iLOVE
Member
Please post the scriptures that says faith works without love. Also the scriptures that say no gospel no faith. Also post the scripture that says a Believer is still a sinner when they get saved.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Salvation by Faith: The substance of our hope.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Please read my post no. 21 again.
They will not be found in your, or my, inerrant, infallible, inspired sola scriptura.
Wondering
P.S. JLB and I were discussing a concept - not a verse.
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Malachi,
Regarding your order:
No faith, No grace.
God loves everyone. He loves all His creation.
While we were still sinners, Jesus died for us.
Romans 5:8
God's grace is always falling down on everyone. How else could one ever get saved? it's God's grace that causes the stir in the person to reach for the God that is REACHING DOWN to him.
Without God's grace we can do nothing - not even come to Him to be saved.
Titus 2:11
Would you agree?
Wondering
Jim Parker
Member
AH SO!!!
I totally missed that.
Jim Parker
Member
Lots of people claim to "hear His voice" and make a good living peddling the astounding revelations that they "hear."
We have the scriptures and the apostolic witness as reliably transmitting what God in Flesh, Jesus, personally taught.
What some TV evangelist says God "told" him, not so much.
So, whenever I hear someone talking about "rhema", my baloney detector lights up.
And, I have to wonder, which of the +/- 50,000 denominations, sects, etc. "heard" it right?
Jim Parker
Member
He who has eyes let him read and pay attention to what is written in the scripture and what the Church has taught from the beginning and pay no attention to the latest wind of doctrine.
And test the spirits. If the spirit tells you something that has never been taught before, send that spirit back to hell.
Jim Parker
Member
How do you define "Grace"?
For an Orthodox view see:
https://www.academia.edu/10376998/I...dimir_s_Theological_Quarterly_58_1_2014_69-85
I forgive you.
Go in peace.
Unfortunately, the early Church didn't have the new testament, but relied upon Paul's freshly written letters.
Paul himself studied the law, and was extremely knowledgeable in what it said... and was persecuting the Church.
It wasn't until the Holy Spirit began to lead and guide him into the truth, that he was able to write what is known as the New Testament.
In addition, the Holy Spirit also orchestrated his life and was the One who sent him to the places where he raised up Churches, and inspired his writings to these Churches to become known as the scriptures, like He did with Moses.
Here's an example:
2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. Acts 13:2-4
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:26-27
JLB
One of my favorite passages:
Jeremiah 31:33-34 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Wondering
Yes, which was demonstrated for us as an example, when Jesus asked His disciples the question....
Who do you say that I Am?
The foundation of the Church that is victorious over the gates of hell and the works of the devil, is that they hear The Voice of God, whereby God reveals who Christ of is to them.
Any unsaved person can read the bible and have head knowledge about Jesus, but revelatory understanding with faith, comes by hearing God.
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it
Matthew 16:16-18
This is the mark of a new covenant believer.... That they know God, and are taught by God Himself.
They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, Jeremiah 31:34
And again
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. John 6:45
Jesus said it this way -
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
John 5:39-40
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
The writings of the early church fathers are packed with quotations from the "memoirs of the apostles" (Gospels) and their letters. So while they didn't have a document called "The New Testament", they did have the individual writings which make up the NT.
They also had the oral teaching of the apostles as all the bishops (overseers, "senior" elders) had been taught by the apostles or a disciple of an apostle like Timothy or Titus.
2TH 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2TI 1:13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
2TI 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
1JN 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life………..3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
(Mostly NIV)
By the time they were dealing with Arius' heresy in the 4th century, there was enough of a consensus of what was scripture and what was not that the attendees of the Council of Nicaea were able to agree upon the canon of the New Testament which we have today.
It is of note that the teaching of Christianity was quite uniform by the beginning of the 2nd century and had spread from north-western Europe to India by that time. One of the tests of Arius' teaching at Nicaea was whether it agreed with what was taught "everywhere and at all times."
iakov the fool
Jim Parker
Member
1TI 3:14 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
According to Paul, the church is the pillar and foundation of faith, NOT just the scriptures and certainly NOT what any one individual "hears" God tell him. Faithful men were specifically selected and placed in the church for the purpose of preaching and teaching the word and bringing the saints to maturity (Eph 4:11-15) They taught what they had received from the apostles who, in turn, had received it from Jesus Christ. ( 2TI 2:2 )
The "hearing" by which faith comes and to which Paul refers ( RO 10:17 ) is the preaching of the word by the apostles or by those who have been entrusted to preach and teach the word by the the 5-fold leadership of the Church.
There is a term for the believer who eagerly seeks and readily accepts what he believes he personally "hears" from God; that term is; "loose cannon." Today we are subjected to a constant barrage of conflicting messages from the thousands of denominational descendants of previous generations of such loose cannons. (...and the caissons, filled with conflicting dogma, go rolling along...)
That is why I have gone back to the writings of the church from the time long before the commencement of the "What the Holy Ghost told me" barrage, to the time of the 7 great councils, the first 8 centuries of Christianity, before the church began to divide itself against itself.
anyway, that's my 2 kopecks (which won't get you a cup of coffee...)
iakov the fool
When I became born of the spirit, I heard from God.
God spoke to me. Not in an audible voice, but I was certain
it was Him.
I had heard scripture all my life. But now Jesus became a real person who told me
what I needed to know.
I didn't get to doing any bible study for years, but by the time I got there, I already new
a lot of what was being taught - and this by the Holy Spirit.
Just to restate, from a personal point of view, everything you state above and how God speaks to us personally.
Wondering
- Nowhere in the scriptures does it say the Church is the foundation of faith.
The Rhema spoken word of God is how faith comes.
Faith doesn't come by the scriptures, for if it did Saul of Tarsus would never have persecuted the church and Jesus would have never of said these words...
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40
Faith only comes by hearing God.
Once we have received the faith that comes by hearing, it is up to us to do what we hear, so that the faith we have from hearing won't be dead faith.
JLB
That would make eternal life contingent upon having such scriptures or letters.
There are countless multitudes in third world countries that have heard the gospel and were saved, but can't read.
Most of the New Testament Churches were started and flourished, yet had no scriptures.
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
Jim Parker
Member
huh??? Not at all. I didn't say that people had to read the scripture to be saved.
The average person couldn't afford their own copies of scripture. The word was heard by the preaching of the apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers and pastors. Having your own copy of the scriptures wasn't feasible until after Gutenberg invented moveable type in the 16th century.