.

And so: All men are created in the image of God as children from the womb and lightened by Christ.

This is why being born again children of God is being reconciled to God. By the lie of being born sinners and children of the devil, it would not be reconciliation to God, but first time 'conciliation'.

This is pure fiction.

Also, being born again is as newborn babes, which confirms the purity of every babe's spirit and body coming into the world.

More fiction.

Jesus Christ came as a babe into the world, with the same exact flesh and blood of all men and women. The seed of Adam by Abraham and David, was in the flesh of Jesus by the womb of Mary, who was born of the household of David.

Jesus does not have the exact flesh and blood of all people, that is why the virgin birth was necessary.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

True. Whether by an act of transgression and rebellion against God, or by someone returning to sins and trespasses without repentance.

Reprobation from God is only when God gives up on a bastardized son. He did not give up on the prodigal, but He has given up on others that go into deep idolatry of their own worship, by forsaking the worship of the only true God and Christ Jesus.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Thanks. If you see want to add anything, or see any error in this, then I'd be glad to hear it.

You cannot just string verses together and invent a new meaning.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Iconclast,

Jesus does not have the exact flesh and blood of all people, that is why the virgin birth was necessary.

I agree with some of the things you say, but I believe "sin" is sin, that is transgression of the Law, and "sin" is not inherited in our blood from Adam, or in our flesh. Jesus came in the same nature, the same flesh and blood, as us, in order to overcome sin and all it's effects:

Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The writer to the Hebrews could not add much more for emphasis, as he repeats essentially the same word a number of times.

Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I understand that the word "likeness" here is in the same sense as "sameness". And "sinful flesh" is better rendered "sin's flesh". There may be a subtle difference, in that in every other person, the same flesh has been governed by "Sin", "King Sin", a use of the figure of metonymy, but in Jesus' case his flesh was NEVER governed by "Sin", "King Sin", and Jesus never sinned.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RBDERRICK]

Greetings again RBDERRICK,

You seem to suggest that each baby born is almost perfect

Perfectly pure of heart and soul, if not whole of body.

No flesh itself is unclean, but only natural.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (Titus 1)

Yes, man is made in the image of God in general

I don't read God creating man and woman in His image, 'in general'.

He creates each specific soul and spirit of man, to be perfectly whole and clean without spot nor wrinkle. And all flesh on earth is made natural by Christ. If not perfectly whole and complete in limbs.

Jesus was made of our nature, flesh and blood, mortal, and inheriting the lusts of the flesh from fallen Adam and Eve,

Sin corrupts the soul and spirit, not the flesh and blood.

Sinning can do damage to the body and the life, but not make any flesh different in nature.

The lusts of the flesh read, the lusting for the flesh.

No tissues of flesh on earth lusts against the goodness of God.

Hunger and thirst of the flesh to live, is only natural. Too many people preach a nature theology, where the natural things have spirit in themselves to do good or evil, whether they be natural bodies or celestial. It's the pagan spiritism of demigods and gods.

but he was a specially prepared vessel, with greater capacity to fulfill the great work of salvation and he never sinned, but overcame the flesh.

You need to separate spirit from flesh, when speaking of sin and righteousness.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3)

Thirsting and hungering for righteousness has nothing to do with the flesh and blood tissue and plasma.

His mother was Mary and the child conceived by God His Father through the power of the Holy Spirit. His forbears were Abraham and David, and this could also be a factor in his character.

Not the seed of Abraham and David after the flesh, but the faith of Abraham and David after the Spirit.

Which they recieved from Christ before coming in the flesh.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3)

This is part of your rhetoric, but most children do not seek God from an early age, but need to be gradually taught.

This is your judgment, since you know what is in the heart of a child and what most children seek?

I know God's word, that Christ makes every soul in His image, and lightens every child coming into the world with light to seek God.

I don't even need to have children in order to believe God's words.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks, you too.

I do apreciate you're not trying to teach the sin nature thingy in our own flesh made by Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Greetings Iconclast,

I agree with some of the things you say, but I believe "sin" is sin, that is transgression of the Law, and "sin" is not inherited in our blood from Adam, or in our flesh. Jesus came in the same nature, the same flesh and blood, as us, in order to overcome sin and all it's effects:

Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The writer to the Hebrews could not add much more for emphasis, as he repeats essentially the same word a number of times.

Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I understand that the word "likeness" here is in the same sense as "sameness". And "sinful flesh" is better rendered "sin's flesh". There may be a subtle difference, in that in every other person, the same flesh has been governed by "Sin", "King Sin", a use of the figure of metonymy, but in Jesus' case his flesh was NEVER governed by "Sin", "King Sin", and Jesus never sinned.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hello trevor,
Thanks for your response. Consider this from preceptaustin;
Likeness (3667) (homoíoma) means similitude or resemblance and in no way implies that one of the objects in question has been derived from the other. In the same way two men may resemble one another even though they are in no way related to one another.

Although in His incarnation Christ became fully man, He took only the outward appearance of sinful flesh, because He was completely without sin (cf Philippians 2:7, 2:8 see notes-Php 2:7, 8). Jesus, as God, took on our human nature, a nature that was susceptible to temptation. Although He was tempted, He never gave in. He never sinned.

To reiterate Jesus did not come in sinful flesh itself but in “the likeness of” sinful flesh. Jesus Christ truly came "in the flesh", but only in the "likeness" of "sinful" flesh. But by coming into the world in human form, He resembled sinful humanity. In other words, Paul does not say Jesus came "in the likeness of flesh" as if He did not have real human flesh. This is the error of Docetism, which says yes Christ was deity but that He was not really humanity but only appeared to be humanity. In short, Docetism denies the incarnation. On the other hand, Paul does not say "in sinful flesh" which would teach that He took on our fallen sin nature. No, what Paul says is that Christ possessed genuine human flesh, but it

Dr Ryrie agrees that the "The word "likeness" is crucial, for it indicates that Jesus was a true man but not a sinful man. (The Ryrie Study Bible: New American Standard Translation: 1995. Moody Publishers or Wordsearch)

Dr Henry Morris - Outwardly the flesh of (Jesus') human body was exactly like that of other human bodies, but it had been preserved free from inherent sin by His miraculous conception and virgin birth, then kept free from actual sin by His sinless life. Thus His flesh was sinless flesh. (Morris, Henry: Defenders Study Bible. Hard bound)

The Disciple's Study Bible adds that :Jesus was fully human in every way we are but one. He was in our likeness, a likeness that was originally the likeness or image of God (Ge 1:26). But unlike Adam and every other descendant of Adam (Ro 3:23), Jesus did not sin. His sinless life made Him different from us, thus making Him a suitable sacrifice before God to bring forgiveness for our sins. (Disciple's Study Bible)

Sinful (266) (hamartia) originally conveyed the idea of missing the mark as when hunting with a bow and arrow then missing. Hamartia then came to mean falling short of any goal, standard, or purpose. In the context of Scripture then hamartia refers to missing and falling short of God’s standard of holiness.

Flesh (4561) (sarx) in this section of the verse ("in the likeness of sinful flesh") is used literally as indicative of the physical body, not figuratively as a reference to man's corrupt, fallen nature that is opposed to God (the latter moral/ethical meaning is intended in the phrase "weak as it was through the flesh").

Kent Hughes makes the point that...

Paul was very careful about his words here. He did not say Christ came “in sinful flesh” because that would imply sin was in Him. Nor did he say, “likeness of flesh” because that might imply Christ only seemed to be in the flesh. He said, “the likeness of sinful man (flesh)” because Christ took on man’s flesh (human nature) without becoming a sinner. Cranfield writes,

“… the Son of God assumed the selfsame fallen human nature that is ours, but … in His case that fallen human nature was never the whole of Him.”

Christ became “a sin offering” as he took our sin without sinning. Thus His flesh (His human nature) remained strong and unfallen. As a result “He condemned sin in sinful man.” That is, He conquered sin. (Hughes, R. K. Romans: Righteousness from heaven. Preaching the Word. Crossway)

Why is it important to "belabor" the truth about "likeness of sinful flesh"? Because where there is truth, Satan and his ambassadors of light will spread lies and so in the early days of Christianity the damning heresy arose theologians call Docetism (from Greek dokeo = to seem or appear), which taught that Jesus was fully God but only "seemed" or "appeared" to have a human body and by extension He only "seemed" to suffer and die on the Cross. You can see the importance of this "small point" lest one preach another "gospel" and another "Jesus", neither of which are the truth and neither of which have the inherent saving power of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Remember that when you present the true gospel it is not your power but "the (inherent) power of God for salvation" (see Romans 1:16-note) Writing to the Colossian saints Paul explained that "the word of truth, the gospel" had come to them and was spreading throughout the ancient world "constantly bearing fruit and increasing". (see Col 1:6-note).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again RBDERRICK,

Perfectly pure of heart and soul, if not whole of body.

I have a different perspective of human nature, in that after the fall the various lusts were awakened in a wrong direction. There are two seeds, the seed of the woman, and this is developed by faith, with Christ at the centre, and the seed of the serpent, man and his lusts.
Jeremiah 17:9–10 (KJV): 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ephesians 4:17–24 (KJV): 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Older men and women are like serpents, while children start and may seem harmless and innocent, but without intervention and Divine guidance and a spiritual environment from their parents reveal that they are only young snakes.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Perfectly pure of heart and soul, if not whole of body.

No flesh itself is unclean, but only natural.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (Titus 1)


I don't read God creating man and woman in His image, 'in general'.

He creates each specific soul and spirit of man, to be perfectly whole and clean without spot nor wrinkle. And all flesh on earth is made natural by Christ. If not perfectly whole and complete in limbs.



Sin corrupts the soul and spirit, not the flesh and blood.

Sinning can do damage to the body and the life, but not make any flesh different in nature.

The lusts of the flesh read, the lusting for the flesh.

No tissues of flesh on earth lusts against the goodness of God.

Hunger and thirst of the flesh to live, is only natural. Too many people preach a nature theology, where the natural things have spirit in themselves to do good or evil, whether they be natural bodies or celestial. It's the pagan spiritism of demigods and gods.


You need to separate spirit from flesh, when speaking of sin and righteousness.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3)

Thirsting and hungering for righteousness has nothing to do with the flesh and blood tissue and plasma.

Not the seed of Abraham and David after the flesh, but the faith of Abraham and David after the Spirit.

Which they recieved from Christ before coming in the flesh.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3)


This is your judgment, since you know what is in the heart of a child and what most children seek?

I know God's word, that Christ makes every soul in His image, and lightens every child coming into the world with light to seek God.

I don't even need to have children in order to believe God's words.


Thanks, you too.

I do apreciate you're not trying to teach the sin nature thingy in our own flesh made by Christ.

HI REDERRICK
I APPRECIATE THAT YOU'RE TRYING, BUT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO POST VERSES LIKE THIS:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever ......

IT HAS TO INCLUDE THE GOSPEL OR LETTER
THE CHAPTER
THE VERSE

PLEASE BEGIN DOING THIS.
THANKS!

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again RBDERRICK,

I have a different perspective of human nature, in that after the fall the various lusts were awakened in a wrong direction. There are two seeds, the seed of the woman, and this is developed by faith, with Christ at the centre, and the seed of the serpent, man and his lusts.
Jeremiah 17:9–10 (KJV): 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ephesians 4:17–24 (KJV): 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Older men and women are like serpents, while children start and may seem harmless and innocent, but without intervention and Divine guidance and a spiritual environment from their parents reveal that they are only young snakes.

Kind regards
Trevor

Do you believe children are born lost and go to hell if they die?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Iconclast,

Although in His incarnation Christ became fully man, He took only the outward appearance of sinful flesh, because He was completely without sin (cf Philippians 2:7, 2:8 see notes-Php 2:7, 8). Jesus, as God, took on our human nature, a nature that was susceptible to temptation. Although He was tempted, He never gave in. He never sinned.

Yes, he never sinned, but I do not accept the concept of the "Incarnation" as you describe. I believe that Jesus was a human descended from God the Father as his father through the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary was his mother, Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14, and as such he partook of Adam's fallen nature, "Sin's flesh". You do not seem to consider metonymy here, but I consider it an essential summary of Romans 7 and what Paul showed what the real essence of the struggle against Sin which Christ endured in his nature and overcame in victory.

Taking the rest of the verse
Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rather "Sin's flesh"), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
For sin: He suffered for the whole problem of "sin" in it's many manifestations. His trial, his care for the sick, everything that has been introduced as a result of Adam's transgression.
Condemned Sin in the flesh: Almost like a judicial condemnation, but also the concept of rendering the lusts of the flesh which he possessed of no effect. For example his trial in the wilderness for 40 days. Also the following:

1 Peter 2:18–25 (KJV): 18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Godsgrace,

Do you believe children are born lost and go to hell if they die?

I believe in the mortality of man, not immortal souls.

Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The pagan concept of immortal souls, based on Greek philsophy, and going to heaven or hell at death and eternal torture in hell is not part of the religion that I espouse, and is a gross misrepresentation of a merciful and loving God, God the Father. I believe in the mortality of man and the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of the faithful when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom, and rule from the Temple Throne of David for the 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4. And this will soon be accomplished as the pieces are starting to be formed in place in the Middle East.

Exodus 34:5–7 (KJV): 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Jesus will soon sweep away all the lies that have been taught.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings Godsgrace,

I believe in the mortality of man, not immortal souls.

Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The pagan concept of immortal souls, based on Greek philsophy, and going to heaven or hell at death and eternal torture in hell is not part of the religion that I espouse, and is a gross misrepresentation of a merciful and loving God, God the Father. I believe in the mortality of man and the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of the faithful when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom, and rule from the Temple Throne of David for the 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4. And this will soon be accomplished as the pieces are starting to be formed in place in the Middle East.

Exodus 34:5–7 (KJV): 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Jesus will soon sweep away all the lies that have been taught.

Kind regards
Trevor

Two thoughts:

1. A soul must be immortal or there will be no resurrection. I suppose you believe in soul sleep.

2. It's possible that we have an incorrect idea of hell. However, Jesus did teach of a place where God is absent.

And,
You didn't answer my question.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Godsgrace,

You didn't answer my question.

Do you believe children are born lost and go to hell if they die?

I do not believe in the "hell" of pagan religion and Greek philosophy. Take for example the most important verse on the subject, taken from the Resurrection Psalm which Peter expounds on the Day of Pentecost, soon after the Resurrection of Jesus, His Change to Immortality, His Exaltation and Ascension to Heaven to sit at God the Father's right hand in God the Father's Throne Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:20-21:
Psalm 16:8–11 (KJV): 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Now David the initial speaker of this Psalm did go to hell, the covered place, the place where the dead are laid, and so that the smell after three or four days is not objectionable to the passer by, as expressed by Martha:
John 11:39 (KJV): Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

Now David was also laid in a tomb, and he decayed back to the dust, but he states:
Psalm 16:10 (KJV): For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
But in contrast, when speaking of the Christ who would come, he says:
Psalm 16:10 (KJV): neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Adam and his descendants were sentenced to return to the dust, and not necessarily because of their own sin, such as when a babe who dies, but they partake of the mortality of man because of the Sin of Adam. Now Jesus partook of this mortality, and if he had lived to 100 he may have died, but we know that he even volunteered to die at the request of His Father, suffering at the hands of cruel men.

Now the Justice and Mercy of God is revealed here. Jesus came under the sentence of mortality, he died, and yet he had never sinned and hence the sentence of returning to the dust was not valid with Jesus, and he saw NO CORRUPTION, but was raised from the dead, as the GRAVE could not hold him. This was the means of reversal of the Law or Sentence in Eden. Not just because of the Law established in Eden, but also because of the Father's LOVE and fellowship with His Beloved Son.
Psalm 21:1–6 (KJV): 1 The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! 2 Thou hast given him his heart’s desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah. 3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head. 4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever. 5 His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him. 6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.

This is the essence of what Peter expounds on the Day of Pentecost, as stated in the following:
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Peter also applies the first phrase "that his soul was not left in hell" to Jesus as well as David himself. There is no mention of immortal souls going to heaven and hell at death, but absolutely the opposite.

Now to answer your question directly, when a child dies, they return to the dust. It is up to God and His Mercy if some of the dead children are resurrected at the beginning of the Kingdom, but in general if a child dies, then that this is the end of their existence.

Two thoughts:
1. A soul must be immortal or there will be no resurrection. I suppose you believe in soul sleep.

The whole man is a soul. It is not a separate entity from the body and hence the words "soul sleep" is ambiguous and almost relies on the same concept as the pagan teaching that thinking must be a separate entity, while we know that our thoughts are connected in a marvelous way with our brain and if oxygen is deprived our thoughts cease.
John 11:11–14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

2. It's possible that we have an incorrect idea of hell. However, Jesus did teach of a place where God is absent.

God is everywhere present by His Holy Spirit which fills heaven and earth:
Psalm 139:1–9 (KJV): 1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Iconoclast]

Greetings again Iconclast,

Yes, he never sinned, but I do not accept the concept of the "Incarnation" as you describe. I believe that Jesus was a human descended from God the Father as his father through the power of the Holy Spirit and Mary was his mother, Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14, and as such he partook of Adam's fallen nature, "Sin's flesh". You do not seem to consider metonymy here, but I consider it an essential summary of Romans 7 and what Paul showed what the real essence of the struggle against Sin which Christ endured in his nature and overcame in victory.

Taking the rest of the verse
Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rather "Sin's flesh"), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
For sin: He suffered for the whole problem of "sin" in it's many manifestations. His trial, his care for the sick, everything that has been introduced as a result of Adam's transgression.
Condemned Sin in the flesh: Almost like a judicial condemnation, but also the concept of rendering the lusts of the flesh which he possessed of no effect. For example his trial in the wilderness for 40 days. Also the following:

1 Peter 2:18–25 (KJV): 18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus is God who took upon Himself a human body. Do you believe Jesus was 100% God/ and 100% man???