Revalation

[Eugene]

Eugene, I have been reading about Preterism and other doctrines, of late, and I think partial Preterism may the doctrine that is more inline with my interpretation of the scripture. In general, my interpretation is centered around the notion that Christ was not trying to fool his disciples, the Jews, or anyone else with timing. If he said, "this generation," he meant within his own generation. If he said, "shortly come to pass," he didn't mean a thousand years. If he said, "a thousand years," he didn't mean shortly or within his own generation. He meant what he said! In a nutshell, I take Christ's timing literally, and interpret the timing of other prophecies to fall within Christ's frame of reference. He is the Lord. He is the Chief Cornerstone. Any other frame of reference doesn't make sense to me.

Possibly needless to say, but I don't agree, When you say shortly come to pass, thirty years is okay huh? Is there even the possibility in context with what Jesus was asked by the apostles there could be a future time prophesied? Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (Or end of the age)? Three questions concerning the time to come. Are they consummated in 70 AD?

For the record, I was a "nothing" for over four decades. That is, my KJV bible has no concordance, no footnotes--nothing, so I had no outside influence. I was so naive I did not know what a Scofield Bible was until this past summer. All I knew was the Scripture. So when I first heard about a "third temple," a "gap" in Daniel's 70 weeks, and some of the other more recent "revelations," I was of the opinion, "they must be reading a different bible than I am reading." Anyway, that sparked my interest in learning more about the various doctrines.

Sorry to be the one to tell you, but there is no gap in Daniel's seventieth week; that week was filled with nothing but blessings ending with the stoning of Stephen. There is to be a last week of Daniel to come proceeded by the taking away of a newly established daily sacrifice. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days; this is the futurist's middle of the week of tribulation to come. When they see these things, that generation will not pass until those things come to pass. We can get more into this in the End Times Forum if you'd like to. Dear Brother Dan, I'll leave off on this for the time being and hope to see you in End Times Forum. If you decide to pursue Preterism, there is a Preterist sub forum of End Times. Thanks.

God bless you in Jesus' name.

 

[Dan00]

>>>Possibly needless to say, but I don't agree, When you say shortly come to pass, thirty years is okay huh?<<<


I thought I answered that question in my first post on this thread; but I will answer, anyway.


Thirty years would most definitely fit, when used in this context:


"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." (Rev 22:10)


Of course, it could be a matter of hours, or days, or weeks, etc., but the time periods mentioned in the Revelation would have to be considered. It certainly would not appear to be thousands of years when the term "a thousand years" is specifically used to describe two separate events in the same book: the thousand-year reign and the binding of Satan.


I am curious. What do you think “shortly come to pass” means in that context, Eugene?


>>>Is there even the possibility in context with what Jesus was asked by the apostles there could be a future time prophesied? Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (Or end of the age)? Three questions concerning the time to come. Are they consummated in 70 AD?<<<


For the first two questions, the answer is, yes, they were fulfilled in A.D. 70, because Jesus said they would be. I could, of course, spiritualize verse 34 to explain away the term “this generation” to mean something other than the context used in other parts of the gospels (and in most every language in the world, to this day.) I could also spiritualize Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 and claim the “abomination of desolation” mentioned in those two verses meant something completely different from the parallel verse in Luke 21:20 (“Jerusalem compassed with armies”) even though it was an abomination the very second the first horse or soldier of the Roman armies set foot on the soil of the holy city, and even though in all three verses the word “desolation” is used, which was the end result of the abomination of the Roman armies on the holy soil. But I will leave that form of interpretation to others (but not recommended it).


For the third question, I am unsure. It certainly was the End of the Age or World: 1) for the tyranny of Judaism--at least for a long time; 2) for the bloody temple practices; and 3) for the glorious city of Jerusalem. It was also the End of the Age or World for the “chosen people” being chosen by race, rather than faith. I doubt the question related to the final judgement, which I believe to be another matter altogether.


>>>Sorry to be the one to tell you, but there is no gap in Daniel's seventieth week; that week was filled with nothing but blessings ending with the stoning of Stephen. <<<


You do not have to tell me. I already knew it (I thought I made that clear.) There are, however, many of the futurist persuasion that believe there is a ”gap,” and teach men so.


>>>There is to be a last week of Daniel to come proceeded by the taking away of a newly established daily sacrifice. Dan 12:11 <<<


Now, that I did not know. Was that not fulfilled during the Jewish-Roman War, as declared below?


"This was a remarkable day indeed, the seventeenth of Paneruns. [Tamuz,] A.D. 70, when, according to Daniel's prediction, six hundred and six years before, the Romans "in half a week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease," (Daniel 9:27) [Footnote #768 of Josephus’, "Wars of the Jews," VI.2.1]


>>>And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days; this is the futurist's middle of the week of tribulation to come. When they see these things, that generation will not pass until those things come to pass. <<<


I believe the great tribulation occurred during the Jewish-Roman war (A.D. 66-70,) as prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24:21, in similar terms in Mark 13:20, implied in Luke 21:22-24, and preserved in history in the “Wars of the Jews:”


“. . . neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.” [Josephus, “Wars of the Jews,” V.10.5]

Luke 21:24 is a special case that prophesies the holy city would be trodden down by the Gentiles. The time frame of the war was about three and a half years (or forty and two months), which would make the event similar to that in Revelation 11:2. During the A.D. 70 war there was still a temple for most of the war, so we don’t have to find a new one to fit into the event.


In any case, Eugene, if you understand the book of Daniel you are a remarkable scholar, indeed!


>>>We can get more into this in the End Times Forum if you'd like to. Dear Brother Dan, I'll leave off on this for the time being and hope to see you in End Times Forum. <<<


I’ll check it out.


>>>If you decide to pursue Preterism, there is a Preterist sub forum of End Times.<<<


Thanks, and God Bless You.

Dan

 

[Dan00]

I forgot to mention this earlier, but it is critical to the understanding of the book of the Revelation. Recall I posted this passage from Hebrews:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant . . ." (Hebrews 12:22-24. See also Rev 14:1-4; 1 Peter 2:3-10; Romans 9:29-33; Ephesians 2:18-22; Isaiah 8:14 and 28:14-18; and Psalms 118:22-23)

Therefore, mount Sion is a heavenly place where we find the city of the living God--the heavenly Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is also referred to in the Revelation as the "holy city, New Jerusalem;" the "beloved city;" and "the bride, the Lamb's wife." It is also referred to in Hebrews 12:23 as the Church, the term used by many Christians, including me.

But this is a key point: note Paul used the words "ye are come", rather than "ye will come." Therefore, mount Sion and the heavenly Jerusalem existed at the time Paul wrote the Hebrews, which was about mid-first century.

While we are at it, and with that context in mind, the following passages further identify the heavenly mount Sion:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;” (1 Peter 2:5-9 )

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written,Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 9:31-33)

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

We see in these epistles the heavenly mount Sion is also the location of the holy temple, which was built upon the foundation of the holy apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone, and with Christians forming part of the building and framework.

These scriptures relating to mount Sion are tied together by 1 Peter 2:

Sion – 1 Pet 2:6; Heb 12:22; Rom 9:33; Rev 14:1
Stumblingstone – 1 Pet 2:8; Rom 9:33
Cornerstone – 1 Pet 2:6; Eph 2:20
Temple, Priesthood – 1 Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:21

In the epistles the references to the holy temple at mount Sion are past or present tense.

Other references to the holy temple in this context include:

". . . the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Cor 3:17)

"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven . . ." (Psalms 11:4)

"Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it. . ." (Psalms 127:1)

". . . Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

The last verse requires some clarification. David made it clear in Psalms 11:4 that the “Lord’s throne is in heaven.” Therefore, when the Lord “rules upon his throne” it is from his throne in heaven. Note also in the passage that Jesus (the "Branch") not only builds the temple and rules from his throne, but also serves as a priest upon his throne, not in the temple. The following two verses clarify Christ’s role as a priest:

"As [God] saith also in another place, Thou [Christ] art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." (Hebrews 5:6. The other place is Psalms 110:3)

Christ serves as High Priest in this manner:

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands. . ." (Hebrews 9:11)

That ties together with Ephesians 2:18-22 (above) and this related verse:

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Revelation 21:22)

Therefore, when the Lord sits on his throne, it is in heaven; and when the Lord serves as a high priest in the holy temple, it is from his throne in heaven.

Dan

 

[turnorburn]

I knew there was something about Preterism that sounded fishy then tonight i found this which explains it quite well..

Preterism holds that the contents of Revelation constitute a prophecy of events that were fulfilled in the 1st century.[57]Preterism was first expounded by the "Jesuit" Luis de Alcasar during the Counter Reformation.[9][58] The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants,[11][12] who identified the Pope with the Anti-Christ.

Expounded by a Jesuit..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

tob

 

[Randy]

From Rev 11 there will be testimony of 1260 days. Those two witnesses will be in Jerusalem. The beast that comes up from the abyss kills them. That beasts reign is 42 months. Zech 14 states the mount of olives will be split in two to make a way of escape from the surrounding armies. That hasn't happened yet and in regard to Jesus's teaching the gathering point for that battle was the Holy Land and those invading armies will not be destroyed by human power but by the Lord. A victory for God people. Not defeat. In regard to Rev. I believe Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken and after that testimony (1260 days) the beast will be in this world. Released at the sounding of the 5th trump of God. A time of great tribulation. The beast and those that follow the beast (his armies) shall be the cause of astounding devastation in the world. Unless God cuts short those days no one would survive. The bowl judgments are the last of Gods wrath and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. With them Gods wrath is complete. Rev 15:1 Rev 16:10 At the time of the end battle the Lord comes and reigns with those that Love Him. Rev 16:15

In regard to a future Babylon I think its where it always has been. The land of Shinar. ref: Zech 5 While I don't know for sure what I can see now is that there currently is a commodity it that region that brings great wealth to those who control that commodity and it will be greatly sought after (even more so in future years) by the nations. (oil)

The beasts armies will invade that future babylon.

 

[turnorburn]

@ Dan00: How does Preterism explain Revelation chapter 13 verses concerning the mark of the beast in verses 16-17

Thanks..

tob

*edit: spelling..

 

[Dan00]

How does Preterism explain Revelation chapter 13 verses concerning the mark of the beast in verses 16-17
Thanks..
tob

LOL. Okay, here goes. Nero was a Roman Emperor from 54-68 A.D., and the sixth in a line of Caesars, fulfilling the prophecy of Revelation 17:10, "there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is.." Nero was the "one is" part of the verse. His successor, Galba, served only about 6 months, or as the scripture said, "continued a short space."

Nero, along with the Jewish leadership from the great city, Babylon the Great, had the early Christians virtually terrorized. Nero was one vicious dude, to say the least, and his horrific treatment of the early Christians is legendary.

Nero's Greek name just so happened to translate into Hebrew as 666. If I understand this correctly, there were Roman temples in which he was worshiped as a god, and if you did not worship him you risked death.

To understand the relationship between the Caesar and the Babylon the great, recall these verses:

"Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her. . ." (Rev 17:7)

"If we let him [Jesus] thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation." (John 11:48)

The beast, who was Caesar, and who was Rome for all practical purposes, propped up the Jewish leadership of Babylon the Great, e.g., "carried her," before their falling out.

There is much, much more to this story, but I have to be somewhere. Post any other questions you have about this and I will try to answer them later on today or evening.

Dan

 

[turnorburn]

Those aren't from chapter 13 these are..

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name

tob

 

[Edward]

What's the easiest way to understand this book of the bible? I think it's about the future. But I could be wrong. Please give me some ideas to understand it easy. I want to study it after you give me some things to make it easy to understand.

A very serious study of the book of Daniel before reading Revelation is needed. If you don't understand Daniel, you wont understand Revelation.

 

[reba]

Dan you may be out numbered here but you are welcome.

 

[Sinthesis]

Out numbered doesn't mean wrong. Perhaps partial-preterists are the remnant, while wide is the gate to futurism.

 

[reba]

no need to start a war....

 

[Dan00]

A very serious study of the book of Daniel before reading Revelation is needed. If you don't understand Daniel, you wont understand Revelation.

The problem is, we are fresh out of people who understand the book of Daniel.

 

[turnorburn]

All i wanted to know is how you explain these verses using Preterism...

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Thanks..

tob

 

[reba]

Before this gets away into a battle...
I was a Bible believing Christian before my searching took me to Orthodox Perterism ....
I am a Bible believing Christian today.
Coming out of Scofield dispensatinalism did not make me more Christian then my siblings who are still there.
Please keep the ToS in mind while posting...

NOT NECESSARILY directed at the last poster ... Been here long enough to see the battle lines being formed in the forum.

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Dan00]

Dan you may be out numbered here but you are welcome.

Hi, Reba. Thanks. I am also outnumbered in my Church. Funny but it seems all I have to do is ask for coherent, scriptural proof in the New Testament of their futuristic "prophecies" (such as, say, the third temple) and the subject is changed rather quickly. I also have a long list of a rather famous bunch who has sold us (literally) false futuristic prophecies. I typically remind them that the penalty for such treachery in the old days was death by stoning.

 

[Dan00]

All i wanted to know is how you explain these verses using Preterism...

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Thanks..

tob

I have not spent much time researching that one, and currently do not understand it. There are a gazillion speculations out there; but they are only speculations. Read enough of them and you will probably find one you like.

One thing I believe is certain regarding the "dreaded" mark of the beast is that it was something those in the early churches in Asia understood, since that was who John was writing to.

There is another certainty. The understanding of the Number and Mark of the Beast was lost quickly. Even the early Church Fathers had so many views on the subject it made their understandings meaningless, or, at the most, unhelpful.

When researching, it might be important to understand the time involved. When Caesar made a decree, it was usually enforceable by penalty of death, and there were generally no exceptions. Therefore, "small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" were typically subject to the decree. I would start with that context when researching the matter.

One other point: the "beast" was not a particular person in that "he" represented a series of kings, one of which was Nero whose name translated into "666." The "beast," therefore was probably Rome. The ten horns were probably the roman legions, though I have not counted to see if there were ten at the time, or exactly how man were sent against Jerusalem. This verse made me choose the legions as the ten horns:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." (Rev 17:16)

The Roman Legions were the ones that burned and destroyed Jerusalem and made it desolate. I believe they were also the armies the Lord sent to avenge the blood of his servants (Matthew 22:1-7.)

Rome sits on seven hills, but the Revelation says the Babylon The Great sat on seven mountains. Taken literally, Rome is not Babylon the Great. The Greek word for mountain, used throughout the NT, is also the one used in the Revelation. The Greek word for "hills," also found in the NT, is a different word.

There is another possibility. I don't have all the details gathered together at this time, but it appears there were seven "mountains" in Jerusalem in ancient times. Five are mentioned in the Bible, and two additional ones are mentioned by Josephus. One actually had the top removed so it would not stand higher than the temple mount, and this was one of the two not mentioned in the Bible. It seems the Jews were always re-landscaping the area: lowering mountains, filling valleys, etc.. And, of course, earthquakes provided some natural landscaping on occasion. Today there are only four named mountains. When I get time I will organize all my notes and post on the forum.

Dan

 

[sourberry]

Dan, you are so much focused on researching and understanding. Does hill counting really matter?

 

[turnorburn]

Hi Dan do you like to read no not skipping over portions here and there.. by reading i mean reading with understanding. A book i read some 40 years ago isn't a large book as large books go its full of knowledge vast quantities of knowledge. Its been read by hundreds of thousands of history buffs i assume you like history.. and out of those hundreds of thousands not one person has found ay holes in his findings the mans name is Alexander Hislop the title of the book is The Two Babylons..

Get ready for a wild ride..

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

tob

 

[iLOVE]

Now that you are saved, you should ask the Lord to baptize you with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).

While it is certainly true the Holy Spirit came into your heart and life the moment of your Salvation, still, He now wishes to endure you with power from on high. Consequently, Jesus told all of His followers immediately before His Ascension, that they should "wait for the Promise of the Father" (Acts 1:4). He was speaking of being "Baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5).

You must understand that there is a great difference in being "born of the Spirit" than being " Baptized with the Spirit." They are two different works altogether.

To be "born of the Spirit" is that which took place at your conversion, as the holy Spirit brought you to Christ and performed the work of regeneration within your heart and life. To be "Baptized with the Spirit" is in order that you may have Power with God (Acts 1:8). Every Believer should ask the lord to fill them with the Holy Spirit, and expect to receive (Luke 11:13).