Rushed into Marriage by the Church

[theLords]

Highlife,

I believe you should really examine what is in your heart in regards to your attitude towards sex. Almost every single post you've made has been in reference to sex, and if the topic was not about sex, you managed to infuse sex into the topic at hand. The Bible says: (Matthew 12:37) "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.", as well as, (Matthew 12:34) "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

I guess, but what are your alternatives. Being separated from God is not really an acceptable alternative to me so I guess I am just anther flawed human being. Unfortunatly these particular set of flaws seem to be magnified much more than other types of sin in the church.

You say that being separated from God is not an acceptable alternative to you, but I am going to come right out and say, that because of sin in your life, you are separated from God. His grace and mercy still abides with you and over your life, but until you repent of sexual immorality, you will lack the ability to move deeper into the heart of God.

When you refused to separate from your girlfriend, it was because: "but we were not going to give up 8 months of a sex life for a non biblical formality". Your desire to have sex, and the convenience of continuing to live comfortably with your girlfriend came before the mandate of God, to abstain from sexual immorality. You see, you have made sex an idol. It is more important for you to satisfy your flesh, then it is for you to "suffer for [Christ's] sake;" (Philipians 1:29).

There are many Godly young men, who do not fall into the temptations of pre-marital sex (this is not a condemnation of those who do), but you cannot state that just because "some" men fall into this sin, that all men do, and that therefore the Biblical mandates of abstaining from fornication do not "work" in our modern time. There are a plethora of Christians who abstain from sex, no matter how much they have to suffer, for the sake of Christ.

You also keep referring to the Old Testament law, your reasoning to go back to OT law, shows that you are not too familiar with how a Follower of the Living Christ is supposed to live. You state that divorce in the OT was easier than in the NT and that we should go back to that way of thinking as if there is holiness there, but the Bible says, "Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." (Matthew 19:8, NIV). Easily wanting to divorce one's wife (OT style) (outside of Biblical allowances) points to the hardness of the hearts of men.

I believe you need to seek the Lord in this issue. Because, you were in open rebellion to God, and being in rebellion to God is also being accountable for the sin of idolatry, and witchcraft.

1 Samuel 15:23 (NASB)
"For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king."

In fact, what your church should have done is removed you two from the congregation:

1 Corinthians 5:13 (NLT)
God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

By not obeying Biblical mandates on how to deal with sexual immorality in the church, the church is going to suffer (Galatians 6:7, NIV) "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." It has said to the youth of the church, "You can live together and have sex as long as you promise us you'll get married, we'll just badger you until you do." It has blessed sexual immorality by being passive towards sin, and it will suffer for it, unfortunately. Unless, the Pastor and leadership repents.

Another thing, what would you have done if after 2 years of living together and having sex, you and your wife decided you didn't want to get married? Do you not think it unfair that you would have defamed another man's wife, and she defamed another women's husband?

I'm not telling this to you to "bash you on the head with the Bible", I'm telling you this because you have been open and honest, and by being open and honest with you in return, I think you can come into repentance and the Lord can work in your life to restore you.

 

[highlife]

I feel you have dodged around critical questions I have and was hoping to see where explicitly in sculpture the piece of paper is, to claim one is in open rebellion should one provide the pointed scripture to prove it or other wise stop making such serious clams?

Highlife,

I believe you should really examine what is in your heart in regards to your attitude towards sex. Almost every single post you've made has been in reference to sex, and if the topic was not about sex, you managed to infuse sex into the topic at hand. The Bible says: (Matthew 12:37) "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.", as well as, (Matthew 12:34) "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."



You say that being separated from God is not an acceptable alternative to you, but I am going to come right out and say, that because of sin in your life, you are separated from God. His grace and mercy still abides with you and over your life, but until you repent of sexual immorality, you will lack the ability to move deeper into the heart of God.

When you refused to separate from your girlfriend, it was because: "but we were not going to give up 8 months of a sex life for a non biblical formality". Your desire to have sex, and the convenience of continuing to live comfortably with your girlfriend came before the mandate of God, to abstain from sexual immorality. You see, you have made sex an idol. It is more important for you to satisfy your flesh, then it is for you to "suffer for [Christ's] sake;" (Philipians 1:29).

There are many Godly young men, who do not fall into the temptations of pre-marital sex (this is not a condemnation of those who do), but you cannot state that just because "some" men fall into this sin, that all men do, and that therefore the Biblical mandates of abstaining from fornication do not "work" in our modern time. There are a plethora of Christians who abstain from sex, no matter how much they have to suffer, for the sake of Christ.

You also keep referring to the Old Testament law, your reasoning to go back to OT law, shows that you are not too familiar with how a Follower of the Living Christ is supposed to live. You state that divorce in the OT was easier than in the NT and that we should go back to that way of thinking as if there is holiness there, but the Bible says, "Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." (Matthew 19:8, NIV). Easily wanting to divorce one's wife (OT style) (outside of Biblical allowances) points to the hardness of the hearts of men.

I believe you need to seek the Lord in this issue. Because, you were in open rebellion to God, and being in rebellion to God is also being accountable for the sin of idolatry, and witchcraft.

1 Samuel 15:23 (NASB)
"For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king."

In fact, what your church should have done is removed you two from the congregation:

1 Corinthians 5:13 (NLT)
God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

By not obeying Biblical mandates on how to deal with sexual immorality in the church, the church is going to suffer (Galatians 6:7, NIV) "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows." It has said to the youth of the church, "You can live together and have sex as long as you promise us you'll get married, we'll just badger you until you do." It has blessed sexual immorality by being passive towards sin, and it will suffer for it, unfortunately. Unless, the Pastor and leadership repents.

Another thing, what would you have done if after 2 years of living together and having sex, you and your wife decided you didn't want to get married? Do you not think it unfair that you would have defamed another man's wife, and she defamed another women's husband?

I'm not telling this to you to "bash you on the head with the Bible", I'm telling you this because you have been open and honest, and by being open and honest with you in return, I think you can come into repentance and the Lord can work in your life to restore you.

 

[Denique Coelum]

We have to subject to Earthly authorities, as far as conscience allows, don't we? That being the case, we couldn't call ourselves married when legally, according to the authorities, we aren't. That piece of paper is fulfilling righteousness, and acknowledging that the Earthly authorities that God has put in place require a formal statement of marriage.

This is a difficult situation, and you have my sympathy, highlife. But it is a fact that your current position is not in accordance with the mind of God, as many others posting here who are more knowledgeable of Scripture than I am and have spent more years walking before God than I have, have attested to.

 

[theLords]

I feel you have dodged around critical questions I have and was hoping to see where explicitly in sculpture the piece of paper is, to claim one is in open rebellion should one provide the pointed scripture to prove it or other wise stop making such serious clams?

They are serious claims, and I am glad you have been able to see that. Is it so terrible that you are some horrid, wretched, heathen destined for the lowest level of Hades? No! Your honesty and openness is a good indicator that you desire God, but you lack maturity in Christ (i.e., not understanding Biblical principles). Sin is very serious, and once repentance and turning away from sin and to God is made, then restoration and blessings can follow. Just like Saul, your blessings (over your life) are being held back, but unlike Saul, you have the chance of restoration in Christ!

A piece of paper does not constitute marriage, but we are told time and time again to abstain from sexual immorality:

1 Thessalonians 4

1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[handy]

And in regards to that piece of paper, I'll unashamedly point you back up to my previous post.

Perhaps in the bible, they didn't have a "piece of paper"...but nonetheless there were recognized procedures as to marriage...and wives certainly had legal rights that concubines, slaves and prostitutes did not have.

I, too, have noticed that you have brought up the subject of how things were in the old testament regarding men having wives, concubines and sex slaves (whether or not the thread had anything to do with the subject).

I also wonder why? What is this focus on the multiple wives, concubines and sex slaves that the old testament men had? None of this has any part of Christianity. We are under a new covenant, which, as a woman, I'm very thankful for, because women didn't fare all that well under those old testament laws from Moses, which Jesus said came about due to the hardheartedness of men.

Unless you also think we should go back to stoning a woman if it was found she wasn't a virgin? :gah

No, I didn't think you did...I was just pointing out that when one really looks at life in the old testament...with it's laws and statutes and impossible standards...and the harsh punishments for not living up to them... far, far better to live under the grace of Jesus...who sanctified marriage by blessing the wedding at Cana with new wine.

 

[Mike]

Highlife, this is your stumbling block. Your pastor and his church tried to help you acknowledge it, but you remained and remain openly defiant. When someone refuses to give a part of his life to the Lord, he refuses to give what the Lord Demands of him. This is an area for you to address, and until you push your own pride aside, you won't be able to.

You have received Godly counsel here, but you refuse to back down. I agree with theLords. It seems to be a fixation of yours throughout your posts, whether pertinent to the topic or not. When, and only when, you let this go, you will be capable of truly experiencing the Riches of His Love.

 

[farouk]

I'd say that there's faults on both sides there.

highlife, I think it would be a gracious, Christian act on your part to accede to the wishes of your church. Also, sex out of wedlock is a sin, and simply because you've been committing it for a while, doesn't mean that God won't be pleased if you stop it from now until the wedding. In my view, it would be appropriate behaviour, and conscience would suggest it was the right course of action. I agree, however, that a legal marriage is simply a piece of paper, and that a marriage in Christ is an entirely different matter. I think that in order to fulfil righteousness, one should fulfil the law of the land and be legally married, but it's also important to be married in Christ. To take an example, two young people with whom I walk in fellowship were to be married, and it was a Transatlantic affair. Due to some complication with visas, the English girl had to go over to the USA and get legally married. Having done this, the couple refused to consummate the marriage or live together until they could be properly 'married before the Lord' and having a 'wedding meeting' with our brethren. So they did this, and are now happily married.

However, I also find fault with the "leadership", if they have indeed been badgering you. They may have the Scriptural right on their side, but all Christians should be gracious and patient with one another. This is yet another problem I find with un-scriptural practice of having elected officials and church leaders in Christendom, authority is given to one person or a small group of persons, and they exercise it over-zealously for the sake, not of the testimony, but of their own reputation. We should be subject to one another and overall to Christ, and no-one has the man-given right to authority. Nonetheless, I would be entirely sympathetic with the exercise of the pastor in this case, and would suggest that if you don't feel it's appropriate to be subject to him, you should take up the matter with God.

DC:

I agree with a lot of what you say.

What I would say as well is that if a couple are already legally married, no words by church people can add to the authenticity before God of what they have already entered into. Ideally the legal and the Christian witness aspect are done very close to one another, but I don't subscribe to the 'bells and smells' theory being what 'authenticates' a marriage.

 

[highlife]

Just to clarify I am legally married but friends are now dealing with this issue however I can find no scripture requiring the piece of paper, the law of the land scriptur has a totally different context and thus I don't feel can be used as a catch all to make such serious claims the more serious the claim the larger the burden of proff is on my mind

They are serious claims, and I am glad you have been able to see that. Is it so terrible that you are some horrid, wretched, heathen destined for the lowest level of Hades? No! Your honesty and openness is a good indicator that you desire God, but you lack maturity in Christ (i.e., not understanding Biblical principles). Sin is very serious, and once repentance and turning away from sin and to God is made, then restoration and blessings can follow. Just like Saul, your blessings (over your life) are being held back, but unlike Saul, you have the chance of restoration in Christ!

A piece of paper does not constitute marriage, but we are told time and time again to abstain from sexual immorality:

1 Thessalonians 4

1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[handy]

Just to clarify I am legally married but friends are now dealing with this issue however I can find no scripture requiring the piece of paper, the law of the land scriptur has a totally different context and thus I don't feel can be used as a catch all to make such serious claims the more serious the claim the larger the burden of proff is on my mind

and yet again...even in Scripture, marriage was more than just living together. There were procedures and legalities that the biblical societies recognized. In our society of today it's a marriage license... different, but nonetheless just as legally binding as the dowry Issac paid for Rebecca, the declaration that Boaz made before the court and whatever rites the couple at Cana did in order to have their union recognized as legal marriage as opposed to fornication.

 

[Denique Coelum]

DC:

I agree with a lot of what you say.

What I would say as well is that if a couple are already legally married, no words by church people can add to the authenticity before God of what they have already entered into. Ideally the legal and the Christian witness aspect are done very close to one another, but I don't subscribe to the 'bells and smells' theory being what 'authenticates' a marriage.

That's very true, and I don't think I fully understand the whole matter of marriage in the law and before the Lord. I should think that what is said in private between the couple and God is of the greatest importance.

My experience of marriage is purely from a 'brethren' point of view: the process is always the same - the couple is legally married at a registry office by a registrar and then shortly afterwards on the same day a marriage meeting is held during which those assembled commend the marriage to the Lord, with hymns, prayers and reading of the scriptures, as directed by the Spirit. It's normally the desire of all 'brethren' couples that both the legal procedure and the marriage meeting be carried out, and I certainly find that a marriage meeting is a very special occasion and is a proper celebration of the union.

As to what 'authenticates' a marriage... I really think that rests with God and the bride and groom.

 

[theLords]

Just to clarify I am legally married but friends are now dealing with this issue however I can find no scripture requiring the piece of paper, the law of the land scriptur has a totally different context and thus I don't feel can be used as a catch all to make such serious claims the more serious the claim the larger the burden of proff is on my mind

You should really address Handy's post. No one has claimed that some piece of paper authoritates marriage, but your refusing to recognize that fornication is sexual immorality and sin.

 

[highlife]

Sexual immorality and fornication is derived from pornia which is best translated as temple prostitution or perhaps prostitution in general not what the modern church has made it in to

You should really address Handy's post. No one has claimed that some piece of paper authoritates marriage, but your refusing to recognize that fornication is sexual immorality and sin.

 

[Denique Coelum]

Sexual immorality and fornication is derived from pornia which is best translated as temple prostitution or perhaps prostitution in general not what the modern church has made it in to

Quite so, although - and I don't intend to be crude or disrespectful - sleeping with someone to whom you aren't married is just a financial-transaction's-width away from sleeping with a prostitute. The distinction isn't very marked, in some ways...

 

[handy]

I'm really curious, highlife, why you are ignoring my points here?

Again...while the Bible doesn't specifically mention a "piece of paper", there were legalities and procedures in place in both the old testament and new which differentiated marriage from other sexual relationships. In our modern society the marriage license is the equivalent to the dowry, the vow before a court, and the wedding at Cana.

Why aren't you addressing this?

 

[theLords]

Sexual immorality and fornication is derived from pornia which is best translated as temple prostitution or perhaps prostitution in general not what the modern church has made it in to

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41038&p=615661#post615661

I am also curious As to why you are ignoring handy?

 

[highlife]

Doing what I can from an iPhone don't have the luxury to get into a circle as far as a monogomus relation ship being prostitution that's pretty easy to refute by say no she/he isent. Also ot had concubines which were never condemned just saying when one digs into the bible it's not as the church says it is from what I can tell

 

[highlife]

Telling someone there monogomus relationship is prostitution to give you ammo to beat them with a bible is disingenuous anyways. What I am hearing is no can prove the modern church's assertions but one better follow it any ways I personally can't do that to people

 

[theLords]

Doing what I can from an iPhone don't have the luxury to get into a circle.

Okay, that's fine, but until you address the Biblical truth handy brought up and refute it with Biblical Scripture, the truth of the matter is pre-marital sex is fornication and fornication is sexual immorality.

Telling someone there monogomus relationship is prostitution to give you ammo to beat them with a bible is disingenuous anyways.

You are the one that said fornication is nothing but temple prostitution, but you are not able to support your statement Biblically. If a couple is having sex outside of marriage and refuses to stop, it is open rebellion and open sin.

What I am hearing is no can prove the modern church's assertions but one better follow it any ways

Did you check out the link I provided? How about this one?

http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=152

I personally can't do that to people

I would be very careful if I were you, if you encourage other Christians to sin then: (Luke 17:2, ESV) "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin."

as far as a monogomus relation ship being prostitution that's pretty easy to refute by say no she/he isent.

So, your biggest refutation is "no, it isn't!" Where is your rigorous Bible study? Where are your tears before the Lord to find out the Biblical answer? Where are your sore knees from intense prayer? "No, it isn't true," is not a respectable answer, and highly disingenuous.

Also ot had concubines which were never condemned just saying when one digs into the bible it's not as the church says it is from what I can tell

They weren't condemned, but Christ makes it very clear that it was not the plan from the beginning. Jesus Christ is our example and He has bought His Bride with His priceless blood. He has no concubines. Do you want to go back to stoning whoremongers? If you want to live in the old testament, let me assure you, you and your wife would have been stoned to death for your sexual sin.

highlife, you are stubborn and you are set in your sin. I advise you to humble yourself before the Lord, or He will do it for you. And, if He has to humble you, it is going to be very painful.

 

[handy]

I think you're buying into a very poor interpretation of Scripture...trying to believe that the bible is only referring to temple prostitution when it speaks of fornication. No one, except you, is referring to monagomous sexual relationships as prostitution. No one else is buying it....at least I'm not.

If you haven't already done so, you should look closely at this:

Mat_19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mat_19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for temple prostitution, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

1Co_7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Co_7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid temple prostitution, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1Co_5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1Co_5:1 It is reported commonly that there is temple prostitution among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to temple prostitution, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41038&p=615694#post615694

Just reading how Digger put these texts together will show that fornication does not = prostitution. At the very least, one needs to admit there is no way Paul is condeming the Corinthian church for not sending away a man for prostitution...his sin involved being sexually involved with a woman who was married to his father.

I don't think of either you or your wife were being prostitutes prior to your marriage...but you were willfully sinning against God, especially once your spiritual leaders pointed out the sin and asked to you repent and separate until you were married, and you rebelled and said no.

You keep going back to the concubines of the OT...and the OT had divorce as well, even though the Lord condemned divorce and made it clear that it was only in Moses' law due to the sinfulness of men.

It seems as if you have no answer for the fact that biblical marriage was never merely just living together...that there were in fact legalities and social norms that differentiated marriage from mere co-habitation in both Old Testament and New. Now, since you have no answer for that, you seem bent upon throwing up this straw man regarding prostitution...

I have to concur with my brothers and sisters here...sexual sin is a stumbling block of yours and your open defiance of God's holy commandments (pointed out to you not only by us here at this forum, but I'm sure by your own pastors and spiritual leaders in your home church) is going to cause you to stumble and prevent you from living out a victorious walk with the Lord.

 

[highlife]

I probably would have been a roman officer or engineer so that's all that has to be said for that as far as being stoned. Jesus said it was not that way in the beginning last time I checked we are still not in the beginning and Jesus said he did not come to change the law so all that stuff still holds true